[Discussion] Do loot base skills cause toxicity?

[Inmemoratus]

In my experience there hasn't been any toxicity caused by loot skills. I've never seen people pressure somebody else to play a loot build or harass somebody because they think they're doing it poorly.

The only squads I've been in where it was expected that people played loot builds were squads that were formed specifically for the purpose of resource farming. The whole premise of the squad was we're going to have a nekros and a pilfdroid. I pick up some players, and I have both frames ready so the recruiting goes smoothly.

What I found was that other aspects of the squad were more discussed. When I wanted to farm a certain resource this guy told me we should do a different mission than the one I wanted to do, so I decided I'd give his mission a try. He also wanted a speed nova and a trinity so I recruited those too.

Ultimately it's just like building any other organized squad. We need XYZ and we recruit people who have those.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I wouldn't call it toxicity, but it's something.

[EmptyDevil]

It depends on who you encounter but it's usually no.

My only gripe with Desecrate is that it's sole purpose is gathering more loot. It should at least add enemies to Nekros' summoning pool, so kills by teammates can help him build an army.

[taiiat]

i'd say a different result - Players using Warframes that they'd rather not or in a way they'd rather not in order to complete a mundane task at a subjectively less mundane rate...

causing Players to have a much lower excitement, enjoyment, and overall a less ideal attitude while playing.
which is awful and shouldn't be a thing.

- - - - - 

ofc, once in a while i've seen Players being toxic for not having maximum l00t grind if they have the option to.

18 minutes ago, Phatose said:

It's rather hard for me to buy the idea that drop rates are bad because of loot skills when drop rates were bad long before loot skills existed.

some things were bad before having those capabilities, yes.
which then - they don't get better and more interesting to do / fairer for game time because 'just take a l00t frame and shutup' sort of stuff.

and then newer things are sometimes things that these Abilities can't affect, but also means pretty meh for the Player to attempt to get... such as Nitain. which for a while, not only was immine to l00t grinding ofc, but also had no Player Agency at all. atleast you can get it in Reactor Sabotage now, but still.

1 minute ago, EmptyDevil said:

My only gripe with Desecrate is that it's sole purpose is gathering more loot.

big point, yes. it's primary purpose is an entire button dedicated to l00t.
Health Orbs have very limited use (my Despoil loadout w/ Equilibrium to have basically infinite Energy is nice and all, but that's incredibly specialized just to make an item useful). more Ammo is nice ofcourse, but that can't be a primary purpose of an Ability since there's plenty of Mods that can help with Ammo too.

[Melos-mevim]

certainly if you g to a pub usign a shield of shadows nekros instead of a desecrate nekros your going to most likely get fussed at because your not wasting oyur time mashign 3 every few seconds for the others

 

use a pilfering hydroid you get in arguments with other players about them killing enemies before the tentacles can grab them, their response "lol just use a nekros"

 

not to mention that as long as loot powers exist they continue to give DE a reason to release more and more mods and loot with horrendous drope rates there is no reason for how ludicrous the chances are of getting some mods off certain enemies, but its allowed to exist because loot skills can slightly up your chances

[TheGreatBB]

Aside from a Necro desecrating through his health in a survival when I was leveling my Trinity for the first time yelling bless a lot to the extent my clannies will make jokes when I am a Trinity for Sorties, I don't see much people farming with said roles in pugs. Most of the time, farming players stick to premades.

Inversely, I have had a friend telling me about incidents of a farming group that was requiring a specific loadout for Necro. That was pretty toxic sounding.

[vazerd68]

my problems with these abilities is that if you decide to use one of them you are locked in the cast animation all the time

I don't mind them overall if it's just an "additional effect" of an ability that has an other purpose.

desecrate aura toggle would remove most of my concerns on the subject

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

i don't see how, many games that are loot driven have loot manipulation skills or perks that players can take advantage of.

 

examples of these are the gold find/magic find passives in Diablo/forgotten realms games etc.

[AutoPhox]

It creates a split in game styles.

1) players who design their frame/gear/loadout/team/level choice for grind

2) Others (play for lolz/opening up star chart/leveling/other random pubs)

Both ways to play are fine. Like Scott says, they gave us lots of tools to play however we like.

The only drawback is that all these tools(play styles) are dumped into the same bin. When someone who wants to grind gets set up with someone who wants to just unlock the node, then things can get toxic. But, this toxicity would only occur if the players try to tell eachother how to play or they simply dont communicate their intentions. This kind of behavior exists in any game over any reason anyway, and is not endemic nor very common. -and easily avoidable.

If we are talking about super farmers killing or controlling the game's economy, well thats just empirically not true. As long as DE stays ahead of the game, such as re-releasing old event gear, then the game economy can stay relatively healthy.

 

tl;dr

Play however you like to play; and basic communication among pubbers can easily avoid toxic situations.

