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Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes


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The decay is a factor in the problem for low levels, giving enemies an edge.

 

It's more of a problem in high-end content, where they can lose millions of health in ten seconds.

 

And don't forget that this is an ultimate ability. It needs to be good.

Edited by (PS4)B_Psycho2
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I just don't like the idea that while desecrate is active, I have to pay for the chance to get nothing, AND it's my only attempt to get anything. I don;t get to choose when to roll, I don't even know when it's gonna happen. I mean, what other frame has an ability with almost half a chance of doing nothing?

Also, does anyone know if two Nekros can still desecrate the same body? I'm fine with that exploit being removed, but I'm just curious at this point.

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)B_Psycho2 said:

The decay is a factor in the problem for low levels, giving enemies an edge.

 

It's more of a problem in high-end content, where they can lose millions of health in ten seconds.

 

And don't forget that this is an ultimate ability. It needs to be good.

Then most likely it's because you've tanked your Duration.

It is an ultimate ability, and it is good. I fail to see the issue.

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When will DE listen, make desecrate a passive ability.

Make SOTD his 3rd ability

Put Corpse Explosion as his 4th ability LIKE EVERY OTHER MMO where there is a summoner.

Have it scale with duration like Nova's 4, and have it be based on a % of enemy health.. Again like every MMO where there is summoner. The community has been suggesting this for forever now.

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I just have a complaint about the rework (BTW I do not concider it a nerf ... nekros feels better but pay attention to the things that i wrote below).

I do not have that much of a complain about the desecrate change aside that the health orbs are not garanteed anymore, i think we should get always something out of a desecreated corpse, we should never pay a certain ammount of energy/health for nothing.

As it is for SoTD i can say the ability feels better overall but i have two complaints:

if i have killed a nullifier, 8 mine/shield ospreys and a tech, why am i getting the ospreys and not the tech and the nullifier when those are more powerfull units than the ospreys? (even tho those mine ospreys are a kick in your behind sometimes).

you were solding us this rework of the ability by saying over and over that SoTD is not going to be duration based, off course you said also about the healing of your shadows and all that but your main thing was that SoTD was not going to be duration based. Yet the abilitie is still Based on duration. You are saying that the reasoning behind that is balance, so taking all of that into account ... 

  1. Why did you not put that "small" detail on the original post?
  2. How is the abilitie being unbalancend taking into account that recasting the ability cost the same amount of energy as the original cast? (i think the recasting should be calculated by how much health have our shadows lost).
  3. Can we in some kind of way select the priority of the souls we can summon before starting the mission? (with that i mean a screen that you can prioritize some class of enemie over the others so we do not have a problem like the one i stated above)

It was a bit disingenuous from DE's part by solding us SoTD as a non Duration based ability and then turn around and make it Duration based with health draining instead, but also the fact we did not even get any notification whatsoever before the update was bad form.

Nekros to me has improved alot with the changes ... but it was not exactly what we were told we were getting. 

Edited by mrrobotto67
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3 hours ago, lyravega said:

Yes, because this is what the game tells me. 130% Power Strength (+30%) still gives you 0.3 health multiplier, and 0.45 damage multiplier for example, and it was the same before. Unless the ability is now adding another bonus on top of those (which would mean it is undocumented), then their base is the same, because what you kill is the same.

 

  • The number of Shadows spawned has been reduced to 7 and is no longer affected by Mods. This is a necessary change for performance on all platforms. To compensate for this, Nekros now spawns stronger Shadows prioritized by heavy unites killed with Shield multiplier and draw aggro more heavily. 

The Shadows now are obviously stronger. Otherwise, the patch notes were a blatant lie and this was a nerf in the face of Nekros, obviously not what they intended to do. I am not a Nekros player myself, but I heard a lot of people saying that the Shadows are a lot tougher now. What you see on the HUD are just base stats multipliers, a base which is higher now.

