Actually Impossible To Pay For Mod Upgrading/ducat Items. Deep Explanation Within. Please Support.

[BlueSabre]

The issue: How a self-proclaimed and genuine no-life player who puts the equivalent effort of a full-time job into Warframe cannot keep up with the insane amount of grind involved in recent updates, namely Primed Mods and the Ducat system.

 

What you're all discussing: OP doesn't need to do all this, you're not supposed to be able to do all this, stop being a completionist, etc.

 

We have a man here who devotes his life to Warframe, puts in a weeks' worth of effort in a day, and who admits that the amount of grind is too much for him. Instead of stopping and realizing the grindy path that Warframe is headed in, what are you guys doing? Bagging on the OP for spending so much time in Warframe.

 

It is because he spends so much time in Warframe trying to grind out these mods that makes this issue so pressing. If OP, in all his arguably wasted dedication and effort cannot keep up with the grind that is being introduced in the game, what does that mean for the rest of us? This isn't even something that pumping copious amounts of real-world money can solve, because the market is being drained of all its fusion cores and credits as people try to max out these mods.

 

Realistically, these mods are supposed to take months to max, each. Months of having your credit and fusion core reserves drained for the sake of a single mod. Mods that are introduced every few weeks, each one providing several more months of grind.

 

Stop it with the class-war and look at the big picture; is this what you all want? You're okay with having this much senseless grind in the game simply because you're not supposed to get it done right away? The arguments against completionists are just as weak as the arguments for completionists.

I'm just going to upvote and quote this so that more people can see it.

[Drasiel]

First, Thank you so much for doing the math for us. While myself and a handful of other veteran players have felt that this is the case (and has been slowly building towards this unsustainable point for a while) we did not have any hard figures done up to support it.

 

Second I agree wholeheartedly with your presentation. I personally have already reached the point where I simply cannot put in any more effort to bang my head against the rising price wall (which only serves to reinforce the onerous feelings of overgrind and burnout caused by other issues). Knowing the void trader is coming every 2 weeks and having exhausted any desire to grind for yet more keys, then grind said keys, only to realise I have to dedicate the same amount of time, or more than, a full time job daily to be able to acquire his items just makes me "NOPE" right out of even playing warframe.

 

When this is added to my frustration with syndicate changes and levelling rank 0 frame, it actually pushes me into feeling slightly hostile towards the game itself.

[Lokime]

The easiest solution for me is that.... every two weeks, he brings all the content he had brought till today.... think about it.

[NocturneOfSolace]

Void Trader goods are rare. They're expensive, and they have a certain weight to them that other goods don't. Don't try to get everything, save up your money and learn to spend it.

 

That said, the goods are also ridiculously expensive at times. 600 ducats is a lot for a weapon, considering how much time goes into farming that many parts for that many ducats.

Did you read what he said? He wasn't able to max 1 primed mod after four months of saving up his money with a near constant cred booster

when it takes that long, coupled with costs of buying the trader stuff, that's simply unsustainable

Edited February 20, 2015 by NocturneOfSolace

[(PSN)killerbunny53]

Void trader isn't even on ps4 and i'm already extemely worried about this... I'm more worried about getting the mods now and farming ducat becausei know maxing will be literally impossible... I'll just buy all of them and leave them unranked until this whole ridiculous prices and fusion core drop rate nerf thing gets fixed for real

[kitsu]

I have to agree with most of what OP has stated. The pricing of ducats for the void trader's goods have been going up. It used to take 700-800 to buy everything he had, now it is upwards of 1200 for one of everything he has, not counting duplicates. As for the fusion core drought, DE should just raise the drop rates for all the other types of fusion cores out there. How often has anyone seen any fusion cores that was not a common rank 3, uncommon rank 5, or rare rank 5.

 

As for collecting prime parts and the keys, here is an interesting tidbit for you all...

Farm T1 Def to get the following keys and loot:

T1 Capture, T2 Capture, T2 defense, rare 5 fusion cores, and prime parts (including hikou part, which sells for 20 ducats)

Then just run through all the T1 + T2 Captures to get the following loot:

T1 Def, prime parts (including hikou part, which sells for 50 ducats)

And then jsut rinse and repeat!

A skilled and fast tenno can finish any capture in under 5 mins, the best in under a min. So 20 of any T1-T4 capture keys can be done in roughly 30-20 mins.

 

As for PVP, I'd like to point something out that has come to my attention recently.

If an alliance is attacking another(Orion solar rail), all the tenno needs to do, for those that do not support Orion, is simply fight for Orion and loose their battles.

Dark sector is broken and only about to break even more...

