What if damage scaling was capped?

[(PSN)theelix]

How would you feel if damage scaling was capped? 

Imagine damage at maximum sortie level wasn't changed, but instead for people who run endurance things, or even just hours long survival, damage wouldn't exceed your entire health bar in one shot? However, this would mean health and armor scaling stay as they are, but longer runs become more tenable for casual players. Do you think this would change anything in how "end-game" is made/perceived? 

Would it be a good or bad change? 

Edit: I would like to note that this change would be different from shield gating, and it should be assumed that shield gating would be implemented in this hypothetical. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by (PS4)theelix

[WrathAscending]

It doesn't matter if an enemy is doing 1,000,000,000,000,000 damage per hit or 1,000 damage per hit if all you have is 1,000 EHP. Both will kill you stone dead.

Well, unless you have Quick Thinking on, but it's not like QT needs the help to compete for a slot.

[TotallyLagging]

That's what they're trying to do with shield gating

 

And then nothing changes because enemy armor and health scaling is still borked, armor strip is still mandatory, you still have to CC everything to death, yada yada yada

[13QZXXTTX]

3 hours ago, (PS4)theelix said:

How would you feel if damage scaling was capped? 

Imagine damage at maximum sortie level wasn't changed, but instead for people who run endurance things, or even just hours long survival, damage wouldn't exceed your entire health bar in one shot? However, this would mean health and armor scaling stay as they are, but longer runs become more tenable for casual players. Do you think this would change anything in how "end-game" is made/perceived? 

Would it be a good or bad change? 

Edit: I would like to note that this change would be different from shield gating, and it should be assumed that shield gating would be implemented in this hypothetical. 

Damage Scaling Caps is a STEP DOWN, because Scaling for WarFrames and weapons like DE's Damage 3.0 is not even out yet. Yeah most Frames have to spam-over-duration on higher level enemies, also not considering armor. 

Conclusion: This "damage scaling caped"(For WarFrames/Weapons) would ADD the the PROBLEMS.

Most online games last time I checked DO NOT have Player Damage CAP, unless they "HATE" that classes or is BIAS.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 minutes ago, DesFrSpace said:

Damage Scaling Caps is a STEP DOWN, because Scaling for WarFrames and weapons like DE's Damage 3.0 is not even out yet. Yeah most Frames have to spam-over-duration on higher level enemies, also not considering armor. 

Conclusion: This "damage scaling caped"(For WarFrames/Weapons) would ADD the the PROBLEMS.

Most online games last time I checked DO NOT have Player Damage CAP, unless they "HATE" that classes or is BIAS.

He is talking about capping enemy damage scaling, not player damage scaling. Reread the OP.

[peterc3]

So, essentially, you would reach a point in an endless mission and "win" it, everything past that point would no longer scale?

[Hypernaut1]

Scaling is not designed so you can always win. The whole point of scaling is that it forever pushes the limits.

If you can't play past a certain level, then that's your max level. 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

I suppose that begs the question: what would be the point of continuing?

[low1991]

28 minutes ago, DesFrSpace said:

Damage Scaling Caps is a STEP DOWN, because Scaling for WarFrames and weapons like DE's Damage 3.0 is not even out yet. Yeah most Frames have to spam-over-duration on higher level enemies, also not considering armor. 

Conclusion: This "damage scaling caped"(For WarFrames/Weapons) would ADD the the PROBLEMS.

Most online games last time I checked DO NOT have Player Damage CAP, unless they "HATE" that classes or is BIAS.

I think OP talking about damage scalling cap on enemies? and not players?

[NeoSmile]

radiation procs and nyx would be way worse if this would be implemented (just think of all the mind controll/chaos limiters this would give)

[(PSN)Khrysamere]

I think that, even if hypothetically damage scaling was capped to encourage casuals to go into the higher waves in endless missions, the casuals still wouldn't do it. As of now, there isn't really a reason to go to wave 100+, so even if it was easier I don't think the casuals would bother going that high. Honestly I think the only reason that people DO go that high is to push the limits for their frame, and to get accustomed to high leveled enemies so that the lower leveled enemies become easier to them...^{and bragging rights, that's probably a reason as well.} 

 

So in the end, all it would do is hurt the hardcore players, as it would remove a lot of the challenge that they seek.

