Harrow feedback and discussion

[TARINunit9]

I admit I'm not much impressed either. I fear he'll wind up like Oberon, or any Equinox build other than Max Maim

[AdunSaveMe]

How about you wait until he's out? From what we've seen, he looks plenty supportive.

Why does he need a taunt to help teammates?

[PsiWarp]

Sacrifice doesn't mean the frame dies or something drastic like that. Harrow drains his shields to provide weapon buffs + health (50 meters radius) and energy to provide more energy, occasionally pseudo-tanking a bit to get/give a headshot crit chance bonus, while locking down corridors for easy target practice.

He is more comfortable perched somewhere sniping heads but can take on a close combat approach when needed.

[Thexceedel]

34 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

How about you wait until he's out? From what we've seen, he looks plenty supportive.

Why does he need a taunt to help teammates?

to move away the enemy attention toward him. 

[Wolfdoggie]

He looks like a useful alternative to a sleeping pill if you've got insomnia.

[NecromancerX69]

37 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

From what we've seen, he looks plenty supportive.

The only support use I see for harrow it's for defense / mobile defense & he is also mostly a solo play only warframe.

Unless you have the skills of a CoD 360 no scope player, landing headshots quick will not work on warframe, specially if your teammates will kill the enemy before you even have the time to land any headshots after you chain them (Don't forget the broken hitboxes sometimes not working). I am also sure the team wont wait for you to cast your 3rd just to get back some energy (cough, is not like we have zenurik, cough). His second skill is kind of pointless for a support since his heal will last longer the more shields he has (again, to get extra shields you need headshots, also if you DO want a healer warframe we have Trinity and the reworked Oberon). Also last but not least... his ultimate also requires headshots to make use of the buff you get from absorbing damage....

Did I mention this will make missions rather long and boring since you need headshots to keep your self buffed?

Also it's a warframe that it's meant to land headshots... Snipers / bows / rifles doesn't work on him or his buffs (unless DE changes this).

 

Now that I think of it, why not make a warframe that looks more of a sniper for this set of moves... To me these skills don't look like something a priest would use (Unless some one at DE likes Hellsing a little 2 much they wanted a gunslinger priest... at least Alexander Anderson has more uses than this new warframe. Drops Mic).

[SolarDwagon]

8 minutes ago, NecromancerX69 said:

The only support use I see for harrow it's for defense / mobile defense & he is also mostly a solo play only warframe.

Unless you have the skills of a CoD 360 no scope player, landing headshots quick will not work on warframe, specially if your teammates will kill the enemy before you even have the time to land any headshots after you chain them (Don't forget the broken hitboxes sometimes not working). I am also sure the team wont wait for you to cast your 3rd just to get back some energy (cough, is not like we have zenurik, cough). His second skill is kind of pointless for a support since his heal will last longer the more shields he has (again, to get extra shields you need headshots, also if you DO want a healer warframe we have Trinity and the reworked Oberon). Also last but not least... his ultimate also requires headshots to make use of the buff you get from absorbing damage....

Did I mention this will make missions rather long and boring since you need headshots to keep your self buffed?

Also it's a warframe that it's meant to land headshots... Snipers / bows / rifles doesn't work on him or his buffs (unless DE changes this).

 

Now that I think of it, why not make a warframe that looks more of a sniper for this set of moves... To me these skills don't look like something a priest would use (Unless some one at DE likes Hellsing a little 2 much they wanted a gunslinger priest... at least Alexander Anderson has more uses than this new warframe. Drops Mic).

Dude, warframe has the easiest headshots of any game. I'm a silver CS player and I can hit headshots in warframe when I bother-and I use Argon Scope because of it.
More energy supports is nice because maybe then we can finally nerf EV and end the infinite instant energy meta and get abilities balanced better.

[ashrah]

its really fun concept...

[3allvalve]

8 hours ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

Either way, perhaps we should take a chance to actually USE the frame before we start throwing criticism at DE...

I agree with this. I don't want to make the developers out to be incompetent; that's not what I think and it's really not what I want to convey. I know I love the game and so do others. Based on what little we know, Warframers can get a little exited about the direction their game is going. And a frame in the direction of a priest...oh my!

I just think our holy-man  ;)  has to be clan support.