PVP is broken and adding PVP mods WILL NOT help it. Damage 2.0 broke PVP.

Edited February 20, 2015 by kitsu

[Maou]

I have to agree on everything the op posted, its just outragously expensive to keep up with the void traders prices, especially since they nerfed the ducat value of almost all prime items.

 

honestly its just frustrating.

I sometimes just wish the trader never came to light if it was going to be like this.

[CherryRammer]

@(*()$ love this community :D

[Jax_Cavalera]

PvP in Warframe is a joke. it's going to continue being a joke atLEAST until the dedicated PvP department actually balances it. that's going to take a considerable amount of time, to rebalance the entire game.

in the meantime, which is the foreseeable future, it's not applicable. Toxin Damage backed up with Magnetic or Radiation is already a one shot win. everything else in PvP is superfluous because of that.

Event Scores are just a joke. there's always, and i mean ALWAYS, community drama about Event Scores because there's always some people that are cheating. every single time.

competitive Event Scores are only worth your time if you close your eyes and pretend that some of the things that are happening aren't happening.

yes, so you can make this or that Ability more powerful. kay.

that's nice. you clearly could play the game before.

that's a nice definition of what's Superfluous or not. it clashes with something though.

exactly that is what i am talking about. for customization and having possibilities for Playstyles, Primed Mods are Superfluous.

we have them, but don't need them by any means.

therefore they are not an intrinsic self throat slit over. the things these Mods create are not necessary, and really we don't have anything in the game that places their purpose for existing in the first place. not the stats, atleast. the continued carrot on a stick for those that need it however, by all means.

there's a clearly outlined two steps to these Mods.

acquiring them, and upgrading them.

step one is the only one that you're even remotely time crunched on. you could always just wait a while if you don't have time. otherwise, playing the Game will most certainly allow you to afford them. if one Mission Type is starting to become dull, change it up, do some different Mission Types. change up your Equipment. Et Cetera.

it doesn't really matter if you take some time to complete step two. there isn't any sort of time crunch, you can just play the game and completing step two will come for the ride.

 

So you are saying that because PvP right now is broken already.. giving players even more of an advantage over each other by using these mods.. is of no use?  Well it is of use.. it's the difference between earning more credits if there is a reward battle pay going at the time.

 

So because clans can get exclusive things like Primed Chamber from a comp running by having the primed version of mods.. this is some how irrelevant why?  We are talking about items in game that lets one player gain something another will not get..that makes having each and every possible mod, prime weapon, mastery rank fodder item etc. critical if you wish to be the best and win those comps.

 

A mad skill player with a musket isn't going to do well against a guy armed with a tank.. overkill is what it is and it really can help a less skilled player perform better than a better skilled player with worse gear.

 

What you are saying about superfluous is contradictory :

 

you >  Primed mods are not needed by any means to improve or create a specific warframe build

 

fact >  Primed Continuity enables Loki to remain invisible longer than regular Continuity which means.. if you are building a long invisiblity Loki, there are times where it is important and more rewarding to be invisible for a longer duration as it lets you gain back the energy it cost to cast the ability.  Regular Continuity does not allow a player to do this as effectively as its primed counter-part.

 

fact>  Mag without Primed Flow can not Energy Tank using Quick Thinking effectively.. Mag WITH Primed Flow Can.  This opens up new build opportunities previously not feasible so clearly they are needed if you wish to expand your play styles and find the most advantageous build for a particular frame.

 

 

Regarding the time frame and 2 step process, you are partially correct it is a 2 step process and the 2nd part of the process is LESS critical than actually getting them.

 

It is also pointed out that to USE the mods you acquire you need enough time to raise additional funds to afford the fusion costs.  THIS is not possible as has been outlined.

 

 

 

All that being said and done, (debunking etc..) it is my personal experience that I can mint around 5 r5 Fusion Cores every 20 minutes of gameplay sometimes I get 10 and sometimes I get NONE but on average sure.. provided my supply of T4 Keys don't run out.. I have access to this level of income.

 

At that rate it takes how man 20 minute blocks to earn 500 r5 cores approximately?  33.333 Hours  and would consume 100 tower keys in the process based on claiming at the 20 minute mark each time.

