Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[ChameleonBro]

54 minutes ago, -Amaterasu- said:

Limbo is invulnerable to outside sources while in the rift so this isn't really an alternative when we don't know how his rift walk works, there's seemingly no duration on it as far as the devstream went and they said they were working out any energy costs there might be so since it's his passive I'm guessing it's going to be a channeled thing which means you basically end up being old Valk but better, all of your powers failing on you is a reasonable risk for trying to push the limits too far, again as long as they give you fair warning.

Limbo has extremely high survivability in the rift so they need some way to get him out that isn't some cheesy "x enemy is immune to the rift" or nullifiers so this seems more than fair to me as a downside, even if it does happen I'm sure it won't be for too long so you just have to get slightly good at doging bullets for a bit, there are plenty of squishy frames that get along just fine without the rift so I'm sure you can last a couple of seconds at worst and if not then it's balanced because limbo is capable of dying.

I don't think you really understand what I am trying to say. It's not that you exceed the limits, it's that the ENEMIES do it for you. And what's the point of having an ability which you can't even use Especially in high level contet Where there are enemies all around the map. Yes you are invincible in the rift, but you win't be if you even try to use his stasis (Like I said especially in high levelk content). And belive me Limbo can be easily one shot in these situations. I played more than enough with him to know that. So sudden ability shut down will defineately kill you. Also this limit will esentially be the death of long range Limbo builds which I know a lot of people love.

Edited February 19, 2017 by ChameleonBro

[Redthirst]

2 hours ago, Biviho said:

First, sorry for my bad english ^^"

I have a suggestion to help teamplay and reduce the selfishness of limbo:

Limbo can expand he's ability to walk in and out the rift to he's teammate.

When a player, that is in a party with limbo, attack an enemie inside the rift, he will automatically enter the rift, the opposite if it is inside and the enemie is outside. Like now, rolling will remove a player from the rift.

This can help avoid limbo to prevents he's teammate from play.

Also...i continue to don't understand why one in the rift can't pick up item...i know it's because what the rift is...but this is a really annoying thing.

If they add your ideas, there will be no difference between Rift and normal plane.

[-Amaterasu-]

24 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

I don't think you really understand what I am trying to say. It's not that you exceed the limits, it's that the ENEMIES do it for you. And what's the point of having an ability which you can't even use Especially in high level contet Where there are enemies all around the map. Yes you are invincible in the rift, but you win't be if you even try to use his stasis (Like I said especially in high levelk content). And belive me Limbo can be easily one shot in these situations. I played more than enough with him to know that. So sudden ability shut down will defineately kill you. Also this limit will esentially be the death of long range Limbo builds which I know a lot of people love.

What I'm saying is you have no idea what that limit will be or how it will work but the effects are perfectly fair, I was simply trying to put it in a lore perspective. You can physically overdo the limit yourself by using too many projectiles (or at least the ability will only allow so many because potatoes) as for enemies you have no way of knowing how many will be allowed but it seems more than fair to have a limit since time stop shouldn't be your go to ability it should be an emergency thing, you already have control of what goes in and out of the rift so if you're having that constantly turned on then there needs to be a risk.

The ability itself is still perfectly usable with that risk intact since you have total control over what's in the rift, if you're worried about the state of your cataclysm just release either of the powers based on the situation, if you're getting too many enemies inside then just stop using banish, it's all about managing if you don't have to worry about being shot at then you need to worry about keeping your shield up.

[Tesseract7777]

I gotta say most of the changes I could at least live with, but I am actually increasingly bothered by the whole "get kicked out of the rift thing" when using stasis, the more I think about it. I just really don't like it. Vauban has an upper limit on his Bastille, lots of abilities have enemy caps, and can only get so high even with duration/strength mods for reasons of balance (not of gameplay balance, but balancing out people who run toasters). I've never had an issue with that, but those abilities don't punish you if you accidentally go past your duration.

I feel like this is the one sticking point that could make or break this rework. I think having a penalty makes no sense at all. Just stop having stasis affect enemies + projectiles once it reaches the cap, just like Vauban's Bastille doesn't end its duration and take Vauban's shields away if more than the cap enters bastille, it just stops affecting enemies beyond the cap. Why would Limbo be any different than most abilities that have a cap? Why should be be punished by not being able to use his signature thing (the rift)? 

