The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[GrimAtrament]

Just now, (PS4)haffmo said:

All this holier-than-thou talk. So superior players tell me all your secrets.

its called using the parkor system and not walking its not that complex

[NeithanDiniem]

3 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

I keep saying, Diriga has two unique precepts not counting its attack precept. All other sentinels only have one.

Give Carrier a second unique precept to increase the range of its vacuum. Honestly, I don't see why this option was never considered (and if it was, no mention of it was ever made by the development team that I am aware of).

And give every other sentinel a second unique precept while we're at it.

Yes lets counter the very reason why DE did the change by keeping Carrier as the obviously better option to use.

[MagPrime]

11 minutes ago, PapaFragolino said:

The real problem here are ammunition and orbs, what directly affect the combat experience.

True.

I run pancakes, so I often forget to bother with the drops.

[Chipputer]

Well gee. I could prove my point by comparing 12m in a hallway to 6m in a giant open area, too.

[NativeKiller]

7 minutes ago, Tsoe said:

maybe 7.5m  would plz the whiners?

No need to use disrespectful terms like "whiners" to people who are offering feedback about the game.

[Beggining]

As the title says, this topic will be used to determine the preferred range the Vacuum should be in. Could be the range we have after Vacuum Within (6m), could be the default max Vacuum range (12m), could be somewhere in between.

In my time lurking on the countless amount of Vacuum complaint threads, somewhere around 8m to 10m seems optimal. Of course, as I rarely use the Carrier before, I wouldn't be able to partake much in this discussion.

Your thoughts on what range should the Vacuum be?

[Yrveth]

There's no silent anything wrt Vacuum, the cold hard numbers already showed that people really, really, really don't like picking things up off the ground.

[Nolc]

3 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

what minimap? you meen the glitch thing at the top of the map that need more fixes and why are you stopping to shoot that only leaves you open to getting shot by enemies. you should only be staying in one spot for atlest 0.5 second or 2 unless its defense with a snow globe

and why for everything that is good in this game ARE YOU WALKING?! press shift atlest.

how can i be annoyed by something iv never used to begin with because i considered it a crutch?

only time im scanning for loot is if im looking for medallions and vacuum cant pick those up

 

 

 

10

Glitchy thing? I've played the game for 2 months now~ and I haven't seen the thing glitch out in any significant way, maybe you need to get gud in reading the thing? lol

Defense missions do leave you time in between waves to run around and pick up loot o_O Obviously I'm not literally walking, I'm rolling and sliding, but I still have to now be slower and look more careful to pick up all the loot. It's just not as fast or fluid as it was before. It feels really bad. Are you intentionally obtuse? Is this what it is? Do you just not understand that before I would fly around and pick up loot just by playing and occasionally doing a parkour time flip around on the map, and now i have to actually look for the loot because the range has been more than halved?

[Kuestenjung]

7 hours ago, pagepro said:

We asked for VACUUM UNIVERSAL TO WARFRAMES NOT SENTINELS. Then everyone would use whatever the hell they wanted and we have no problems here. 

No, what DE did was tie it to sentinels AND reduce the range of vacuum. This is a complete 180 from what we wanted.

WE? Me and others didn´t asked for this, in fact "we" were against a universal Vacuum.

[Beggining]

My friend, in the internet (and in the world, by extension), you are never alone. Trust me :)

[Troll_Logic]

2 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

So really what we're saying here is that.. it's not a 5m carrier because we can move?

Just pointing out the coverage difference between the old and the new isn't simply math because tenno move.  A static 5m and a static 13m compare completely differently than a moving 5m and 13m comparison. 

2 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

The difference is that now instead of running forward through a collection of drops, we now need to run into them, then stop, run left and right, maybe dance a little on the spot to make sure it all got collected, then move on. Gotcha.

That's what tenno had to do with any sentinel other than carrier.  Not now.

2 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Really though, by the explanation at the top, even if we were given a cylindrical suction range, we're still lacking vertical, and horizontal ranges, meaning multiple passes over an area in some cases rather than just one. 

I covered that.  It's true.  But, how many drops are actually outside of that sweet spot?  15%  25%  Definitely not a majority, but some.  In many closed maps, none.  I think it is a decent trade-off for it to be innate and in every sentinel.

2 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

I still don't at all see how this is a good change, other than to make us complain about something other than the extra months delay for TWW

 It opens up the viability of every other sentinel and it basically let's a player equip two sentinels.  It enhances eight(?) sentinels and slightly nerfs two.  That's not a bad deal.

It isn't perfect.  But I think it's better than last week.

[(PSN)haffmo]

Btw 12 to 6 is exactly half

[notlamprey]

We need options that will allow us to achieve the previous standard range of vacuum.

Anything less than that just isn't acceptable to me, because it wasn't breaking anything about the game to begin with. On the contrary, it was making up for some broken things.