Edit: link added

 

Edited May 13, 2017 by 3allvalve
Link added

[Evanescent]

Well he can tie enemies down for you, heal you, give you shields, give you energy, and give you buffs (possibly)....

What more do you want?

[NecromancerX69]

Just now, SolarDwagon said:

Dude, warframe has the easiest headshots of any game. I'm a silver CS player and I can hit headshots in warframe when I bother-and I use Argon Scope because of it.
More energy supports is nice because maybe then we can finally nerf EV and end the infinite instant energy meta and get abilities balanced better.

Oh geee.... it's not like we still have overpowered weapons, bad internet hosts, hitboxes not working and other warframes that can clean rooms (cough, equinox, cough) faster than any pistol you can bring to land your headshots...

 

" maybe then we can finally nerf EV and end the infinite instant energy met "

Better end this conversation in a healthy manner, we all have opinions, the end.

[ShikiRen]

2 hours ago, Thexceedel said:

Um so i was wondering wasnt this suppose to be the support/longrange  frame that will sacrifice itself for teammates but from what i saw its not that supportive. I mean many frames have cc/buffs and the ability thats called sacrifice is so lame tbh. I was kinda expecting something like a taunt or something like lokis decoy augment. 

Just saying, support/healers in MMO's rather seldomly have taunt. You think of Tanks. *drops mic*

 

But seriously, Support in MMO's have : Heals, CC, Buffs and some big cooldowns to wheather those huge hits. Basically, Harrow is the epitome of what a Support looks like.

#1 CC / regains his shields (not sure if allies' aswell)

#2 Buffs + Heal

#3 Buff

#4 Complete partywide invulnerability on a cooldown

 

Yeah well... Perfect support right there.

 

28 minutes ago, NecromancerX69 said:

Oh geee.... it's not like we still have overpowered weapons, bad internet hosts, hitboxes not working and other warframes that can clean rooms (cough, equinox, cough) faster than any pistol you can bring to land your headshots...

 

" maybe then we can finally nerf EV and end the infinite instant energy met "

Better end this conversation in a healthy manner, we all have opinions, the end.

 

My Lex Prime/ Aklex Prime like to have a word with you. I tend do have among the most kills with those, and I'm usually hitting 7-8/10 headshots. Same with Latron Wraith- Headshotting in this game is easy, even for me. 'sides his cc makes Headshots easy AF.

 

Also, when was the last time you actually SAW an Equinox in anything higher than lvl 50? She dies with 3 poison ticks in sorties/kuva flood, and there is absoluetly NOTHING you can do about that except the ress mod, which will drain her energy... yeah, you can see where that one goes. No big room destroying boomstick for her.

Edited May 13, 2017 by ShikiRen

[NecromancerX69]

12 minutes ago, ShikiRen said:

Also, when was the last time you actually SAW an Equinox in anything higher than lvl 50? She dies with 3 poison ticks in sorties/kuva flood, and there is absoluetly NOTHING you can do about that except the ress mod, which will drain her energy... yeah, you can see where that one goes. No big room destroying boomstick for her.

I have seen equinox players sleeping everyone in kuva floods and finish them off with the zarr or other strong weapons... Also Equinox players are a lot more common than you think on sorties, specially maim equinox players. That is all, I am tired, it's 4am here and I need some sleep.

You are beyond hope...

[SolarDwagon]

4 minutes ago, NecromancerX69 said:

I have seen equinox players sleeping everyone in kuva floods and finish them off with the zarr or other strong weapons... Also Equinox players are a lot more common than you think on sorties, specially maim equinox players. That is all, I am tired, it's 4am here and I need some sleep.

You are beyond hope...

As are you if you really quote Equinox as the biggest AoE nuke...

[Erl-King]

8 hours ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

Either way, perhaps we should take a chance to actually USE the frame before we start throwing criticism at DE...

After devstream that showed Equinox most of feedback was - "Lots of cool ideas, but everyone will use day form 4th, like Ember and switching forms power looks clunky and counterintuitive". Maybe some augments would be interesting, but his default kit is very disappointing.

[ShikiRen]

5 minutes ago, NecromancerX69 said:

I have seen equinox players sleeping everyone in kuva floods and finish them off with the zarr or other strong weapons... Also Equinox players are a lot more common than you think on sorties, specially maim equinox players. That is all, I am tired, it's 4am here and I need some sleep.

You are beyond hope...

