What is *really* wrong with Ash?

[Telogor]

This is a serious thread.  I need real, serious, thoughtful answers.  Whenever somebody brings up Ash, usually all you can hear is cries for a Bladestorm nerf.  I'd like to do a little comparison here.

Bladestorm vs Avalanche:
10,750 vs 1500 damage per target per cast
1194  vs 476 DPS
18 vs infinite total targets
hits 3 targets at once vs all targets at once
at least 6-second cast time vs at most 3.15-second cast time
no CC vs freezes enemies for 8 seconds

Even though Frost does less damage, he has a clear advantage in CC and the number of enemies he can hit.  If Frost hits about 2.4 times as many enemies as Ash, he suddenly matches Ash's DPS, while completely locking down the enemies and making them useless at killing Tenno or the objective.  The damage and utility gap is far less than what most people think.

TL;DR: Bladestorm is actually well-balanced.

So, bring your thoughtful critiques about Ash and hopefully we can give DE a good idea of how to not screw up this rework.  IMO, Bladestorm shouldn't be touched, because it is basically synonymous with Ash.  Bladestorm has been Cutscene Simulator 201X forever, and there's no good reason to change it now.  Ash really needs decent abilities for his 1, 2, and 3, then we can think about nerfing Bladestorm's damage a little.  A very little.

 

 

 

[-CM-Emptiness]

Bladestorm ignores armor. That's basically it. Look at Mag's Polarise. It used to scale wonderfully, now it has a hard cap. As it continues, Ash's time will inevitably come...

[motorfirebox]

In terms of balance, BS also has the advantage of making Ash invincible during the animation. It also has a range advantage, in that Frost has to run into range to use his ability while Ash can throw that S#&$ before he even comes in the room. edit: as @-CM-Emptiness pointed out, BS does finisher damage, which means each point of its (already very high) damage counts for vastly more against basically every enemy, especially at higher levels.

The real issue with BS is the animation, I think. While BS is running, you might as well pick up a book. You'll have time to get through a few chapters before you have to look at the screen again. It's not that BS needs nerfed, per se, it's that BS is a boring power that could use some interactivity.

Edited July 1, 2016 by motorfirebox

[Varacal]

whats really wrong with ash is that he is the epitome of "press 4 to win", only way that could really fix this is to make bladestorm interactive

[AsahiOka]

And don't forget Ash's BS scales with combo multiplier, that makes BS even better.

Though Frost's Avalanche can delete 100% of enemy's armor if it has 250%+ power strengh, so it's not that bad.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

Serious answer, the people who play Ash. Enemies are going to get their fixes and re-balances, the problem is the players. Blade Storm fits Ash beautifully along with his other abilities, replacing his ult with something else would just feel wrong/ how can it be anything other than a cutscene since making it a button mash would literally break fingers? It's the same as WoF, the problem isn't the ability, it's the people who feel it necessary to spam said ability on content that doesn't require it. Late game, with enemies as they are right now I can see why it becomes much more necessary to spam said abilities.

An idea to make it more interactive as DE wants to do could be to make it sort of like Valkyr's Hysteria Claws or Excalibur's Exalted Blade, where Ash's wrist blades come out and you have to run him around to insta kill enemies w/ finisher damage while it drains power, but would people even want another ult like that?

I feel there is no perfect answer to this scenario, at least not one that'll make everyone happy

Edited July 1, 2016 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4
Edit

[Trichouette]

1) It's "finisher" damage (therefore, true damage that isn't reduced by armor)

2) It procs bleeding, which stacks and deal true damage

3) He is immortal during the animation

4) Enemies are CC-ed and invulnerable to other damage during the animation of each backstab

5) It's boring and doesn't require you to do anything

6) The "start" of the ability is instant, no channeling or anything.

 

avalanche deals ice damage which isn't that great, ash deals "true" damage + true damage DoT... which is the most OP form of damage of course.

[marshmellory]

finisher damage...

at lvl 100:

Bladestorm vs Avalanche:

10750 damage vs ....60 damage........

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Trichouette said:

-snip-

 

Define "true damage". Are you referring to Blade Storm's damage output listed in the UI, aka a clear number and no enemy resistance?

