[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[Aftershock0]

Id like to see Undertow changed to a duration based ability. As it is now casting his other abilities with the constant drain of Undertow more often than not leaves you with very little energy, especially with his low energy pool.

Other than that I cant think much else to change that hasn't already been said. High pressure water Kamehameha that stripes armor instead of tempest barrage? 

[Sk3iter]

This rework is probably amazing especially for people who loved Hydroid before the rework but for some of the people who never enjoyed hydroid i don't think it's enough

i don't think it'll make me switch up my favorite warframes

His first still misses most of the enemies his second and third ability is just not my thing no matter what happens his 4th got better AI that grabs enemies now but it still doesn't deal enough damage to kill

i think hydroid could make a good cc but for me there are way more cc warframes that does the job better than him so probably Hydroid prime is gonna be MR fodder for me

other than that thanks for your hardwork DE i can't wait for Plains of Eidolon 

[Marvelous_A]

I personally think Undertow should be scrapped and replaced by a new ability but well whatever.

For now I think the priority should be a proper indication of Tempest Barrage charging. I think there is nowhere to see if the ability is charged already or not. It will be much better if we can see it in the crosshair like when you're charging a bow or something.

[13QZXXTTX]

THANKS for Sharing. I don't really need to go into Consoles Zones either. GTG

Don't forget, to read:

21 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Feedback appreciated here: 

[linoren]

" Tidal Surge will now pull enemies along for the ride. " - does not work

https://youtu.be/Ygc6KDzZpK8

also give his swarm an extra roll on energy orbs like nekros has for hp orbs.

Edited August 11, 2017 by linoren

[Ronger97]

The energy costs for things are still kinda high given Hydroids caster nature. Given this rework makes all abilities work while in undertow, why not have abilities cast in undertow cost like half the normal energy or something?

[TaylorsContraction]

Can the kraken occasionally chomp enemies for percent health finisher damage? It gives him something to do that's useful and scaling at the same time.

I understand why undertow had its range reduced but I feel it's too short. Can it be 6 meters by default?

[.Dracula.]

barrage does not get more range when you charge it. Hope you enjoy getting eximus leeches stuck in tentacle swarm and not being able to kill them. """""good CC"""""

[Windy_Wind]

There is still no reason to bring hydroid, he's fun I guess but that doesn't make him a worthy warframe. And the synergy seems really bland, damage is still meh and pointless. 

Thing I want to see added later:

1. If enemy is affected by undertow, Tempest Barrage will do base damage + 1% enemy max health, If charged, do 2% (number can be changed)

2. If enemy is affected by Tentacle, Tempest Barrage will have 20% disarm them or do the same thing as above

3. If Undertow is near by a tentacle, said tentacle will put enemy down to the puddle.

4.Undertow damage should scale base on the number of enemy inside the puddle. The puddle will do 1% - 5% damage based onf total enemy max health (same as how limbo cataclysm works)

 

[C.4.W]

First of all, thanks to DE for giving Hydroid a much required rework, Hydroid is my favorite frame in terms of looks and theme, chrashing into hordes of foes, flinging them all around or taking them down into depths and drowning them. It's a great concept!

That brings me to the main goal of this post: some points of constructive criticism. I'm not going to delay them any further and just dive into them (pun intended).

His passive: I'm just going to state that his passive is just junk. It doesn't do anything unless you're spamming slam attacks, which isn't really a viable thing to do in this game because of its high tempo. Slamming the ground for a chance at spawning a tentacle, so it's not even a guarantee, won't work for you.
I've seen some great suggestions from the community, like turning his dodge roll into a Tidal Surge, giving him the same treatment as Limbo. The range wouldn't be the same as the actual ability of course, that would be ridiculous and inconvenient. It is, however, alot better than his current passive.

Tempest Barrage: Great tweak, love what DE has done with this. The possibility to charge it up for a greater effect is very nice. Guaranteed knock down procs are very nice. Doubling the energy cost seems a lot, but the base cost of the ability is now cut in half compared to the previous cost, so it is a reasonable trade. You can go for a quick AoE CC effect, or go all in and double the duration and the damage. Nice change.

 Tidal Surge: This ability has recieved a tweak to be more in synergy with Undertow, which seems the main focus of the frame at its current state. Never really had anything against this, it's like a Rhino's Rhino Charge.

