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Xzorn

Gas + Stealth = Broken, Is this Intended?

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As some players have learned Gas is an unmatched damage type when using melee stealth multipliers.

This has been going on for so long that I've found myself in arguments with other players on whether or not the interaction of stealth multipliers and Gas status procs are actually intended or a bug.

To catch up those who may not know Gas status effects currently dips into Stealth multiplier's x8 bonus damage multiple times with each proc. The initial damage is given x8 damage, the resulting proc is once again increased by stealth and finally the DoT effect is further increased by stealth multipliers. The result is roughly x8, x64 and x512 respectively from a single Gas proc.

I am currently seeking an official response on this interaction as from my perspective it's created a grossly overpowered damage option that undermines the damage system in regards to damage types and faction health types. You simply always pick Gas when you're stealth, regardless of the situation.

A few examples of the damage output achievable solo from stealth and Gas status are below. I say Solo because I've been capable of far greater numbers with a damage buff such as Nova's M-Prime, Roar, ect. These pics are without any damage buffs.

180k Gas AoE Damage:

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1FKN7xE.jpg

A Comparison of Stealth and Non-Stealth number: 7650 Toxic DoT tick increased to 168k

Spoiler

Ea9TBFM.jpg

Gas Toxic DoT on lvl 145 Napalm (98% Damage Reduction)

Spoiler

GkBJUp4.jpg

 

It's my opinion that even if this interaction is intended; that it should be removed as I previously stated it undermines the damage system for any stealth capable frame and currently any Naramon users.  I further believe that stealth damage multipliers need a serious look as Gas is not the only situation which takes excess advantage of this mechanic. Still I would appreciate any official response that either Devs or Forum users can point me to.

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It's easy to get crazy numbers in the simulacrum, but in practice stealth is harder to pulloff (alarms, enemy alertness, aoe abilities, energy costs, etc). It rewards players for being stealthy and use a damage type that gets little use. I don't see a huge problem here...

While the damage could use a small scaling back, I don't think its the biggest issue out there in terms of damage types. 

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28 minutes ago, drakegt said:

It's easy to get crazy numbers in the simulacrum, but in practice stealth is harder to pulloff (alarms, enemy alertness, aoe abilities, energy costs, etc). It rewards players for being stealthy and use a damage type that gets little use. I don't see a huge problem here...

While the damage could use a small scaling back, I don't think its the biggest issue out there in terms of damage types. 

 

After you're stealth for 3 seconds you gain stealth multipliers regardless of the enemy's alert status you can also force this with Blind, Savage Silence, ect.

Before they nerfed Lecta I was doing 60-80 waves on Akkad with others and getting 2 million Gas procs on a base Power Strength Chroma with M-Prime active. Toxic Ancient's Toxic resist aura doesn't matter, Ancient Healer's aura doesn't matter. Still one-shotting lvl 170 Infested like they're lvl 30.

The problem lies in how it undermines every mechanic in the game. Target priorities don't matter, damage types, health types. None of it matters.

Gas just wins.

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Gas has always been extremely powerful in warframe. Slap it on a Lanka with the innate electricity and a Mag, slaughter anything. Slap gas and whatever else on Zenistar with Ivara, Wukong or and other stealth frame (yes I count cloudwalk as stealth) and it hits for a lot of damage. Just experiment, gas isn't end all be all for elements. Maybe it needs to be reworked in terms of enemy armor/resistances, but that's all.

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14 minutes ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

Gas has always been extremely powerful in warframe. Slap it on a Lanka with the innate electricity and a Mag, slaughter anything. Slap gas and whatever else on Zenistar with Ivara, Wukong or and other stealth frame (yes I count cloudwalk as stealth) and it hits for a lot of damage. Just experiment, gas isn't end all be all for elements. Maybe it needs to be reworked in terms of enemy armor/resistances, but that's all.

I think what he's pointing out is that it doesn't matter how much resistance enemies have, it's still obscene damage. Gas doesn't even get bonuses to the damage it does, and making enemy armor tougher just makes it that much more ridiculous for everything else. The problem is NOT that enemies don't have enough resistances to it, but that gas is simply too overpowered for anything short of a 100% immunity to slow it down (see the napalm tests).

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5 minutes ago, owendawgx said:

I think what he's pointing out is that it doesn't matter how much resistance enemies have, it's still obscene damage. Gas doesn't even get bonuses to the damage it does, and making enemy armor tougher just makes it that much more ridiculous for everything else. The problem is NOT that enemies don't have enough resistances to it, but that gas is simply too overpowered for anything short of a 100% immunity to slow it down (see the napalm tests).

I agree with this, but I'm just trying to think of a way that people actually use Gas as a viable element. Almost every build on a weapon is corrosive because everyone hates playing corpus with those nullifiers and grineer melt to armor loss. I've only really seen gas elements on Zenistar, Pox and Lanka, no other weapons really benefit so much from it over any of the other possible combos of status effects.