[ssh83]

BladeStorm is only strong because enemy damage and armor scaling are ridiculous.  Rathuum event highlighted this to the max and made many people dig out their Ash (first time I played Ash in like... a year).  I definitely saw more Ash used after Rathuum event... in situations where Ash is NOT the optimal frame of choice.  The only thing Ash is especially good at is vs Shield-Amplified sortie and even then it's not as map-annihilating as a competent Saryn.  Hell... Saryn is probably way more OP in that niche, but it's just that her builds are not as easy to mimic and pull off.

I think Ash is fine as is.  Nerfing something based on popularity is not good game balance.  

[taiiat]

Abilities that play the game for you are very uninteresting.
AoE Blasts tend to fit into this category as well, because they tend to lack any interesting mechanics to interact with.

 

furthermore access to Finisher Damage or True Damage should be kept very strictly in check. it's not that it can't exist, but it can't just be easily applicable because that breaks every games' Damage System.

when you have complex Damage, and you give Players ways to completely circumvent the entire system, they will always bring as much of that with them as they can, because it's objectively the best.

[R34LM]

The common complaint is that Ash does finisher damage, which proceeds as a bleed proc that, thanks to his passive, is 50% of the original for each tic. He is also invulnerable and able to pick up items with Carrier (which also becomes invulnerable). Basically, it is the perfect spam 4 option.

What people don't notice is that once you get passed Draco levels, ie T4 survival passing an hour, placement of yourself before a bladestorm will mean the difference between life and death, because you are ridiculously vulnerable coming out of it. Plus, in most void runs, and ancient healer might run into the crowd you are BSing at nullify most of the damage you are doing (though it will suffer the bleed proc).

Sadly, it's only gotten attention recently because there are Ashs doing Draco and one wave of Dark Sector defenses and spamming 4, and the other players are tired of the killstealing.

Meanwhile, the players using it with respect or use Ash in different ways will get the nerf bat because of this.

Edited July 1, 2016 by R34LM

[gluih]

10 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

BladeStorm is only strong because enemy damage and armor scaling are ridiculous.  Rathuum event highlighted this to the max and made many people dig out their Ash (first time I played Ash in like... a year).  I definitely saw more Ash used after Rathuum event... in situations where Ash is NOT the optimal frame of choice.  The only thing Ash is especially good at is vs Shield-Amplified sortie and even then it's not as map-annihilating as a competent Saryn.  Hell... Saryn is probably way more OP in that niche, but it's just that her builds are not as easy to mimic and pull off.

I think Ash is fine as is.  Nerfing something based on popularity is not good game balance.  

It's not about popularity.

Bladestorm has no synergy with the rest of his abilities. Playing with his 4 basically means ignoring the rest of his kit.

Bladestorm is a really boring ability to use. I was using it in the rathuum arenas because it was efficient. You just have to aim at the enemy, they die and you don't. You don't have to aim, which is nice when you want to get through something quickly, but overall it's just boring. And especially in situations like the arena it is all about spamming the ability as quickly as possible.

It's like the excal nerf where they obviously didn't care about the DPS of a turret excal, because that's what mesa is doing now. It's about giving him the playstyle of a melee frame and not turret mode. In the same way ash shouldn't be about running straight into enemies and spamming one ability until all are dead.

Btw spamming frost freeze isn't really better.

[TheScytale]

From a non-Ash player's point of view:
It's not fun watching him dance as he tickles those enemies that have ancients around. Frost, or any other frame, do not lock these enemies in place and make you unable to do any damage.
It's not fun watching a player killing everything just because of 1 button press, compared to Saryn or Equinox for example who have to build their damage.

From an Ash player's point of view:
We need more interactivity with the power, it's just a slideshow until you kill everything/do 18 stabs. It is fun at first, but not when you play Ash for a while.

From a general point of view:
It's not healthy to have an item that trivializes content, and that's why you never find swords that deal 9999 damage in Skyrim for example. Same with BS, with 10k finisher damage, aka damage that bypasses any armor and shields, and directly hits the health, regardless of the enemy's rank. All that with one button press. DE is aiming to change that, and the outcome can't be anything but good if you have to play the game.
Also, about trivializing content and button spam, it is probably the best and fastest way to get the item you want, but it's also the surest way to get burned out. Watching the same slideshow again and again and again, for hours, is a good way to make you feel like the game is more of a grindfest than it is, and to make you hate it.

Edited July 1, 2016 by TheScytale

[Vargras]

Did... you really try to defend Bladestorm by comparing it to Avalanche, of all things?