[KiloFoxx]

I actually have actively opposed Vacuum as a whole pretty much from the start. I find it makes players lazy and over-reliant on the feature, so that when it's no longer there for them to use as a crutch, they can't handle it and lose out on much of the game as a result. unfortunately, this is also true with Rhino's Iron Skin and WAS True with Valk's Hysteria. their early acquisition stages meant that players could cheese past the starmap and missions with them before ever actually gaining the skills they needed to hold up later on >.< Carrier and Vacuum did the same thing, only with Pickups rather than skill

[Slaviar]

11 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Its not skill its just common sense, but you apparently elected to use a crutch for the I don't know.

For picking up the ammo you wouldn't/can't pick up in the first place?

For the resources you already have/going to have an abundace of?

For the drops from crates/caches you would be picking up due to proximity anyways?

For the rare resources that come in big resource caches, and also have distinct shapes and green glows?

For the HP orbs that don't drop unless crates, nekros, or oberon is involved?

For energy orbs that give you like only 25 energy and are pretty easy to jump to and pick up?

none of this makes a lick of sense to me, the fact that you people are going bonkers over something so... small

I've wanted to write it but you summarised it greatly.

I get it, people were using Carrier for QoL. Base pickup range is indeed low. But seeing amount of comments claiming Carrier is now useless, that it was only useful Sentinel, that there's still no reason to use pets really makes me wonder if we're playing same game

Edited October 6, 2016 by Slaviar

[TrinityPrime]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Are there any other players who don't care about vacuum?

Vacuum nerf is a nerf but some people couldn't care less as we just collect the salt as it rains down.

Does that mean anyone who responds to your question invalidates their membership to the silent majority?

Though looking at the update gif showing what I assume are Tenno holding up vacuums, vacuum weapons next?

Also I tried to look up a comparative response to today's salt update and this was the best I could find:

 

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by TrinityPrime

[Tsoe]

5 minutes ago, NativeKiller said:

No need to use disrespectful terms like "whiners" to people who are offering feedback about the game.

i wouldnt but since yesterday i saw so much insult cause of that change that it get on my nerves

 

you are right OP is actually giving feedback without much whine

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tsoe

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Its not skill its just common sense, but you apparently elected to use a crutch for the I don't know.

For picking up the ammo you wouldn't/can't pick up in the first place?

For the resources you already have/going to have an abundace of?

For the drops from crates/caches you would be picking up due to proximity anyways?

For the rare resources that come in big resource caches, and also have distinct shapes and green glows?

For the HP orbs that don't drop unless crates, nekros, or oberon is involved?

For energy orbs that give you like only 25 energy and are pretty easy to jump to and pick up?

none of this makes a lick of sense to me, the fact that you people are going bonkers over something so... small

All DPS weapons eat a lot of ammo, Fire-rate secondaries eat a lot of ammo, spammable and togglable abilities without zenurik eat a lot of energy, We have mods like energy and health conversions, with each new prime we need tens of thousands of resources. You want people to pick all that stuff manually? You serious? You can't be serious. That's a lot of time out of life. That's a lot of time out of fun. People used carrier not because they're lazy. Carrier effectively CHANGES the pace of the game and increases the fun you have from using the parcour 2.0. Picking up items is not common sense. You can't just say "it's common sense" and dismiss the conversation. No, it's not. Not in a fast-paced game like warframe. 

[GrimAtrament]

1 minute ago, Nolc said:

Glitchy thing? I've played the game for 2 months now~ and I haven't seen the thing glitch out in any significant way, maybe you need to get gud in reading the thing? lol

Defense missions do leave you time in between waves to run around and pick up loot o_O Obviously I'm not literally walking, I'm rolling and sliding, but I still have to now be slower and look more careful to pick up all the loot. It's just not as fast or fluid as it was before. It feels really bad. Are you intentionally obtuse? Is this what it is? Do you just not understand that before I would fly around and pick up loot just by playing and occasionally doing a parkour time flip around on the map, and now i have to actually look for the loot because the range has been more than halved?

yes i do but  leave the objective between waves and never have issues

iv never been slow at picking up loot i dont under stand how you can suffer so much from such a little change if carrier did not exist ever we would not even be having this conversation

[Miser_able]

I couldn't give a flying turd about vacuum

[NeithanDiniem]

14 minutes ago, letir said:

There were problems because DE created them.

And now they have fixed them. Funny how that works eh?

14 minutes ago, letir said:

They make first initiation Syndicate's rep so bad, so players was forced to use Viver. When this problems become apparent, DE forced their kneejerk S#&amp;&#036; on us.

The kneejerk reaction was to immediately end the problem of people rushing through content that was not intended to be gotten through that quickly while it gave them time to work on a solution.

14 minutes ago, letir said:

And only when this "solution" meet forum backslash, DE revert BS changes and starting to think about actual solution.

You remember that part where they fixed problems? Yea, this is when it happened. No the forum backlash largely played so little a part in their decision to do the change that it is only viable as a footnote on the bottom of why they made the change.

14 minutes ago, letir said:

So, they fixed this in the right way only because people give them feedback about changes. Because we, player, "cry rivers" on forums and call their decisions BS.

Just because a few players (you notice that it isn't in the hundreds yet even) complain about something vocally and go to each others forum posts to add their comments doesn't make you the majority here. A very large number of players I have spoken with in-game have regarded the change as a good thing and like the update over all. And this is coming from players who largely all had carrier as their primary companion used. Your feedback alongside every other person's feedback would be what is considered, and people arguing FOR the change being a good thing is just as valid and viable as yours is.