[Acos]

I had to agree with Scott's apparent stance; He's not responsible for babysitting people's self destructive playstyles, or the pseudo cyber-bullying of other peoples' builds. He added an avenue for people who wanted to farm more efficiently and I don't really think he should have to apologize for people being abusive about it. Blaming DE for other people not being able to control themselves is a bit... stupid. 

The real point of criticism is purely from a perspective of balance, which I imagine he and other DE staff are a lot more interested in and willing to discuss, and that question is mostly 'are frames who offer loot drop advantages still viable outside of that role?' Ultimately that question is going to be subjective, and probably needs to be approached on a 'Frame by 'Frame basis. 

Ultimately if you join a pick up group you need to understand going in that you aren't really in any sort of control of the other people randomly shuffled into your party, and you certainly don't have the right to be telling other people how to play; That's the entire point of the recruiting channel. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Acos

[BansheePrime]

No real encounters of toxicity hear when playing as a "farming frame" and not farming.

[The_Mustachio]

41 minutes ago, Ryouhi said:

Or as Scott shortly mentioned - at leats make desecrate an aura so you don't just stand around desecrating all game

 

Yes please!! I'm a very mobile player. So much that some players have flamed over me in defense missions (I like staying airborne). When I use Nekros, these days mainly for omega isotopes, it pains me to sit and spam #3 for 20-40 mins. An Aura like that would set me free!!

To the original discussion. I play pugs 90% of the time, and haven't seen someone flame over Nekros or Hydroid not spamming loot skills. Although, whenever I see someone playing a shadow build, I wait for the meta guy to flame. Nothing yet. 

[S0V3REiGN]

The root of the problem is bad warframe design not loot abilities. Ivara is well designed so you never see issues with her while Nekros has basically nothing going for him so players build for the only thing they find useful in him. As for Hydroid; if an augment is the only reason players use a Warframe then clearly there is something wrong there.

Edited March 18, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[(PSN)Iudex_Nemesis]

In my experience I've seen more curiosity than toxicity. Some players even pm me requesting a screenshot of the builds I use.

[The66Monkey]

No, there will always be toxic players but most people will mark rares and have fun together even if some player is not maximizing their loot potential.

Sometimes it can be frustrating but i think as long as these skills don't people from having fun (desecrate might need a slight polish)

[FLSH_BNG]

I would argue that it isn't the skills themselves that cause toxicity, but rather the fact that some people expect them to be used at the exclusion of all other abilities if they happen to be present.

I've never run into this situation myself and have actually had great responses to using different builds of all kinds on my Nekros and Hydroid warframes. The former where I built for duration to use my shadow's of the dead and my terrify, and used the soul punch augment to bring back the few downed allies.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

My biggest problem is when abilities that provide extra loot are really only useful for that purpose. If you've got Equilibrium and Despoil on your Nekros, the synergy with Desecrate works very well. It doesn't feel like fishing for loot so much as staying alive, fueling your other abilities, and supporting your teammates. In any other Nekros build, though, Desecrate doesn't have much of an excuse to exist outside of extra loot. It's not reliable for healing, it doesn't confer any special bonuses or buffs, has absolutely no effect on the rest of his kit, and simply feels out of place. 

 i enjoy running a nekros with despoil and equilibrium... as long as you don't take extreme damage, that combination makes nekros pretty tanky, and doesn't use energy so shadows can be cast constantly.  this build is good for resource farming and for survivals, and can be pretty fun on mid level maps.  

I've always found that pub teams enjoy my nekros build and are positive about it.  the team gets piles of health and energy, some loot and a bunch of shadows fighting for them constantly.

i ran this build with a good team on earth's moon survival recently with a hydroid and i got 12 neurodes, which made me happy... and one team member got 20 neurodes (of course it was 2x resources, but as rare as neurodes are recently, it was a good haul). 

Edited March 18, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[KIREEK]

Some ppl assume that loot generating ability frames can only be used for that purpose, that is very narrow minded and unflexible.

I use warframes for 1 specific task, sometimes it is loot generating, sometimes it's to cc (nekros comes to mind) and that decision is mine and mine alone, if the players are toxic then i'll find other players to play with, if they get really toxic then it's an ignore, if the toxic behavior is extremely severe then it's a report.

I don't really care how other players decide to play as long they don't act against the team, that is very rare to see, hardly a problem that warrants attention to the point loot and warframe abilities are being checked.