 

That is a fairly alarming rate of consumption by even the most modest standards and does not factor in time taken to even try to get a T4 key

 

As for credits.. well I think that's a bit different.  If you run Uranus UR with excalibur or an AoE frame built for range and dmg .. (using Primed Flow)  this part is critical and yes .. this is what I was talking about earlier.. it makes a difference)  you are able to trash the full 5 waves in about 2 to 3 minutes tops consuming maybe 2 energy plates in the process.  This earns just under 14k credits per hit but of cause you can't be doing this AND T4 missions at the same time soooo add to that 33.33 hours per 2 weeks to max just 1 mod another 3 minutes x what 1000 runs of that level and this brings your credits up to 1.4mill 

 

aka 50 hours of gameplay so in 2 weeks if you wish to have the funds and cores to max out 1 of the (usually 2 mods the trader sells) that's 50+33.33 hours = 83.3 hours per 2 weeks or 41.65 hours per week.  Even a normal day job doesn't demand this much from a human.

 

This does NOT include raising the 800k credits minimum to buy the actual mods either which would of cause bot that timeframe beyond what is physically possible without serious serious health concerns being raised.

 

 

So I guess I was trying to say getting the credits isn't that bad but man .. looking at the numbers it's pretty $#$% bad.. I can't believe it would actually take this much time playing the game to get those results.. but it does explain why I still only have 1 or 2 mods maxed out of the ton I have stored away.

 

It just seems like too much of a demand on players in the current state.  The only players that can achieve this are Macro Farmers and in all honesty.. to have a life and play this game.. it's looking like the only ones that will be doing both are those that are machines or.. use a machine to play for them...the very issue DE added anti-afk in to prevent but how can a script prevent players from also using scripts to circumvent them?  it's flawed fighting fire with fire.. remove the need for macro farmers and the problem goes away instantly.

 

Which is what Tactic Selections was all about in the first place : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/383582-tactic-selections-putting-a-stop-to-macro-farming-rng-and-grind-walls/?hl=%20tactic%20%20selection

[taiiat]

-snip-

the reason why your numbers seems like too much to you, is because you've decided that you have to play this or that for this or that.

which is funny, because i don't play that crap, i don't touch Dark Sectors because i respect myself, i don't spend night and day playing TIV Survival or any other popular Fusion Core Missions - yet, who'd've thunk, mostly random Missions ends up doing a pretty good job of supplying me with everything.

so because i am very well capable of earning enough Credits to buy Mods, a Weapon if there is one, and then upgrade them, without running out of anything, sounds like an almost certainty of being [people] forgetting parts of what they're earning in tallies, and a possibility of whatever people consider to be Meta to actually not be so Meta.

if i had to guess, Warframe occupies ~15-25 Hours of my time per week. i'm sure some bits of what i'm remembering includes times when i'm actually AFK (because AFKfarming is for turds :) ), times when it's minimized while i check Forums, do research, Et Cetera.

i'm 99.9% sure that people are omitting some parts of what they're doing that comes along for the ride and such either deliberately or by mistake, but either way, still missing some parts of the calculation that are there, but people would wish to ignore because their idea of Warframe is Recruiting an Interception group, and playing for 20 minutes, then telling people elsewhere on the Internet that they play Warframe.

Edited February 20, 2015 by taiiat

[V0LK]

Gotta love this community!

 

OP is making a really good points, dissecting what's wrong with a grindwall we end up with, and community is like "nuh, just grind more" or "nuh just don't buy".

[Davoodoo]

-snip-

I agree that primed mods are superflous from game standpoint, they serve no practical role since our gear is already way too powerful.

 

However this is online gaming and viable=most optimal, meaning that after being added primed mods made all other mods obsolete and everyone who doesnt have them is put on huge disadvantage and at this point, players actually find need for them.

[Hatzeputt]

 

Gotta love this community!

 

OP is making a really good points, dissecting what's wrong with a grindwall we end up with, and community is like "nuh, just grind more" or "nuh just don't buy".

 

Well the op strifes to gain everything and max everything, how many games (grind based MMOs) do you know that allow you to do so in just a few days or weeks? Here is a hint a grind based MMO that allows you to max everything in a minimum amount of time will not live long. I suggest to play some other games to learn what real grind really means. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Hatzeputt

[Institute-Marksman]

It really takes a huge amount of effort to get mods as Fast Deflection, Serration, Hornet Strike and the Armor mod maxed.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Institute-Marksman

[.Fire_Fly.]

I agree with OP, all i am gonna say!

[DrCrawford]

definitely agree with OP

 

also the argument about "not having to buy or max everything", ahem, then what's the point of the trader? to not buy his stuff and not max his mods?

[(PSN)RedChili69]

People and their instant gratificaion....

[(PSN)MadFaceInvasion1]

Any real player is a completionist and should get everything in the game.

What is the point in getting a game if you wont finish it?

I agree with OP, we are not animals, we have lives and even when we spend most of our time playing WF, it really does feel like we are not rewarded enough.

It is almost impossible to get everything in the game and it just make you angry and give up

[Seqan]

I haven't read through all the comments and stuff on this thread that the DE member said to chill out on, so here's my honest feedback.