Bladestorm:

-Deals finisher damage, which ignores armor.

-Also deals bleed damage, which scales off his passive.

-Scales off the melee combo count.

-Makes Ash invulnerable to all damage sources for the duration.

-Only requires an initial target.

Among other things. There is absolutely no reason not to use Bladestorm, ever. You also mention that Avalanche outperforms Bladestorm if Frost can hit 2.4 times as many enemies as Ash -- assuming max enemy count for Ash's Bladestorm, this is essentially 44 enemies, just for Frost to overtake Ash. As far as the game is concerned, you'll never see this enemy count (they'll usually be dead before the count can even reach that high). Also, the simple fact that Bladestorm does finisher damage + bleed DOT means it'll easily out-damage anything in the long-haul.

So no, Bladestorm actually isn't that well balanced.

[gluih]

8 minutes ago, Vargras said:

Did... you really try to defend Bladestorm by comparing it to Avalanche, of all things?

Bladestorm:

-Deals finisher damage, which ignores armor.

-Also deals bleed damage, which scales off his passive.

-Scales off the melee combo count.

-Makes Ash invulnerable to all damage sources for the duration.

-Only requires an initial target.

Among other things. There is absolutely no reason not to use Bladestorm, ever. You also mention that Avalanche outperforms Bladestorm if Frost can hit 2.4 times as many enemies as Ash -- assuming max enemy count for Ash's Bladestorm, this is essentially 44 enemies, just for Frost to overtake Ash. As far as the game is concerned, you'll never see this enemy count (they'll usually be dead before the count can even reach that high). Also, the simple fact that Bladestorm does finisher damage + bleed DOT means it'll easily out-damage anything in the long-haul.

So no, Bladestorm actually isn't that well balanced.

Bladestorm DPS really isn't a big problem. There are enough ways in the game to deal even more damage.
It's about bladestorm being annoying when another player is using it, it not being interesting to use and it not having synergy with the rest of his abilities. Ash being invulnerable pretty much doesn't matter because when it would matter he usually dies once bladestorm ends.

[Azrael]

22 minutes ago, R34LM said:

The common complaint is that Ash does finisher damage, which proceeds as a bleed proc that, thanks to his passive, is 50% of the original for each tic. He is also invulnerable and able to pick up items with Carrier (which also becomes invulnerable). Basically, it is the perfect spam 4 option.

What people don't notice is that once you get passed Draco levels, ie T4 survival passing an hour, placement of yourself before a bladestorm will mean the difference between life and death, because you are ridiculously vulnerable coming out of it. Plus, in most void runs, and ancient healer might run into the crowd you are BSing at nullify most of the damage you are doing (though it will suffer the bleed proc).

Sadly, it's only gotten attention recently because there are Ashs doing Draco and one wave of Dark Sector defenses and spamming 4, and the other players are tired of the killstealing.

Meanwhile, the players using it with respect or use Ash in different ways will get the nerf bat because of this.

While this is true about vulnerability after coming out of BS, an arcane trickery or two will help immensely. Besides, ash is still crazy powerful at that level, and when there IS an ancient around we all get to watch him twitch while the ash tries to kill him and makes him invincible. Bonus points if he's an energy leech and everyone is losing energy while being unable to do anything about it until the ash either kills him or ends his BS.

[OzoneSlayer]

His damage SHOULD NOT be altered AT ALL. 

Give him synergy and interactivity and we're good

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

It boggles the mind how much of the so called "issues" people have with ash could be fixed by quite simple fixes and methods that would not change anything to his raison d’être.

* People complain that they can't target enemies that are awating a bladestorm ? Just allow other players to kill Ash's bladestorm targets... Problem solved, and it'll speed up killing very tough enemies too, so it's actually an improvement. Heck, throw a slow down debuff and people will start appreciating bladestorm, as it would make ash targets easy targets to others. I'm sure 90% percent of the ash complainers are sore because of the targeting restriction mostly. Unless you're really bitter about having someone clearing those hard to reach places all over the map with clones so you don't have to hunt every single enemy taking cover.

* People complaining that Bladestorm is too passive ? First of all,. this only affects Ash Fans, and i'm pretty sure if you're an Ash fan, you enjoy ash's playstyle for what it is, otherwise you would be playing someone else. But I suppose if people do find it too passive to watch short animation of badass ninjas clones killing everything, make it semi interactive.

