Harrow feedback and discussion

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

He looks awesome and I love him already, just a tad worried about thurible range but thats it.

He looks awesome but I'm not impressed by his abilities considering he is a support character. Also it makes DE earlier description of him not make sense. Devstream ago DE gave a description saying Harrow would sacrifice himself to save others. Or something on the lines of that and it made me excited for him. Sadly. His skills tell a different description. 

[Tesseract7777]

17 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

He looks awesome but I'm not impressed by his abilities considering he is a support character. Also it makes DE earlier description of him not make sense. Devstream ago DE gave a description saying Harrow would sacrifice himself to save others. Or something on the lines of that and it made me excited for him. Sadly. His skills tell a different description. 

Meh it's a matter of taste. Personally I really find his skills to be to my liking -- this may be my favorite yet. And yet, some will absolutely despise him. 

As for their description, I always try to take that stuff with a grain of salt. They just said "precision shooting" not headshots at first, and they did say "sacrifice himself to save allies", but I mean, yeah, I can see how people could take that to mean he could somehow bring them back Wukong Defy style and go down himself as sacrifice, and I sympathize with that viewpoint, but personally, I never thought that was going to happen, because I didn't think it was realistic. Even for DE, I felt the idea of a frame that actually goes down to save his allies from dying was too gimmicky/too far, and that sacrificing himself to save allies could mean all kinds of things. It could mean he gives up health/shields/armor/gives himself any proc or debuff really, in order to give allies back health/shields/armor/what have you when they need it/when they are low/in danger, etc. 

I don't expect them to hold too strongly too specifics when they are talking early on and take everything with a grain of salt, because oftentimes at that point they just have a general idea, and haven't defined everything yet. Getting too caught up on what we think their words mean is probably going to lead to disappointment, because they are usually speaking in these cases in very general terms about abilities they haven't finalized or sometimes gotten close to finalizing, and only have a vague idea of where they want to go. This seems like a case of people really getting attached to certain aspects they expected, when those things were never actually promised, and then feeling let down. 

 

[(XBOX)Babadookcf]

The word sacrifice holds a heavy connotation. It's not surprising that many players have expected more of it. The result is disappointing. Shields in the game has little to no importance as enemies drain them down before you even realize they're gone. So the idea of "sacrificing" shields is a letdown simply because you are sacrificing a trivial thing. 

Sacrifice should meet the criteria of the implications, especially being that the warframe is connected to red veil. I can see Harrow sacrificing his body, his physical manifestation to grant allies unlimited ammo and constant health and energy regen. He could take on a ghostly form wrecking havok with the incense thing he wields around, rather than having it be something stationary. Sort of like exalted blade but harrow needs to meet a certain kill count to return to his body, like an offering to regain his body. The setback? once he reaches a threshold (time), unable to meet the kill count, the screen starts to become distorted until the frame dies and can't be revived. 

I love the chains, it's decent cc, although it would be nice to have it cover in a 360 based on your range with no limit to how many enemies you can stop, as long as they are within range.  

Invulnerability is usually not engaging. We already have a valkyr for that. Maybe Harrow could summon an altar or something (much like octavias rollerball) that attract enemies attention and deals constant damage to the area. Combine this with chains and you have a really useful cc. 

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by (XB1)Babadookcf

[PookieNumnums]

Hi.

 

So, according to the devstream from today with our glorious benefactors and the wonderful information they bestowed upon us:

 

Harrows passive will be double overshield. This sounds cool but after seeing all he can do and then getting some feedback from both council members and general players from here and there, I had an idea that would make him a little more appealing.

 

Feedback: Harrow is a little underwhelming (imo, kitwise) and here is something that I think would spice up his existence, give him more reason to be used / in your squad, and actually help to give Trinibae a little competition for player affection.

When casting his ability that removes his shields, the amount of shield removed should be divided up among the squad members within tenno affinity range as health, when health is filled shield, when both are filled: overshield.

 

Simple maths (assume his max shield is 600 for this example and that he has full overshields, and that there are a total of four players in the squad and all within range of tenno affinity meter)

(2400 + 600) / 4 = amount restored to health first, then shield, then overshield if applicable. that would mean 750 pts would be applied to health, if it fills health leftover would go to shield, if shield is filled leftover would go to overshield. that would be 750 overshield for a completely undamaged team member. 

In a squad with 2 players (harrow and one other person) 1500 points would be used to regen  harrows team mates health/shield/overshield. 

 

 

[Evanescent]

I agree, but did they not say that it also has a healing effect?

[LuckyCharm]

Hey everyone, just wanted to throw my feedback out there on harrow and the huge focus being tunnel visioned into headshots. 