Even if we were to have some penalty, it needs to not be being forced out of our own rift system, that our frame uniquely uses. And honestly, again I don't see how a penalty even makes sense here, because it is not something we can really control. That's the big issue here. It is supposed to include both ally and enemy projectiles and amount of enemies, how in a fast paced game like Warframe am I supposed to somehow keep track of that and avoid it going past the limit? It seems like there are so many factors totally beyond my control here, and I am being punished for something I can't really do anything about. And worse yet, punished by taking the rift away from me, my own unique mechanic. 

The more I think about it the more I think that particular mechanic of Stasis is a terrible, terrible idea. 

Here are a short list of notes on what I think needs to be done here: 

Passive: Allow us some sort of option to enter/exit the rift with our new "roll" thing without moving if we don't want jump forward every time we exit the rift -- some kind of momentum killer so we just sort of dash in place. 

Current Passive: We do get to keep his current passive as well, which gives him increased holster, reload and movement speed in the rift right? Please say yes. Plenty of other frames have multiple passives for very reasons, it would be sad to lose this functionality, when the rift roll is more a part of who he is, than a passive. 

Banish: Allow players to tap/hold for aoe or single target, this has been suggested by so many people, and it only adds options and gives players more control. 

Stasis: Take away the rift cooldown penalty if we go past the cap, and simply make it stop working past the cap or something. This adds an extremely punishing possibility for something we really don't have proper control over as players. Even if having a penalty made sense (it didn't, no other frame goes through this), taking us out of the rift is the worst way to punish a Limbo, and is going to be fatal way too often. 

Replacement for Rift Surge: This ability actually looks really cool, but I am not sure how helpful the extra cataclysms are going to be. I guess time will tell. My other concern here is trolling potential. Cataclysm already has the potential to be extremely trolly due to people's inability to pick up drops. In the dev build we watched Limbo could pick up drops in Cataclysm but not in regular rift. This makes sense and would be a good change, please do not reverse this. Cataclysm needs a reason to be up, and if we have extra mini cataclysm up too, some of which are basically popping up when we didn't plan, it will be harder for us as Limbo's to control how long those mini ones last -- they are sort of outside our control to turn off at will for drops like our big one. So either allow picking up of drops in Cataclysm in final build, or consider dropping the mini cataclysm idea and replacing it with something else entirely. 

Also, Rift Torrent augment: From my understanding the Rift Surge damage bonus is just... gone. Could we perhaps retool the old Rift Surge augment to fit his new three, and have it provide some kind of damage amplification based on enemies in the rift that is similar to the old Rift Surge numbers? It would be sad to see that ability to amplify damage permanently taken away. 

Cataclysm: Please, make the whole "pick up drops in Cataclysm" like we saw in the dev build, an actual reality. If not, the mini-cataclysm are going to be an issue, like I said earlier. And too many people will still hate him because they can't get drops in his bubble, and Frost will still be the 90% of the time option for Defense. 

Again, I am not suggesting we should be able to hack while normally in the rift, or pick up datamasses, etc. However, if we are in Cataclysm, we have basically made a rift pocket and dragged the entire area into the rift (logically this makes sense because we can use it to protect defense objectives), so we should be able to pick up drops that fall inside it while fighting inside it. 

Other thoughts: Please consider doing an audit on Cataclysmic Continuum it is a thoroughly useless augment in its current form. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[Tesseract7777]

5 hours ago, MokutoBunshi said:

2 things this thread seems to agree on.

 

Tap 1 for individual banish, Hold 1 for group.

Random cataclysms that make rift space you are unconscious of may be a bad idea.

 

]\'[

I would be okay with the extra cataclysms under the condition that the ability to pick up drops while in a cataclysm like we saw in the dev build actually makes it to the final build. 

I think the other thing most people seem to agree on is that the whole "rift cooldown thing" for stasis that punishes you for going past a cap you can't really control needs to be removed. 

[Shiro_Kisaragi]

I have an idea to add to the discussion: How about making Banish a tap to aoe and hold for single target ability? It would prove useful for reviving allies without bringing enemies to the rift. How do yo feel about it?

