Update to my Ember Nerf post

[Tsukinoki]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)D3L7A Z7R1K3 said:

What are you talking about the enemies she cannot kill are removed from the engagement by constant knockdown utilizing the firequake augment. So yes please tune ember slightly to bring her in line with the other frames.

So you think 2-5 enemies being knocked over per second removes all of the enemies from the engagement?
Because embers ult can only hit 2-5 enemies per second.

If you're in missions where enemies actually die to WoF (which to be fair deals less damage than her fireball and hits less enemies per burst than her fireball does)  or apparently "all" of the enemies are CCd by it then I can probably take any frame in the game and do the exact same thing.

WoF does crap damage, it hits very few targets per second, and at high levels its only good for the mediocre CC that can be performed much better by a lot of frames.

There's no need to nerf WoF.  The only thing that a nerf to WoF would do is make it so that ember can't even kill enemies sub level-30.

[blackheartstar_pc]

3 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

The problem to me stems from the design choice that pushes end game players to low tire missions.

I think this is the cause for the majority of "nerf this" threads.

[Tuoweit]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Solaire145 said:

Yes, it is how you want to play. You want to be a meaningful member of the party and contribute to the overall goal of the mission right? Well when you enter a public match then there is a 1 in 4 chance that someone does not care and wants to end it as fast and efficiently as possible. Ember is the best at that and you can't fault the frame or the person that chose to use that method. Especially low level scrub missions where if you sneeze to hard and the enemy dies. You don't even have to be exceptionally well modded to murder everything like its nothing. Like Jangkrik said, if it wasn't Ember, it'd be Equinox or Excalibur or someone else. But that is Ember's forte, take that away and the frame is practically useless.

You don't like feeling useless. I get that. But that's on you, not the player or the frame. 

Why is it the OP's fault, and not the person who joined a cooperative group with no intention of actually being cooperative?  If the Ember player is so focused on speed and efficiency to the detriment of the rest of the group, why don't THEY queue solo?  It would surely be even faster!  

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 7/26/2017 at 8:20 AM, JudgeXion said:

What if they just made you immobile when using world of fire like how Banshee can't move when using sound quake. 

I always thought they could give it a Peacemaker sort of tweak. Let her keep her mobility, but make the flames intensify and shrink into a cone and eventually a flaming beam that costs more over time. The damage will likely be better in high level content and remove the lazy-@$$, runner niche she's fallen into now.

On 7/26/2017 at 8:31 AM, tarfeef101 said:

No. Ember has been like this for years, and for a reason. She doesn't scale well into high level content. If you go to lvl 70+, you'd have to spam accelerant and wait like 10s for enemies to die (esp grineer). But on low level missions, any AOE damage will instakill enemies. Which is just the reality of the situation. Which is also present on equinox, and frost if you just spam avalanche, and the list goes on.

 

Either play higher level missions, or play solo if it bothers you so much

Doesn't that argument sound like exactly the reason her powers should be fixed rather than stay the same?....Just because they fix one broken aspect to the power doesn't mean they can't improve it at the same time.

[peq42]

On 26/07/2017 at 9:29 AM, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Please no. Sound Quake needs to be changed, it's not fun and people that use it are boring. Ember with firequake is a godsend on the defector walking simulator mission, least painful way to solo it I've found.

no it DON'T need to be changed

 

DE must stop destroying good frames by destroying their best abilities(like they did to ash wich now is useless)

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

16 minutes ago, elpeleq42 said:

DE must stop destroying good frames by destroying their best abilities(like they did to ash wich now is useless)

Ash isn't flawless but if you think he's useless in his current state it means you were never good with him. You just depended on spamming Bladestorm.

The same is true of World on Fire and Soundquake. If that is what makes them good to someone, then they don't know how to play those frames.

[Flaezon]

The answer is "balance"

[tarfeef101]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Doesn't that argument sound like exactly the reason her powers should be fixed rather than stay the same?....Just because they fix one broken aspect to the power doesn't mean they can't improve it at the same time.

It does not. Many people (myself included), who do not find low level exterminates, captures, non-endless fissures, etc to be fun love having a frame like this. It allows us to quickly get boring missions like nitain alerts, gifts of the lotus, etc. done and move on to the more engaging, challenging content. And while, yes, her damage will fall off (like most frames), she can still be used in high-level gameplay. Firequake gives her decent enough CC, accelerant is a nice buff in damage and in cast speed, her fireball augment can give teammates HUGE damage buffs... Just because most people don't use her like that doesn't mean she doesn't have end-game potential. Just not as a "kill all the things" frame at those levels.

