Now that there's (MORE!) timetraveling, can we travel back in time and kill "Lotus"? Specters of Rails Updated

[Toppien]

7 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Ok.

 

 

 

Are your reasons based on lore (i.e. "I think that the Tenno would be more powerful if they were physically inside the Warframes, as being physically present would allow them to deploy their Void powers to far greater effect than before,") or would you rather the Tenno be inside the 'frames because that would just be cooler to you?

im more inclined for the second option, a complete union between tenno and warframe would be awesome

[Eidolon_Slayer]

4 hours ago, Toppien said:

 

KILL ALL THE SENTIENT!!

KILL NATAH!!

[--Q--uaint]

On 3/1/2016 at 7:59 PM, Drasiel said:

Because it's also very clear that the warframes themselves are alive and potentially sentient creatures.

Basically I feel that WE are the warframes. While the operator is it's own entity.

Warframes (Rhino codex) are alive, yes. It is not stated that they are Tenno. I suppose it's possible that the original Mirage and Limbo were not Tenno, but that brings to mind the question of why Lotus would care about Mirage so much.

@ being the Warframes, interesting theory, and one that I... kinda like? Pretty sure it's not what DE is going for, though.

On 3/1/2016 at 7:21 PM, motorfirebox said:

I don't think it's going to turn out to be an inconsistency. The Rhino Prime codex entry clearly (in retrospect) indicates that the Tenno are separate from the Warframes, and Rhino Prime came out before Mirage and Limbo did. The fact is, while we've learned quite a bit about the Tenno, we know basically nothing about the Warframes. It seems highly probable to me that we're eventually going to learn some information that clarifies how Mirage and Limbo could "die" even though Warframes as we currently understand them are controlled remotely.

These are fair points, but we have no indication that a Tenno can die for real through the death of their 'frame. It's possible that Tenno need Lotus to shepherd their minds back the their ships after losing all their revives, and Mirage was just too far out there, but I'd probably only be satisfied with that explanation if Mirage had invaded the Sentient's system or something.

[Toppien]

1 minute ago, RevivedEdgeLord said:

alright but you have been warned, you cant trust natah, the false prophet

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/1/2016 at 7:22 PM, Neofaucheur said:

I can't see where DE ever suggested that Tenno was actually inside the frames. Not as they are at least.

 

This was the standard. Cant really believe people are now acting like this was a strange idea. 

The whole population of the gaming audience discussing what frames and tenno are followed one idea.

Quote

The Lotus actually chose to save the Tenno by not follow her father's orders and by hiding them inside the void and out of his reach. If you didn't saw that you missed some important point somewhere.
And aside from the purely morale and ethic issue if we kill her we would have to face at least the Sentients (if not Hunhow, which death is not yet a fact, another will take his place) and the Stalker, and that without any strong backup and intels provided by the Lotus. With that line of thought you should actually try to join the Acolytes of the Stalker and side with him.

What ethics issue? She is a spy. And were do you get the idea that the Tenno cannot defeat the Sentients w/o "Lotus".

 

On 3/1/2016 at 8:02 PM, Attley said:

Fixed. The game has always heavily implied that you aren't inside the Warframe, the fact that people want to pretend to be in a pretend spacesuit rather than pretend to be in a pretend ship controlling a pretend spacesuit is inconsequential.

Seriously, every discussion on the board was what we where inside the frame. Snails, deformed things, kids, etc.

Because at every turn Warframes were described as something you put on.

On 3/1/2016 at 8:07 PM, Archeyef said:

They asked a direct question. I'm not discussing you, I'm just saying that this is something you do regularly. I bear no ill will toward you for it, though I do strongly disagree.

No, the person asked a general question, "why do people..." You turned it into personal thing when there was no reason to.

Now then, the topic. I don't really think there's any point in wanting to kill the lotus. Killing her leaves the Orokin in control, because she did not carry out her mission to eliminate the ruling class and destabilize the enemy.

Why would the Tenno not kill the Orokin without her there?

The Tenno can still kill them.