Undertow: So they made this Hydroid's main ability, his theme, his bread and butter if you will. I actually like this change, they've transformed this ability from a boring, static ability into a more interactive version of itself. Pulling in enemies looks hilarious and is a huge upgrade and moving around with Tidal Surge is a nice synergy. Hydroid is now able to cast all his abilities from within the pool of water and the abilities are now able to damage victims within the puddle. Still, there is something to remark here.
Such as: why does moving around cost energy? While being able to move around, he is still incredibly slow and moving 0.2 meters will drain 1 energy: that is 5 energy per meter! Why would DE give him this drawback?
Next up: damage. Now, in terms of damage, he does at max rank 25 base finisher damage, which ramps up over time. That... is awfully low. The base increase is 25 damage points per second. Doesn't really get any better here. To make a suggestion: make Undertow deal percentage damage. Undertow is essential to Hydroid's gameplay right now, especially now the rework is live. To make a comparison to previous overhauls: Oberon's Smite now deals percentage damage, Limbo's Cataclysm too. Percentage damage is a great way to help your damage output scale with the progression of the mission, while not breaking the game. The damage on this ability is everything but game breaking. It takes a long time to kill foes with this ability, and, as I have mentioned before, speed is the essence of combat in this game.
Another point: DE hasn't dealt with people playing Hydroid just to troll other people, trapping enemies in Undertow to delay the completion of missions. This is still possible because of the incredibly low damage output and the absence of the ability for allies to shoot enemies trapped in the water. Think of it as Mag's Magnetize ability. Shoot at the pool of water to deal additional damage to enemies trapped inside. It would give Hydroid so much more interaction with his teammates. This fix is not a reason to keep the damage the same, for solo mode is still a thing.
To summarize Undertow: DE has centered Hydroid around this ability. It now traps enemies easier because you can drag enemies into the trap and Tidal Surge moves the whole pool of water, trapping enemies you catch along the way. Abilities can be cast from within the water, but it seems unfinished. Damage is still lacking and Hydroid can still troll players by taking foes away from the whole team, extending mission completion concerning defense missions. This can be fixed by changing the damage into percentage damage and allowing allies to damage enemies trapped inside Undertow.

Tentacle Swarm: I find this ability very fun to use. Hydroid summons 10 tentacles, which proceed to snatch foes of the ground, slamming them into said ground or into the walls. The visual addition of the Kraken in the middle of the area is nice and the synergy with Undertow is quite fluid. I actually haven't found out yet whether the 10-tacles affect enemies trapped in the water, so I can't say anything about that. The doubling of the energy cost, again, isn't dramatic since the initial cost is now 50 energy, doubling it results in the usual base 100 for final abilities.

Summing it all up: I like the rework, I really do. It gives Hydroid more freedom to use his abilities and makes him a lot better. I find the playstyle unique, which is a good thing since I get bored quite fast when playing the same frames or same type of frames over and over again. The current Hydroid brings a lot of possibilities, but he isn't quite finished yet in my opninion, As you can see my complaints are for a good portion just about Undertow and Hydroid's passive ability. So I ask of DE: please look into those abilities. Undertow just needs a bit of patching up to be a well rounded ability and it would be nice if Hydroid got his passive reworked, maybe into a mini Tidal Surge on dodgeroll.

Again, a big thank you to DE for reworking this frame and a big thank you to the reader for taking the time to read this post. Ask me questions if you have them, other than that I wish you all a good day!

Edited August 11, 2017 by C.4.W
Spell check

[SanguisLator]

Hi,

Firstly have to say that the general changes to increase and enhance Hydroid mobility and the synergy of his kit - very welcome and for sure improve overall usability.

The key will be to determine the placement of the frame and its key tasks when comparing to the others.

Hydroid does not produce enough damage to be a clear DD frame. So we have to consider the use as CC.

Overall the additional mobility and synergy for sure help BUT its unclear why the inclusion of the ability range reduction and then a 'damage boost' option on 1 & 4.

Would suggest going back to the original size of 3 &4 as the base size.

Increasing the speed of minor movement on 3.

Running full range of movement when using his 2 when in undertow.