[BalaDeSilver]

1 minute ago, Shiro_Kisaragi said:

I have an idea to add to the discussion: How about making Banish a tap to aoe and hold for single target ability? It would prove useful for reviving allies without bringing enemies to the rift. How do yo feel about it?

seems like someone didn't read the 5 last replies...

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, BalaDeSilver said:

seems like someone didn't read the 5 last replies...

I have considered the possibility they are making a sly joke about the fact that everyone is suggesting it already. 

[(XBOX)ZenithLord 42]

Spelling Nazi attack! "Concerning," not, "Conserning"! 

Please disregard above comment... 

Yes, op I agree that it is a little troubling, but I believe that D.E. will do their best trying to make Limbo both useful and not rediculously, powerful. He seems much more useful with this rework than he is now! 

As he is currently, he has fantastic survivability and the ability to simply remove enemies is great! He really is lacking in damage potential. 

We'll see how well he does when his rework is released! Good concerns and questions raised, Tenno! 

[BalaDeSilver]

8 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I have considered the possibility they are making a sly joke about the fact that everyone is suggesting it already. 

it is a possibility

[brainjelly2g0]

Stasis is such a cool ability that it could ruin Limbo. Hear me out.

It fits perfectly with his kit in concept, but then comes the trouble of balancing it. Imagine on say, Akkad, if a Limbo showed up, cast his four over the pod, then hit 2. The infested would literally be helpless to damage it, as they're frozen completely. So, DE has to make it have a downside, cool. But, then comes the problem of how do you find the sweet spot?

DE can't make it limitless, just because it would be more broken then an 8 Mirage raid using only Broken War and Broken Scepter.

So, they need a limit in some way. Personally, I think an energy drain, with each additional enemy above X enemies(modified by Strength) adding X energy(Duration and Efficiency) to the drain. But, the problem then becomes that Limbo is based around having huge amounts of energy at his disposal, just by being where he's going to be already. This would have to negate the Rift's regen, and kinda sucks some of Limbo's identity down.

So, instead, they're moving towards a hard cap, rather than a soft one. However, if they make it modified by Strength, then we're seeing something Limbo can play with a bit more. Many already build for high duration, high strength already, and it would fit better into his playstyle. 

Then there's the overcharge punishment. At first, I thought it was as dumb as Sortie 3 Assassination, against Vay Hek, Melee only(or bullS#&$ in layman's terms). But then I started thinking through it a bit more, and I see where they're coming from. Limbo is arguably the most complex frame in the game, and he requires quite a bit more thinking then all the others. "Should I take these guys out 1 by 1, exit the Rift and Spray them down, or pop a Cataclysm over them?" But, having an ability that possesses what will no doubt be some of the best CC in-game, free of downsides is ridiculous. That would turn the above scenario into "Pop Cataclysm, hit 2, shoot, roll, hit 2." But, with a cap that punishes you for going over, it becomes more intellectual. "Should I take these guys out 1 by 1, or risk a Cataclysm? I can't tell how many guys are here, but I might go over my limit if I pop a bubble here." 

Suddenly, Limbo modding remains as weird as it does today. High range means low strength, so putting your ridiculously large bubble over a group of enemies could send you out into the regular plane. Low range but high strength means you can comfortably use your 4, but it would need to be re-positioned often. So, the skilled Limbo would need to find a balance between Range and Strength, so one doesn't invalidate the other. 

If DE just makes the cap modified by power strength(and doesn't bother with a stupid limit on projectiles), then Limbo would remain complex, but have a boost to power level in the hands of a skilled player(Miramulors will sadly, not enjoy the rework, regardless of what DE does).

[Delamir]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I gotta say most of the changes I could at least live with, but I am actually increasingly bothered by the whole "get kicked out of the rift thing" when using stasis, the more I think about it. I just really don't like it. Vauban has an upper limit on his Bastille, lots of abilities have enemy caps, and can only get so high even with duration/strength mods for reasons of balance (not of gameplay balance, but balancing out people who run toasters). I've never had an issue with that, but those abilities don't punish you if you accidentally go past your duration.