Her attitude toward the Tenno is entirely irrelevant, because if we went back and killed her the gameworld would be entirely different. Her mission was one of desperation, the Sentient were losing, and they had to act fast. Lotus was their operative for that mission. She did not FULLY carry out her mission, but if it were not for her the Orokin would still be in power.

I dont see what is the bad part.

They can create a new stories and such.

Whatever your opinions, that is a solid fact. Lotus's actions are what destroyed the Orokin empire. The same empire that was keeping everyone, including the player characters, under their heel. Killing Lotus before she carries out the part of her mission that succeeded would completely alter the gameworld. This is one of those times where gameplay and lore mingle. It is not feasible to attempt it, there are far too many things that would need to be changed.

You just created a false idea on how stuff would need to happen. The tenno can still go on with their rebellion witout "lotus."

Quote

Yes but what you would like to have would directly infringe on what others would like to have. Too many others. This isn't a singleplayer game, killing the lotus kills the lotus for everyone.

Yes, a developing story builds on stuff and some times some folks dont like the parts.

Like when they turned tenno into gamer kids chilling in ships.

 

On 3/1/2016 at 8:08 PM, CriticalFumble said:

You could argue that the fact that the writer wrote a story a given way legitimizes its existence. 

You also could use that to argument to say that Twilight was a good love story. 

Point being - ego is not a replacement for good writing.  You can draw from peoples' messianic complexes and have them sort everything out for the better (while also being pointlessly vindictive to add in some more ego messaging and ignore any possible consequences).  But then you have Mary Sue vs. The Strawman Menace, which is scrub tier paperback fiction collecting dust in the bargain bin in Wall-Mart on a good day.   Or you have finite characters making the best of a bad situation dealing with issues they can't just brush aside.  Which makes for a much more compelling story - even DC realizes this, why do you think they nerfed Super Man? 

What? It's a fictional story. They can turn it into whatever they want. They arent locked into anything at all.

[Kontrollo]

On 1.3.2016 at 1:52 AM, Mak_Gohae said:

Never said anything about a time machine.

But if some one can use the time pockets now being introduced in the game, yes, this will become a new weapon all factions will fight over.

No, you didn't, but you implied you want one. You want a time machine to go back in time to kill the Lotus. And you think those new Spy vaults - yes let's call them "time-pockets" - are your way into the past. But you'll see they aren't, you won't be able to change the past like you want.

 

On 1.3.2016 at 2:19 AM, Marksman said:

I doubt it's time travel, it just sounds as if it's an easier way to explain that you're going to preserved orokin areas in the void.

At least that's how they made it sound on the last devstream o_O

It's not really time travel.

[motorfirebox]

44 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This was the standard. Cant really believe people are now acting like this was a strange idea. 

The whole population of the gaming audience discussing what frames and tenno are followed one idea.

Yes, there was a long period where players assumed that the Tenno were inside the Warframes.

[folklore504]

55 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

-snip
 

Why would the Tenno not kill the Orokin without her there?

The Tenno can still kill them.

Between the codex entry on the Stalker, and the Natah quest imply heavily that the Lotus is responsible for leading the Tenno into assassinating the leadership of the Orokin. 

Off topic was the train you used for that one picture from the Madness returns?

[Archeyef]

38 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

No, the person asked a general question, "why do people..." You turned it into personal thing when there was no reason to.

Why would the Tenno not kill the Orokin without her there?

The Tenno can still kill them.

I dont see what is the bad part.

They can create a new stories and such.

You just created a false idea on how stuff would need to happen. The tenno can still go on with their rebellion witout "lotus."

Yes, a developing story builds on stuff and some times some folks dont like the parts.

Like when they turned tenno into gamer kids chilling in ships.

 

Personal, perhaps. Not derogatory, though. It's just how you are, and what you do. You don't like the Lotus, you want to kill her, and you ask the devs to let you do it often. Don't be so defensive about it, I don't have anything against you for it. I just disagree.

