[SPOILERS] Im not really feeling this new operator mechanic

[Hypernaut1]

From a gameplay standpoint AND a lore/world building standpoint. Gameplay wise, it just feels clunky and unnecessary. I dont see why we needed it or should want it, apart from the fact they make us need it. Its also a step back from Focus, where the operator is clearly more powerful. On top of that it gives us all another generic power set that gives us yet another way to go invisible. 

What really bothers me is how now all of a sudden the Operators are teleporting out of thin air from our ships to the battlefield and can now teleport our frames around a level at will. The astral projection of the operator was cool to me. Making them just pop into the level physically just feels cheap and purely for shoehorned in gameplay mechanic purposes. IMO, it doesnt even feel like it makes "sense".

i LOVE the fact that we can do this inside out ships and hopefully relays and feels like a natural addition, but its disappointing that they actually want us to do this during combat. Im honestly not looking forward to more mechanics if all its going to amount to is making the operators gods on the battlefield with an ever increasing new abilities. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

It seems so far that their really a way to beat new, overly tough types of enemies our Warframes can't deal with, acting as an extension of our abilities for said enemies.

I was honestly hoping they'd be the ultimate emphasis on Stealth gameplay. You're incredibly weak, you deal good damage at close range, and you can use abilIties to avoid or distract overly deadly enemies, kind of like in the old days of Warframe.

Oh well.

Although I will admit, the range of Void Dash and length of Void Walk is a little ridiculous.

Edited November 13, 2016 by (XB1)Graysmog

[Xekrin]

24 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What really bothers me

Just curious, do you know the definition of 'spoiler'?  Here's a hint, putting "new operator mechanic" in a title is a SPOILER, anyone who reads this title NOW KNOWS THERE IS A NEW OPERATOR MECHANIC.  That in itself is bad enough but now anyone who reads it will likely feel compelled to read on to see what this new mechanic is.

Just a fun fact,  no one else seems to really care beyond putting SPOILER in the title, as if that somehow negates making the title itself a spoiler.  

Anyway, I rather like the new mechanic and frankly if you don't like it don't use it, as is the most used response of anything in warframe nowadays.  You've no idea what else they have planned for this, and there is ample room for changes, improvements and additions in the future.

Sidenote

now all of a sudden the Operators are teleporting out of thin air from our ships to the battlefield and can now teleport our frames around a level at will.

If you don't understand the lore and logic behind this, you didn't really pay much attention to the quest itself.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Xekrin

[Krion112]

I like the potential in it, but I'm not a fan of its present execution. Here's hoping it get's proper expansion, without trying to overshadow the existing game-play.

My hope is that Focus will shape the way the abilities work, like enemy's killed by a Naramon's Void Beam will leave behind a Specter of that enemy, or a Madurai's Void Beam will become more intense the longer it is maintained, giving it punch-through and more damage. Zenurik's Void Pulse would disarm enemies, while Unairu's would leave behind a momentary, directional shield.

Just extensions on the abilities that give them more direction, but also just make them extensions of your Warframe.

However, making them mandatory is where I draw the line; a specific mechanic for a specific situation defies Warframe's age old mantra of 'Play the Way you want'. If you have to play it to progress, which it seems like Kuva may be involved in, then you can no longer hold that idea to be true.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Krion112

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

 

Just curious, do you know the definition of 'spoiler'?  Here's a hint, putting "new operator mechanic" in a title is a SPOILER, anyone who reads this title NOW KNOWS THERE IS A NEW OPERATOR MECHANIC.  That in itself is bad enough but now anyone who reads it will likely feel compelled to read on to see what this new mechanic is.

Just a fun fact,  no one else seems to really care beyond putting SPOILER in the title, as if that somehow negates making the title itself a spoiler.  

Anyway, I rather like the new mechanic and frankly if you don't like it don't use it, as is the most used response of anything in warframe nowadays.  You've no idea what else they have planned for this, and there is ample room for changes, improvements and additions in the future.

Sidenote

If you don't understand the lore and logic behind this, you didn't really pay much attention to the quest itself.

we all knew a new mechanic was coming, im not detailing what that mechanic is in title. If someone is that sensitive to spoilers, they shouldnt read past the warning. 

i payed attention to the story, it was all some mind game Teshin played with us to unlock the ability, im just saying that it stretched my suspension of disbelief. I can go along with powerful astral projection, but the straight up physically prancing on the battlefield is just too much to me. I liked the mystical feel of transporting only their minds with their WF and using all of their built up mental energy to project every few minutes to unleash power leaving our WFs slumped on the battlefield. Now they just reduced it to an anticlimactic button press and we just teleport and dilly-dally around out of our WF. 