I feel like this is the one sticking point that could make or break this rework. I think having a penalty makes no sense at all. Just stop having stasis affect enemies + projectiles once it reaches the cap, just like Vauban's Bastille doesn't end its duration and take Vauban's shields away if more than the cap enters bastille, it just stops affecting enemies beyond the cap. Why would Limbo be any different than most abilities that have a cap? Why should be be punished by not being able to use his signature thing (the rift)? 

Even if we were to have some penalty, it needs to not be being forced out of our own rift system, that our frame uniquely uses. And honestly, again I don't see how a penalty even makes sense here, because it is not something we can really control. That's the big issue here. It is supposed to include both ally and enemy projectiles and amount of enemies, how in a fast paced game like Warframe am I supposed to somehow keep track of that and avoid it going past the limit? It seems like there are so many factors totally beyond my control here, and I am being punished for something I can't really do anything about. And worse yet, punished by taking the rift away from me, my own unique mechanic. 

The more I think about it the more I think that particular mechanic of Stasis is a terrible, terrible idea. 

Here are a short list of notes on what I think needs to be done here: 

Passive: Allow us some sort of option to enter/exit the rift with our new "roll" thing without moving if we don't want jump forward every time we exit the rift -- some kind of momentum killer so we just sort of dash in place. 

Current Passive: We do get to keep his current passive as well, which gives him increased holster, reload and movement speed in the rift right? Please say yes. Plenty of other frames have multiple passives for very reasons, it would be sad to lose this functionality, when the rift roll is more a part of who he is, than a passive. 

Banish: Allow players to tap/hold for aoe or single target, this has been suggested by so many people, and it only adds options and gives players more control. 

Stasis: Take away the rift cooldown penalty if we go past the cap, and simply make it stop working past the cap or something. This adds an extremely punishing possibility for something we really don't have proper control over as players. Even if having a penalty made sense (it didn't, no other frame goes through this), taking us out of the rift is the worst way to punish a Limbo, and is going to be fatal way too often. 

Replacement for Rift Surge: This ability actually looks really cool, but I am not sure how helpful the extra cataclysms are going to be. I guess time will tell. My other concern here is trolling potential. Cataclysm already has the potential to be extremely trolly due to people's inability to pick up drops. In the dev build we watched Limbo could pick up drops in Cataclysm but not in regular rift. This makes sense and would be a good change, please do not reverse this. Cataclysm needs a reason to be up, and if we have extra mini cataclysm up too, some of which are basically popping up when we didn't plan, it will be harder for us as Limbo's to control how long those mini ones last -- they are sort of outside our control to turn off at will for drops like our big one. So either allow picking up of drops in Cataclysm in final build, or consider dropping the mini cataclysm idea and replacing it with something else entirely. 

Also, Rift Torrent augment: From my understanding the Rift Surge damage bonus is just... gone. Could we perhaps retool the old Rift Surge augment to fit his new three, and have it provide some kind of damage amplification based on enemies in the rift that is similar to the old Rift Surge numbers? It would be sad to see that ability to amplify damage permanently taken away. 

Cataclysm: Please, make the whole "pick up drops in Cataclysm" like we saw in the dev build, an actual reality. If not, the mini-cataclysm are going to be an issue, like I said earlier. And too many people will still hate him because they can't get drops in his bubble, and Frost will still be the 90% of the time option for Defense. 

Again, I am not suggesting we should be able to hack while normally in the rift, or pick up datamasses, etc. However, if we are in Cataclysm, we have basically made a rift pocket and dragged the entire area into the rift (logically this makes sense because we can use it to protect defense objectives), so we should be able to pick up drops that fall inside it while fighting inside it. 

Other thoughts: Please consider doing an audit on Cataclysmic Continuum it is a thoroughly useless augment in its current form. 

This. DE This is the Limbo we all want.

The only suggestion i have, is that when we reach the cap of our stasis, intead of punishing us, which would pretty much break the frame, make it like Equinox 4. You run out of energy it proc. Do the same with Limbo's 2. We reach cap and it procs.

Now making everything less trolly, i dont agree. Limbo is such an awesome concept and just because a few people troll with him, shouldnt have any impact on the frame imo.

Instead DE should hit them with the ban hammer, but i guess that would be a new system to imply, so im not sure it would be realistic, but i think you catch my drift.

With the rift torrent augment, and i cant say this loud enough, PLEASE don't take away the damage multiplier on it.