I have played Sorties almost every day since they came out, aswell as done my 100+ runs of Kuva Flood. I have seen ONE Equinox...and that was me. Also, "sleeping everything in Kuva Floods"... Yeah, that doesn't really help when the entire room is already hidden in gas clouds of infested ospreys. Against the other 2 she can work fine depending on tileset... But, here is the thing : Sleep is a Nightform ability. The room clear which I was mentioning is dayform. And "loading" the dayform ability enough to kill lvl 100 enemies after having put everyone to sleep... well before that happens your teammates propably have decimated the entire room, making it exactly like Harrow, ne?  >:P Harrow can also freeze everything in place like Sleep and it even gives him shields that overflow into overshields, while being able to buff and heal his allies without having to "charge" it up for a few seconds first like Equinox does.

[Zeiss17]

On 11/4/2017 at 8:16 AM, Trickst3rGawd said:

What gender do you think the new warframe will be and what  do you think it will be based on??

Edit: Devstream confirmed it to be a Male Deacon based Warframe.

My Opinion: Sounds cool but I hope he ships with an alternate helm because I`m not digging the pharaoh look. What are your Thoughts?

---

I only think about one thing, op.

[GreyEnneract]

Really don't like the thurible animation. Looks lazy.

[Sar.K.Asmus]

Landing headshots in a horde shooter game where it's significantly more effective to use AOE damage hence why Tonkor, Synoid Simulor, Old Miasma, Old Polarize were so popular (and Atterax, Orthos Prime, Zenistar, Ignis, Zarr, Sonicor, World on Fire, Maim, Sound Quake are still popular).  

INTERESTING.

[ShogunNoir]

The Harrowing Reality of Harrow

 

So, Harrow. When I saw him he was my most anticipated Warframe, he looked amazing and was designed to be a support Warframe centred around headshots. For a support player like myself, this is perfect. So let's have a look at his abilities and other tidbits from the developer stream and see where we stand.

Check the Spoiler for the TL;DR.

Spoiler

TL;DR: Harrow is a Warframe that has a powerful final skill, useful first skill, and nearly useless second and thirds. This will be a prime candidate for reworking, even though he hasn't even been released officially.

 

 

New Secondary Weapon

Obviously not much has been said about the secondary weapon other than it'll have a scope, and give you benefits with the more headshots you land. So we can assume that it will have a fairly decent critical chance and critical damage and the 'benefits' we get will probably similar to the benefits we get from primary Sniper weapons. I like the idea of having a secondary sniper for taking out high-value targets while having an assault rifle or shotgun for general enemy suppression.

 

Passive

'Double Overshield Capacity

Useful for his second skill, although his second skill isn't particularly useful. More on that later. 

Harrow: Skill 1

'Creates a ray that chains enemies, leaving them open for headshots, which synergizes with his kit. You obtain shields for each enemy hit'

Definitely a useful skill for slowing down a group of enemies and taking them down one by one by yourself, or even preparing them for your team to eliminate. It perfectly synergizes with the necessity to score headshots to get the most out of Harrow, although that being said other Warframes in your team will have probably blown the enemies away before you're able to line up your shot, so you've got to be quick to get the kills.

 

Skill 2

'Casting sacrifices your shields, gaining a buff that lasts longer the more shields are sacrificed, in exchange for reload and fire rate buffs. While it’s active, you will also heal allies in affinity range for a percentage of damage dealt'

The wording infers that it's a power similar to Inaros' Scarab Armour, where you hold down your power button to sacrifice as much or as little shields as you like in order to get the reload and fire rate buffs, although quite how substantial a reload or fire rate buff there will be remains to be seen. I like the fact that he will heal allies within affinity range depending on a percentage of damage dealt, however, is this really comparable to the more substantial healing that Oberon can apply, which does not rely on him doing damage to enemies? This also remains to be seen.

 

Skill 3

'Casting spawns a spectral thurible, which grants you energy for every headshot you get within its range. The longer you hold 3 down, the more energy the ability costs but the more energy you’ll make back per headshot kill'

Firstly, I didn't even know what a Thurible was until researching this.

The wording DE use here is confusing, they mention 'grants you energy for every headshot' and 'more energy you'll make back per headshot kill' So does this mean that you only get energy back everytime you kill someone with a headshot? Or does it mean you gain energy for every headshot regardless of whether it's a kill?