I have a rather major problem with this personally. (I know some of you are super excited for harrow and are looking forward to trying him out and my problem isn't really harrow in general), The problem that I have is that warframe as a whole has many many non-humanoid enemies where it's not really made readily apparent where their heads are. I know it's possible to learn through wiki or the forums but i'm not even sure some points are even "heads" but merely weak points.

Take moas for example. The butt-box they have is supposed to have a 3x multiplier. On their butt. This doesn't even remotely seem like the place a headshot should occur when aiming for them. Rebecca was scoring headshots today on the little front part of the moas which seemed more likely but why is the head not the major weak point the butt-box is?

Perhaps when enemies are fully scanned in the codex, have the option to show weak points and "head" locations on the codex screen lit up so people know where to aim? Or better yet, light up head locations with sniper scopes/the new pistol scope... to show where to aim for headshots. It wouldn't change too much given that only scoped weapons then would be able to do that but it'd at least give visual clues for those particular one shot-one kill guns. 

 

Harrow wise I'm not really looking forward to him. Trying to get a team of aoe nukers or nidus players or whatever other frames to play around your headshot mechanics sounds nightmarish especially if the headshots remain as hard to obtain correct info on as they currently are. 

DE please take a look at the headshot mechanic and actually playtest it in a team of players not quite working around your individual skills

[(PSN)Zelisius]

Thinking either ignis wraith or maybe even the convectrix might be pretty cool with this guy.

Convectrix, with its scissor attack and ability to fan it may be quite nice with him

[PsiWarp]

Would be nice if enemies affected by 1 and in range of 3 had their heads highlighted or stand out in some way. A bit more work for DE but for the long term will make playing Harrow a lot less guesswork.

[LuckyCharm]

1 minute ago, PsiWarp said:

Would be nice if enemies affected by 1 and in range of 3 had their heads highlighted or stand out in some way. A bit more work for DE but for the long term will make playing Harrow a lot less guesswork.

Would make it easier for team mates to pick off heads too since that's the whole support side of his mechanics else you may as well just be playing trinity

[KX297]

I think he is awesome! 

So unorthodox!

I think people need to place less emphasis on what DE says a frame is based around. They said he would be a Priest frame, sure, but why do they have to stop there? He can heal allies and restore energy, which is some great support. Though, I wish we knew more details.

I think this is similar to Oberon's case of Paladin versus Druid. If we put no emphasis on his classification, and simply ignore what DE has said, he seems much better. Self sustain, CC, team sustain, and alright buffs. Great frame overall. Just don't think too deeply into his 'role' as defined by DE's standards, otherwise things kinda go south.

I also believe this trouble comes from the community too. DE seems to use terms like Paladin and Priest loosly, while many of our more RPG experienced players in the community have more rigid and set definitions.

And do his powers seem more fitting of Mesa? I guess I would yeild to that. They do seem more Mesa-ish, but I'm not upset about it. I love Mesa's abilites! Except her one, fudge that thing, it sucks. I think Mesa with her ultimate and 'character' still fit the sharpshooter theme alright. Maybe they'll make some alterations in the future.

I guess what I'm saying is this;

Harrow looks amazing. Abilities seem very unusual and will require some obvious playstyle adjustments along with practice, but seem very good. 

Ignore what DE says he's based on/classified as and everything seems okay. Think about it too much, and things get weird.

--------------------

As a side note, DE did say he would be a Priest like frame who would require 'skill shots' and precision, so I'm not really sure why so many people seemed offset by what we saw. It's not like its really suprising. Hmmm, I'm just glad I made preperation. Got my forma and Arcane Aegis set. Gonna go for a wonky sheild build and see what fun I can have ( :

Edited May 13, 2017 by KX297

[KX297]

2 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

He's based on precision because Red Veil loves assassinations, with the Rakta Cernos and Rakta Ballistica showing they prefer setting sights on their enemies' heads, and they are fanatical (not necessarily religious, but we'll have to see).

Harrow's a priest-based frame, and we're gonna meet the Veil's Deacons. He is tailor-made for this Syndicate right down to his powers.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was the reason the Red Veil exists today.

These are great points!

+1

He does fit Red Veil well, and I'm looking foward to his quest!

[KX297]

16 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Would be nice if enemies affected by 1 and in range of 3 had their heads highlighted or stand out in some way. A bit more work for DE but for the long term will make playing Harrow a lot less guesswork.

This!

 

When I first saw Harrow, I began to think of all of the enemies in the game who have clunky bodies where their 'heads' aren't readily identifiable. Harrow should have some way to illuminate their heads!

Edited May 13, 2017 by KX297

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

It's about to be released, even if they wanted to totally redo his skills (hint: they don't) it would send him months away in the pipeline.

You say that like it's a bad thing. 

[Erl-King]

Really disappointed in Harrow abilities. His whole kit feels backwards and not fitting gameplay at all. His gimmicky energy restore ability fits only defense mission type and even then Trinity would do this job better.
 