I didn't say they couldn't. But killing off Lotus would necessitate, going from your other arguments, changing the story to reach the same situation as we have, or a very close one, without Lotus. It's an exercise in futility. Which brings me to the next few points:

They can create new stories, but why should they? You are saying that they should let you (and anyone else that wants to) kill Lotus. You are arguing that they should then allow people to choose to remain with the current story or pick the new story.

What you're asking for isn't a changing story. You're suggesting that they should maintain multiple, parallel, standalone gameworlds simultaneously. What happens when people of different timelines enter the same lobby? Is everything the same? Is the only difference the lack of Lotus on some players screens? Why this particular story change, then? Why not suggest the option to just join a different faction, rather than weave this entirely new story that has to be developed alongside the original one, which will in turn stretch DE's resources?

Do they need to maintain isolated versions of the game, so that people of different timelines don't meet?

Your opinion seems to be the minority, and you are asking for changes that would have effects on everyone and would also probably necessitate DE spending more resources for, frankly, very minor personal preferences, and very little if any gain for the company.

[Vaxillian]

Paradox alert!

If we go back in time to kill the Lotus none of this would have ever happened and we wouldn't have gone back to kill the Lotus. 

Sometimes there a some laws of time you just can't change.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

8 hours ago, Toppien said:

im more inclined for the second option, a complete union between tenno and warframe would be awesome

Got to be careful though. The thing about their current condition is that it is tragic, crippling; they are force to live lives through a proxy. That is thier flaw, get rid of that and you've basically got the basic super-powered Mary Sue.

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Because at every turn Warframes were described as something you put on.

They left if vague enough that people could speculate. They used wordplay to leave their options open while they decided on what to make them. IMO I think DE might have started to figure out what they wanted the Tenno to be around the ember prime story.

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

They can create a new stories and such.

Kind of unnecessary.... And stupid. They've still got so many other stories tell and questions that haven't been answered. They just started adding some real characterization to the cast. Changing history on that scale basically just wipes that all away. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[FieserMoep]

On 2/29/2016 at 0:04 AM, BornWithTeeth said:

A terrifying number of people, especially in nerdy circles, really don't seem to get that Empire is a bad idea which causes massive suffering and oppression, no matter how many different times and places it gets tried.

There are more Democracies or "States" that have failed than Empires.
They are just the most prominent and do not even really lead in terms of oppression or suffering either if you put their geographical size and their population into relation.
In fact there are much more blood thirsty conflicts and acts of oppression between simple tribes.

The rise and decline of a system is just a natural occurrence.and given so far Empires have shown some of the most stable societies in history.

[helix.hex]

i think the lotus is doing the "evil mother" thing. acting sweet and inocent while planning to use us to take over the orgin system and the tau.......we know WE can survive the void and probably the trip there so who is to say we couldnt in time take over the tau system with a little time?

 

never trust nothing you cant put a bullet, knife, 4 power, and/or rhino boot into.

[BornWithTeeth]

5 hours ago, FieserMoep said:

There are more Democracies or "States" that have failed than Empires.
They are just the most prominent and do not even really lead in terms of oppression or suffering either if you put their geographical size and their population into relation.
In fact there are much more blood thirsty conflicts and acts of oppression between simple tribes.

The rise and decline of a system is just a natural occurrence.and given so far Empires have shown some of the most stable societies in history.

Empires tend to create zones of permanent bloodshed around their borders, while they have a mixed record of either protecting ethnic minorities within those borders (yay!), or annihilating them (OMG stop!).

 

 

 

 

Also, Mak_Gohae, I'm not sure why it is that you want to discuss or debate the game's lore if your response to people pointing out things which won't work is effectively "Lol they can just change the story".

Edited March 2, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[Littlerift]

10 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This was the standard. Cant really believe people are now acting like this was a strange idea. 

 

Seriously, every discussion on the board was what we where inside the frame. Snails, deformed things, kids, etc.

Because at every turn Warframes were described as something you put on.

 

Every current discussion we have regarding Warframes assumes that inside the Warframe is some kind of Infested creature, but I'm willing to bet that that's wrong.
 