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The change to toggle for desecrate was a nice change BUT almost feels like desecrate does nothing now. Barely get more drops than when using other frames and forget comparing to hydroid he gets waymore loot than nekros does now

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2 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

It is an ultimate ability, and it is good. I fail to see the issue.

There are two main issues. 

1) The damage and health multipliers were not raised enough to compensate for the minion cap, since now the ability does less damage in total than it did before the change. 

2) The ability now decays in effectiveness over time, even outside of combat, on top of becoming potentially weaker as time passes via Shadows getting damaged or killed directly by enemies. 

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2 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

This is hilarious.

The minion count changes were justified

But were they? For over 2 years now it's been possible to summon 15 shadows and I haven't seen any threads saying that the Shadows cause people lag. 

Regardless of whether they do or not you can take a squad of 4 people are summon 28 shadows. Assuming that it really is performance issues then surely we shouldn't be allowed to do that. If 7 is the limit for performance reasons, why are more Nekros's allowed to summon more?

I suppose you could argue that it's 7 per person, and the actual limit is 28 (56 in a raid) shadows, but I'd point out that that's more than what a single Nekros used to be able to do, and there was never more than one Nekros. Even if there is it's player choice, if you know you're going to have performance issues if you and the other Nekros cast SotD then simply don't cast.

TL;DR The minion count change wasn't justified.

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For those that never bothered to check, a 75 second duration (primed continuity and narrow minded) is now changed to a duration that lasts more than 75 seconds and the health remaining is essentially the health they lost before the change.

So you end up recasting the ability with the same frequency as before, extending it to 80 or 90 seconds and you place the shadow itself in danger of being destroyed.

Thing is, they now draw more agro and there are only 7, the ammount of health they have after 75 seconds is too litle for the punishment they receive, so it is likely that you will have to pay attention more often and it is likely you will recast the ability before the 75 second mark. (indirect nerf)

The ability on it's own is great, you may receive buffs, you draw agro away from you, you deal damage and you may even become tankier with the augment, for a single ability that is pretty impressive, the agro is actually better than before, enemies will no longer march straight to terminals and avoid your army of shadows, now they actually fight, but it comes at the cost of a more "babysit gameplay" and likely less duration, because trust me, leaving the shadows for more than 75 seconds and they will likely die.

I don't like the ammount of shadows and i don't want to babysit shadows, looking constantly at the health bars is annoying.

Edited by KIREEK
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42 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

There are two main issues. 

1) The damage and health multipliers were not raised enough to compensate for the minion cap, since now the ability does less damage in total than it did before the change. 

2) The ability now decays in effectiveness over time, even outside of combat, on top of becoming potentially weaker as time passes via Shadows getting damaged or killed directly by enemies. 

Whilst the first is probably true, that's not an issue with the decay. The second, however, is a not much of a point. Their duration used to tick down outside of combat before, and you'd end up either having to cast it again after they fell in the middle of the fray, or wait until they expired to recast. That's actually gotten more favorable with the changes, since now you don't have to have downtime in combat where you lose your meat shields / Shield of Shadows. The Shadows getting killed has more to do with their increased aggro draw and the fact that there are less available targets to distribute the damage across, and a lot less to do with the decay.  Shadows of the Dead is an ability which is hard to appreciate and understand, as much of it is not psychologically tactile. This is similar to how people vastly underestimate how large the final amount of money received is in the double a penny every day for a month riddle. Issues with Shadows of the Dead are more than likely your build and your perceptions than with the actual ability.

30 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

But were they? For over 2 years now it's been possible to summon 15 shadows and I haven't seen any threads saying that the Shadows cause people lag. 

Regardless of whether they do or not you can take a squad of 4 people are summon 28 shadows. Assuming that it really is performance issues then surely we shouldn't be allowed to do that. If 7 is the limit for performance reasons, why are more Nekros's allowed to summon more?