 

But the main point I care about is the fact that there is nothing wrong with how she can speed up those tedious low level missions that you kinda "have" to do for most of the experienced playerbase. It allows us to get the boring crap done and get back to what we enjoy. It's not like we couldn't also easily kill with any other number of frames or even weapons. This is just faster. 

[Skaleek]

Does anyone remember ember before WoF was a toggle? Probably not because NO ONE played her. It probably just needs a range nerf. Or if you want you can bring back overheat in place of WoF, i'd be cool with that.

Even if you nerf ember another speedrun WF will take it's place. People dont want to bother with small potato enemies. WoF has a hard time with the nox now, as well as disruptors, and nullifiers/combas, and of course Kuva guardians. Ember doesnt clean the level entirely anymore.

Maybe in low level content where these types of enemies arent prevalent, but its not gonna matter if its an ember, an atterax, an ignis, or an equinox. People will bring the best tools for the job if they just want to speed through it. If a low level player wants the "authentic" experience, they need to make a premade group in recruiting chat, or play by themselves.

tl;dr Warframe has always been about providing players with tools that they can use at their own discretion. Ember is hardly the only offender that can make it hard for others to get kills, nerfing her would accomplish nothing.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Skaleek
Too many Commas, AHHHH

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, elpeleq42 said:

no it DON'T need to be changed

 

DE must stop destroying good frames by destroying their best abilities(like they did to ash wich now is useless)

It's almost like you never even played ash that much to begin with, if ash is useless to you then please try to build him for anything but his 4.

Old habits die hard.

Edited July 27, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

You're talking to people who play Warframe on daily basis spend  hours on end have everything in the game and have done everything in the game to not complete the mission as fast as possible to get what they wanted and you because you're in the mission for reason obviously to complete it.

[Open698]

WoF isn't a serious problem as it doesn't have a good scaling in late games.

Now what we have and ruin the gaming experiences are the "memeing strike" sliding people killing almost everything instantly.

 

16 hours ago, elpeleq42 said:

DE must stop destroying good frames by destroying their best abilities(like they did to ash wich now is useless)

Cuz everyone was spamming BS almost every games. Like old typical combos which are Simulor + Mirage or Boltace sliding all the way.

I love how they change Smoke Screen, casting it in mid-air and becoming one-handed ability(it doesn't interrupt reload animation just like Shuriken does).

Edited July 28, 2017 by Open698
typo

[-N7-Leonhart]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

You're talking to people who play Warframe on daily basis spend  hours on end have everything in the game and have done everything in the game to not complete the mission as fast as possible to get what they wanted and you because you're in the mission for reason obviously to complete it.

It's not a matter of speed at all. With or without Ember, the mission speed for an exterminate will always be more or less the speed the players run at. But if it's a low level mission with an Ember present, then all everyone does is 'run around' until they get to extraction.

Opposite of that, when in higher level missions, I ALWAYS have to pick up Embers because they go in with 300 HP/300 Shields and still expect to actually kill like in low levels. Basically, Embers are annoying across all levels, for different reasons. That's so hilarious that I almost forgot to laugh.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Ember is so weak with 60+ enemies. Nerf this, nerf that... :/

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On 7/26/2017 at 8:43 AM, (PS4)Magician_NG said:

Sorry I can't agree.  I never understood efficiency nerfs. 

Eventually, you'll also get to the point where you want to maximize your loot gains that are worth the time you spend playing.

And personally, I think it's hilarious to jump into a pug extermination with a maim Equinox and outpace the WoF Ember.

Or a Spore Saryn.

Heck, I can outpace an Ember with a Resonance/Savage Silence Banshee with a Gas Crit Melee if I push hard enough. 

[(PSN)Solaire145]

On 7/27/2017 at 9:59 AM, Tuoweit said:

Why is it the OP's fault, and not the person who joined a cooperative group with no intention of actually being cooperative?  If the Ember player is so focused on speed and efficiency to the detriment of the rest of the group, why don't THEY queue solo?  It would surely be even faster!  

A fair point, it would be faster, but I think its helpful. They'll finish a lot faster than me and that, to me, is a good thing. I think the vast majority of people playing want to get through grinding missions as fast as possible. Or maybe you really need to get to Sedna fast because the prime trader is going there next. Be nice to do a public match and get a high rank frame to pull you through the tough missions you can't really do yet. Or get to an alert for an orokin catalyst because those are rare. If all the fast runners went solo cause it was faster no one would be doing public anyway. 

[Soketsu]

No.

Why: look at ash for example, it was really necessary to put it in the long list of the under used stuff ?