Edited July 20, 2017 by (PS4)Khrysamere

[DrBorris]

Maybe cap enemy damage scaling, as it is essentially capped as it is. There is no difference between being one shot and being one shot harder. Enemy damage scaling also makes the difference in EHP of most Warframes pretty much irrelevant as the only way to notice yourself being more tanky is with some extreme DR ability. 

[Volinus7]

Scaling is a way to conceal the top of the staircase from players, it generates the feeling of "have not reached the top yet" to make most people throw in more playtime into the game, there're plenty of examples of definite scaling(one time purchase, pvp centric, etc) and indefinite scaling(mmorpg, incremental games, etc) out there.

Warframe is not about balance, it's about business model.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Volinus7

[Hypernaut1]

41 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Scaling is a way to conceal the top of the staircase from players, it generates the feeling of "have not reached the top yet" to make most people throw in more playtime into the game, there're plenty of examples of definite scaling(one time purchase, pvp centric, etc) and indefinite scaling(mmorpg, incremental games, etc) out there.

Warframe is not about balance, it's about business model.

I honestly don't see how scaling ties into a nefarious business model. It's simply a gaming mechanic. It's actually a soft cap to progress if anything. The equivalent of making a never ending dessert be a boundary instead of an invisible wall.

Scaling doesn't make "most" people throw in more playtime. If anything, most people simply accept the fact that they aren't meant to be playing against level 150+ enemies. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)theelix]

2 hours ago, DesFrSpace said:

Damage Scaling Caps is a STEP DOWN, because Scaling for WarFrames and weapons like DE's Damage 3.0 is not even out yet. Yeah most Frames have to spam-over-duration on higher level enemies, also not considering armor. 

Conclusion: This "damage scaling caped"(For WarFrames/Weapons) would ADD the the PROBLEMS.

Most online games last time I checked DO NOT have Player Damage CAP, unless they "HATE" that classes or is BIAS.

I do not mean player damage cap, but enemy damage cap. 

To use an example, zombie games. Games like Killing Floor 2 and CoD Black Ops: Zombies have difficulty made from how enemies move and their numbers. Killing Floor 2 does increase damage, but only so much. It's more that everything starts sprinting towards you in higher levels, though that game doesn't have endless modes. 

Call of Duty Black Ops: Zombies has endless modes in which enemies don't get much faster, but their health scales infinitely to the point where they take extremely long to kill. The difficulty comes from your ability to micromanage and not get trapped, to know spawns well and maintain your train.  

 

In honesty, that's what I would like endless runs in this game to be like. Not becoming a trivial game of spam ability or you die, but rather see how long you can go without making so many mistakes. Even in CoD BO:Z, you can get trapped but you still have just a second to recover. You have that opportunity to have a contingency, to use skill and quick reaction to recover. The ability of multiple zombies to hit you at the same time makes up for the lack of single enemy damage, and that's what I really wanted to strike at. In a game where we face dozens of enemies at the same time, why should any one of them be able to kill you instantaneously on their own? Their power is with their groups already. The challenge of killing enough of them so keep their damage output low means nothing if one of them possesses damage over your health already. 

2 hours ago, NeoSmile said:

radiation procs and nyx would be way worse if this would be implemented (just think of all the mind controll/chaos limiters this would give)

To be honest, this isn't relevant to what I'm questioning. Though this is a problem, but it needs to be addressed with Radiation's status effect itself rather than damage. As it it now, Confused enemies won't kill anyone anyway. Having a level 145 heavy gunner confused vs 20 145 butchers just leaves you watching a hilarious flail match for the next ten minutes with no one dying. Having 20 confused Heavy Gunners confused forever just leaves you sleeping. Radiation's Confusion proc should have a damage modifier in the positive for friendly fire on former allies unless it's affecting Tenno. We already kill our own fast enough without Radiation. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Khrysamere said:

I think that, even if hypothetically damage scaling was capped to encourage casuals to go into the higher waves in endless missions, the casuals still wouldn't do it. As of now, there isn't really a reason to go to wave 100+, so even if it was easier I don't think the casuals would bother going that high. Honestly I think the only reason that people DO go that high is to push the limits for their frame, and to get accustomed to high leveled enemies so that the lower leveled enemies become easier to them...^{and bragging rights, that's probably a reason as well.} 

 

So in the end, all it would do is hurt the hardcore players, as it would remove a lot of the challenge that they seek.