I suppose you could argue that it's 7 per person, and the actual limit is 28 (56 in a raid) shadows, but I'd point out that that's more than what a single Nekros used to be able to do, and there was never more than one Nekros. Even if there is it's player choice, if you know you're going to have performance issues if you and the other Nekros cast SotD then simply don't cast.

TL;DR The minion count change wasn't justified.

Just because you haven't seen people complain about the lag does not mean it hasn't happened, whether to players with lower end PCs, those on consoles, or perhaps it's less about player lag and more about the issues it could have been having under the hood code wise which stifled their future design space. Or perhaps it's because the number of Shadows you could summon got to the point where you couldn't actually see to target your enemies in corridors. And that's an issue I had seen complaints about, and had issue with on occasion personally, especially with Nullifier Shadows. At any rate, it's a change that was made from the business perspective and not the balance perspective, and whatever DE changed it for, they came to that conclusion for a reason, and they attempted to compensate for the change balance wise. If they failed to do so, then they failed to do so and that needs addressed. But that's not the main point of this thread.

 

 

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On 8/10/2016 at 11:12 AM, armedpoop said:

Can we get rid of health decay? You guys removed the duration on the ability, but added it right back in another form and it even scales off of duration, why? The shadow's health drops based on a percentage as well, so its still basically a duration. Why not just leave duration as a number, and NOT have the shadows just die over time? Or why not just actually remove duration all together? 

One thousand times, this.

The desecrate changes are great, I love not having to stop and mash 3 non-stop. However, I feel like I have been given a new mashing mission, which is to press 4 arbitrarily because I can never quite tell when my shadows are going to vanish on me. They still have a set duration that scales based on duration, perhaps efficiency? I dunno, I haven't played around with it enough to know, but I do know that I really can't tell when they are going to pop because their duration indicator is a bar that follows them around (their health bar) rather than a counter that stays on my screen. And I'm not interested in keeping my reticle on my minions, it's supposed to be aimed at the enemy. Not to mention the fact that over their duration, their durability is in steady decline, so the "actual" duration is far less than their technical duration which only makes their existence even more uncertain and arbitrary.

 

Even though I know their "max" duration with my current build is about 35 seconds, it doesn't help to be counting in my head (which I really should not have to do) because if they took ANY damage at all, that number will be off. I assume their health ticks down based on a percentage of max health and not by a percentage of current health. They certainly don't seem to last as long as the latter might allow. Plus they become less and less functional as they approach expiration as their health is in constant decline... so once again, spam 4 cause I have no idea where all of my minions are or what they have gotten themselves into.

 

I really think DE should bring back duration and have it on the power bar (perhaps make it re-castable while active and it does the same teleporty/healy shenanigans) That or actually let the minions live until they die, but not with this mysterious health drain mechanic that turns their duration into a mystery box challenge.

 

Having read some of the other feedback and seeing how desecrate could have the potential to suddenly wreck your health/energy bar with these changes depending on how much death you are surrounded by, it seems like the new theme of nekros is "uncertainty." I think his new nickname is: Doctor When? "When will my energy/healthbar spontaneously combust?" "When will my minions spontaneously combust?" WHO KNOWS?! The mystery is half the fun!... yes? (no.)

 

Lol. I certainly appreciate the "out of the box" new mechanics on trial in this version of nekros, the 2.5 energy/health (at least that's what my build has) consumed ONLY when an enemy is desecrated allows for health/energy regen to work, which is really cool and has a lot of potential. And maybe the complaints of a spike to your health/energy drop people aren't using max efficiency or high enough duration, but that doesn't de-legitimize their concerns. However, I think traditional duration for shadows and perhaps a known quantity of a energy/health) per second drain on desecrate might work better. Though I haven't personally found myself in trouble with desecrate yet, I know for absolute certain I don't want the shadow mystery duration that has simply moved my spam button from 3 to 4.