[Midas]

44 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

From a gameplay standpoint AND a lore/world building standpoint. Gameplay wise, it just feels clunky and unnecessary. I dont see why we needed it or should want it, apart from the fact they make us need it. Its also a step back from Focus, where the operator is clearly more powerful. On top of that it gives us all another generic power set that gives us yet another way to go invisible. 

What really bothers me is how now all of a sudden the Operators are teleporting out of thin air from our ships to the battlefield and can now teleport our frames around a level at will. The astral projection of the operator was cool to me. Making them just pop into the level physically just feels cheap and purely for shoehorned in gameplay mechanic purposes. IMO, it doesnt even feel like it makes "sense".

i LOVE the fact that we can do this inside out ships and hopefully relays and feels like a natural addition, but its disappointing that they actually want us to do this during combat. Im honestly not looking forward to more mechanics if all its going to amount to is making the operators gods on the battlefield with an ever increasing new abilities. 

I take down level 80s with my Operator fairly fast. I love this mechanic because it can help for last minute survival instincts. And really do you think the void makes sense???

Edited November 13, 2016 by W.AxlRose

[ravend]

Needs a tree or some lvl up mechanic, something feels missing.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What really bothers me is how now all of a sudden the Operators are teleporting out of thin air from our ships to the battlefield and can now teleport our frames around a level at will. The astral projection of the operator was cool to me.

It's still astral projection, just in a more solid form, with one of those "hard light" handwaves. If your Zariman kid was actually out in pitched combat, it would be SUICIDE. More to the point, Warframes getting downed and needing revives is small potatoes to A FLESH AND BLOOD ZARIMAN KID getting injured and needing immediate attention; but instead, upon taking 100 damage your Zariman kid just despawns with no fuss and no panic. The only possible explanation I can think of is that it breaks the astral projection

Edited November 13, 2016 by TARINunit9

[Illuminatus51]

I agree wholeheartedly. The Operator being able to even walk should be a miracle in and of itself. This mechanic being necessary to get new and ridiculous mods is enough to make me step back from Warframe for a while until the developers take a cold shower and think about things for a bit. The Tenno have had a society built around the warframes for who knows how long, and yet they still treat them like children. Children with ridiculous superpowers, which is moronic.

If they really wanted us walking around and using void powers, they should have made the War Within a playable version of the Zariman incident, and not a weird mind-power showdown. And with our ability to literally teleport in and out of our frames on the table, who knows what other nonsense we'll be able to do.

[Cubewano]

As fun as it is to be able to walk around as an operator I do agree the general mechanic for it is kind of silly/unpleasant. Nobody wants to have to trade out their super fun, mobile power packed frame, for some really frail, slow, one trick pony zariman child every time enemy x, y, or z, shows up, it drains from the combat experience and just lets one more boring enemy combat mechanic to trickle into the game. 

 

That said, sure DE could improve this mechanic, but at the same time, I can't see that being done well enough without kind of overshadowing our warframes, but who knows, maybe that's the intention here. Maybe DE is trying to slowly push the frames out of the picture so this game can be run by prepubescent super children.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Cubewano

[Stahlhammer]

The only thing that really bothers me right now is insane lag spikes when switching to operator. Game literally freezes for 3 seconds. 

[Nlim]

1 hour ago, Krion112 said:

I like the potential in it, but I'm not a fan of its present execution. Here's hoping it get's proper expansion, without trying to overshadow the existing game-play.

My hope is that Focus will shape the way the abilities work, like enemy's killed by a Naramon's Void Beam will leave behind a Specter of that enemy, or a Madurai's Void Beam with become more intense the longer it is maintained, giving it punch-through and more damage. Zenurik's Void Pulse would disarm enemies, while Unairu's would leave behind a momentary, directional shield.

Just extensions on the abilities that give them more direction, but also just make them extensions of your Warframe.

This. I really hope that they held up on fleshing out focus because they were waiting for the warwithin changes. I see a lot of potential in being able to switch around ones gameplaystyle mid mission on a button press - assuming we get enough options to customise the Tenno and make them more useful to general gameplay.

1 hour ago, Krion112 said:

However, making them mandatory is where I draw the line; a specific mechanic for a specific situation defies Warframe's age old mantra of 'Play the Way you want'. If you have to play it to progress, which it seems like Kuva may be involved in, then you can no longer hold that idea to be true.

