Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Eldest89]

I think that a good way to make this ability better (after the change of update specter of the rail 2.1) is to scale che power's cost depending on the number of shadows. I mean if you summon 7 shadow than you will have the power cost more than summoning 1 shadow (you know 7 shadows, 1 die, you use the 4 power to replace it). And if there are no shadows to summon ( so you use the power just to heal them) the power will be less costy in order to make the healing more convinient and to solve the decaing problem.

[Gurpgork]

12 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

It would, however, lower player input considerably which is something that they were trying to move away from with these changes. 

The way to increase player input is to give the players a variety of tools to tackle a variety of situations, not through forcing players to hammer the same button over and over and over again. If they wanted to make Nekros more active, they should have given him 3 active abilities to compliment SotD in different ways, not forcing him to constantly babysit his minions. 

[Wolfnrun]

1 hour ago, Matt89Connor said:

every day i reapeat and repeat; the decay system is a big problem, it need to be fix, ( i know , remove this system is impossibile because for the DE the undeads become too strong), but DURATION MODS, 3% of base decay , this is the problem.

4 solutions:

1)make effcicency mods good for reduce decay.

2) base decay go from 3% to 1.75 so duration mods need only if you want shadows with long duration and you can use others mods fo nekros  and the build is more easly.

3) 3rd solution: the DE idea speak in the past devstream: decay % is based by Strenght MODs.

4) lifesteal for shadows to take life from enemies 

Shadows the dead is now the reverse, now dead of the shadows because they die before getting a chance to fight  

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On August 11, 2016 at 9:08 AM, IceColdHawk said:

Problem is not only that but that they've said they will last forever and WON'T need duration anymore. And what did we get? The same, just a health decay instead of a timer which is WORSE since you won't be able to see when your shadows will die exactly, unlike with a timer. And it needs duration...

I hope DE will go back to their promise of not needing duration anymore and take the health decay back.

Dude, you can recast and summon new minions if the previous SotD minions eventually die.

And really, SotD is really just damage reduction fodder for Shield of Shadows and Health Conversion for Nekros. The interactive element in SotD is that you can babysit a maximum of 7 shadows and recast SotD to cap out / heal 7 shadows again. Building Nekros toward duration mitigates the HP drain on the shadows, btw.

Sure, you can say it's a nerf, but is it manageable? Yes it is. I don't think this aspect of SotD's rework warrants any immense QoL concerns on Nekros' [new] playability.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Dude, you can recast and summon new minions if the previous SotD minions eventually die.

And really, SotD is really just damage reduction fodder for Shield of Shadows and Health Conversion for Nekros. The interactive element in SotD is that you can babysit a maximum of 7 shadows and recast SotD to cap out / heal 7 shadows again. Building Nekros toward duration mitigates the HP drain on the shadows, btw.

Sure, you can say it's a nerf, but is it manageable? Yes it is. I don't think this aspect of SotD's rework warrants any immense QoL concerns on Nekros' [new] playability.

You don't have the update yet so why do you think you know better than me how the new nekros turned out? Or that it's manageable. But it's not the point of being manageable. Limbo is also "manageable" for some. They said shadows come with infinite duration. They lied and gave it health decay. Reb said it was for "balance purposes". Okay. So, why not just give them a SIMPLE timer that can be refreshed by pressing 4 again instead of health decay? Now when the 30s shadows last only 15 seconds, they will also have half HP which is an unnecessary and unasked for nerf.

Btw, desecrate also gives way less loot now.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

If i ´ll run Defence for farming with Nekros + Pilf Hydroid and put Nekros near spawn point, with Desecrate On, where Hydroid will be cast Tentacles, walk around every 2 min will be only thing i ´ll need to do, right?

[lyravega]

18 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

• The number of Shadows spawned has been reduced to 7 and is no longer affected by Mods. This is a necessary change for performance on all platforms. To compensate for this, Nekros now spawns stronger Shadows prioritized by heavy unites killed with Shield multiplier and draw aggro more heavily. 

The Shadows now are obviously stronger. Otherwise, the patch notes were a blatant lie and this was a nerf in the face of Nekros, obviously not what they intended to do. I am not a Nekros player myself, but I heard a lot of people saying that the Shadows are a lot tougher now. What you see on the HUD are just base stats multipliers, a base which is higher now.

If you are going to get obsessed with just one word (stronger) over there, it can mean they are stronger because of what follows that word. They can be stronger because they are prioritized by heavy units, or it can be because they have a shield multiplier.