 

Looking at simple maths, even if I only buy one mod every couple of cycles and actually want to use it, I'll still have to grind non-stop to max them.

 

I work full time, have a girlfriend whom I shall be marrying in the next few months, and other games I enjoy playing with her, my brother, and friends.

 

OP is correct when he says this is impossible.

 

Furthermore, DE's determination to fix the "power creep" as it is called seems to be kind of backwards with a lot of primed mods anyway. I don't know what they're going to do but it's going to be interesting to say the least if/when they redo the elemental system, for example.

 

Something needs to be done about this overall. Otherwise casual players like myself and the majority of WarFrame's population will hit this wall and either A. Lose interest or B. Get so frustrated with not being able to advance that they'll quit outright.

 

I'm already falling into category A as have most of the people I play with.

 

On the topic of "you don't need everything," well, those of you saying that are correct. We don't need anything.

 

But I do want to play end game. I need mods.

 

I do want to last longer in endless missions. I need more powerful mods.

 

The "end game" we have is the only thing that is remotely challenging to long time players. Completion is just a bonus but a lot of people still want to do it. The farther we can get with our power creep (primed mods right now) the further into the endless end game we go, and the more challenging and fun it becomes.

 

Sure. We don't need anything. But without these things we don't absolutely need, the game gets boring pretty fast.

[Onisa]

take a hint from Nightmare / Dual Stat and Corrupted Mods.

we ain't even close with those Set Types of Mods to having all of them represented in all sets.

so that isn't going to happen. i mean no offense when i say Digital Extremes doesn't have the 'attention span' to ride one thing that long.

we'll get some from Mods here and there, it'll cover the basics and some other niches, and then Digital Extremes will move on to another style of carrot on a stick.

And what hint would that be? That if the forums 'whine' for long enough DE will fix something? That DE is slowly releasing more of them?

 

We certainly got closer with the last batch though.

 

Also you do realize that the next logical step in your argument is saying DE will discontinue Baro all together, right?

Or more likely that someone will botch the coding and break him, without a reason to put in the effort to fix it 'cuz he's an old feature no one has interest in.

 

Well the op strifes to gain everything and max everything, how many games (grind based MMOs) do you know that allow you to do so in just a few days or weeks? Here is a hint a grind based MMO that allows you to max everything in a minimum amount of time will not live long. I suggest to play some other games to learn what real grind really means. 

They generally give you more than two weeks every four years though. It's usually an annual thing.

[Renegade343]

Any real player is a completionist and should get everything in the game.

That is a rather bad fallacy to support the point about being impossible to obtain Void Trader wares and levelling them up. 

 

But I do want to play end game. I need mods.

 

I do want to last longer in endless missions. I need more powerful mods.

 

The "end game" we have is the only thing that is remotely challenging to long time players. Completion is just a bonus but a lot of people still want to do it. The farther we can get with our power creep (primed mods right now) the further into the endless end game we go, and the more challenging and fun it becomes.

 

Sure. We don't need anything. But without these things we don't absolutely need, the game gets boring pretty fast.

Then I ask this question: 

 

Before Primed mods came, were you still able to go very long into Endless Missions? Not to mention that balance gets thrown out the window past Level 50, so if you state that you want to go for 80 Waves with Primed mods (in which 80 Waves is quite past normal gaming range for the game), and therefore ask for Primed mods to be easier to level up, that request will most likely not be taken in. 

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Well, there should be a way to reasonably max all good primed mods. I've maxed a ton or R10 mods, essentially all weapon, warframe and sentinel mods. Skipped blind rage because I believe it's garbage, just cast twice instead. That and magnum force - terrible. Other than that? All mentioned categories seem maxed. I do ignore kubrows (yeah, farmville/tamagochi in my PS4 games? get lost) and R10 archwing mods (god they are just BAD). And while occasionally I've played a lot (on weekends/vacations) I can't say I was too dedicated.

 

What I would definitely say is that I don't enjoy ranking mods. I love playing with maxed ones, it totally makes it worth it. I currenly can't enjoy several frames simply because duration mods are not good enough. That makes playing them feel bad and unsatisfying.

[TennoSimons]

I strongly agree with the topic creator, and appreciate him doing the math to crunch those numbers. While I can understand the "what makes you feel so entitled to own and max everything in the game" argument, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that a game should be potentially able to be completed/maxed by someone who plays 10-16 hours per day. 

 

To my mind, it is fair to say that falling so short of that standard for fusion costs, etc. qualifies as a broken economy.

 

Topic Creator has my +1.