Just drop the amount of enemies you can kill by let's say 4 and allow players to control Ash while bladestorm is running... And give damage mitigation/some form of protection to make out for the loss of invincibility during casting. Would once again improve the ability since you could use your clones to take out weak enemies while you strike key targets.

*People are spamming Bladestorm , they need to stop ? Well, honestly, most frames keep spamming their abilities anyways. It's not like excalibur isn't a turret, mag isn't a pull fanatic, Mirage isn't a Hall of Mirrors Simulor monster, Frost isn't an armor stripping slowdown master, Nova doesn't debuff and slow down the whole map, Saryn works her &#! to do her thing due to reworks, Nekros make people run away while super slow, Ember is infinite always on bladestorm with worse scaling, Inaros blinds and finishes everyone off... The list goes on an on. My point being that pretty much all frames are built around abilities that clear rooms properly, are fun, are distinct from one another, and that are supposed to work fine.

-------------------------------------

It's sad because to me Ash has reached his peak. For years nobody used him much, with a slow bladestorm that didn't scale well, an useless shuriken, a teleport that kinda sucked and shorter invisibility, but through the years, after many tweaks and augments, I feel like Ash is one of the strongest, most coherent frame in the whole game.

Shuriken is now a great first ability, with bleed procs plus the ability to strip all armor with Seeking Shuriken.

WIth the advent of Prime Continuity and Narrow Minded, Ash's Invisibility has grown to a more than adequate 22+ seconds, with an augment that allows the player to share it to teammates...

With the advent of Covert Lethality and recently , Fatal Teleport, Teleport becomes a great ability to kill enemies regardless of armor or level.

And good old Bladestorm , which used to be useless because it was faster to kill enemies with melee while invisibile than waiting for the animation to come actually became good when they added the clones, increased damage and scaling... It became even better due to Zenurik allowing much more frequent casting, due to the bleed procs, the finisher damage and the interraction it has with Arcane Trickery. It's an aoe that does it's job, that scales pretty well into endgame and that serves as both a mean to mitigate damage and to clear foes... It's not imbalanced in the sense that there's a limit to 18 enemies affected at a time, you're unable to move during the casting and it lasts a long time, especially on high level enemies... That and your bladestorm can get stuck on ancients, not allow you to save an objective or teammate... or be wasted on a room with very few enemies.

Now, if only all frames had a mix of survivability, armor negation, high priority target killing and scalable aoe.... We woudn't be having this discussion... But alas, it's easier to point the finger at those frames that work and say "They are too good, nerf them"... Instead of fixing those so called "bad" frames that are lackluster and don't scale into endgame.

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[RunningTree3]

I do not think there is a problem with Bladestorm as an ability. The damage output is fine, and the Bleed and Finisher aspects are characteristically Ash.

Even more, I love being able to stylishly take down foes with shadow clones around me. I just do not want the game to do it for me.

Hence why I am on Team Stance for a Bladestorm revision.

[Trichouette]

2 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

 

Define "true damage". Are you referring to Blade Storm's damage output listed in the UI, aka a clear number and no enemy resistance?

"Finisher damage type" (which I call "true damage") isn't reduced by any kind of armor and bypass shield & proto shield.

Ash's bladestorm directly hit the health point and aren't reduced by the armor nor shield nor anything.

Plus, these hit proc a bleeding effect, and bleeding is also "true damage"

[AKKILLA]

4 hours ago, Telogor said:

This is a serious thread.  I need real, serious, thoughtful answers.  Whenever somebody brings up Ash, usually all you can hear is cries for a Bladestorm nerf.  I'd like to do a little comparison here.

Bladestorm vs Avalanche:
10,750 vs 1500 damage per target per cast
1194  vs 476 DPS
18 vs infinite total targets
hits 3 targets at once vs all targets at once
at least 6-second cast time vs at most 3.15-second cast time
no CC vs freezes enemies for 8 seconds

Even though Frost does less damage, he has a clear advantage in CC and the number of enemies he can hit.  If Frost hits about 2.4 times as many enemies as Ash, he suddenly matches Ash's DPS, while completely locking down the enemies and making them useless at killing Tenno or the objective.  The damage and utility gap is far less than what most people think.

TL;DR: Bladestorm is actually well-balanced.