14 minutes ago, letir said:

Not because white knights like you ready to jump on defence in any time.

Just like you and others like you as a dark knight jump in to complain when a change occurs? Just because people are complaining doesn't mean it actually contributes to another change, just as much as some times there are people that come in and "white knight" to defend something and don't contribute to change. That street is two-ways.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

but with a big &amp;#&#33; excavation map, and plenty of running back n forth, its tedium, n as u said, carriers usage vs other sentinels needed to be balanced. That was accomplished by vacuum being made universal and giving carrier the new precept. The range Nerf on vacuum only needlessly angered 89% of players by making something they all use everyday less than 20% as effective as before, so we cant even be happy that its on all sentinels.

unfortunately you don't have the numbers to back up the claim that 80%, not 89%, of players all disagree with this change. From what I have seen there are plenty of people that agree with it.

Edited October 6, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[NinjaMan]

This can be summed up easily, nobody wants to bullet jump/sprint/roll everywhere collecting loot. It is JUST a convenience in a bullet hell horde shooter that is extremely reliable and helpful. I'm personally fine with the carrier changes seeing I can use my kohm / wtv and I don't need a p ammo mutation anymore. BUT... You're loosing 6m which is losing more than half the squared range of vac, which is alot. If it was 9 that would be pretty ok I guess. Basically these changes were made so everyone that uses specific gear... wat.png wont need to pick up the massive loot piles scattered everywhere, while at the same time having to pick them up. The change was counter intuitive.

Edited October 6, 2016 by NinjaManTR
grammer editz

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

I am the minority, and I'm not silent, don't see a reason to be honestly.

I'm a proud Helios and occasionally Diriga user; I went back to hell when Carrier was first release on U10, used it for ages and my % raised up to 94% among sentinels.

Then I came back from hell and switched permanently to Helios or Diriga, now my Carrier % is at 54%.

So yea, I don't care about the Vaccum nerf and I do care about the sentinels buff that was just released; that said, I feel sorry for Carrier hardcore users because this will look like a terrible nerf to them, afterall as we said in old days, once you try Carrier you never come back(which is not always true, but still).

[Alcoholism]

11 minutes ago, 3goats said:

If you claim you "don't notice it" then you either never used carrier or played so little of it that it just wasn't part of your playstyle

I notice it, but it is not enough to hurt my gameplay style.

12 minutes ago, 3goats said:

Much of the feedback considering the vacuum nerf appears to have gone ignored completely by the balance team.

Speculation. They take on board feedback and suggestions all the time. This process is actually ongoing - as in it is not 100% complete and is subject to change.

14 minutes ago, 3goats said:

The statistic of 89% of players using carrier pre-nerf appears to have gone largely unnoticed by a very vocal minority

It hasn't gone unnoticed - the players you're calling out actually don't mind the challenge considering how easy it was to pick up loot before. They don't mind losing some range if it means all their sentinels can now innately have vacuum. Again it is still an ongoing experiment with DE and they will be able to better see this through statistics over the coming weeks.

18 minutes ago, 3goats said:

Vacuum was fine for years, and nobody really had an issue with vacuum itself. It was the fact that other sentinels couldn't use it.

Your last sentence there explains why it got changed. Which means it was not fine and had been in discussions for a long while. Otherwise they would have continued to ignore it.

21 minutes ago, 3goats said:

Mods like Thief's wit are busted when it comes to height, and while it does show things that are on the same horizontal plane as you at the correct distance, the vertical distance doesn't work. Jump in the air like 10 meters and Mods like Thief's wit and Enemy Sense no longer function as they should.

This is actually a very good piece of feedback and I would welcome a fix for this.

22 minutes ago, 3goats said:

The actual effective range of carrier is cut down quite a bit to somewhere around 4.5 meters.

I think there are two mechanics at work here - a frontal cone vacuum and a peripheral vacuum.
So if you're looking at something in that frontal cone, it won't actually pick it up at 6m but at a reduced range (at least from what I have seen which would explain the 4.5m).
The peripheral range however should be 6m.

25 minutes ago, 3goats said:

As it sits, most of the sentinels are still pretty bad.

It is still a WIP and they are aware of players wanting a rework or a new form of usability from the sentinels and companions. I do agree with this and I'm sure when they have the time they will consider it. But as it stands right now they are just pets and they aren't supposed to be over the top useful, just helpful.

[(PSN)haffmo]

2 minutes ago, KiloFoxx said:

I actually have actively opposed Vacuum as a whole pretty much from the start. I find it makes players lazy and over-reliant on the feature, so that when it's no longer there for them to use as a crutch, they can't handle it and lose out on much of the game as a result. unfortunately, this is also true with Rhino's Iron Skin and WAS True with Valk's Hysteria. their early acquisition stages meant that players could cheese past the starmap and missions with them before ever actually gaining the skills they needed to hold up later on >.< Carrier and Vacuum did the same thing, only with Pickups rather than skill

Rhino skin was nerfed. So what crutch?