Inate Corrosive proc on 1 would help to account for the more random nature of his 1. If there's concern over the loss of function for the current augment - could change that to corrosive proc over time on undertow - 'Corrosive undertow'.

Other thoughts

Swap undertow to become Hydroids damage dealing 4 - energy cost similar to things like WOF damage increments on the scale of Banshee's augmented 4.

Current Kraken would become Hydroids 3 for choke control and Pilphering. Potentially a smaller range would then be Ok with the now more accurate tentacles. But would remove and reduce the charge time to just being a base key press to produce.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Radagosh]

Hydroid takes 150 puddle energy to kill 20 lvl 150 eximus bombards now. Problem is his gameplay now is to turn into puddle on a tactical good spot and stay afk for the rest of the mission.

[TotallyLagging]

Passive is still terrible

Barrage isn't instant at all and charging puts it in "definitely not instant" category

Tidal surge being interruptible with Undertow is a good QoL change but overall it's just another generic dash whose augment really should've been made built-in

Puddle QoL change is good but was the range nerf really necessary? Like, I (kinda) get nerfing Tentacle Swarm's range due to some people preferring a more concentrated swarm but this ability doesn't need that change. If anything it's worse now, since you have to pull enemies manually to compensate for the range reduction which costs energy. Also, it still takes away enemy and overall slows down your squad. Not as bad as idiotic Stasis Limbo or Frosts but, still, bad. Can't carry enemies around with the puddle either. And Curative Undertow's healing rate was nerfed heavily. It used to be able to heal you by 50% a tick...

Tentacle Swarm is about as useful as Tornado for CC, as in it's incredibly annoying for your teammates because you can't shoot the victims and they'll come back when the duration ends. It removes them temporarily while dealing minimal damage and that's it. Damage is still pathetic. And the Kraken? Seriously? A static model that shows up for a few seconds, wow, what a fearsome monster. Way to completely blew that concept. And trust me, the tentacle is still as unreliable as always. Mostly because you launch people 100 ft in the air and scatters groups when you cast them defeating the entire purpose of the range nerf.

 

His CC is still annoying. He's still good if you just want to sit on an interception point. He's still a loot bot with Pilfering Swarm. And I'll never want him on any team ever. I just hope the hype for the rework will settle down soon, getting tired of Hydroids dying on friggin' Sorties. Like how hard is it to just sit there and be a puddle?

 

He's basically the same, with some QoL changes and an increase in energy consumption. Boy, wonder when was the last time this happened ^{*cough* Oberon's rework *cough*}

Edited August 11, 2017 by TotallyLagging

[Evanescent]

Revised suggestions:

Undertow:

Instead of doing damage over time, let it randomly select procs from each equipped weapon's elementals to apply each second. For example, if you had corrosive and blast on your primary, radiation and viral on your secondary, magnetic and gas on your melee, it would select 3 random procs from all these elemental combinations and apply them to the enemies in undertow. Hence, you can indirectly control the debuffs being applied by undertow.

This will make Undertow a powerful scaling debuff skill. You would benefit from pulling enemies in and could soften them up for your allies, and gathered in a neat pile for all of you to mop up.

Let allied fire and projectiles to also damage enemies in Undertow! Imagine eating penta grenades and pulling enemies in to blow them up!

 

Tentacle Swarm:

Instead of flailing around, have them hold enemies up to provide a reliable CC allies could take advantage of. To synergise with Undertow, pressing E could have them drop caught enemies into your puddle.

 

Tempest Barrage:

Speed up shots, increase concentration, give environment punchthrough.

Clicking on an enemy while it is active should concentrate fire around it!

 

Passive:

Lucky Loot- Drops picked up by hydroid give him and his allies small random buffs: eg. ammo gives firerate, resources give status chance, etc. More Pirate!

[Buddhakingpen]

As someone that put his 1 ability key on his scrollwheel, i kinda resent the charge mechanic. But after getting used to its new button placement, its ok. 

Personally i would have rather them just swapped his 1 and his 2, and doubled his tempest barrages duration that way, but the gimmick is ok if DE thinks the width and drag mechanics of tidal surge is worth 50 energy. 

All i really want out of tempest barrages charge is some kind of actual feedback as to when you begin charging. Like make his hand start glowing or pull his hand back slowly and when he points his finger the barrage comes down. Something. But just guessing when i'm able to charge (since i spam tempest barrage to no end) kinda sucks. 