[(XBOX)D3L7A Z7R1K3]

Weeks have passed and I just decided to main ember for basically everything. Killing everything in game without thinking twice so in my time playing ember I have received messages upon saying 'totally balanced' in squad chat first and I would get replies reading "kys" "gtfo kid" "do you have autism" and my personal favorite "you need to uninstall warframe and play minecraft loser" others are basically the same as above so no mention necessary. And it was no fun for both me and the other members of the team because they just searched for extract is the obj was not done yet like exterm for example running past the enemies waiting for me to kill them. How does no one see this as a problem? New players jump in and they will not have any fun with easy to setup ember. Efficiency does not equal fun. Its easy yes but its a lot to be desired. Have a nice day

 

[Doxorn]

So, should Ember get the Mag treatment? :D

[(PSN)abbacephas]

What he's really saying is #NerfTrinity.

[Gamma745]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

What he's really saying is #NerfTrinity.

[kgabor]

Lol, someone had similar feelings about my nuke Limbo once in an Invasion Exterminate (no, not even the Cata+stasis one, just the one that needs you to cast Cataclysm and immediately end it), said person was seemingly trying to top score as i noticed later on so yeah, as long as you don't grief intentionally with WoF Ember on low levels, hugging someone elses &#! during the whole mission who tries to melee something you shouldn't worry about this, some people will always be salty.

...But nerf threads are bad and you should feel bad.

[Tsukinoki]

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)D3L7A Z7R1K3 said:

Weeks have passed and I just decided to main ember for basically everything. Killing everything in game without thinking twice so in my time playing ember I have received messages upon saying 'totally balanced' in squad chat first and I would get replies reading "kys" "gtfo kid" "do you have autism" and my personal favorite "you need to uninstall warframe and play minecraft loser" others are basically the same as above so no mention necessary. And it was no fun for both me and the other members of the team because they just searched for extract is the obj was not done yet like exterm for example running past the enemies waiting for me to kill them. How does no one see this as a problem? New players jump in and they will not have any fun with easy to setup ember. Efficiency does not equal fun. Its easy yes but its a lot to be desired. Have a nice day

And what level are you playing at?  Must be incredibly low leveled.

And how would you nerf WoF?
It deals less damage than fireball.
Seriously.

Fireball deals 400 damage per hit, then does an extra 150 damage in a 5 meter radius.  Both affected by power strength and the secondary blast hits the initial target as well for 550 damage.
WoF does 400 damage per hit and hits 2-5 enemies per second with no AoE damage.

So Nerfing WoF would do what?  Make it even weaker than her 1 ability?
And if hitting and knocking down 2-5 enemies per second is "killing everything" then you must not be playing at a high level or with any mob density at all.

Maybe you should try playing at higher levels before calling for massive nerfs to something that is only good at the very low end of the game.

And seriously: What is the point of nerfing one of the weakest ults in the game?  What would it achieve once players are at and beyond Saturn on the starchart?

Edited August 4, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[ashrah]

enmber op? maybe on mercury... she is one of weakest frame in game in late game she can only be viable as  medicore cc....

[(XBOX)D3L7A Z7R1K3]

On Friday, August 04, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Tsukinoki said:

And what level are you playing at?  Must be incredibly low leveled.

And how would you nerf WoF?
It deals less damage than fireball.
Seriously.

Fireball deals 400 damage per hit, then does an extra 150 damage in a 5 meter radius.  Both affected by power strength and the secondary blast hits the initial target as well for 550 damage.
WoF does 400 damage per hit and hits 2-5 enemies per second with no AoE damage.

So Nerfing WoF would do what?  Make it even weaker than her 1 ability?
And if hitting and knocking down 2-5 enemies per second is "killing everything" then you must not be playing at a high level or with any mob density at all.

Maybe you should try playing at higher levels before calling for massive nerfs to something that is only good at the very low end of the game.

And seriously: What is the point of nerfing one of the weakest ults in the game?  What would it achieve once players are at and beyond Saturn on the starchart?

Sorry, its the minor bit of frustration when I am on xbox making an LFG post utilizing the game hub option and whenever I ask is it on invite only or public as soon as we land the person I am helping out that is new to warframe says "No or I am not sure. How do I change that." I really need to get that drilled into my brain to invite only and one person actually complained and I told him "do not try as its my fault for not hosting myself as I play on solo most of the time unless a endless fissure pops up. It happens" but I also need to realize that in warframe we are meant to be strong and not held down like *cough* destiny. So my apologies and now that I have this change of heart thanks to EVERY tenno on my last post along with this one it made me realize how wrong I was. I am sorry and I hope more people get to see my apology. Thank you one and all.