Jump to content
[DE]Glen

The Casual Carousel

Recommended Posts

And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

I'm baffled actually.

 

You as a dev see the excavation (certain ones, I presume) as the ultimate lootcave that generates way more rewards than every other gamemode, comparing it to other modes like survival, defence, interception... that quite frankly, have been ruined over the course of the year, these modes not only offer lackluster rewards but are slower and can easily be done by spamming a single button for the duration of the game (and as far as I'm concerned, while nuking is prevalent in excavation, it's nowhere near as powerful as complete map wipes in other modes).

 

As a player, I see a lie, may I quote? "reduce the grind". Sounds familiar? Sure, we've got archwing defence that gives two targets to defend and offers two rewards per wave (while apparently taking twice as much time to finish while still being slow and tedious, it would've been completely unbearable if not for now nerfed Elytron and Itzal that can nuke all the spawns right away).

 

Survival, Defense, these modes are hardly worth the effort and time spent for the rewards I'm presented, but maybe I just need to be a newbie casual with the access to everything yet still really happy to even see the most common trash item?

 

Even extermination has been brutally murdered because DE's refused to change anything about affinity gain (seriously, Focus for the most part is absolutely awful a requires way too much work to get any results, again, little to no worthy reward for the effort) yet there was no problem with actually changing few minor things in the focus itself, like adding cap, buffing a handful of abilities that were changed from plain lies to upgrades that aren't even worth it (like Zenurik's efficiency "passive", one thing that's somewhat decent in Zenurik tree is actually energy overflow that might get nerfed if everyone at DE shares your mindset, as it's "way better than everything else given focus offers".)

 

I digress and vent off, but seeing how we are supposed to test the focus while being actively prevented from progressing in it makes me question DE's competence at times.

 

But hey, I'm just a tryhard player.

 

I want to ask you a question Glen, did you try to look at the stuff as a player, not a dev? Going with pubs instead of organized group of self-sufficient MR21s, changing "X is way better than everything else so X needs to be nerfed" to "everything else compared to X is absolutely awful so everything else should be buffed"? Because that "absolutely everything" that's compared to "x" has been consistently nerfed not to make it as appealing.

 

Obviously, you want to keep players playing, but at the same time 90% of the content in the game is single use and getting it N+1 time is nothing but annoying, value of the rewards doesn't increase with the effort.

 

Sure, it's just easier to nerf "one" thing that appears to be off, but the viability of modes isn't a flat line with one peak being excavation, it's a bumpy graph of valleys and hills, and if you brutally butcher excavation, people will simply migrate to another mode that results in best rewards per time spent. Then what, will everything be nerfed to the point where there are no rewards whatsoever?

 

Every time I see a change or addition to the game, I wonder: Who's this made for? What kind of a player do I need to be to actually enjoy it and consider it viable?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like this game, I've got so used to its quirks it's hard to leave it, you've got me addicted, but if such behaviour continues, I might be forced to leave. Sure, I'm just one out of few million players, but out of that millions of players there surely are people that share my opinion. I might not be full of hate as I leave, maybe regret, but the others? Not to threaten, but there might be a lot of bad PR from this.

 

I appreciate your work Glen, your attempts at making the game better, though as a player I consider your current conclusion to be fundamentally wrong, but maybe I'm just the greedy bastard that wants to get everything with no effort whatsoever.

 

tl;dr

As much as the statement that "excavation is superior to every other mode" is valid, I disagree with your solution, because as a player I consider excavation to be one of the few modes that's actually worth my time, as it is both fun and offers (or offered) decent rewards, compared to other endless modes that either are just dull in terms of gameplay, or don't offer rewards appealing enough to make it worthwhile.

 

I don't expect to get a legendary core every 20 minutes, though getting <5000 credit bundle after facing lv80 enemies is both disappointing and annoying.

 

Additionally, I would love if you were more transparent with everyone in terms of what you are doing, are going to do and/or why are you doing this, but maybe I just need to be a part of the Design Council to have access to such "sensitive" data?

Edited by Mofixil
  • Applause 1
  • Upvote 60

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

 

I am sorry to say this but if you really think that way then you must be insane, All your data is based on optimal conditions, you cant get good data by doing mission once, also you cant get good data by doing excavation with specific teams since most of time when playing with random people  you are unable to protect more then one excavator which makes mission MUCH slower, also this change made support frames unusable in excavation mission unless you do one excavator at time(since support frames cant support if team is all over the map) also this change nagativly affects getting void keys(not everyone goes to excavation missions for R5 cores you know.....) since of all the mission only excavation was giving keys at good pace, since doing other missions to get keys takes too long since the key we get depends on RNG and the reward we get from that key also depends on RNG(doing 30+ missions to get reward is NOT fun and you frequently have to do more then 30 excavation missions to get keys to be able to do void missions for rewards in the first place) and now you slowed down only mission that actually was giving keys at fair rate

Edited by Culaio
  • Upvote 33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

Original survival was fun, then it was changed to what it is now except it also got a nerf to spawns and life support
Defense used to be faster as well
Interception was never good to farm anything other than affinity
Exterminate just got fixed after being very broken for very long
Then there's things like hijacks and rescues, which nobody does, ever
In fact, aside from resource farming, nobody does any of those nodes, because they're boring, unrewarding, slow, easy, unengaging, whatever else you want to call it

People liked excavation because it was going at a pace they expected from a fast paced game.
Nerfing excavation (again) won't make players play the other modes, it will make them not play excavation.
Do we really need another reason to do nothing but void and draco all day long?