Say if you brought Harrow along on an Exterminate of any kind, and attempted to do this, in the time it take you to wind up your energy recovery the rest of your teammates have likely long passed you and massacred every enemy. So you have to ask yourself in this situation, 'do I take the chance and consume some of my energy in order to recover more, or do I simply not use my skill in case my teammates rush in and murder everyone before I get a chance?' This is a skill that works on a solo mission, not in a public mission.

 

Skill 4

'Casting makes you invulnerable for a short duration. Once the invulnerability ends, you will gain additional critical chance on headshots. The more damage prevented in the first phase the larger the damage bonus will be'

Harrow's ultimate skill, his most powerful skill.

So the intention behind this is to cast the power, which makes you invulnerable, and intentionally get damaged as much as you can in order to get the largest amount of bonus. Ok, the wording, again, is pretty strange because it mentions 'damage bonus' and 'critical chance', so assuming this was intentional, there will be a critical chance and critical damage bonus after the Invulnerability phase ends. This is my favourite skill of his as this could be devastatingly powerful on the Dread, Paris, Cernos and Zhuge bows, Soma Prime and Latron Wraith, Vectis Prime and Vulkar Wraith for examples. It could also give a sizeable buff to weapons that don't usually rely on crits. 

Conclusion

When I saw Harrow's concept art, I expected something completely different than what we got. It implied a more mystical healer kind of Warframe, a druid of sorts. What we got was an unholy trinity of a Warframe who's theme doesn't match his skills, extremely situational powers that don't work particularly well as part of a larger team, as your team members will always be treading on your toes and who's absolute obsession with headshots will ultimately be his downfall. I foresee he will be used widely upon release, and then he'll become about as widely used as Wukong or Ash.

Edited May 13, 2017 by ShogunNoir

[GreyEnneract]

17 minutes ago, Sarcasm4Free said:

Landing headshots in a horde shooter game where it's significantly more effective to use AOE damage hence why Tonkor, Synoid Simulor, Old Miasma, Old Polarize were so popular (and Atterax, Orthos Prime, Zenistar, Ignis, Zarr, Sonicor, World on Fire, Maim, Sound Quake are still popular).  

INTERESTING.

It'd be fine if the amount of energy returned was high. But looked like it would cap at around 50 before completely draining his own energy.

Also it's not just landing headshots, they have to be headshot kills. Making it seem even weaker.

[Xzenowulf]

Alright so after watching devstream 92, im a little underwhelmed about harrow's powers (as i've noticed many people are). I want to break down my take on things and how to I believe they can be improved / changed to make his kit move appealing and synergize better (again, imo) 

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First lets look at the powers currently given to him and i'll share my thoughts on them. Keep in mind that Harrow is supposed to be a "head shot focused"  support warframe.

Passive: Double Overshields - this is meh imo. it works well enough with his 2 ability, but is otherwise bland. maybe if it were "double shields" which would regen naturally over time, that would make it better as it would be much easier to utalize especially since his current 2 ability makes his shields a resource.

first power: Condemn - chaining enemies to the ground, immobilizing them. yeah, ok... this is a decent power. visually looks nice and is a good cc ability. not really unique in concept as many frames have immobilizing abilities, but its going to be hard to come up with completely new concepts for frames with, what.. 32 frames currently out there... so i can forgive a non-unique concept if it has a unique enough appearance. however, i can see how this power could be improved upon, but i'll get to that later.

second power: Penance - sacrifices shields to increase fire rate and reload speed, and a % of damage delt is turned into healing for allies. ok... why? why would i want to increase my fire rate if im trying to get headshots? i can understand increasing fire rate and reload speed if im using a auto-fire weapon that i just plan to mow down enemies... but not for precision firing. this power seems pretty much the opposite of what DE said his focus was going to be... so why have it here? further more... when would you actually want/need to use this? with a few mods most any autofire weapon would fire fast enough and have a short enough reload speed that you would not want/need to sacrifice your shields to increase.. things die pretty quickly as it is. except for in sortie type missions with high enemy levels.. but at that point, losing shields would not be a good idea anyway (again, this is all my opinion here) so i fail to see why this tradeoff would be good. as for the healing aspect of it..... its not strong enough of a healing to justify using... either you'd just drop a team health restore, or if you were wanting a healing frame you'd much rather take trinity, (or hell, even oberon or a equinox thats modded correctly would do the trick). 