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You realize if DE wished to make this trully on par with old Nekros' strength builds, SOTD would be OP, because if my math is correct 1 of the seven shadows would roughly be 12 times tougher and do 10 times the damage of the enemy it is a copy of, one of these shadows would be broken op, the reason old Nekros wasn't op was because the power was spread out among potentially 17 to 18 shadows 

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ABOLISH THE HEALTH DECAY, sometimes my shadows appear with half health and 7 shadows is already enough trouble on our hands, SotD was never seen as "OP" (Oh how I don't like that term, not even in the slightest) 

Edited by Wolfnrun
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11 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

Just because you haven't seen people complain about the lag does not mean it hasn't happened, whether to players with lower end PCs, those on consoles

Given how much people complain, the lack of complaints on this matter indicates to me that it if it does happen it's happening to people attempting to play the game with less than minimum specs. Things that affect gameplay shouldn't be balanced around people who can't even meet minimum specs.

12 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

Or perhaps it's because the number of Shadows you could summon got to the point where you couldn't actually see to target your enemies in corridors. And that's an issue I had seen complaints about, and had issue with on occasion personally, especially with Nullifier Shadows. 

Then it should have been stated as such, far better than passing it off as a performance change.

19 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

At any rate, it's a change that was made from the business perspective and not the balance perspective, and whatever DE changed it for, they came to that conclusion for a reason, and they attempted to compensate for the change balance wise. If they failed to do so, then they failed to do so and that needs addressed. But that's not the main point of this thread.

I don't see how that makes it justified. 

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2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Given how much people complain, the lack of complaints on this matter indicates to me that it if it does happen it's happening to people attempting to play the game with less than minimum specs. Things that affect gameplay shouldn't be balanced around people who can't even meet minimum specs.

Then it should have been stated as such, far better than passing it off as a performance change.

I don't see how that makes it justified. 

Just because there aren't complaints here on the forums does not mean it was not an issue. It's justified if you assume that the developers are making rational decisions, since, after all, the evidence that caused the change is holistic and based upon things that players such as ourselves would not have access to. And balance decisions such as these can and should absolutely be based upon those with lesser PC specs to a certain degree, or you essentially throw away the support of thousands of players by denying them access. It's not hard to imagine how a Shield of Shadows Nekros summoning four Nullifiers along with eleven other enemies could cause some performance issues. Especially not when you consider this could be combined with the Void tileset, a Thunderbolt Attica Mirage, a Nezha with a Synoid Simulor, and P4tW Ember rocking an Atomos. It's not like this change was completely out there.


At any rate, once again, if they failed to balance appropriately given the changes to reduce Shadow count, then that does absolutely need addressed. But this is not the thread for it.

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My question is. Is Frost/Frost Prime ever getting a rework appearance wise? I know back when he was released cloth physics weren't that great but now they're much better. Also i have to say I'm abit unhappy with the "rework" of nekros since i used to main him all the time. I remember when I could march around with an army of shadows without losing health or being limited to seven shadows. point is I think the rework was a bust and the frosts need a rework appearance wise

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Well you should add that they feel like a bunch of statue doing little to nothing even when they fellow you. The old version they fell like they were actually running to get has many enemies has possible , but now they fell like exacly that a bunch of decoration

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This is a thread discussing Nekros, and the fact that decaying health does not need to exist. 

That's a part of his 4, and the amount of shadows being needed to 7 is also a part of his 4. It's close enough to the point where you shouldn't care. 

 

Anyways, the point is this is a mistake by DE. DE is alright, they can make mistakes, but blindly defending mistakes won't cause needed change to occur. 

We're not going to riot about this, but we're the players, and this is our game, as a community. DE and the players are working together to keep the game good. 

So, if you think Decaying health is good, fine. But if you think it's absolutely necessary, you don't know what game balance is. 

Warframes can clear rooms, turn invisible indefinitely, turn enemies against one another, remove weapons permanently, 

And people think it's a problem to be able to summon 7 specters that don't passively rot. That's wrong.

Edited by (PS4)B_Psycho2
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