[DageWasTaken]

Omg. Limbo is actually a Stand!

Za Warudo!!

 

New favorite Frame.

[Tesseract7777]

7 minutes ago, Delamir said:

The only suggestion i have, is that when we reach the cap of our stasis, intead of punishing us, which would pretty much break the frame, make it like Equinox 4. You run out of energy it proc. Do the same with Limbo's 2. We reach cap and it procs.

I actually really like this idea. Instead of being put on a rift cooldown, the ability just ends its duration early or something and the projectiles all go off and do their damage early. The penalty for going past the cap is that the duration of Stasis simply ends early. I would find that to be a perfectly acceptable solution as well. Just, no cooldowns on going into the rift/making rift pockets please. 

Equinox is a good example of how this works well on another frame too. 

[main_antagonist]

Za Warudo!! 

But to get to the point, a few people have said it already but I'm repeating it in case others haven't spotted those comments in this topic.

Some are worried about the AOE Banish because they prefer to single out enemies and isolate them with banish. Given the fact that you can freeze time it really doesn't matter that much if you've Banished a few at a time since you can STOP TIME. Stopping time is way stronger than isolating a single enemy. 

However I do play Limbo myself and I can see the appeal of a single target Banish so perhaps DE will implement a quick button press for single target banish and a hold press to cast it as an AOE, either way I'm not concerned about no longer being able to Banish one target because the time stopping ability fixes that problem and it much better in my opinion.

[Synpai]

I agree that Limbo should be able to consume all the rift charges with one of his powers (Can't remember who suggested this and I havent re-found it yet)

 

3 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Banish: Allow players to tap/hold for aoe or single target, this has been suggested by so many people, and it only adds options and gives players more control. 

Yessssssssssssssss.

 

I wish his rift stayed on allies for the whole duration, and only got toggled off /on when rolling. In its current state I have no choice; it's all or nothing so I tend to just immediately get rid of it for pick ups, but it's near impossible to get again when you need it.

This whole "Capacity" idea is interesting, but from what I heard both his ult and allies are counter productive. I.e: He's gonna be punished for things out of his control. Perhaps slowing enemies and projectiles is better than full on stopping them. Regardless, there are a lot of projectile heavy weapons in this game (Even moreso with multishot rivens), not to mention mirage on top of that. Is this a coop game or solo? I really start to wonder with some of these changes.

1. This capacity is gonna need UI. For the love of all things holy if this idea goes through with no way of visibly knowing when you're reaching the cap I'm gonna self destruct.

2. Give incentives for risk/reward gameplay. I.e: Give a regen + damage/armor/something buff to Limbo and allies the more enemies he has in the rift. But say, he topples over the edge: Either: have the ability start moderately draining energy from Limbo (can't go back up until capacity falls under overflow) or maybe give the enemies a buff. In no way should there just be instant punishment (I.e: what people hate about nullifiers and combras). There's no counterplay: Your ability gets trashed, you kill the thing that did it and reactivate it/ oops my pinky toe touched one of the fifteen nullifier bubbles gg. Where it should be more like: Ah this combra's about to trash my ability, FIND IT. 

 

As for his ult, I can't see any use for it. I don't like it at all. It is the antithesis of control. Too many enemies for a bubble to be of use.

I would actually prefer a gate, similar to volt's shield, that toggles rift (on players and projectiles). Would allow for much better control and  micromanagement. 

 

[TwevOWNED]

5 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

The limit exists because Limbo is the only frame that can become completely invulnerable to outside effects, including Eximi auras.

If he were to be able to do unlimited hard CC on enemies that actually have an effect on him it would become a huge balance problem.

Vauban, Loki, Nyx, Ivara, Rhino, Wukong, Inaros, and Nydus all have what equates to invulnerability or unlimited cc. There is no reason for Limbo to be handicapped from the start when there would still be other frames that would do what he does better.

 

I get not having infinite projectiles in there and evetually not letting any more in, but freezing Limbo's abilities for using them too well, meaning he won't ever press 3 in fear of making too many rift areas, is absurd. If there is an enemy cap and when you hit it other enemies get slowed or even just move at normal speed it would be fine, but making him weak when he already won't be anywhere near the strongest warframe is absurd.