I do disagree on this one though. As I see it "Play the way you want" more often than not just boils down to "Your choices are meaningless". Challenging gameplay comes from restrictions - the better the balance the more options one has to beat those restrictions but if one has too many choices the challenge inevitable become meaningless because with too many options all choices won´t be equal - there will be some which make the challenge far too easy.

 

 

[Krion112]

14 minutes ago, Nlim said:

I do disagree on this one though. As I see it "Play the way you want" more often than not just boils down to "Your choices are meaningless". Challenging gameplay comes from restrictions - the better the balance the more options one has to beat those restrictions but if one has too many choices the challenge inevitable become meaningless because with too many options all choices won´t be equal - there will be some which make the challenge far too easy.

The issue here is that the using the Tenno is absolutely required in defeating Kuva Guardians and Siphons. That means we boiled down to one option, and it's an option that obviously not all enjoy. That's kind of the point of Warframe; there are multiple paths to reach a destination, but when DE starts making it like this, it bottlenecks players needlessly, going against the premise of the game.

I'm not saying that ultimate freedom is good, as like you said, good balance through restriction allows for more options, and my argument is that they indeed should start making the counter system more apparent (ie, the balance of Offense<Defense<Support<Control and Mastery). But I think DE was afraid the Tenno wouldn't have enough purpose, so they made them a requirement, like they often make Archwing a requirement because not a whole lot of people actually like it, because they want its purpose justified in-game.

Shoehorning a mechanic does not justify it, but you're right that challenge does come from restrictions, but the true mastery in game-design is know how to create fluid restrictions.

Glad you agreed with my other suggestions, though.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Krion112

[Tekaia]

3 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

The issue here is that the using the Tenno is absolutely required in defeating Kuva Guardians and Siphons. That means we boiled down to one option, and it's an option that obviously not all enjoy. That's kind of the point of Warframe; there are multiple paths to reach a destination, but when DE starts making it like this, it bottlenecks players needlessly, going against the premise of the game.

Sadly its not the first time it's happen. Look at cryotic there is only one way to get it too and not everyone like excavation missions.

[Ailissa]

I love it.

 

I love the whole operator thing and focus was boring.

 

This lets me walk around as my operator and use her in missions which is what I want. 

 

I have never used focus. I have one lens in my Braton P and that's it. None of my focus abilities have been used or had any points put into them. Seeing my operator pop up and shoot a giant beam was awful. This is more like what I was expecting when we made them. 

[Krion112]

Just now, Tekaia said:

Sadly its not the first time it's happen. Look at cryotic there is only one way to get it too and not everyone like excavation missions.

Again, probably a result of fear of Excavation not being 'important' enough to play. One of the most commonly complained about things is the lack of justification (ie, why play Exterminate, when you get mission rewards from Survival?, etc). I'm hoping DE will start realizing this paradox in their logic, and begin making amends. There should always be multiple ways of getting something, each appealing to the different play-styles of their player base, as this concept is the entire reason why Warframe works; the freedom of play-style.

Obviously, the devs are facing a challenge on this front; balancing every addition to have purpose while also catering to different play-styles. Hopefully, after much experimentation, they will find an answer that all, or at least the greatest majority, of us can agree with.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

1 hour ago, ravend said:

Needs a tree or some lvl up mechanic, something feels missing.

Should imagine it will tie into the focus rework, the focus trees branching off into light and dark. A bit like them old Star Wars games were you picked your force abilities.

[AcceI]

Is there an option in the story where we can rid ourselves of the tenno and go back to being just pure warframe like the golden days?

[SoulEchelon]

32 minutes ago, Stahlhammer said:

The only thing that really bothers me right now is insane lag spikes when switching to operator. Game literally freezes for 3 seconds. 

That's the only problem I have as well. Luckily it seems it doesn't happen when someone else is doing it. Also a skill tree could be good. Wouldn't surprise me if they're implementing that at some point as well.

As for everything else people are complaining about, I just don't see the problem. I like having a new layer of gameplay. A new way of dispatching enemies instead of your typical run and gun mechanics. I like being able to see my awesome Tenno actually getting off her butt and fighting (Well, as an astral projection but still).

4 hours ago, AcceI said:

Is there an option in the story where we can rid ourselves of the tenno and go back to being just pure warframe like the golden days?

No, because you've always been a Tenno since the game began. If you want to use your own headcanon and stay ignorant to the story, that's your prerogative.