I agree with the main point, I do not agree with the last sentence. Hardcore players aren't pressed by enemy damage more than their health and armor scaling. Why do I think this? Because the large amount of Endurance runners use invisibility and invincibility techniques. The most famous example I can imagine is Rio. His favorite frame is Ash, which removes all challenge of being damaged to death. His main hurdle in survival is enemy armor and health scaling, and that it becomes harder to kill the enemies fast enough to generate life support. 

I believe that it would ultimately be healthier being that damage reduction would still matter even in longer runs, and it would open the option to use more frames, and different playstyles outside of what I know of endurance runners to usually use and focus more on using gunplay and mechanical skill rather than ability spamming. As it is, anyone can do endurance runs by just playing a Seeking Shuriken Ash, or an Exalted Blade shadow step Excalibur. But that's not as interactive, and that's what I'd like to see changed. I'd like to see the option open up of using invisibility to take a breath from the action instead of that being your main and/or only form of survivability. 

But I do see other opinions and I'm seeing that I'm probably wrong. 

 

[(PSN)Khrysamere]

2 hours ago, (PS4)theelix said:

I agree with the main point, I do not agree with the last sentence. Hardcore players aren't pressed by enemy damage more than their health and armor scaling. Why do I think this? Because the large amount of Endurance runners use invisibility and invincibility techniques. The most famous example I can imagine is Rio. His favorite frame is Ash, which removes all challenge of being damaged to death. His main hurdle in survival is enemy armor and health scaling, and that it becomes harder to kill the enemies fast enough to generate life support. 

I believe that it would ultimately be healthier being that damage reduction would still matter even in longer runs, and it would open the option to use more frames, and different playstyles outside of what I know of endurance runners to usually use and focus more on using gunplay and mechanical skill rather than ability spamming. As it is, anyone can do endurance runs by just playing a Seeking Shuriken Ash, or an Exalted Blade shadow step Excalibur. But that's not as interactive, and that's what I'd like to see changed. I'd like to see the option open up of using invisibility to take a breath from the action instead of that being your main and/or only form of survivability. 

But I do see other opinions and I'm seeing that I'm probably wrong. 

 

That's true, from what I've gathered Damage avoidance is superior to being a tank at extremely high levels. Not that being a tank is bad of course, you can easily get to Level 200 with an Ice Chroma (And possibly even higher once Shield Gating becomes a thing), it's just that if you are trying to get to those insanely high levels you'll find that your tank is going to reach a point where it's no longer viable where as your invisible frame will still be able to keep going strong.

Of course, we are talking about the 1% of players here. Your average Warframe player isn't going to be doing 300 Wave Defense Missions, or 5 Hour Survival Missions, And that's okay. End game is subjective in this case. To some people the End Game may be LoR, Where CC is extremely important so to them they may find CC frames to be the best. On the other hand someone may feel that Sorties are the End game, So they'll have frames specifically for different Sortie missions and thus feel that those are the best. Finally, there are the Endurance Players like the ones you mentioned, who may think that Ash is the best frame due to it's insane damage-scaling and ability to outlast all other frames.

^{and then you have fashion which is actually the end game, where you afk in relay's all day to hopefully impress people you don't know.}

Edited July 20, 2017 by (PS4)Khrysamere

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 7/20/2017 at 9:40 AM, DesFrSpace said:

Damage Scaling Caps is a STEP DOWN, because Scaling for WarFrames and weapons like DE's Damage 3.0 is not even out yet. Yeah most Frames have to spam-over-duration on higher level enemies, also not considering armor. 

Conclusion: This "damage scaling caped"(For WarFrames/Weapons) would ADD the the PROBLEMS.

Most online games last time I checked DO NOT have Player Damage CAP, unless they "HATE" that classes or is BIAS.

You really misread what he was talking about...

[Nazrethim]

On 20/7/2017 at 2:04 PM, (PS4)theelix said:

-snip-

 

On 20/7/2017 at 4:52 PM, (PS4)Khrysamere said:

-snip-

I would like enemy damage cappet at lvl 100. In fact, at that point, endless modes could feature harder enemies (even minibosses or outright bosses showing up) rather than samey old grunts with grakatas that somehow hit for bazillion damage per bullet.