And as far as I can recall the only explicit implication that the Warframes are suits is back from the closed beta and very early open beta, and at that point there was practically no lore whatsoever beyond a incredibly basic outline sketch. Also, I don't think that it's ever stated that the Warframes are worn buy Tenno, just that they are exoskeletons - all of which is true. However, I don't think DE had planned this all from the start, and so changes happen. However, it's still the case that we had always been assuming that the Tenno was inside the Warframe. Yes it was the logical conclusion of what we heard, but was still an assumption. Although personally I wouldn't care that much if DE had retconned the whole thing out in the open: the Operator idea simply makes more sense with both the lore and the mechanics of the game.

 

As you stated later in your post, 'They [DE] can turn it [the story] into whatever they want', and yet now you're all pissy because DE did exactly that? This is the irony that's always found in people who want creators to change their stories, it was the same with Mass Effect 3: a large, vocal group of people who on the one hand shout that the writer needs to change X part of their story while on the other they declare that such a change is necessary because the rest of the story is immutable and X part, in their eyes, doesn't fit.

[Drasiel]

13 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Warframes (Rhino codex) are alive, yes. It is not stated that they are Tenno. I suppose it's possible that the original Mirage and Limbo were not Tenno, but that brings to mind the question of why Lotus would care about Mirage so much.

@ being the Warframes, interesting theory, and one that I... kinda like? Pretty sure it's not what DE is going for, though.

These are fair points, but we have no indication that a Tenno can die for real through the death of their 'frame. It's possible that Tenno need Lotus to shepherd their minds back the their ships after losing all their revives, and Mirage was just too far out there, but I'd probably only be satisfied with that explanation if Mirage had invaded the Sentient's system or something.

I feel like the lotus might care about both of us. We basically have an almost symbiotic or mutualistic interaction between the warframes and operator. Even if you only view the warframes as something like a hand or tool, it still really sucks to loose your best hammer. Also I can imagine you'd end up with a pretty strange relationship with that hammer if it could move and think on it's own.

The idea of us being the warframes may not be what DE is going for, but it's a fun idea and the one I think I will personally choose to believe unless it's ever confirmed or denied.

 

20 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

What does actual events have to do with fictional ones?

Please, you think these people that have retcon several things for 3 years kept on suggesting you wear the frame covering up the kids? Come on, Sheldon would've spoiled it a long time ago.

<snip>

Life mimics fiction, fiction mimics life. Both can be used as a guide for the paths of each other.

Well they managed to keep archwing a secret even though there was a hint about it in the mag prime codex entry. That was there for a nearly a year before archwing was introduced. So yes, I do believe they are capable of keeping secrets and that sheldon's "spoilers" are more an act than anything else.

 

On 3/1/2016 at 3:37 AM, BornWithTeeth said:

Hmmm. I can see that a fair few players identify more with the arsenal of Warframes than with the Operator, but I really don't agree that it should be the default conclusion. We control the Operator. The only real RPG-styled conversation we ever have is with the Lotus, and we are the Operator during it, not the Warframe.

 

An analogy I've used before....doing the Second Dream quest and then saying that the Operator isn't the player character is like watching The Matrix and insisting that Neo (whiled jacked in) and Neo (while plugged out) are literally two different, separate characters who just happen to be played by the same actor.

 

Oh I'm not saying it's the default conclusion I'm just saying it's my conclusion. At this point its a conclusion one can have without too much evidence making it implausible. I look at the operator more as the "character" of a story driven narrative. That is the character I play, but it is not me. The warframe is like your "avatar" in a D&D game. They are the you that you have made for the game; All your chosen personality traits and preferences.The warframe is me. So I guess I play them both but while the operator is it's own character, the warframe is my character. If that makes more sense to you?

[DeathMavrik]

22 hours ago, folklore504 said:

For once servants of the Corpse God, we have mutual interest in protecting the Lotus.  Grandfather nurgle would be quite sad if the lotus died. 

Heretical chaos lapdog of nurgle agreeing with a man of the imperium?????? 

I would gladly rejoice in jolly cooperation if I wasn't DROWNING IN YOUR HERESY!!!!