[Xekrin]

39 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Rebecca was scoring headshots today on the little front part of the moas which seemed more likely but why is the head not the major weak point the butt-box is?

Just to be clear, the head really is on the chest.  Or rather, there is a cannon like thing above the head, which resembles a head but isn't.

 

41 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Perhaps when enemies are fully scanned in the codex, have the option to show weak points and "head" locations on the codex screen lit up so people know where to aim?

I agree though, that this would be an amazing addition.  There are a lot of enemies that simply have no properly defined head regions or what appears to be the head actually isn't.  Especially on infested.

[Xekrin]

55 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

Harrow is a little underwhelming (imo, kitwise)

Based only one what we saw, I agree.  Except not in regards to the passive, which will have its uses I'm sure.  My disappointment lies in the necessity for headshots to boost his abilities.  It will be a hardpressed situation finding a squad that actually goes along with this killing enemies one by one concept.

Though they did mention there were squad buffs that could not be displayed properly due to no squad being present.  So you will likely get your wish in one form or another.  Don't be surprised if it requires headshots though.

A warframe (priest-type) that has a strange obsession with heads.  Its just ... odd.

[Iccotak]

I just don't see headshots being made if your party kills the enemies before you can freeze them. That is if your freeze prevents your party from killing your targets

[Erl-King]

49 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

A warframe (priest-type) that has a strange obsession with heads.  Its just ... odd.

Skulls for the skull-throne.
 

[PsiWarp]

Nice idea. He's got Health and Energy down, even Invulnerability. Might as well throw in Shields and Overshields to seal the deal (great for Shield-Gating hopefully).

[hukurokuju5]

looks like hes going to be super fragile, as he has no preemptive durability other than 4 on a cooldown

Edited May 13, 2017 by hukurokuju5

[hukurokuju5]

this guy has CC, but trinity beats him in almost every other aspect.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

3 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

this guy has CC, but trinity beats him in almost every other aspect.

Trinity will always beat all supportive frames. No one will knock her off her supportive throne. 

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

thoughts on 1st:

good i dont mind it not doing finishers but i hope they add an augment that allows you to do them and activate the shield ability of it

i hope allies can interact with those bound and ber shields like harrow

thoughts on 2nd:

i like it, its a good support ability and has potentially very strong healing capabilities

thoughts on 3rd ability:

i would hope that positive duration makes the charge time drop and the ability active time go up or that casting speed mods would effect the charge rate. i would also hope that while you are charging the ability the aoe would already be taking place or could flow out like nova's prime.

hopefully they make it follow you or they add an augment that allows it too

as well as move around while charging it

i also wish that other teammates can activate the energy regen 

thoughts on 4th:

i hope that the invulnerability will be based on duration mods

i would like to know what exact buffs he gets after the phase 1 is over

 

over all: i can see a general culmination of what DE ha learned thus far from the last few frames and reworks; a want to create synergies between abilities, make powers look cool and interesting, all though they still haven't found an amazing balance with power scale and some of the abilities they have released don't give off an essence of holding true power, they still manage to give harrow a very individualized design aesthetic and heavily place the feeling of his powers of where he stands on team setup. 

    in a few words: a "flat line trinity"

whereas trinity gives large bursts of energy and health, Harrow can give it out steadily and in some cases i could see harrow being a stronger team player if DE plays out the powers just right

Edited May 13, 2017 by (PS4)TwilightGrim

[Thexceedel]

Um so i was wondering wasnt this suppose to be the support/longrange  frame that will sacrifice itself for teammates but from what i saw its not that supportive. I mean many frames have cc/buffs and the ability thats called sacrifice is so lame tbh. I was kinda expecting something like a taunt or something like lokis decoy augment. 

[Mousarchy]

6 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

See this is the thing here. I don't expect everyone to like the frame, I totally understand we all have different tastes, but I don't get the people who are acting like we had no idea what he was going to be. 

People who expected a classic archetypal priest ability set like you would see in typical rpgs were creating their own impossible expectations, because DE said from the beginning that he wasn't a full on priest, that he had some priest themed stuff, but they also talked about precision shooting and such, and made clear that like many frames in this game, he is a hybrid of multiple class archetypes.

It seems most of the people complaining are actually surprised that he relies on getting headshots when they said when they leaked him that he relied on getting precision shots. They created their own impossible to fulfill expectations in this case. 

I think his skills themselves are pretty fitting for a shadow-priest sorta deal. Im just a lil confused on why hes so reliant on headshots is all.
his 1 seems a bit too strong and his 3 seems dangerous to use (considering its stand still and headshot kills for energy). while his 3/4 combo can be great ,would at least like a slow walk with his 3 charging.