And if you are going to take everything in literally as they're written, it says "with Shield multiplier" - at first glance you may understand it as "every shadow now have a shield multiplier" and thus "every shadow now has shields".

As I've said, base is most likely the same. The base is the enemies you kill. You say you don't play Nekros, and you are just hearing what other people say. I'm saying, I'm not feeling that "compensation". Many others on the forums saying the same.

[xRufus7x]

10 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

The problem is that they outright said we wouldn't have to build for duration anymore before going out and adding this pointless health decay, which also makes the shadows -significantly- less tanky to boot. 

They have also said that anything shown in the dev build is subject to change multiple times.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

2 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

They have also said that anything shown in the dev build is subject to change multiple times.

It's still a pointless nerf on an ability that was already underpowered to start with.

[xRufus7x]

49 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

Shadows the dead is now the reverse, now dead of the shadows because they die before getting a chance to fight  

Run Primed Continuity. My build is Primed Continuity, Streamline, Equilibrium, energy Conversion, Health Conversion, vitality, Power Drift,Despoil and Shield of the Dead. Wait to cast Shadows until you pick up an energy orb and you get 69 percent damage resistance then all you have to do is maintain the shadows which is easy with Equilibrium keeping your energy and health topped off. Throw in the rejuvenation aura and a sentinel with the health Regen mod or a sahasha kubrow for extra efficiency.

Edited August 12, 2016 by xRufus7x
Updating build

[LunarEdge7]

Soul Punch.. still needs way more punch. Or at least let it be an ability that can automatically send that enemy into your "Shadow Memory" so to say, so you can bring'er up without having to kill the enemy to summon it as a Shadow?

 

[xRufus7x]

11 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

 

De likely didn't want people slamming efficiency and strength mods on him with no downside or we would just end up with another Loki power strength situation.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

28 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

Run Primed Continuity. My build is Primed Continuity, Streamline, Equilibrium, energy Conversion, Health Conversion, vitality, Power Drift,Despoil and Shield of the Dead. Wait to cast Shadows until you pick up an energy orb and you get 69 percent damage resistance then all you have to do is maintain the shadows which is easy with Equilibrium keeping your energy and health topped off. Throw in the rejuvenation aura and a sentinel with the health Regen mod or a sahasha kubrow for extra efficiency.

That just makes it sound like the changes have significantly narrowed Nekros' build capabilities to be viable. For one, I don't like running with a Kubrow or a sentinel. I always bring my Kavat with me. Not everyone can get ahold of primed continuity either.

[xRufus7x]

11 hours ago, Eldritchkitty said:

 

Build options are exactly the same as they were before. All of his powers scale off the same mods. Also when you don't have a Primed version use the regular one. And finally choosing a pet that meshes with your build is always a good idea. You don't have to but if you want your frame to perform at its best you look for the best synergies. Additional bonuses for using the appropriate arcanes and syndicate gear.

[RahuHordika]

33 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

De likely didn't want people slamming efficiency and strength mods on him with no downside or we would just end up with another Loki power strength situation.

Then they should just have kept the timer on shadows instead of this terrible health drain that makes them last even less.

[xRufus7x]

3 minutes ago, RahuHordika said:

Then they should just have kept the timer on shadows instead of this terrible health drain that makes them last even less.

Possibly or they could just keep the health drain as it fits his theme and just reduce it a bit. 

[xRufus7x]

11 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Personally I love the shadows of the dead change. It's epic and was so fun for sorties

Desecrate... I have problems with this ability currently. It seems after the rework even with max range the cast of it is sooo slow even if there's a ton of bodies around. bodies disappear well before it's even looted them most times for me. Not sure if bug or an unannounced feature, but its annoying 

So the way desecrate works is it doesn't guarantee a drop anymore. What you are seeing is likely the corpses being eaten by Desecrate without leaving a drop.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

50 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

De likely didn't want people slamming efficiency and strength mods on him with no downside or we would just end up with another Loki power strength situation.

Loki was actually good though, Nekros /needed/ a buff and the changes nerfed him. Letting people do that probably would have actually helped him be less underpowered.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Eldritchkitty
Autocorrect

[RealPandemonium]

They just need a base damage multiplier of 5, and it will be as strong as old max powerstr builds.  The ability to maintain the shadows of your choice (more or less) indefinitely is potentially really powerful and justifies the health drain (thought base drain is probably too high atm.)