[Secave]

1 hour ago, Cyborg-Rox said:

HEY, HERE'S A THOUGHT! Maybe they improved the least used abilities so they would actually be used

Great, now we can move as slow as Assimilate Nyx :'DD. So... no thanks.

There are plenty of ways to change his puddle ability. Like said earlier or even tranform into a little puddle and move fast to flank ennemies (by combining with his 1 and 4). Or using multiple puddle as hiding spot/portals. I don't know something that will not making me afk and make me an active player.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Inb4 hydrpids running around as puddles, swallowing everything in sight

[Sajochi]

Hydroid changes didn't help anything. They didn't even address the real problem areas. His passive, 1 and 4 are still extremely unreliable. His 2 is just a generic charge. His 3 got a lot of unnescesary synergy tacked on for I don't know what reasons. DE is usually good about revisiting and reworking frames. They were all met with backlash but the community in the end realized that they were left in a better place than before. Hydroid wasn't. He's the exact same as he was before, but with a bunch of bs added so you can play as a puddle. Maybe my expectations were too high, as I wanted a frame whose abilities are engaging, fun, and reliable. At this point, I just want some consistency in his kit. 

Hydroid needs a full overhaul, and I really hope DE doesn't just tweak some numbers and call it a day. 

[Tain_OSkoom]

Damage dealt to any tentacle should transfer to every enemy held by tentacles. This effect should not be diluted by number of enemies held by tentacles.

This would change Hydroid from being, "Go away, you screwed up my aim!" to, "Okay, that was incredibly useful. Thanks, Hydroid, you're a hero!"

[Valdr_Hrafn]

Hi,
in this thread I will share my opinion/advice on how the Hydroid rework could be approached to be more universally loved.
I will soon update this page with some art to bring clarity to the points I make.

 

Here are some changes that still need to be made to the current revisit, in my opinion:

- Tidal surge should be treated as if Hydroid was at crouching height so it can pass through some obstacles it visually should pass through.

- Undertow should be treated as if Hydroid was at crouching height so it can pass through some obstacles it visually should pass through.

- While in undertow Hydroid should not be able to be detected by lasers, especially not those who don't touch him visually.

- Tempest Barrage should lock onto a targets current location so that it doesn't completely rely on RNG.

- I would also suggest at looking at my idea for a reworked 4th ability "4.1" as a potential improvement to his current ult.

- Hydroid could benefit from a better passive that isn't as bad. Maybe even something as small as my suggested (read below) empowered melee slam attack that summons a tentacle that slams with you once and then disappears.

 

Here is how I would've liked to see Hydroid's rework play out:
(warning this is quite drastic, but this change is meant to make his gameplay fluid, flexible and thematic while staying as clear as water)

Passive, Abyssal ocean: Hydroid's abilities and slam attacks leave energized water that merge together into connectedr puddles when close to each other, severely slowing enemies standing in it and regenerating ally HP.
Hydroid will summon a temporary tentacle when he winds up his slam attack that slams at the same time or shortly after and in the same direction hydroid is facing before disappearing immediately after, creating a line of water in front of him.
(if the heal is too OP should be done through his undertow augment) (puddles disappear when Hydroid runs too far away)

1, Tempest barrage: Hydroid marks a location for bombardment, where salvos lock onto targets location before impacting the ground and leaving energized water on the impact location.
(running targets won't be hit as easily as slow or non moving targets thus providing synergy with his passive that can slow targets if Hydroid attacked that same area previously. setting up and planning a battle is just as important as fighting one!)