Also, we really really need Enemy units able to see (and potentially dispel) invisibility (Not Nullifier-style though. You keep your invi but it's meaningless against that specific enemy).

Another possible "feature" is enemies getting more resistant to CC past a certain point. Like, Enemies cap their damage and armor at lvl 100, but from lvl101 they get 1% CC duration reduction on them per level up to 75% for small common enemies, with high profile enemies becoming flat out inmune at lvl150.

[(PSN)theelix]

37 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

I would like enemy damage cappet at lvl 100. In fact, at that point, endless modes could feature harder enemies (even minibosses or outright bosses showing up) rather than samey old grunts with grakatas that somehow hit for bazillion damage per bullet.

Also, we really really need Enemy units able to see (and potentially dispel) invisibility (Not Nullifier-style though. You keep your invi but it's meaningless against that specific enemy).

Another possible "feature" is enemies getting more resistant to CC past a certain point. Like, Enemies cap their damage and armor at lvl 100, but from lvl101 they get 1% CC duration reduction on them per level up to 75% for small common enemies, with high profile enemies becoming flat out inmune at lvl150.

• Hyekka Masters have highly sophisticated sensors that allow them to hunt and tame Feral Kavat, which have natural invisibility. As such, they are capable of detecting enemies with stealth, adding a further danger to some missions.

It's the most annoying enemy in the game for me. Fire damage is ludicrous versus our Warframes (especially those damn Napalms) 

I would like CC resistance, but only on some enemies and only to a cap of 50%. 75% is... 

Radial Blind reduced to ~4 seconds? And it has a three second recast timer and one second cast time, as well as interrupting your ability to fire? No thanks pls. CC abilities in this game in general need a rework before that. 

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)theelix said:

• Hyekka Masters have highly sophisticated sensors that allow them to hunt and tame Feral Kavat, which have natural invisibility. As such, they are capable of detecting enemies with stealth, adding a further danger to some missions.

In lore, in-game they can't see jack.

Quote

I would like CC resistance, but only on some enemies and only to a cap of 50%. 75% is...

Radial Blind reduced to ~4 seconds? And it has a three second recast timer and one second cast time, as well as interrupting your ability to fire? No thanks pls. CC abilities in this game in general need a rework before that. 

Seems fair.

Adding the miss chance on lowered PowStr would be a big hit on most CC abilities actually as most CC-focused builds sacrifice it for more Range.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Nazrethim

[tnccs215]

2 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

 

Adding the miss chance on lowered PowStr would be a big hit on most CC abilities actually as most CC-focused builds sacrifice it for more Range.

I personally think that is a positive thing. One of the biggest reasons there is for game breaking CC is the existence of CC abilities that dismiss power strength completely - allowing the use of Overextended with little downsides to overall effectiveness. Making CC dependent on ability strength would actually be a good balancing pass - quite similarly to when duration was changed to affect channeled abilities, making people think twice before using Fleeting Expertise. 

[Xzorn]

Scaling is used to combat Power Creep. That's it's purpose.

The only way to make enemy scaling damage work well is to make it soft cap or linear instead of exponential. The gap between Rhino's 125k Iron Skin and Nyx's 4k needs to be brought closer together and all damage reduction buffs would have to be significantly reduced. That's the only way it's going to work.

Right now there's just waaaaaay too much of a gap between options that the goal for fair damage is either unreachable or trivialized.

The biggest culprit of this scaling problem is the difference between our damage output and our survival. Our damage is in the form of mods and weapons majority of the time which any frame can use. Our survival however is only based on specific frames. Therefor some frames make it, others don't. This is what causes the community to not recognize Defensive Power Creep and instead just say X frame is Immortal when It's not. It's just the rare occurrence of Defensive Power Creep.

Ideally you'd want a system where eventually the player cannot deal with the damage being done to them but you also need this to run in tangent with their ability to damage the enemy. Currently it's not even close and the worst idea I think DE has ever had are T4 (Axi) damage multipliers which only serve to exaggerate this imbalance.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

the only possible way to admit your idea would be to modify spawning rates at a certain enemy level.  We all know what happens when there are too much damage numbers and enemies at the same time.

[mr.RazZer]

they should simply limit the enemy level scaling to around 300