So, bring your thoughtful critiques about Ash and hopefully we can give DE a good idea of how to not screw up this rework.  IMO, Bladestorm shouldn't be touched, because it is basically synonymous with Ash.  Bladestorm has been Cutscene Simulator 201X forever, and there's no good reason to change it now.  Ash really needs decent abilities for his 1, 2, and 3, then we can think about nerfing Bladestorm's damage a little.  A very little.

 

 

 

No more Blade Storm talk.

Its not his only ability that needs work

What I want is a Smoke Screen AoE Cloud like this

Even in Assassins Creed smoke bombs open enemies to Finisher kills and offers CC.

If Ash retains his same stealth mechanic as now outside of the AoE cloud and provides this CC then the shortest invisibility in game becomes an actual utility tool and seperates Ash from the rest of the Stealth Warframes. Plus synergizes with Smoke Shadow allowing allies a late entry into the team buff

As for Blade Storm, I want a Stance but im not getting into that. I really wanna discuss Smoke Screen

[AKKILLA]

2 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

I do not think there is a problem with Bladestorm as an ability. The damage output is fine, and the Bleed and Finisher aspects are characteristically Ash.

Even more, I love being able to stylishly take down foes with shadow clones around me. I just do not want the game to do it for me.

Hence why I am on Team Stance for a Bladestorm revision.

Thanks for the support!

If You havent voted already please do soo, Your votes matter #STANCEBLADESTORM

http://www.strawpoll.me/7404229

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

I do not think there is a problem with Bladestorm as an ability. The damage output is fine, and the Bleed and Finisher aspects are characteristically Ash.

Even more, I love being able to stylishly take down foes with shadow clones around me. I just do not want the game to do it for me.

Hence why I am on Team Stance for a Bladestorm revision.

This is pretty much it. With the only addition of being able to actually kill things that are in front of you waiting for Ash to stab them.

Moving on to my own opinions, though, I have to say that Blade Storm is under the spotlight for a reason. Hear me out:

The OP has a reason for comparing blade storm to avalanche; they are, essentially, the same kind of ability. You press 4, watch the animation and an area around you takes damage, done. It's comparable to Crush, Miasma, Stomp and the other radial target abilities.

I'll spoiler the rest to save your eyes, read if you're interested:

Spoiler

 

He's a little off on the numbers, of course, but that's fine. Blade Storm, properly modded, does a little over 7k finisher damage, with a bleed proc that totals up to 14k, meaning his total damage to 18 targets is over 20k unmitigated damage to a targets health. Even with the current enemy scaling, that's not really a joke ability right through to late game. If you go for a strength build on Frost, he does roughly 4k cold damage to freeze targets and a further 1k as the 'explosion' at the end to shatter them, which is 5k total modified by the target's resistances to cold damage.

Compare this to Stomp at a lowly amount of about 2k with a strength build, or Divine Spears (essentially the same ability when you think about it) with 3.2k or Crush with about 4.4k... You're starting to see why 20k per target is considered a lot.

The other abilities CC better, the other abilities are shorter animations with more spam ability, so maybe that's not so bad that the damage is less. But 15k less? Hmm... Even Saryn, you build for strength and basic Miasma can deal 5k damage, but combo it with the viral and toxic procs from both Spores and Molt/Toxic Lash and that damage triples to 15k, which is brilliant, especially as it has (at that duration) a 4 second CC of enemies too. That's still, with all the effort needed to combo that up, 5k less than Ash, and all of the abilities I've listed so far are not finisher damage, so they're all able to be mitigated by the enemy resistances, armour and shields.

So here's the thing; Currently for 1 button press and a short animation to sit through, Ash can deal more damage to a single target (up to 18 targets in fact which is observably the high end of how many can be caught in the average cast from any of the other similar abilities) than any other frame with the same kind of ability, and for the same cost. Instantly recastable, invulnerable during the animation, and with a damage type that ignores all damage resistances.

 

As far as the game stands, it's just a little over-powered and very much the press-4-to-win ability.

So yes, I believe that Blade Storm needs a look. No, I don't believe it should be nerfed into the ground.