[Monolake]

It is likely fairy accurate.

 

If we work on the basis of the 1100 ducats each round the trader appears..

- About 15 mins on average per prime piece (and idle time like load screens).  This may seem a bit high but keep in mind that would cover not only farming for the prime piece but for the key as well.  Also lets face it we have all likely done a 4 stage endless and gotten no prime piece for the effort (mine the other day was core, core, forma BP, forma BP).

Sure you can do it faster, but you can also do it much slower if RNG is spiting you.

 

So worst case is only 10 ducats per part (the only guarenteed value) thus 110 parts (potentially 100+ odd missions), thus some 1650 mins.  So about 27.5 hours, just for ducats.

- If we say 15 ducats is average return per prime piece then we are looking at about 1 ducat per minuite, or aproximatly 20 hours (18.333 to be exact).

 

 

And even longer if you consider farming for keys, or wasting time in recruiting trying to jump on others hosting

 

Problem is the Void trader stock is akin to event rewards (limited offer gear with no idea when they will return).  It is the same event every two weeks too.  DE has moved away from those heavily grindy events we had initially.

I believe this is the core problem - the items are limited-time only, thus everyone feels pressured into grinding for them or missing out entirely (for 6 months or even longer before they might reappear?)

[Nikbis]

Any real player is a completionist and should get everything in the game.

What is the point in getting a game if you wont finish it?

I can solo Lephantis, solo a T4S, encounter and beat the Stalker in 5sec, directly followed by Vor, kill him almost as fast and keep going on 'till 20min. I could do more, but what for ? No better rewards, I prefer to start a new one.

I have a pretty strong frame, a nice primary weapon and a hugh melee one that suits my play style. Don't need any other.

This is how I have finished Warframe how it is for now. Not by acquiring each and every available item in the game.

There are 2 things that keeps me in there.

I want a nice looking&powerfull kubrow. It just takes some patience untill the good one pops out of its egg.

And I'd like to upgrade mods that are part of my core frame/weapons/kubrow builds.

As a fairly new player (3 months and few days), I have not had time to gather enought R5 cores and credits for my "regular" mods before primed ones.

I like that Baro can provide Pirmed versions of existing mods. What I really, really don't like is how DE stretches the "end game" by introducing the urge of ducats and R5 cores.

Primed mods are fine.

Primed mods available only for a short time is not.

But the worst is the amazing amount of time required for this.

You have to, step by step :

1-acquire Void keys. The fastest way I've found is with standing. Witch has been nerfed twice in 20 days ! The 15.10 patch nerf (x5 standing for 3 random key down from 5 T4), and 15.13 nerf. Yep it' a nerf. Before, you could get a lil more than double of "sigil standing" by doing any other mission, now you have to spend time in it, for it only.

2-Ok, you have your keys. Then go to the woid for your credits, ducats dans R5 co... Orokin cells.

3-Well then, you still want credits and R5 cores. Dark Sector Gabii it is. My last 20 survival 5min gave me 16 R5 cores, 15 R5uncommon, and A LOT of True Punishment. I mean, the mod. How ironic xD An inside joke from DE ?

This is merely what I'm doing for 2 weeks now. But since I've saw how little R5 cores I gain, I begin to feel deeply hopeless about Warframe. Since yesterday, when I wonder if and where I should farm for R5 cores, I log off.

I know this is barely what OP said, but I had to tell it with my words.

We, or I, for sure, need counterparts, not just nerfs.

 

Edit :

I believe this is the core problem - the items are limited-time only, thus everyone feels pressured into grinding for them or missing out entirely (for 6 months or even longer before they might reappear?)

You are right. I have missed his two 1st appearences 'cuz I didn't knew he would come. And I'm using a shotgun as a primary weapon. See how I'm happy -> -_-' It kinda haunts me IG since then.

And I surely won't buy plats beacause of that.

 

 

Offtopic (or kinda, you can't take away each part of the game. This is a whole, and the OP's topic is a symptom of boring) :

I dream about a deeply infested and turned into a gigantic monster orokin/greener/corpus ship landing on any planet of the solar system, trying to turn the whole thing itself. "Attention Tenno, the plague is... Wait... What is THAT !? Tenno do... something !!"

Lephantis ? Phorid ? No more than cells amongst thousands ! Facing you on the ground, defending their hungry main body for a 30min~1 hour of a hell of a fight ! With wall running and climbing (yeah parkour + swarm), reach some high spot to kick its !, or cockpit, or turned vital thing.

THIS ! Would entertain me, keep me IG :D

...Should I post this last part somewhere else ? Does it worth it ? :o

Edited February 20, 2015 by Nikbis