*sizes are not representative of the final product*

2, Tidal surge: Hydroid dashes forward as a wave leaving behind energized water. 
(Tidal surge will remove status procs)

*Image WIP*

3, Undertow: Hydroid enters the energized water he left on the ground and move around quickly in it. While in undertow Hydroid can pull enemies INTO the water drowning them and devouring them which. 
(devouring is like performing a melee finisher and will scale with melee mods)(he can use tidal surge while in undertow to move from puddle to puddle without them needing to be connected and connecting them since tidal surge leaves behind energized water) (Undertow will remove status procs)

*Image WIP*

4.1, Tentacle swarm: summons a tentacle swarm at a target location, with unique hitboxes, the tentacles can be targeted to damage the victims the tentacle is currently holding. 
(low range could be used to create a anemone to shield an area, or alternatively use long range for more CC)

*Image WIP*

4.2, Tentacle swarm: toggle, big tentacles will spawn from nearby energized water and attract enemy aggro while slamming down in a line to deal damage to enemies and knock them down. after the tentacles suffered damage consistently for a certain time, or when Hydroid wanders too far away they will disappear. 
(I chose to make the tentacles destroy-able by time taking damage rather than the damage they take so that it scales better and don't get insta-killed in sorties or last forever in low level missions)

*Image WIP*

4.3, Tentacle swarm: combination of the ones above?

Augment idea: If Hydroid enters a puddle while affect by a status effect all connected puddles will adopt that elemental status and deal it to enemies within it

Please don't be afraid to post feedback and upvote/share/repost this post if you want [DE] to see it!

Edited August 11, 2017 by Cephalon_Ovis
Added Images

[Chimiasai]

'Had an idea (Bad english again):

Put Tidal surge in Hydroid's passive and tell: When Hydroid roll, he become a wave which drag ennemies with it and left them with a damage reduction.

It will give a new ability slot on Hydroid without screwing his moveset (Until you think rolling out Untertow it's a good idea :/)

[Sunseahl]

As a Hydroid main these changes ARE helpful.... He's now a more solid CC frame.... JUST WITHOUT THE ENERGY.

That's what peas my carrots over this.... Of all the changes he's had done to solidify that he's meant to be a Crowd Control frame.... No one at DE thought he needed the energy near to/on par with Vauban? WTF? Really?


I hope to GOD his Prime version, with Primed Flow, gets an added 200-something energy like Vauban Prime does. It's RIDICULOUS to have a power-gimped CC frame.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Sunseahl

[maoen]

As for me it's more like a revisite than a rework but thanks anyway. 

First ability: 
I dont get the utility of boosting the duration, because the damage is still weak even with the augment (the proc is way too weak even with 200% i needed 4 or 5 cast to strip armor from lvl 145). The impact are really random, i get the idea it's a barrage like a ship's canon but not worth at all.

Second ability:
Well pretty much nothing to say, just the disappearance of the enemies is really annoying.

Third ability:
The DoT increase is way too slow for kill, so may be add a status debuff based on the primary, secondary or melee weapon mod to make it more usefull for a team, like .
The energy cost while moving why? If to move i have to use my 2nd and provide CC with my 4th, the energy, even with 175% eff, drops way to fast.
A up of the ratio on the range may be appreciate too because the 3rd's range is too narrow to make it viable against corpus/grineer/corrupted.
I get that the speed movement have to be slow but right now the energy cost for moving that slow is way too expensive for the distance you travel from a point A to B
I love the mechanic on the grab but may be make it an AoE can make it more efficient.
Finally, allow allies to shoot them in the swarm (like 40% of the damage done to the swarm by allies is added to the ennemies inside) can make it really usefull.

Fourth ability:
As for me it's even worse than before because to make the cast worth you have to charge before release. The ragdoling is way too random the allies can't aim the ennemies, so May be decrease the CC time per mob
Make the tentacle slam them on the floor and make them stay that way
May be the ability can make them open for finisher.

So, as for me, with the up of his stats (which are really nice btw) Hydroid is rather a solo frame than a team frame, the CC he provide are good only for me him because his ability are selfish, it doesn't provide real help to the team because any of his CC ability make the ally unable to kill enemies controlled by Hydroid (ragdoll 4th, 3rd they disappear, 1st impact random you can't foresee their position, 2nd they disappear too).
So the frame is still not a must have in a team, because for loot you have nekros which is more usefull (in my opinion), for the CC well.. almost all the others frames are much better because their ability have no real side effect like the ragdol or the drooling with the tentacles/swarm that make allies unable to aim for them.

 

[Airwolfen]

Almost none of the main problems were addressed tbh.

Still hard to hit ulted enemies, 1 and ult still rely heavily on RNG. And some other points.

Only real 2 plusses are skill casting from the puddle and more active play in puddle.

[13QZXXTTX]

23 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Feedback appreciated here: