Nidus really needs to get reworked

[Soketsu]

... Dear DE, pls stop only listen to newer player who don't understand the consequence of asking for nerf for this or that... I've almost spend some money again on your game, but with this I don't, I hope the payers who beg you for a nerf will give you more money than me and other disappointed players

[Zerathos_Dagon]

2 minutes ago, Reedfish said:

after testing i can tell you that nullifers consuming stacks isn't that big of a deal, after killing 10 nullies with melee all stack up on each other i lose about eh 7-10 stacks on average. getting those back is easy if your teammates are not killing everything... the big issue is they messed his ult up with the change it is not giving stacks reliably. you literally cannot rely on maggots for stacks if you cant kill anything with your one now. that with the nulli is bad, if it wasn't bugged currently it wouldn't be as big of an issue as it seems

 

Ah ok, it seems I misjudged the change to the maggots then. Didn't have the chance to test tweaked Nidus yet, but that does sound quite frustrating indeed.

Still doesn't take away though that Nullifiers are horrendously designed units that have cursed Warframe with their unholy presence, and that they should be removed or reworked asap.

[DeMonkey]

17 minutes ago, Zerathos_Dagon said:

This would be almost the same as Nullifiers sapping energy from other Warframes for every second they are in that dreaded bubble.

Eh, arguably they do. Channeled/duration abilities need to be recast, meaning you have to use more energy than you otherwise would have. Biggest issue would be say Chroma casting #2 and #3 and immediately getting nullfied. 125 energy (base) down the drain. 

Against that, Nidus has it easy.

[SoulEchelon]

11 hours ago, KrazzyKracker said:

-Snip-

Well let's see these changes.

"Increased the base health of Nidus’ Maggots to 1k. " Oh my, they BUFFED his maggots. What a terrible change.

" Increased Nidus’ Mutation Stack consumption from 10 to 15 when knocked into a bleedout state/death. " You can get 10 stacks within 2 rounds of a basic Defense Mission. 'nuff said.

" Entering a Nullifier bubble will now drain down Mutation Stacks the longer you are in the bubble. " Do just like every other warframe does and kill them quickly. By the time Nullifiers truly become annoying in Survivals, Defenses, Sorties, etc, Nidus should have well over 50 stacks. Nullifier bubble drain would not be enough to completely drain him unless you're taking way too long to kill them. You can also try staying out of the bubbles when possible and pop them. Doesn't take long. There are a menagerie of weapons that can dispose of Nullifiers and their bubbles within a split second, even at high levels. Use them.

" Now to pop the Maggots you’ll need to cast Virulence on them and rejoice in your hard earned stack accumulation" You're supposed to spam Virulence anyways. There is very little change to gameplay other than you now can't sit there and do nothing while your maggots do everything for you. Oh goodness, you actually have to be engaged now! Oh lawdy!

 

 

[PsiWarp]

I can't test right now, but I have seen Maggots blow up when they touch Nullifier bubbles. Anyone can test to see if those explosions would count for Mutation hits on enemies outside and near the Nullifier bubble?

[Death_Master_]

At first i should say there is no reason for nullifiers to exist at all.

Now let's go to Nidus - main topic of this topic :)

What nidus did really need even before nerf  - bigger health pool.

After nerf there are just more balance problems and no solution to the only problem he had before nerf.

Not only gathering stacks becomes MUCH harder(no maggot stacks anymore) but losing them is now more often(contact with null or one-shot from enemy that could be killed by maggots) and bigger amount(15 drain on death).

So now instead of setting "relatively safe spot" and jumping back into fight Nidus must do "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111" all the time nonstop to build at least few stacks. 

Nidus was a nice support but now it's too expensive to link to allies, you risk losing all your stacks if you do that because of high stack drain on death. 

Instead or harmony of all 4 abilities we now have on-button frame  - press 1 all the time to win. Isn't it what DE tries(or at least declares to try) to fix on other frames? 

[MadHatHacker]

You can argue all day about whether or not the nerfs are severe enough to be damaging to the frame, but in the end, successfully arguming that something isn't bad isn't the same as successfully arguing that it's good.

I see no reason that Nidus should have been nerfed, especially while things like Simulor/Mirage exist.

[VCaptiion]

For me Nidus is mediocre and does not deserve a nerf.

Stacks: 50 hit for undying is already hard, especially there's one Mirage+Simulor user stealing your kills.
1: Unreliable, unresponsive, clumsy to use and pretty weak without 20+ stacks.
2: Deal no damage and weak CC, can't cast another one while it's on.
3: Boring mechanic, will you really use it?
4: You can't feel anything other than healing.

Let's count what stuff I think needs changing:

Nullifiers
Bursas (aka damage immunity & more EHP than Bombard)
Juggernauts (aka waste your time or get one-shotted in every infested mission)
Mutalist Osprey spamming stackable 100% proc toxin
Simulor spam
Archwing
Conclave
JV Raid
Useless Mag
Useless Ash
Useless Oberon
Limbo the inconsistency
Abandoned focus system but rage-inducing Lens rewards still exist
Buggy spawns that will never get fixed
Unnecessary stealth playstyle affinity nerf in a grind-based game
Glast Gambit - the worst quest shows nothing but lazy implementation
Tons of pointless resource drain aimed for 'veterans'.

[Soketsu]

I want to thanks the crying nerf squad, remember, no shield, 150 health base, 100 armor, his passive was the way to giving him the tank role of high level mission

thx to you, now a Nidus can completly die on a random nullifer globe juste cause he didn't see it from the closed door when the player mooving toward it, now tenno with nidus might not revive you cause you died in a nullifier area, I hope it is what you dreamed for.

oh and see you in one week for the next nerf hype train ♥, will it be the classic simulor+ mirage ? ember low lvl cleaner content ? or something exotic ?

Edited January 12, 2017 by Soketsu

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Wow, console doesn't even have nidus and he gets nerfed. Atleast I don't have to worry about farming him as fast as possible for an hour, like some PC players did.

At this rate, DE will discourage players to even use other warframes for anything but mastery.

Edited January 12, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(XBOX)OneOmniverse]

5 hours ago, Orthelius said:

He's going to be fine. 

keep telling urself that    o.o

[AzureTerra]

6 hours ago, -Voltage- said:

• Entering a Nullifier bubble will now drain down Mutation Stacks the longer you are in the bubble. 

This change is not so bad for normal use, but anyone who does hour+ fissures knows whats up with nullifiers. Like really DE? What is next, Scrambus/Combas do this too? It is painful on top of costing more stacks to use "undying mode" or whatever. This change is a straight up nerf and now punishes players who want to kill a nullifier.

Oh Dear. Such a shame it drains down the longer you stay in unlike everyone else who instantly loses any and all abilities they had running.

[Mr_RedSpark]

3 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

No, all ability-based tank frames can't enter the bubble to kill it since doing so would nuke their tankiness. Inaros is the only tank frame I can think of that can enter a bubble since he "only" loses the 100% armor bonus from Scarab Armor (leaving a still reasonable amount of armor, as well as his massive health pool), and even then I generally avoid entering bubbles.

Yes, that's right.. but no other frame gets drained to the point they can't recast it right away after... bare in mind the ONLY way to stay alive with his is with his stacks.

[Mr_RedSpark]

I feel like DE are listening to the wrong people when it comes to nerfs... they always listen to the people that never want a frame to be picked. those same people are always the ones to boast about how the nerf hasn't effected them because they're too mlg to admit they died.

i feel like ALL frames should be good in their own way..

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, SoulEchelon said:

 

Or Nullifiers were put in the game to actually add a little challenge. We steamroll every single enemy that's thrown at us, including Nullifiers. And every time DE tries to add something that gives us a challenge, people cry and scream about how suddenly they can't handle it. After watching these forums for 4 years, I've come to realize that's how this playerbase has evolved into over time. It's depressing. The fact that people still scream bloody murder when a warframe like Nidus is just SLIGHTLY hindered by Nullifiers proves my point.