Potential changes below, if you're interested:

Spoiler

 

If anything, we want it to be interactive. Not button mashing every hit the way the Exalted weapons are, but how about a choice of target? As you're stabbing the one target, you have to aim towards the next target, or back to a previous one that survived. Chain your way across a room to safety or go in a circle to come back to the start, how about just hitting the bombard and ancient healer over and over, just as an example. Range dictates whether you can reach the next target or not and duration affects the area you can aim for in a similar (but opposite) manner to Mesa's Peacemaker.

So your ability acts a lot like Peacemaker: You're locked into a mode, attacking a target with your ability, not with weapons, you can only stop or carry on, the same as Peacemaker. As you go on the area you can aim for is narrower and narrower, meaning you have to seek out targets quickly and efficiently to re-target the ability otherwise you stay killing the same enemy with narrower and narrower focus until it's dead, you run out of energy, or you cancel the ability. With a bit of balance, the average well modded player would drain out their energy at around 17 to 18 attacks, but well modded and well played you could actually reach, say, 20 or so. Meanwhile, every other player could kill enemies as normal, so you're going to run out of mobs to kill faster than they can reach you. The limit of enemies on the tile would naturally cap out even the best Blade Storm player, even if they're solo, making the high damage output balance more. Likewise enemies not standing close enough together would mean that your 'storm' only reaches one or two and the ability is over almost before it began.

Modding wise it would then balance out too, because a longer duration and efficiency build to keep it going would reduce the range you could hit consecutive targets from, a range build would reduce your strength, and a strength build would reduce your efficiency, the old rock-paper-scissors balance that works with Hysteria and Exalted Blade. As it stands you can just ditch duration and keep an average range in order to boost your strength and efficiency for it, making it a spam ability with no real chance to mod for your other abilities; the way most lazy ash players currently mod is to ignore Smoke Screen and Teleport in order to strip armour with Seeking Shuriken and blitz rooms with Blade Storm. With the change-up you could potentially kill more enemies, but the mod balance would have been returned and you could include your other abilities in the kit more often.

Not to mention seeing Ash actually target the most dangerous enemies, dancing around them with repeated stabs until they're dead while we clean up the trash mobs, then jumping to another target, would actually be a nice change.

 

There is a problem with Blade Storm, but how it can be fixed is something that's right up there for debate.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

10 hours ago, Telogor said:

This is a serious thread.  I need real, serious, thoughtful answers.  Whenever somebody brings up Ash, usually all you can hear is cries for a Bladestorm nerf.  I'd like to do a little comparison here.

Bladestorm vs Avalanche:
10,750 vs 1500 damage per target per cast
1194  vs 476 DPS
18 vs infinite total targets
hits 3 targets at once vs all targets at once
at least 6-second cast time vs at most 3.15-second cast time
no CC vs freezes enemies for 8 seconds

Even though Frost does less damage, he has a clear advantage in CC and the number of enemies he can hit.  If Frost hits about 2.4 times as many enemies as Ash, he suddenly matches Ash's DPS, while completely locking down the enemies and making them useless at killing Tenno or the objective.  The damage and utility gap is far less than what most people think.

TL;DR: Bladestorm is actually well-balanced.

So, bring your thoughtful critiques about Ash and hopefully we can give DE a good idea of how to not screw up this rework.  IMO, Bladestorm shouldn't be touched, because it is basically synonymous with Ash.  Bladestorm has been Cutscene Simulator 201X forever, and there's no good reason to change it now.  Ash really needs decent abilities for his 1, 2, and 3, then we can think about nerfing Bladestorm's damage a little.  A very little.

 

 

 

Aside from the Armor-ignoring damage discrepancy.

 

Bladestorm does offer some CC

If you are the Non-Ash in a party: Bladestorm'd enemies might as well have been individually banished by Limbo.

 

Most Bladestorm'd enemies act staggered while being attacked.

However, these same Bladestorm'd enemies don't reliably take damage from other party members. Basically Ash marked them so Ash will kill them.

(I believe Warframe powers reliably damage Bladestorm'd enemies, melee and guns seem to be inconsistent)*

Only enemies that Frost makes difficult to kill with all of his abilities: Enemies with Invincibility or increased Damage Mitigation phases. (Juggernauts, Ruk, Hek, Kela, Kril, Regor, Raptor, and I'm probably missing some others)

Slowing down/extending the Invulnerability phases is annoying to me....Short duration builds are fine as the slow effect can be applied and is usually removed before the Invulnerability state.(But most players are not modding for minimum duration)