[xRufus7x]

1 minute ago, Eldritchkitty said:

Loki was actually good though, Nekros /needed/ a buff and the changes nerfed him. Letting people do that probably would have actually helped him be less underpowered.

I disagree. For every new downside he gained an upside. It could still use some tweaking but overall he is in a far better position than he was.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

Just now, xRufus7x said:

I disagree. For every new downside he gained an upside. It could still use some tweaking but overall he is in a far better position than he was.

We'll have to agree to disagree then because apart from the desecrate toggle all I see are flat nerfs and I was really looking forward to giving the frame another try too.

[RahuHordika]

39 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

Possibly or they could just keep the health drain as it fits his theme and just reduce it a bit. 

Shadows would still die faster than before because they are taking continuous damage to their health on top of what they'll be receiving from the enemies.

A timer is still a timer so we may as well go for the one messes with the shadows the least if DE insists on keeping one.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Congrats guys, you did it. You ruined desecrate.

 

Enjoy it. That's exactly what evryone asked for. Me, i considered getting necros Prime access. Untill now. Screw this Frame.

I have to agree, fellow ps4 player. Right now if you just want whatever resources, like plastids, gallium, polymer you just take hydroid. Just overall better. What nekros is good for is getting specific mod drop from specific rare enemy. Say, you want terminal velocity from drekar hellion. They are not very common, but you can go to Uranus survival and make sure to cut every hellion into 3-4 pieces and spam desecrate until every piece rolls out loot. Which is way better than hydroid or ivara, who merely double the loot roll. With announced changes nekros is just rubbish. For rare enemies you better off pickpocketing with 4 ivaras and for general loot hydroid is way better, also decent crowd control, especially if helped by disarm loki or nova. With these changes nekros becomes limbo. Or zephyr. No niche basically. 

[Chipputer]

4 hours ago, Cryostasisprotoss said:

I see no issue with the decay, it is not even noticeable.

If you are saying the decay isn't noticeable then you either have a (near)max duration build or you're blatantly lying about it. Either way, you are still forced to press 4 once every 30ish seconds, breaking the flow of gameplay and that, in and of itself, makes the health decay directly noticeable in a much bigger way than just seeing their health bars slowly drop.

58 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

The ability to maintain the shadows of your choice (more or less)

Not so much, "your choice," as just, "the strongest as designated by DE and only DE." Generally that's fine, but there are a few issues with it, namely being that the way the algorithm works sometimes causes you to get more of one type of enemy than another because they're ranked exactly the same (IE: Corrupted Bombards vs Corrupted Heavy Gunners. I kill 5 of each but killed a few more bombards than gunners before I saw the gunners, now I have 5 bombards and 2 gunners when I would have preferred to have it the other way around). Whenever this happens you either have to start from scratch (presenting the same issues) or you have to hope that the enemies take out the ones you didn't want so you can refill the empty spots with new ones, while not taking out the ones you wanted to keep.

I'd be fine with the base health decay if it was based on efficiency or simply a hard-coded number (more like 1% due to them also taking damage from enemies).
Yes, I realize everyone and their brother runs with efficiency, but Nekros is like Nyx for me-- there are builds I would love to use with him that utilize two of his augments and zero efficiency mods so I can maximize his other stats and get the most use out of the augments (I run Mind Freak and Chaos Sphere with my Nyx and it's amazing). As it stands, right now, if I drop fleeting or transient into my build, I'm automatically going to have to give up another slot for Primed Continuity to cover the negative that they present. Even then, I'm still stuck with about 78% duration, which makes me have to refresh my shadows even more than someone with base 100% duration.

[Tizodd]

5 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

I disagree that decay is a problem. It can be modded for to be a non-issue. If you we didn't have this our minions would not die and we wouldn't be able to summon the stronger ones or different ones. <snip>

DE initially said they'd be removing duration from the ability.  They then added duration back in the form of health decay.  Health decay is objectively worse than normal duration: shadows are there to be meat shields and dish out a little extra damage.  As meat shields, they're there to take damage from enemy units (they were even given more aggro with this update to help them in their meat shield role).  Why then, give them a non-stop DoT on top of their role of taking damage?  Totally counterproductive.

If DE's final decision was to keep duration on the ability that's fine.  But it makes much more sense for it to have a normal duration like before, and not a constantly ticking DoT.