MAY LORD DRAIGO CUT HIS NAME ONTO TO YOUR GODS HEART SO ALL MAY KNOW WHO ARE TURELY RIGHTEOUS!

But as a show of mutual respect for mother lotus I shall respect your aligning with mother dearest 

[DeathMavrik]

13 hours ago, Toppien said:

alright but you have been warned, you cant trust natah, the false prophet

Did someone just say HERESY?!

UH-OHHHH

SMASH IT 

[Shinigami_Greed]

You know, the more people try to pull the evil Lotus card, the more the Devs laugh at those people, and don't do that.

And thank god they have the sense not to.  I don't need a piss poor plot twist like that.

[Hypernaut1]

And this is how we get evil Tenno. There will always be a few with twisted ideals that what to see things burn.

 

Would actually make good plot turn. 

[firelordzx5]

I believe the OP wants to join the stalker too.

Seriously, You don't like the Second Dream? deal with it with the rest of minority, this is what we have and this is what you get for the rest of this game. DE won't change this and never will.

If you don't like it you're pretty pissy about it, then play another game, simply done, this is the way DE wanted and will remain like that you just assume all of that.

 

DE never hinted that the Tenno were inside the warframe but hinted that something was inside instead, we just assumed that it was the Tenno all along but everything was vagued so DE could still have freedom and creativity to pull the "reveal" later and now we have a plot twist, we never saw this coming, sure we knew that we were experimented children survivors of a accident but we never thought they would remain as children and they were controlling the warframe, no, scratch that. they were dreaming that they were the warframe all along.

The Tenno never saw this coming.

 

I like the Second Dream it was great twist but it also has a tragic turn, the tenno were and are still children physically (for their mental age, they must be ancient) this make us wonder, how monstrous and amoral were the Orokin to do that to just kids? sure they were in war but weaponizing them and using them as mere weapons of war and looking at the Grineer and Corpus lore, they were destined to remain as slaves for the Orokin if they never betrayed them.

it's also hinted that the Lotus was key part for the Tenno's slaughter on the orokin, without the lotus, they would remain slave, look at the stalker, he is a lost cause attempting to avange a dead oppressive empire of thousands of years past

We don't know what it's inside of the warframe still, we don't know if it was the lotus controlling it to save the operator or it was it's doing, the idea of the warframe still being suits of something is still on.

Just because you didn't liked it because it's no awesome in your eyes or to kill the lotus because it's annoying or it's a spy or for whatever reason you believe.

Then this game isn't longer for you.

[Littlerift]

17 minutes ago, firelordzx5 said:

I believe the OP wants to join the stalker too.

Seriously, You don't like the Second Dream? deal with it with the rest of minority, this is what we have and this is what you get for the rest of this game. DE won't change this and never will.

If you don't like it you're pretty pissy about it, then play another game, simply done, this is the way DE wanted and will remain like that you just assume all of that.

 

DE never hinted that the Tenno were inside the warframe but hinted that something was inside instead, we just assumed that it was the Tenno all along but everything was vagued so DE could still have freedom and creativity to pull the "reveal" later and now we have a plot twist, we never saw this coming, sure we knew that we were experimented children survivors of a accident but we never thought they would remain as children and they were controlling the warframe, no, scratch that. they were dreaming that they were the warframe all along.

The Tenno never saw this coming.

 

I like the Second Dream it was great twist but it also has a tragic turn, the tenno were and are still children physically (for their mental age, they must be ancient) this make us wonder, how monstrous and amoral were the Orokin to do that to just kids? sure they were in war but weaponizing them and using them as mere weapons of war and looking at the Grineer and Corpus lore, they were destined to remain as slaves for the Orokin if they never betrayed them.

it's also hinted that the Lotus was key part for the Tenno's slaughter on the orokin, without the lotus, they would remain slave, look at the stalker, he is a lost cause attempting to avange a dead oppressive empire of thousands of years past

We don't know what it's inside of the warframe still, we don't know if it was the lotus controlling it to save the operator or it was it's doing, the idea of the warframe still being suits of something is still on.