Also, do me a favor and rerun the nodes on matchmaking instead of a premade, assuming you will make it to 2k, it will be with half of the drills surviving, at best

Edited by Eyymily
  • Upvote 35

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

Excavation is the only game mode in which the reward rate scales sufficiently with the amount of effort you put into it.  It might as well be a rule.

Edited by AzureEmulation
  • Upvote 20

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of void, if it isn't for the freaking ARGON CRYSTALS, I won't ever go into any endless game modes anymore.

 

They are all slow and tedious, especially how Defense get longer and longer along with the levels and Survival only offers you clustered enemies that aren't even manageable.

 

To be honest, two of the most interesting and skill-rewarding game modes -- Spy and Excavation, are never in the void.

 

Both reward skills, the former one individual ability and the later one team cooperation, and gives suitable quantity of rewards.

 

Why not make the game more interesting the further we go/ the more effort (speaking of which is definitely not TIME) we invest?

  • Upvote 17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry but I agree with the last few posts regarding these changes. These are comments from your real playerbase, people who run with different people, players and behaviours and nodes.

I could extrapolate further but the fact is the grind has been increased and the general, non-perfect squad suffers. you are pushing your findings, a fraction of the what other squads can do, onto the entire playerbase. and the excavators have had no changes. still incredibly easy to get destroyed and a waste of reward and time.

if you think you're still correct, Glen, then I highly suggest reading the reddit. we aren't here to scream or shout, but our feedback is blunt and constructive. I've been playing since U7 so I've seen all the changes and I think there are so many other aspects of the game that needs work on rather than tweaking an already satisfactory game mode into a sad version of itself.

I'd be interested to see the results of different excavation nodes runs consisted entirely of PUGs for one of your entire streams.

Edited by angrykenji
  • Upvote 29

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And buff Defense, and buff Interception, and buff all the other game modes? No. This one is the exception.

 

If you check the stats I posted you'll see that it was already 3.5x faster -- the change made it marginally faster but it was already out of whack. 

 

In case that excavation turns in 5min (more or less) per dig site, the cryotic obtained per excavation would be the same (100)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what the "ideal reward rate" is considered over at DE HQ, but it seems that's the thing that needs tweaking the most. Like it's been said a number of times already, Excavation is the only mission type on the starchart that gives rewards at a satisfactory pace and is somewhat challenging, its even fun sometimes. take that away, and whats left?

Not much of anything, thats what.

Exterminate? It doesn't offer any interesting rewards and, well, it was recently broken over someones knee.
Sabotage? Not fun, no meaningful reward, pass.
Spy? I've run probably around 600 - 800 Spys already, the thought of doing another makes me feel physically ill.
Rescue? If specters were useful I might be interested, but without a meaningful reward its in the "Blech" catagory. Also, braindead AI gives me a headache.
Survival? Its a damn waiting simulator. Twiddle thumbs for reward.
Defense? See Survival, but add risk of failure due to enemies with runaway scaling one-shotting the pod.
Hijack? Do people even remember that mission type? No fun, no reward = no play.

Out of all the ones I care to remember, Deception is the only one left I would do for fun simply because its the only one left that I can speed through with my mobility Loki, that sense of speed in whats supposed to be a fast paced action game is really enjoyable. It's a shame the "fast paced" part doesn't pop up very often.

So, Glen, do you really want to burn the forums down again? Then leave Excavation rewards alone. Take a look at all the other missions types with lackluster rewards and pace and give them some love.

  • Upvote 29

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This conclusion is @(*()$ insane.  

  

Yes excavation is the exception because it is arguably the only game mode that is worth playing on the star map. Rest you nerfed into the @(*()$ oblivion, so its painfully inefficient to play. It's really safer for one's mental health not to play rest of starmap at all than grind something there.  

  

First, let me remind you how every primed mod requires 528 cores to max. 1.5 minutes for 25% of getting 5 cores is 6 minutes on average for 5 cores more or less reliably. Unless you, Glen, think we are farming Power Throws or cash caches there, you should realize current Excavation is already about as rewarding as survival is (6ish minutes for reward vs exactly 5 for a reward) when you consider all rewards valuable when they actually aren't.  

 

Second, do you think your one run on every node is enough samples? Well, no, its not. Tilesets are very different and you can get insanely lucky maps every once in a while. And insanely inefficient spawns can be a thing too especially now that you made it so extractors spawn half the map away from each other.  

  

Third, you are using an organized group who is capable of splitting for extractors reliably. That's not how things happen in public games. To add to that, your entire group is capable of doing damage for entire 2000 cryotic run, which is also more often than not not the case in publics.  