Nope. Nullies were added as a bandaid solution forever ago because DE was horrible with frame design giving us so many frames that could aoe wipe. DE directly stated that nullies were their small fix till they could revisit frames. its been awhile and they've addressed that problem yet nullies still exist. Also to suggest that nullies are a challenge is laughable. if you've truly been around that long you should know there isn't a problem with handling them.  the problem is that they are not fun to fight.  DE created a game thats more than simple gunplay yet they make a faction that encourages that.

 

DE is capable of fun difficulty. the new sentients stalker and the kuva farming show this. why they continue with nullies is beyond me.

[Nyrakav]

Nidus already had a problem with snowballing, and you've made that problem so much worse by nerfing his 4. The Maggots not auto detonating made stack generation so much slower and made worse when playing with team mates.

I'm honestly fine with Undying requiring 15 stacks. It felt OP before but now it feels fine.

[DUSTCLOUD]

40 minutes ago, Death_Master_ said:

At first i should say there is no reason for nullifiers to exist at all.

Now let's go to Nidus - main topic of this topic :)

What nidus did really need even before nerf  - bigger health pool.

After nerf there are just more balance problems and no solution to the only problem he had before nerf.

Not only gathering stacks becomes MUCH harder(no maggot stacks anymore) but losing them is now more often(contact with null or one-shot from enemy that could be killed by maggots) and bigger amount(15 drain on death).

So now instead of setting "relatively safe spot" and jumping back into fight Nidus must do "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111" all the time nonstop to build at least few stacks. 

Nidus was a nice support but now it's too expensive to link to allies, you risk losing all your stacks if you do that because of high stack drain on death. 

Instead or harmony of all 4 abilities we now have on-button frame  - press 1 all the time to win. Isn't it what DE tries(or at least declares to try) to fix on other frames? 

Things Nidus needs.
- Restoration to original release to regain utility
- Larger HP or improved armor
- Undying message to take up less screen space, and NOT ZOOM IN SO YOU CANT SEE ANYTHING DURING THAT PHASE
- Ability to cast larva before duration expires
- Alternate methods to gain mutation stacks/Stack gain scales with power strength per +75%/Stack per kill
- Reduce/Remove cast time of Virulence
- Remove Virulence Rectangle. (Frost never needed a rectangle to see his ice wave)
- Give Virulence the same properties as Ice wave in scaling in range with respect to power range (Pre-cone buff).

Why Nidus was good on release and not now.
- *Was* the first self-balancing warframe [imo] (quickly builds stacks alone, but slowed while in a team. With few pitfalls to lose stacks the slow gain was feasible)
- Supported team and defense targets. Taking away the ability to heal defense targets "*slowly*" yet still have Sancti Magistar and Equinox's ultimate doing so in a much larger scale almost instantly for 5k-100k hp in a single burst seems like a strange out-of-combat healing punishment.
5k HP restore from max power strength Nidus 33-50s, 100k HP restore from Nidus? Come back in 16 minutes

Why Nidus was bad on release and is becoming progressively worse.
- He cannot build stacks well in a team. With the slow casting Virulence in respect to hitscan weapons and instant cast warframe abilities attacking the larva infused enemies his allies will consume the targets with ammo and powers before you get two clean casts off on the mob you roped.
No mutation stacks means no additional survivability and half his powers are permanently sealed until your allies are unable to manage the damage output on enemies.
Unfortunately, if nullifiers can strip stacks and simply falling off a ledge is enough to take away a stack then things are looking bad for the infested warframe.
Even today I hit an infinite loop where my frame landed and fell continuously about 20 times. If it was a Nidus after this patch, that's 20 stacks lost.

Why Nidus' nerf is just bad in totality.
-Can't build stacks fast enough in co-op play without high armor enemies
-Yet punished for not losing stacks quickly enough? 
-Still his conceptual structure is around his mutation stacks to gain access to his abilities, buffs, and team utility.


As a player base I say we can understand the need to not have a class/warframe stomp all over content with ease however the D.E. approach to balancing though nerfs is far from appealing and should be reconsidered in this and many other cases.
 

[artemisfortune]

Isn't that what nerfing is supposed to do? Make things that are too strong worse?

Besides, I still get to 50 stacks no problem, and have no problem keeping those stacks.

[PsiWarp]

Yeah. At least make enemies being eaten by Maggots count as 1 hit toward the Mutation gauge if killed by you (using weapons) or teammates (any way); when the targets die, maggots hop off to eat other enemies afterward (since they need to time out or get stabbed by Virulence to explode now). Even with this proposed change, maggot explosion will still be more effective since 1 Maggot can hit a lot of enemies in its radius when it detonates.

Right now teammates can basically "hit-steal" from your Maggots if you can't manage to use Virulence on them. That happens a lot if the team is actively killing and the least bit competent.

Also, it would be nice to show us how much damage maggot bites do in the Abilities menu. That bite damage also scales with Mutation, I'm curious if it benefits from Power Strength as well.

EDIT: WAIT. I just tried in Simulacrum. Level 50 Prod Crewmen being eaten by my Maggots (I only have 5 stacks, their bites don't do jack damage). One blast from Sancti Tigris kills a crewman, guess what happened? MAGGOT EXPLOSION. Tried it repeatedly, MORE EXPLOSIONS.

Someone please test this with other players killing your maggot snacks. Stacking just got real.

Edited January 12, 2017 by PsiWarp

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, AzureTerra said:

Oh Dear. Such a shame it drains down the longer you stay in unlike everyone else who instantly loses any and all abilities they had running.

Firstly you don't lose any ability active when walking into a nullifiers bubble, only those that affect your frame specifically, so say something like Frost's bubble or any of Vaubans projectiles were out, that are bound to the map are not to your frame specifically, they'd be fine so long as they weren't touched by a Nullifier bubble themselves. Secondly, Nidus was never exempt from any of those penalties, now he just has a secondary one tied what is already arguably a penalty by itself, which is pretty silly. 

[Retequizzle]

I get the impression that DE really only uses Nidus' first ability if they're not noticing a pacing difference pre- and post-patch when it comes to the maggots.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Necros says hi

[Thando]

Inaros called...

"what about my freaking armor buff, when forced to enter a nulli bubble?"

Nidus got it easy.

[malekas]

4 hours ago, Reedfish said:

did some simaris simulator testing, stacks seem to gain slower might just be me tbh. tested with level 20-125 nullies, just normal ones. drain in low levels is about 1 stack per a second or so, even when a bunch of nullies are on you. high level nullies seem to drain about the same stacks but in less than a second or so. taking about eh 5-7 of them ontop of me drained 10 stacks before i killed them. his ult is kinda... meh... now as stacks gained are buggy and you only get one from a enemy dying even if like 3 maggots explode on them and even then it doesn't give you stacks sometimes. also casting the ult on top of a previous one does not re-start the timer. so nullies are not as big of an issue as making his ult kinda useless now as it doesn't do much... enemies will be killed before the maggots kill anything it's better to just destroy your own maggots.

 

Edit: Just posting my findings, nulli thing doesn't seem as bad might be an issue but his ult is kinda... pointless?

This was my biggest problem with his nerf.

 

Nidus' stacks are precious to him, they're the only reason he's as good as he is. If he's going to spend stacks for an ability it better be worth. Spending 15 stacks for Undying, worth it. Spending 1 stack for Parasitic Link, worth it. Spending 3 stacks for a little CC and some healing, nope I'll hold onto my stacks thank you. Before the nerf there was good chance I would get those spent stacks back, and maybe more. Now there is a much lower chance of getting the stacks back, and the other parts of his 4 just don't feel worth 3 stacks.

 

Nidus already had a hard time getting stacks on any mission that wasn't endless. Nerfing one of the only two ways he had to get stacks was pointless overkill.

 

But hey, at least all of the whiners should be happy. By the time they're done complaining about nothing, Nidus will be just as good as Oberon, Hydroid, or Mag.

 

(On the bright side, I barely used Nidus because I wasn't a fan of his playstyle. He was really good, but I enjoy using the guns I bring instead of just mashing "1" all day)

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

2 minutes ago, Thando said:

Inaros called...

"what about my freaking armor buff, when forced to enter a nulli bubble?"

Nidus got it easy.

Pretty much lol

Spend half your health to bring it to 100% and one wrong step boom all gone. 😂

Maybe they should consider the drain for it over full removal.