Gas + Stealth = Broken, Is this Intended?

[shut]

3 hours ago, (PS4)leduanjohan said:

What is not clear is whether all DoT and AoE damage generated by a proc (gas, toxin, slash, fire, electricity) when stealth meleing are getting nerfed or only the last toxin DoT from gas proc not getting the extra x8 ?

DETaylor's post seemed pretty clear to me. All procs will deal 8x damage when stealthed, instead of the current 64x (Slash/Fire/Toxic/etc) or 512x (Gas).

[cursedmoon13]

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

@cursedmoon13

Please don't pretend to know my motivations. I'm an endurance runner and if you know anything about that play style then you'll know it's not for rewards.

I don't farm loot caves, I don't farm affinity caves. Sometimes I do Syndicate missions cuz I like to hunt for Easter eggs.

The only reason I was on Akkad was to farm extra credits in anticipation of the Ayatan statue change so I could quickly sell off my 180 statues as Endo once they no longer cost credits. Something that will never happen again because I'm rid of them.

I haven't cared about "the grind" in at least 2 years, if I ever really cared in the first place.

if you have trouble believing that feel free to look to the top left corner at 00:06 of the Mag video I posted.

If you read my post carefully, you should see that I didn't pretend to know anything. I believe I made it fairly clear that the whole thing was speculation based on the information given.

Then, you go on to say a few things that I could swear support my assertions more than your own:

1. You used this "bug" to farm on Akkad for your own reasons, and anticipate never doing it again, so you don't need it anymore.

2. You apparently have 17M+ credits and 47k+ platinum, and don't care about "the grind". Again, you don't need to use this exploit, clearly, since you are swimming in currency, but who's to say how you obtained your wealth? Maybe you utilized the bug you are now railing against, as you've admitted to doing at least once before, maybe you didn't. Regardless, now that you sit at or near the top, you don't need it, and you appear to look down on those who either need or want some advantage to acquire the resources you seem to take for granted.

 

As you've said, I don't know your motivations. Maybe you never needed something like this (except to help you get some statues off your hands, amiright?). I'm sure in your eyes you're just trying to make the game better through balancing the end game content to create a better challenge. But please understand that your idea of balance is likely at least partially shifted by all the things you've acquired that many don't have. You might say, "just put on some arcanes and it's easy," while I don't even have a single arcane, let alone one that fits my playstyle. There are so many things in this game that the "elite" take for granted, and talk about in the forums in terms of X trivializing Y, while newer players look on and wonder "how do I even get X in the first place?"

Anyway, this is turning into a bit of a rant, so:

tl;dr there are many different people playing a game like this, and it bothers me when "elites" or challenge seekers demand nerfs to the things that make the grind or difficulty curve tolerable for others.

[Xzorn]

@cursedmoon13

Speculation, Guestimate, Pretend. There's not much difference when your speculation is based on other speculation.

The only facts you've pulled is that at some point I was on Akkad farming Credits and that I made a post on the forums.  From this you've speculated I used this to my advantage to gain my necessary loot needs before deciding to post. I don't want other players to have my advantage and that the only reason I made a post about this was to take it away from other players. At what point does this become a storybook instead of theory?

If anything my needless nature should show an unbiased opinion on the subject. I want nothing more than a well designed Damage system that follows it's own rules. As I've said to others, this is not the first time I've posted about this.

Like many other posts here you attempt to attack my character instead of presenting a proper argument about the Gas exploit so I'm not sure what attitude you expect in response. Literally nothing productive will come from this conversation.

[cursedmoon13]

@Xzorn

I think you missed the part where I all but said that your heart was in the right place. Personally, I don't think needlessness is the point at which one becomes unbiased, but rather the opposite end of the spectrum from need where bias is concerned, meaning unbiased would sit somewhere between. I was running through your past activity checking out your story about "posting about gas before" when I found this:

 

Slash Vs. Toxin Stealth DoT

in Players helping Players

Posted January 20 · Edited January 20 by Xzorn · Report post

---

Slash, Toxic and Gas status are all affected by melee stealth multipliers.

Toxic is not really a comparison to the other two however the Toxic DoT produced by Gas and the Bleed produced by Slash status are pretty evenly matched against armor.

The reason for this is because Gas procs double dip into stealth multipliers producing a highly amplified DoT effect compared to Slash.

When comparing the flat damage Bleed does not come close to Gas Status however when considering armor mitigation they're fairly similar.

In my Testing against lvl 145 Alloy armor I saw fairly similar DoT numbers form both. Theoretically Bleed would eventually win on a single target however Gas status is an AoE DoT effect with an additional AoE direct damage based on a higher percentage value and both of which receive stealth multipliers.

 

To me, when combined with this:

47 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

  On 2/27/2017 at 2:24 PM, Xzorn said:

There's some truth in what @The_Discussion posted in that we should always have alternative options. Though there's nothing wrong in a best option under circumstances / factions. In my experience Slash is not actually the end-all status proc either. Corrosive procs will beat Slash procs in kill rate after a certain point due to enemy raw HP scaling. Running Lasting Sting will allow Bleeds to remain effective but bleeds are also not improved by most buffs in the game unlike a raw elemental Corrosive weapon would be. But this is also only against armored enemies. Not all enemies.

may actually be the best argument not to nerf gas damage. At least not yet. Honestly, as much as I love this game, the meta is pretty screwed up. Certain BS enemies in Corpus and Infested factions cause the majority of players to focus solely on the Grineer, so the "best" damage, if you ask, will generally be whatever works the best against armor (or just use 4xCP and use viral instead. Am I the only one who finds that really boring?).  As it stands, that ends up being Corrosive or Viral, and Slash (or maybe puncture?) When I found out how crazy Gas damage was with stealth multipliers, I thought, "finally, somewhere Gas damage is the best choice." There's almost no reason to use it on anything other than a melee weapon, and then only because it suddenly becomes amazing when you become unseen.

As many have already stated (or tried to state, as I read it) in this thread, it's about encouraging variety in weapon and damage choices, and since you yourself said:

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I want nothing more than a well designed Damage system that follows it's own rules.

I hope you can appreciate that.

Also, I didn't mean any of what I said as a personal attack, but there's not much that makes me angrier than those people who like to say "this game is too easy, make it harder." In my experience, those people are usually either: A) way more skilled than the majority of people who play the game, and want to be able to have fun, too. B) People who have already acquired all the broken stuff, have gotten bored with breezing through using said broken stuff, and have no self control to simply stop using the broken stuff to challenge themselves. or C) Posers who want to look/sound cool by bragging about how "easy" the game is. To be honest, I thought you were in category B, and assuming I was wrong, I apologize.

[Xzorn]

@cursedmoon13

Thank you for a thought provoking and reasonable response. There's been too few on this thread.

After reading what you said I'm forced to agree that in my attempts to be unbiased through a lack of need; I've in turn created a bias outlook when it comes to the grind. I would still claim that I've tried to keep unbiased when it comes to my intentions however. I simply want a Damage system with solid rules and variety of choices that challenge you to look deeper with every idea.

I agree that Gas is in a strange and rather underwhelming state on it's own but I don't think it should need to violate rules in order to achieve validity. Armor is certainly the larger obstacle to overcome for health types. I made a recent post on an armor thread about how I more feel the other health types are severely lacking than armor being completely broken. Armor is one of the health types that challenge you to look deeper into the damage system. Proc Weight, Status Trigger per second, Avg Bleed Damage, ect. Things many players never bother to learn about.

I've had a few thoughts on how to improve Gas but nothing concrete. One was to allow Toxic DoTs to bypass armor (and shields? Less per tick?), remove the interaction which allows Toxic damage to bypass shields and make the AoE effect of Gas actually do Gas damage instead of Toxic. This would give elemental weapons an armor bypassing damage type and it would allow Corpus Shields to actually matter while giving it a little boost against Infested since Toxic Ancients would only help resist the DoT effect not the AoE. Together with Slash DoTs you'd greatly improve performance against armor but at the same time, it could make Corrosive a useless status if the DoTs are too strong. It's messy to rework a damage/status type to say the least but like I said in my first comeback reply. I hope to see the Damage system see more attention in the future.

I plan on continuing to do my part in that by pointing out flaws and suggesting ideas. Like many of us do.

[[DE]Taylor]

14 hours ago, (PS4)leduanjohan said:

Wait, I don't get it. What is actually not intended?

As I understand it, this happens to all DoT and AoE damage generated by a proc (gas, toxin, slash, fire, electricity) when stealth meleing. They all gain an extra x8 multiplier resulting in a net x64 multiplier. Gas is more powerful because of how it works: gas procs toxin in an AoE and in turn that toxin damage procs a toxin DoT. Since all this occurs during stealth, it is understandable that the toxin DoT also gains a x8 multiplier resulting in a net x512 multiplier. It never occurred to me this was a bug. Am I getting it wrong?

What is not clear is whether all DoT and AoE damage generated by a proc (gas, toxin, slash, fire, electricity) when stealth meleing are getting nerfed or only the last toxin DoT from gas proc not getting the extra x8 ?

The proc ticks themselves will no longer be affected by stealth multipliers.

[Dragazer]

14 hours ago, (PS4)leduanjohan said:

Wait, I don't get it. What is actually not intended?

As I understand it, this happens to all DoT and AoE damage generated by a proc (gas, toxin, slash, fire, electricity) when stealth meleing. They all gain an extra x8 multiplier resulting in a net x64 multiplier. Gas is more powerful because of how it works: gas procs toxin in an AoE and in turn that toxin damage procs a toxin DoT. Since all this occurs during stealth, it is understandable that the toxin DoT also gains a x8 multiplier resulting in a net x512 multiplier. It never occurred to me this was a bug. Am I getting it wrong?

What is not clear is whether all DoT and AoE damage generated by a proc (gas, toxin, slash, fire, electricity) when stealth meleing are getting nerfed or only the last toxin DoT from gas proc not getting the extra x8 ?

How damage procs work is they take a portion of your weapon base damage as proc damage. 

EX: Melee weapon deals 100 per swing base damage. Under the 8x stealth multiplier, that would be 800 damage. Slash procs 35% of that damage would be 280 which you would see from the slash tick. All of these parts are intended.

 

The bug comes when the ticks are counted as another source of damage and get another 8x damage multiplier in total making it 64x damage or in this example 2240 damage.

 

I mean you could argue that the proc did in fact come from the melee weapon, so should technically be getting that extra 8x multiplier on proc ticks

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Dragazer

[Sannidor]

24 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

The proc ticks themselves will no longer be affected by stealth multipliers.

Like, at all? No x16, x8, x4?

My sides.

You really have no idea about damage control. This should be implemented with fixes on all fields - enemies armor scaling, useless pure fire damage.

Please realize it's not only about the nerf, it's as equal about the fact you addressed it as "not intended" and all negative connotations coming with that.  

Looking forward into state of things to come. 

[Dragazer]

2 minutes ago, Sannidor said:

Like, at all? No x16, x8, x4?

My sides.

You really have no idea about damage control. This should be implemented with fixes on all fields - enemies armor scaling, useless pure fire damage.

Please realize it's not only about the nerf, it's as equal about the fact you addressed it as "not intended" and all negative connotations coming with that.  

Looking forward into state of things to come. 

Read my post above proc still get 8x dmg due to melee weapon itself getting 8x damage, but the ticks will not receive another 8x multiplier.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Dragazer

[Evanescent]

39 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

The proc ticks themselves will no longer be affected by stealth multipliers.

You mean like they will scale from the inflicted damage under the multiplier? Like if i hit a guy with 4 damage, I get 32 damage on him from stealth and the ticks are based on that 32 damage?

You folks need to take a look at all the elementals. Some are just weak (see: magnetic and blast) and thus almost never used. Please don't just nerf one type and call it a day. This is a chance to fix the usability of all the elemental combinations.

[shut]

2 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

The proc ticks themselves will no longer be affected by stealth multipliers.

This reads like it should answer everyone's questions, but I think it's kind of funny how unclear it still is (because of how proc tick damage is calculated).

 

Using @Evanescent's example, let's say we have a melee weapon that does 4 damage. When you say that proc ticks won't be affected by stealth multipliers, does this mean:

1) proc ticks won't have stealth multipliers applied, but still scale from the stealthed hit that procced in the first place (so the weapon does 32 damage, and the proc scales from that 32 damage)?
or:
2) proc ticks won't have stealth multipliers applied, and will not scale from the stealthed hit that procced in the first place (so the weapon does 32 damage, but the proc only scales from 4 damage)?

Edited March 2, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Reifnir]

2 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

The proc ticks themselves will no longer be affected by stealth multipliers.

Please elaborate. 

Will this only affect Gas procs or will it also kill the damage of Slash procs?

If it's the latter, please reconsider as it's will break more things than it will fix. 

[Mk.1]

Another day passes in Warframe.

More fun ruined.

 

[(XBOX)Dr Desflurane]

This is upsetting.  Stealth gas procs were a nice solution to ridiculous armor scaling without having to resort to 4xCP.   This had been in the game forever, why is this an issue now? 

[Thanos]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Dr Desflurane said:

This is upsetting.  Stealth gas procs were a nice solution to ridiculous armor scaling without having to resort to 4xCP.   This had been in the game forever, why is this an issue now? 

Bc people gotta complain about everything. If something does ridiculously high numbers. It must be nerfed!

Forget that it is a game and being overpowered is fun. /s

Unfortunately this is just another day on the forums. :/

[almostsurelymarkovian]

1 hour ago, MirageXV said:

Bc people gotta complain about everything. If something does ridiculously high numbers. It must be nerfed!

Forget that it is a game and being overpowered is fun. /s

Unfortunately this is just another day on the forums. :/

Maiming Strike is overpowered but that isn't being "fixed."

[Dragazer]

2 hours ago, almostsurelymarkovian said:

Maiming Strike is overpowered but that isn't being "fixed."

welp RIP maiming strike now.

[almostsurelymarkovian]

19 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

welp RIP maiming strike now.

With the recent Acolyte event I'm sure DE would have nerfed Maiming Strike if they intended to...

[Reifnir]

13 minutes ago, almostsurelymarkovian said:

With the recent Acolyte event I'm sure DE would have nerfed Maiming Strike if they intended to...

Stealth multipliers for status procs have been around since what, late 2013/early 2014? 

DE doesn't often react to things that are broken, but they do react (sometimes, at least) to whiners on forums. Thanks to this particular whiner/SJW we're looking at status weapons losing all viability in endgame now, because of the usual "behead first, ask questions later" policy. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Reifnir

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

DE, you guys really need to take a hard look at your endgame, the absolutely terrible scaling that's currently in place in it , and realize that what we players use to handle such content, we use for a reason... Because it gets results and it works. In an endgame where enemies become ridiculous bullet sponge with so much armor to negate all damage and where you get oneshotted by everything, players navigate and find ways, techniques, loopholes to make builds works, to make these experiences viables, to actually be able to solo and survive hard content.

So when I see you go all "we didn't know about something that was in the game for years", let's nerf it because a few people complained... I'm speechless... Especially when you propose nerfing every single elemental interaction with stealth multiplier... Who cares if it wasn't intended, it's been in the game for years, the whole endgame was structured around these mechanics, and now you want to take them out, even though they have been an integral part of so many frames, so many builds over the years... All this without fixing the underlying problems.

We need proper endgame scaling for all factions. We need damage types with clear advantages and not a system where everyone uses the same elements... And you need to respect player builds and player niches. Changing this now without fixing the scaling, fixing all these problems and imbalances everyone's been complaining about for years, that's really a bad solution, period.

You didn't even know about the issue, yet it's been the cornerstone of countless builds for like four years... And now, with no hindsight and reflection, you just want to "fix it " like that, not realizing the ripple effect.... It'll kill numerous builds, will render numerous elements absolutely useless, will make it dramatically harder to survive in endgame content, will basically kill most of the status based weapons, will render most status mods somewhat useless. All this because a few streamers showed that you can kill simulacrum enemies fast with a couple of specific, niche builds.

Edited March 3, 2017 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[almostsurelymarkovian]

8 hours ago, Reifnir said:

Stealth multipliers for status procs have been around since what, late 2013/early 2014? 

DE doesn't often react to things that are broken, but they do react (sometimes, at least) to whiners on forums. Thanks to this particular whiner/SJW we're looking at status weapons losing all viability in endgame now, because of the usual "behead first, ask questions later" policy. 

Maiming Strike is so powerful that it's rarely worth using anything besides melee weapons. When you can easily red crit with a weapon with 5% base crit chance, it's clear that something's not right.

[shut]

11 hours ago, almostsurelymarkovian said:

Maiming Strike is so powerful that it's rarely worth using anything besides melee weapons. When you can easily red crit with a weapon with 5% base crit chance, it's clear that something's not right.

"Easily red crit" is a huge understatement. If you used a melee weapon with 0% base crit chance, Maiming Strike + Blood Rush would give it a 535% crit chance at 3x combo.

[AbhijitSM]

On 2/27/2017 at 11:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Hey guys, it looks like the proc gas damage is also being affected by the stealth modifier. This definitely is not intended! 

Thanks for the report, moving to PC Bugs. 

Really ? Looks like you were just looking for someone to complain about it to justify your reason for the nerf. Please dont say that you were just unaware about this all this time which looks like a very difficult reason to buy. It really looks like you dont seem to playtest or play your own game before implementing said mechanics which is kind of upsetting. 

[shut]

29 minutes ago, AbhijitSM said:

Really ? Looks like you were just looking for someone to complain about it to justify your reason for the nerf. Please dont say that you were just unaware about this all this time which looks like a very difficult reason to buy. It really looks like you dont seem to playtest or play your own game before implementing said mechanics which is kind of upsetting. 

I don't understand the "omg DE doesnt playtest their own game" argument.
This bug has been in the game for more than three years, yet the playerbase as a collective ^{(as opposed to the small handful of individuals who've known about this for ages)} only figured it out less than six months ago. And even then, it only became truly common knowledge after U19.6.3, when stealth multipliers were changed to no longer disappear on hit while Invisible (meaning that Loki/Ash/Ivara/Naramon could take full advantage of the bug with the press of a button, instead of just Excal/Inaros/etc).

 

If it took tens of millions of players that bloody long to figure out how the interaction worked, is it really reasonable to assume that the <200 devs (who have work to do, and cannot afford to spend hours and hours testing out weirdly-specific builds for the worst element in the game) should've known about it beforehand?

Edited March 4, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Vrgolin]

On 27/2/2017 at 2:46 PM, Legion216 said:

This absurd notion of "shhhhh don't ask or they'll nerf it" is pretty mind numbing to me.

Oh do you? Well guess what? OP asked, and TA-freaking-DA! It's getting nerfed.