[Amphyy]

I really want to love the new operator mechanics but their fragility and speed are really holding me back from saying that I enjoy them. Having the health of a mosquito and the speed of a segway makes it hard to even do the required operator stuff because you're always a stray bullet or two from losing all your energy and getting phased back into your frame. It's not a really realistic setup when you've got the usual swarms of high level grineer plus the guards and jesters plus the moving kuva target. The best kuva runs I've had involve at least one person sitting out of the operator action to CC, which is a neat bit of coordination but not that great because it means someone's going to get benched in the one scenario where the operator system is really viable. 

Also the fact that operators can't pet kavats or shake hands with other operators just ruins the fun :'(

The best ways I can think of to fix this would be to implement stamina or otherwise stop linking warframe energy to operator energy, and maybe some sort of system to buff up the operator a little? I'm not expecting a full blown mod system but even tying the focus system into the operator's stats somehow would be an acceptable fix if it means I can stop getting downed by anyone who sneezes in my direction.

[Kaotyke]

6 hours ago, Stahlhammer said:

The only thing that really bothers me right now is insane lag spikes when switching to operator. Game literally freezes for 3 seconds. 

It reads my HDD like no tommorrow when I use that, even in Solo. I fear using it in a squad.

But, yeah. It lost its "mystical" feel. But what REALLY bothers me is the Warframe standing there and still taking damage, maybe when the Infested door opens and we deal with whatever is in there it will move around. Steve said it will be opened in December... but I'm betting for February.

[Tenno_Cobra]

Well, it's a first iteration, so it has room to grow and improve.

Here's a few suggestions to make them better :

1 - Give them the ability to roll / some basic parkour / faster movement speed - Right now they are way too slow to be useful for navigation and feel clunky and unresponsive compared to warframes.

2 - Give them a bigger energy pool (and make the hud display their energy levels) - It's really annoying to constantly run out of power when trying to use the beam / warp and so on... Having more energy, faster energy recharge and a visual display would help alot.

3 - Make the abilties more unique and useful for specific situations - The dash and stealth powers are pretty cool , and can probably stay, as long as the operator gets a bigger energy base. What needs to be reworked is the stun and beam mechanics. Right now the stun is the worse, as it doesn't really stun, can only be used a couple of times before depleting the energy and it's much weaker than let's say a single sonicor shot... I suggest giving making it so the stun does something like open enemies to finishers, perhaps with a small cooldown in between casts or something to offset the advantage or something of that nature.

For the beam weapon, I think it would be great if it had more range, you could spam it for longer and perhaps it had another feature. Ideally, I would put temporary armor stripping on the beam, that way it would be a tactical choice to switch to your operator briefly to strip the armor off a tough foe, for example.

4- More HP for the Operator and no energy loss when dying as him - The fact he only has 100 HP makes him get oneshot by pretty much everything, and when he dies, your frame loses it's energy... Due to this, it's litterally unwise to use the operator on most frames and in most situations, as you're gimping your energy pool.

5 - Void beam renders 70% of the current focus trees irrelevant - Focus schools have always been somewhat broken, in the sense where only notable passives were worth taking, and most people avoided all beam-oriented abilities because they raised the cooldown to ridiculously long times , meaning you could not even use said focus during regular mission running... But now that players can get a beam ability for free constantly, there is litterally no reason to invest .

[AM-Bunny]

I think there's a huge amount of potential for using Operators in new puzzle-based challenges to come. Imagine a new spy vault where you use Transference to hijack a drone (like we did to The Golden Maw) that can disable parts of the traps and such. I think it is a good addition, just not a fully realized one. Hopefully it will receive more attention than Focus has this past year.

From a lore standpoint, it is kind of strange. In Second Dream, Lotus was terrified that someone may learn the secret of the Tenno's true form since it was such a huge weakness for them. Now we're literally running around amidst Grineer crossfire without a care. Seems contrary to the tone set before.

[TARINunit9]

16 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

From a lore standpoint, it is kind of strange. In Second Dream, Lotus was terrified that someone may learn the secret of the Tenno's true form since it was such a huge weakness for them. Now we're literally running around amidst Grineer crossfire without a care. Seems contrary to the tone set before.

This, combined with the lack of penalty for "death" in Zariman kid form, makes me think that Zariman kid form is just more astral projecting like Focus

[AM-Bunny]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

This, combined with the lack of penalty for "death" in Zariman kid form, makes me think that Zariman kid form is just more astral projecting like Focus

If that was true, shouldn't The Operator still be in the Somatic Link chair when you use Transference on the Liset?