third power: Thurible - put energy into the thurible over time (channeled) to let you and allies get energy back from headshots, but only on enemies within the range of the thurible. ok again... why..? why would i waste my time and energy to channel this ability to make it actually useful (a decent amount of energy back per headshot) and then hope the enemies are close enough for it to actually work and THEN attempt to get a headshot (yes, his first power would help in headshots, but thats just one more step to make this useful) when i could much easierly drop a team energy restore and go about my business (or have a trinity in the group whos energy vampire would work much better)..? especially since most of this game is played at a fast enough pace that either (A) enemies would die while you're trying to channel it and the group would move on to a new area -mobile missions- or (B) you're on a stationary type mission where most people are killing enemies with powers and as far back as possible, or running up and using melee meaning most enemies would not get into the range unless the range can be huge (like most of the map huge)... visually speaking this power isn't bad... mechanically speaking for a solo mission it wouldn't be bad either... but in a group situation, i highly doubt it'll be used often enough to justify it's existence... but thats just my opinion.

fourth power: War Pact - invulnerability... that pretty much sums it up... invulnerability... i mean, ok.. it "may" be for allies as well.. and yes, it gives crit chance bonus to headshots after it wears off... but really... its going to be used for the invulnerability... and to that.... this is pretty boring, and further supports the non-headshot gameplay imo... i mean, when invulnerable, its much funner to run up and hack at things with melee or just mow targets down from a distance before the ability wears off... i mean, yes they try to give it the headshot support with the follow up crit chance bonus but again, meh...

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now i'd like to go over my ideas on how to improve/change harrow's powers to make the kit synergize better. (imo)

first i'd like to make a note that i believe harrow shouldn't be a support frame but rather more of an assassin type.

Passive: energy per headshot - take the idea of his third ability, but make it a passive for himself, eliminating the limited range and ramp up time to make it useful and giving it a set limit (probably 10 energy). this would allow him to still have that headshot theme going on without making him be a slow/stationary character.

first power: Shackles - this idea would be similar to his current first power in that it would chain enemies. however, this power works slightly different. the main part of this ability would be that harrow would swing his thurible (like he does in his current third power) and it would release smoke in a radius around him. enemies caught in the smoke while harrow is channeling would then be chained for a duration. the smoke would lingers on for a time after channeling stops but no further enemies would be chained at that point. this power would also have a passive where harrow releases a small amount of smoke around himself constantly that has a % chance to chain enemies who strike him in melee range (the reason for this part will be made clear in the upcoming powers)

second power: Judgment - harrow creates several spikes out of smoke and shoots them through an enemy target, dealing puncture and gas damage. the amount of smoke in the area would dictate how many spikes are created (with a min of 2, if only the passive smoke from his first power is present, and a max of.. like, 6? with the active smoke from his first power). this power would also chain it's target if they are not already chained.

third power: Condemn - create a specter horse to drag all chained targets a certain distance in the direction harrow is moving. if they hit a wall, they take impact damage. so standing still or moving forward when the button is pressed would cause the enemies to be dragged away from harrow, moving backwards would cause them to be drawn towards him. moving left or right would cause them to move them left or right, respectively.. being able to direct where they go so you could bring them close if you wanna melee or knock them back if you dont wanna be melee.. or direct them into a wall for that impact damage. maybe you want to move a group of enemies chained over nezha's firewalker path.. or slam them into atlas's wall so he could then roll them over in one group. just ideas on how this would be a good power.

fourth power: Execution - the chains explode, dealing blast damage. also disperses the smoke in the area. not much else to say about this one... pretty much a death sentence. 

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so thats what i think of it all... would like to hear what you think on my ideas.. maybe any suggestions on what could be improved/changed in my own ideas?

Edited May 13, 2017 by Xzenowulf

[Xzenowulf]

yeah i had the same thoughts and posted a bunch of suggestions on changes/improvements that could (should) be made to him before his release... cuz right now hes looking pretty meh.

[SoGlow]

You actually made new abilities, I doubt they will ever put into consideration.

[PrVonTuckIII]

 Yeesh, it had been a total of 18 hours since we were given a glimpse at his abilities, and we've already dived into the deep end of the doom pool. How about we wait, before we we unanimously state that Harrow will suck?