[Chipputer]

11 minutes ago, TwevOWNED said:

freezing Limbo's abilities for using them too well,

Except they're not freezing you for using them well. They're halting your power(s) for overextending your abilities.

It thematically makes sense. Limbo tore himself into pieces because he overextended himself.

[main_antagonist]

Here's a workaround idea ...For bad PC's and The cap on Limbo's stasis.

(The goal behind this idea is to remove the cap on Limbo and benefit players who haven't got the best gaming rigs that would suffer massive fps drops)

Excessive projectiles making you hit a cap should be scrapped because being reprimanded for that isn't fun, to stop computers using up too much of their resources the best way to go about this would be to only allow you to freeze your own projectiles and those of your enemies!. Allies within your rift can shoot as normal. You aren't controlling their shots just you and the enemies within the rift.

 

Early game low level enemies die in the rift because your allies can run in and snake free kills from you if they wanted ... Later when the enemies have scaled up that won't be the case at all, it'll be great crowd control and you'll be able to set up consecutive headshots for bonus damage and make every shot count since the enemies will have such large health pools at this point.

TL;DR

Bad pc's don't have to worry only limbo and enemies projectiles get frozen,

You can shoot freely within the rift if you are playing with a limbo on your squad and the shots will connect with your target normally,

Limbo has his stasis cap removed and can have more fun setting up bullet, knife, explosive traps etc for when time speeds up again.

Everyone is happy the end.

[General_Durandal]

Dodge  into/out of the rift is bad because some players actually use the dodge function.

If you can make it so you have to hold the dodge button to rift shift that would be great.

 

AoE banish is bad because you don't want to banish level 100 enemies along with your hostage.

If you made it so taping the powering is a single target cast, while holding the power did the AoE cast, that would be great.

 

Time stop is bad because getting locked out of your powers just because there was too much going on is to big of a penalty.

One mirage comes along and you'll never be able to use your powers.

If it worked like Bastille, where when it gets to it's max, any excess enemies and projectiles are unaffected, that would be great.

 

rift surge making smaller rift pockets everywhere is bad because,

what if one opens up on a bombard behind you? you dead.

what if one opens up and a crowd of enemies shooting at something? you can't use powers anymore if stasis was on.

the last thing limbo needs is uncontrollable pockets of the rift opening up everywhere.

if the surge made rift tears instead of bubbles, that can be hit with banish to open, that would be great.

 

cataclysm is okay, but it is his ultimate power and should do something more than just damage, knockdown, damage.

if it also made enemies inside it deal less damage it would be great.

[Echorion]

It looks like a lot of fun but I don't see how a complicated set of abilities that let you freeze and kill some enemies is any better than a character that can do that in a more simple and effective way.

[Liminal]

Yeah I agree, a limit as simple as Vauban's with Bastille would be better.

[kgptzac]

The new Limbo looks even more fantastic to play as a solo frame, but I don't think the potential misuse and abuse in coop environment is properly addressed in this rework.  It can always be problematic when enemies are in rift, and players other than limbo himself can't enter the rift.  There should be a mechanism to safeguard the scenario where a Limbo sends some enemies to the rift to cause other squad mates can't kill them.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

Well for example, max range rhino stomp or frost avalanche can hit an unlimited amount of enemies. The problem the devs were discussing were for weapon projectiles. (Which is a reason why mirage 1 was changed from 4 to 2 clones, to prevent toasters crashing.)

 

The ability is more of a projectile amount limit than anything. (And the time stop power would be even worse than the mirage problem that happened years ago.)

 

Also, I foresee Cataclysm time stop combo to rival globe.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Viedra_Lavinova

[MokutoBunshi]

14 hours ago, Azamagon said:

To clarify with Banish:
 

Tap 1 for individual banish, and ability to reverse their state, regardless of what state Limbo is in.

Hold 1 for group banish, always putting the group in the same state Limbo is in.

That addon to the individual banish is very important.

Also, I think everyone who is ok with the rift dash also agrees with stationary dash = stationary rift toggle (i.e., Rift state toggle without movement. To dash, you need to also move during the "roll").

Now hopefully the devs SEE this and don't get cold feet on implementing the changes :P

 

]\'[