Just because you didn't liked it because it's no awesome in your eyes or to kill the lotus because it's annoying or it's a spy or for whatever reason you believe.

Then this game isn't longer for you.

Basically all of this. The reveal of the truth behind the Operators turned the Tenno from Mary-Sue superwarriors who can do no evil into an interesting and tragic group of children, experimented on and manipulated into martial service by an uncaring, all powerful empire.

I'm personally not convinced that what is actually inside the Warframe is just an Infested mass, and I've always been partial to the idea that the Orokin were evil enough to try to recreate what happened of the Zaramin, but the second experiment didn't work quite as well, and so while the second batch of children couldn't use Void powers they could channel them. Encase these in the Warframes and boom. Of course, that's all a complete guess, but it's what I'd like to see. 

[CriticalFumble]

14 minutes ago, Attley said:

Basically all of this. The reveal of the truth behind the Operators turned the Tenno from Mary-Sue superwarriors who can do no evil into an interesting and tragic group of children, experimented on and manipulated into martial service by an uncaring, all powerful empire.

I'm personally not convinced that what is actually inside the Warframe is just an Infested mass, and I've always been partial to the idea that the Orokin were evil enough to try to recreate what happened of the Zaramin, but the second experiment didn't work quite as well, and so while the second batch of children couldn't use Void powers they could channel them. Encase these in the Warframes and boom. Of course, that's all a complete guess, but it's what I'd like to see. 

Wouldn't follow.  How would we not notice, and much less be willing to, dunking random people into void energy to make another warframe?  

Its also apparent that they're not actually infested like the normal space zombies, seeing as Alad V had to actually work to infest Mesa.  At the same time they're apparently capable of some degree of autonomous action, as seen in Chroma and Second Dream.  So I would agree that there's more to it than convieniently domesticable space monsters. 

[Zarozian]

17 hours ago, RevivedEdgeLord said:

What a masochist.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/1/2016 at 8:15 PM, GordoFreeman said:

Basically if we go back in time (and we cant, read some of the posts above) and kill the lotus, we are not saved, so there is no one to go back in time to kill the lotus, so lotus lives, so we are saved and alive in the present, and you can loop all the times you want.

Other plausible scenario involves multiple realities (killing the lotus creates a different reality where she is dead in parallel with the auto corrected one i explained above)

Quoting Vay Hek: Did you really believe it would be this easy?!

"Lotus" saved no one. "Lotus" hid the tenno cause she wanted babies.

The tenno with their drone won the war against the Sentients.

The new story is simple. Some tenno go back and inform past time tenno of hunhow and that "lotus" is a sentient.

Everything plays out the same except when the tenno kill the orokin they also turn their swords on "lotus", they kill her while and then they go hunting for hunhow and kill him.

Then the clan dispense jobs and everything now develops naturally.

Oh, and we find out we are kids and develop tenno inside the wardrone technologies.

Now, for the people that want to play gamer kids hanging out in their space rooms eating orokitos and void dew, yeah, there can be a clan that developeds in that specific way.

On 3/1/2016 at 8:18 PM, XtheMATTx said:

And I don't think that the OP understands that the Lotus is the one who saved the origin system. She released us from the slavery of the sentient.

 

smh.

The tenno saved the system. The tenno won the war against the sentients.

Read what i posted above.

In fact, she destroyed the system because once she hid the tenno the mess that we got now developed.

On 3/1/2016 at 8:29 PM, Misgenesis said:

Switching dimensions, not time traveling.

How do you explain the word time used by DE?

On 3/1/2016 at 8:30 PM, Marksman said:

Who knows perhaps you'll be right and there will be timetravel, I just think it would bring a whole bunch of problematic questions as to how it would work. 

We'll just have to wait until the update.

And let's hope DE is ready.

Actually, i dont think it's an issue since DE story development is one step forward 17k back. We have barely moved the story forward in Warframe since i started playing. DE loves barely telling you anything and bring up a bunch of questions so doing something like this would be perfect.