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32 minutes ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

Gas has always been extremely powerful in warframe. Slap it on a Lanka with the innate electricity and a Mag, slaughter anything. Slap gas and whatever else on Zenistar with Ivara, Wukong or and other stealth frame (yes I count cloudwalk as stealth) and it hits for a lot of damage. Just experiment, gas isn't end all be all for elements. Maybe it needs to be reworked in terms of enemy armor/resistances, but that's all.

 

It's Gas' unique interaction with Stealth multipliers that falls in question, not it's synergy with certain weapons or frames.

The interaction is not seen in any other damage type or weapon setup outside melee and using stealth multipliers.

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Just now, Xzorn said:

 

It's Gas' unique interaction with Stealth multipliers that falls in question, not it's synergy with certain weapons or frames.

The interaction is not seen in any other damage type or weapon setup outside melee and using stealth multipliers.

And that's why it's not a big deal. What frames actually 100% keep stealth for long enough to actually want to focus on only using gas as their main element? Loki, Ash (if you're a weird builder who went for duration), Ivara with her prowl and navigate, and Wukong tossing the Zenistar and cloudwalking. Not many actual situations involve the entire team going invis to gain stealth bonuses, and a lot of players will agree with me that stealth is quite poor in quality in this game.

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55 minutes ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

And that's why it's not a big deal. What frames actually 100% keep stealth for long enough to actually want to focus on only using gas as their main element? Loki, Ash (if you're a weird builder who went for duration), Ivara with her prowl and navigate, and Wukong tossing the Zenistar and cloudwalking. Not many actual situations involve the entire team going invis to gain stealth bonuses, and a lot of players will agree with me that stealth is quite poor in quality in this game.

 

Melee is already quite powerful on it's own these days. Why use any other means of killing if Gas + Stealth is going to be drastically more productive?

Any frame with Naramon can do it, Equinox, Excalibur, Banshee, Inaros, Valkyr, Mirage, Oberon. There are quite a few frames who can either go stealth or force unaware status.

An entire team can gain stealth multipliers without using stealth at all. A Savage Silence Banshee for instance with any sort of CC effect such as Heat or Electric status procs will open enemies to stealth multipliers during the status effect animation. This setup is esp easy to take advantage of with Zenistar but this is more about the last part of my post where the stealth multiplier damage mechanic should be given a serious look.

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On 2/3/2017 at 10:27 PM, Xzorn said:

Toxic Ancient's Toxic resist aura doesn't matter, Ancient Healer's aura doesn't matter. Still one-shotting lvl 170 Infested like they're lvl 30.

Really? Then it sure wasn't because of gas.

xaCbG0Y.jpg

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I always wondered if this kind of interaction is intended or not. Slash gets the same kind of benefits to a lower extent.

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Hey guys, it looks like the proc gas damage is also being affected by the stealth modifier. This definitely is not intended! 

Thanks for the report, moving to PC Bugs. 

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33 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Hey guys, it looks like the proc gas damage is also being affected by the stealth modifier. This definitely is not intended! 

Thanks for the report, moving to PC Bugs. 

There's only one way you could not Know about this sooner - DE does not play their own game. At all. Those who pretend like Becca, Megan or Glen don't care about any mechanics of progress and achieve results by random chance, admiring colorful flashy things on the screen like pachinko addicts.

This is serious.

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18 minutes ago, Sannidor said:

There's only one way you could not Know about this sooner - DE does not play their own game. At all. Those who pretend like Becca, Megan or Glen don't care about any mechanics of progress and achieve results by random chance, admiring colorful flashy things on the screen like pachinko addicts.

This is serious.

As far as I know, Steve RECENTLY FINALLY started to play this game. I don't know why he has missed to play it until recently.

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34 minutes ago, Sannidor said:

There's only one way you could not Know about this sooner - DE does not play their own game. At all. Those who pretend like Becca, Megan or Glen don't care about any mechanics of progress and achieve results by random chance, admiring colorful flashy things on the screen like pachinko addicts.

This is serious.

TBH, I wouldn't have noticed neither. And the way the OP says this:

On 3/2/2017 at 9:28 PM, Xzorn said:

This has been going on for so long that I've found myself in arguments with other players on whether or not the interaction of stealth multipliers and Gas status procs are actually intended or a bug.


mean no one brought it to attention anyways.

It's pretty easy to overlook this stuff when you have a PvE game where no one's actually getting the downsides of it.

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43 minutes ago, Sannidor said:

There's only one way you could not Know about this sooner - DE does not play their own game. At all.

Nor does anyone check youtube videos.

 

 

 

 

 

Or bunches of distantObserver's vids.
etc. etc.

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2 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Nor does anyone check youtube videos.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Or ~70% of distantObserver's vids.

etc. etc.

Now THIS is something else.

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theres also a glitch i got with my vaykor sydon where if i use the blind ability on it, it gives a guarenteed gas proc from my gas damage on my sydon, i don't think this was to be intended either 

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