 

[Stratego89]

This is my personal opinion on the subject. Sitting in one place spamming desecrate while your team does the work when you've agreed upon that so you can all get loot is not TOXIC behavior. It's not GREAT behavior- but definitely not TOXIC. The toxic behavior comes into play when people try to tell others how to play the game. "You are not playing nekros right- sit in the corner, do not have fun, and get us loot. I basically wanted to scream this at Scott when he was saying loot skills are not toxic- because he is only seeing it from the first perspective mentioned here. He's right about the side he's seeing- but he doesn't see the other side of it. I'm sure if he was shown it he'd understand and agree that THAT is indeed toxic behavior and that maybe something could change. The skills should not be removed, they should be reworked. E.g. If desecrate was a large AoE that you place as a toggle and do not have to worry about- something that operates on it's own- Nekros is not forced to CHOOSE what to do. He can satisfy everyone's lust for loot while still having fun and playing how he wants. The niche is filled, everyone is happy, looting is eased. Scott- I truly hope you see this and understand what I'm saying. I know you're a sensible guy and I know you're the one that does reworks. Nekros IMO is almost perfect other than how desecrate works atm. It's a good skill and it serves a GREAT combat purpose- it just needs to go about how it does that purpose differently. And then there's soul punch which could just use a little touch up.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Something is only toxic if it directly influences players to demand other players to play the game in ways against their will.  Maybe not FORCING them to play a certain way, but peer pressure strongly encourages it.  The only reason loot mods would be toxic is if people generally rant and rave and insult players that come with frames (or weapons) that can have loot mods, but don't come packing to exploit their meta potential.  Another example besides Nekros and Hydroid's loot mods would be the old greedy pull Mag and if people bemoaned a Mag joining their cell that didn't have greedy pull installed.  Especially since then it would only be harder to hide in some safe corner and nuke everything without having to step out into a kill zone (another toxic behavior - demanding of everyone to play in the most boring, exploitive way possible.)

If players by and large just look at a frame that has a certain "meta" build and it doesn't come with said meta build and they just shrug, the atmosphere is anything but toxic.  Yes, this loot/progression driven community is very prone to that kind of toxicity because efficiency (see: draco, hour long endless void, CC spam out the wazoo, rushing non-endless and killing literally nothing, etc.) but the existence of the mods doesn't mean it will become toxic.  IF the atmosphere was toxic and it were a matter of the three other members of a cell going "you brought Hydroid but not his loot mod?  Get out." for 90% of the hydroids not built for loot mongering, THEN DE would have an issue to address.  If the community is mature enough to go "it's your frame, dood," then these mods are just nifty bonuses to consider working into a build if the extra loot floats Oneself's boat.

Coincidentally, things like #4 spam that kill everything before the other 3 players can really get a shot in is a form of toxicity.  

 

Toxicity is really about negative influences from one or more players over another one or group of players.  It's generally in a developer's best interests to mitigate toxicity where ever it springs up, since it's rare for toxic player behavior to mellow out on its own.  While I'd say a developer should really think about what they add to a game to prevent toxic behavior triggers, that's A: impossible, and B: makes for a boring game because there's no risks taken.  The best online games are those with communities that aren't full of efficiency/min-max crazed lunatics.

...I miss Mabinogi.  I'd still be playing if the community didn't turn almost entirely into min-maxers, con artists and really awful fashionistas.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Littleman88

[(PSN)Iudex_Nemesis]

8 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

 i enjoy running a nekros with despoil and equilibrium... as long as you don't take extreme damage, that combination makes nekros pretty tanky, and doesn't use energy so shadows can be cast constantly.  this build is good for resource farming and for survivals, and can be pretty fun on mid level maps.  

I've always found that pub teams enjoy my nekros build and are positive about it.  the team gets piles of health and energy, some loot and a bunch of shadows fighting for them constantly.

i ran this build with a good team on earth's moon survival recently with a hydroid and i got 12 neurodes, which made me happy... and one team member got 20 neurodes (of course it was 2x resources, but as rare as neurodes are recently, it was a good haul). 

I tried the despoil + equilibrium combo in a public sortie defense mission with the condition being "reduced energy". It worked surprisingly well.

[LazyKnight]

Personally, I have not seen this toxicity regarding those frames. As far as I care, if someone uses a loot skill great, if not no biggie. It's not something I worry about. 

[Currilicious]

I think this game has relatively lower levels of toxicity compared to some other games I've played. If something can be done to keep things fun and light, then go for it.

Granted there are nitwits out there that demand you have 2 secs EV, 200% duration Nova, et cetera. Just ignore and/or avoid them. Like, I don't play premade Draco because of it, just random PUG-ing is fine.

At the end of the day, this is a game, a form of entertainment. No need to do something painful for the sake of that phat loot/exp.

[Zardica]

I honestly think Loot Abilities hinder how you can build your Warframes, and one of the main reasons I won't build Nekros is becuase I don't want to deal with what pubs will say if god forbid I don't build for Desecrate.

[MumblesMcphatty]

Also have to side with Scott on this. Loot skills don't cause toxicity.

Myopic, toxic players who believe in one-build-to-rule-them-all will be that way with any frame and any ability. It's just more obvious with Nekros + Hydroid because so many players are obsessed with having more useless "loot" that they don't really need. 

Nothing DE can do will change that - nor should they waste time trying.