  

Forth, drill stats don't scale at all so teams are either forced into defense frames or tons-of-cc-frames. When a single person doesn't pick optimally, entire group suffers. Welcome to public games again.  

  

Fifth, you are encouraging us to split from each other, so importance of individual player strength grows even more. It also theoretically takes away affinity gains from ally kills for obvious reasons.  

  

I doubt you will get the amount of backlash you deserve for excavation changes, but regardless you should stop treating players as enemies.

Totally agreed on this one.

 

I'm not sure what the "ideal reward rate" is considered over at DE HQ, but it seems that's the thing that needs tweaking the most. Like it's been said a number of times already, Excavation is the only mission type on the starchart that gives rewards at a satisfactory pace and is somewhat challenging, its even fun sometimes. take that away, and whats left?

Not much of anything, thats what.

Exterminate? It doesn't offer any interesting rewards and, well, it was recently broken over someones knee.

Sabotage? Not fun, no meaningful reward, pass.

Spy? I've run probably around 600 - 800 Spys already, the thought of doing another makes me feel physically ill.

Rescue? If specters were useful I might be interested, but without a meaningful reward its in the "Blech" catagory. Also, braindead AI gives me a headache.

Survival? Its a damn waiting simulator. Twiddle thumbs for reward.

Defense? See Survival, but add risk of failure due to enemies with runaway scaling one-shotting the pod.

Hijack? Do people even remember that mission type? No fun, no reward = no play.

Out of all the ones I care to remember, Deception is the only one left I would do for fun simply because its the only one left that I can speed through with my mobility Loki, that sense of speed in whats supposed to be a fast paced action game is really enjoyable. It's a shame the "fast paced" part doesn't pop up very often.

So, Glen, do you really want to burn the forums down again? Then leave Excavation rewards alone. Take a look at all the other missions types with lackluster rewards and pace and give them some love.

Upvoted.

I don't get the logic of the change, if it is "to get the guys running other missions we must nerf the only good game mode for pubs on star map to oblivion", then it's really bad.

It reminds me of quite a recent change one online Tank/Aircraft game got: "uh oh the top tier guys have low amounts of players to fight with, lets make lower tier (which was the most popular and balanced) where 75% of tanks can't do anything to top tier guys, unless really lucky, fight together". After that I haven't been playing that game anymore.

 

Edited by Victorovich
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

please dont nerf excavation and bring the rest up to par,

like the sortie missions but apply them to all?

or maybe remove 2nd A roll and have it A, B, C, A, B, C,

make def waves faster
i was thinking something like make the 5 waves 1 big but maybe thats not possible , maybe make them 3 or 4

survival with 3-4mins per reward,

or have a switch somewhere to make it harder and faster also?

interception maybe a little boost to cap time,
and/or with the remove of the 2nd A we can have faster games

extermination
other than the spawns not on time i dont think its bad, but that bug really makes them not so wanted


 


 

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gee. I spent two weekends worth of my free time with the help of volunteers in mission and watching the stream analyzing the mode with carefully tracked records and all I got for is insults and abuse. Never change, forums. Never change. 

 

I'm going to lock this thread now -- it's not being used for the stream announcements and results it was meant for.  

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 63

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going live in on twitch.tv/DE_BadHorse in about 10 minutes. Thinking about doing a review of the ODS spawn tweaks, maybe some Europa too since we saw some sore spots last time.

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going live in on twitch.tv/DE_BadHorse in about 10 minutes. Thinking about doing a review of the ODS spawn tweaks, maybe some Europa too since we saw some sore spots last time.

yey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to everyone who came by and helped out and gratz to the people who won the giveaways! If you missed the show I hope to be back again tomorrow!

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to everyone who came by and helped out and gratz to the people who won the giveaways! If you missed the show I hope to be back again tomorrow!

 

Glad to see you again riding the carousel Glen, especially after the last one. Keep on with the testing and data gathering and have some fun while doing it of course ; )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going to stream some Shadow:Debut Endurance on twitch.tv/DE_BadHorse in about 10 minutes. Hope to see you there!

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having a Casual Carousel Forma Party at twitch.tv/DE_BadHorse in about 10 minutes.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having a Casual Carousel Forma Party at twitch.tv/DE_BadHorse in about 10 minutes.

I tried watching the video but couldn't, what does a Forma party entail?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried watching the video but couldn't, what does a Forma party entail?

 

A Forma Party is where everyone in your group polarizes a bunch of gear and you go in naked (usually with only one ranked weapon as a backup). It's great fun to play with the handicap especially when some nice horse is doing stream giveaways of Forma 5-packs after every mission!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Forma Party is where everyone in your group polarizes a bunch of gear and you go in naked (usually with only one ranked weapon as a backup). It's great fun to play with the handicap especially when some nice horse is doing stream giveaways of Forma 5-packs after every mission!

That actaully like some fun. May I ask? Is all right for randoms to join? Edited by Ibro156

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Casual Carousel Sortie Sunday at twitch.tv/DE_BadHorse in about 5 minutes.



That actaully like some fun. May I ask? Is all right for randoms to join?

 

The way I find it works best is I set to 'friends only' and people ninja the squad -- I accept almost all friend-requests!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...