Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

 

I was looking towards an Operator gameplay that could allow me to be more like...dunno Snake from MGS.

Roll, teleport through the void, go stealth behind covers, kill silently...loads of stuff actually.

 

Yeah, but you can't actually do any of those things. Because Operator mode is clunky and slow, Void powers are attached to the movement controls, Operators cannot use or generate melee weapons, and the way scaling works is that if they get clipped by an enemy shot they go down.

 

Because one of the things which DE seem not to get about their own game is the effect of scaling damages and EHP ratios.

[shut]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

fight off a squad of Corpus Techbros with your sweet Void Blast and then dropping dead because your 'frame got shredded behind you 

Okay, this bothered me so much. A lot of DE's "scenarios" revolved around going Operator in the middle of combat, with enemies shooting at you from all directions.

Warframes are not invulnerable when the Operator pops out. They should be.
If DE wants players to use operators more during combat, then the operators AND the warframes should have a few seconds of invincibility. Right now, the only way to safely go Operator is if surrounding enemies are CC'd, or if the frame can somehow deal with the incoming damage-- in which case you've got the situation in the bag already and the Operator isn't needed.

[rdaitia]

The energy regen issue really is subjective. Many players comment that this game is too easy, well one of the reason is because any zenurik user can spam every damn skill in his arsenal with the right build. A naramon user can basically stealth kill the entire mission.

On the other hand, DE IS forcing you to use operators. But i don't see anything wrong with that, provided there are also changes that would make using operators pleasant and the overall gameplay is good. The game may be titled Warframe but Tenno operators are integral parts of the game ever since the second dream and war within. Those quests were arguably the best in the game. There are still questions unanswered regarding their lore. After those quests, highlighting the importance of operators, they have to be part of gameplay in some significant way.  In addressing this DE chose to make them part of the combat, let's see if they made the right choice.

[GhostLacuna]

8 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

Literally anything that isn't people sliding into walls with atteraxes with no chance of being attacked for four hours?

That already exists. 

just because a min maxers meta does exist does not mean i has to be followed even though i think macro atterax users should be adressed by the developers. 

People say mag is useless or that ash cant be used now but i have builds for both that i enjoy playing and i am not alone in playing builds and having fun no matter what people on the forums or youtubers say. 

You could try to spice it up. 

i create my own scenarios and test them out.

go to  adaro and pull all enemies and kill them of with hirudo comes to mind. Not the most effective way to play but it was fun to me at least :)

[TheVeiledScion]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

Besides the point that DE should have showed how the thing works and not release a confusing wall of text...

I am one of those players that doesn't perceive Operator gameplay as a problem; I was looking forward to it as an opportunity, a change of pace.

I was looking towards an Operator gameplay that could allow me to be more like...dunno Snake from MGS.

Roll, teleport through the void, go stealth behind covers, kill silently...loads of stuff actually.

Instead it seems I'm looking at a buffer, which is the most non interesting and boring way to see the operator.

The buffer is a good/awesome complimetary idea to a more fleshed out operator gameplay, not the only actual thing.

I mean, it would be great if at least one of the Focus trees actually allowed you to be like Snake... but how did you ever get that impression from what DE said or showed?

On that point, how exactly will Operator combat against Eidolons work?  Considering that these four-foot Operators can't even jump, what will we be doing, shooting at the Eidolon's legs? And who thought that was engaging gameplay?

[--Nef-Anyo--]

2 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

I must admit that i am still baffled as to why you as developers seems so intent to promote these convergence orbs. 

They are a very noisy and visually blinding spectacle that divert attention both by their flashing marker on the map and physical icon ingame

What is it about actively telling players to split the party and rush to some glowing orb 2 tilesets away that you think promote better gameplay?

These convergence orbs already hurt Defence and MD missions as it is. Now you can have all 4 players run for the orbs leaving the defense target behind possible leading to a failed mission. 

Your spawn logic is already at the present live build making them spawn at the outer limits of the current tileset your warframe is in. At the most i can have them spawn 2 tilesets away in large maps which is more then 100 meters away across several transaction doors.

As you seem to use a 225 meter grid system for PoE i have to ask how it will be handled there. 

Increasing the focus gain from these orbs will only ensure pug players will rush to it as fast as possible and try to kill as many enemies as possible during its duration. 

It does nothing to promote team play nor does it promote actually carrying out mission specific tasks unless we speak of exterminate missions. 

It only promotes a everyone for themselves playstyle. 

Its also confusing as hell for new players as they cant see the orbs and have no idea why more experienced players suddenly take off across the map to "pickup" something they cant even see. 

 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more with this post. If you want to promote focus why cant we have say "a focus over flow" rather than picking up an orb. It's so disruptive to the game play and not exactly fun having to go grab something. Like in the Jordas Verdict when Lotus says "Surge Incoming" we could have "Focus Incoming" :) 

[tertumase]

does anyone else like what I called the new focus lens (Noble Lens)

[GhostLacuna]

4 minutes ago, rdaitia said:

The energy regen issue really is subjective. Many players comment that this game is too easy, well one of the reason is because any zenurik user can spam every damn skill in his arsenal with the right build. A naramon user can basically stealth kill the entire mission.

On the other hand, DE IS forcing you to use operators. But i don't see anything wrong with that, provided there are also changes that would make using operators pleasant and the overall gameplay is good. The game may be titled Warframe but Tenno operators are integral parts of the game ever since the second dream and war within. Those quests were arguably the best in the game. There are still questions unanswered regarding their lore. After those quests, highlighting the importance of operators, they have to be part of gameplay in some significant way.  In addressing this DE chose to make them part of the combat, let's see if they made the right choice.

IF and only if they manage to actually make the operators smooth and fluid to use. 

So far we have zero indication that they will get anything but plain stat buffs. 

Unless the movement, controls and delay when pressing 5 and it actually being done so you can use your physical operator no lore, quest or focus will fix the underlaying problem which we have informed DE about for years. Heck we have bough up suggestions about how to fix it since day one. 

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

1 minute ago, Arktourus said:

I mean, it would be great if at least one of the Focus trees actually allowed you to be like Snake... but how did you ever get that impression from what DE said or showed?

 

AHAHAHAHAH.

I didn't get the impression from what DE said or showed.

I thought that would have been the logical evolution of the operator gameplay, the way it was logical to expand the game.

What I thought DE sit down and conceived:

"I mean, gameplay is fast with Warframe, people likes it because it's fast.

We (DE) give you an option to tackle the game at a different pace if you want to use it with new operator gameplay.

We will give you new tools to kill in a different way, for players' choice and variety"

But no, they changed Operator in a buffer that will only slow down fast gameplay

[MortalMercenary]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

A broader update here on a couple of additional tweaks! 

With this update I have one question. Will we be seeing an increase to our returns when we get refunded focus points with Focus 2.0 like with Fusion cores to Endo?

[rdaitia]

6 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

IF and only if they manage to actually make the operators smooth and fluid to use. 

So far we have zero indication that they will get anything but plain stat buffs. 

Unless the movement, controls and delay when pressing 5 and it actually being done so you can use your physical operator no lore, quest or focus will fix the underlaying problem which we have informed DE about for years. Heck we have bough up suggestions about how to fix it since day one. 

I agree, i did say that i don't find anything wrong, as long as they manage to make gameplay pleasant. I suggested a way to address the playability of operators as well 😊

[waterdude551]

thanks de

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

This is how I expected Operator to move + hard cover system

Jump should be void jump, not void walk + jump, evade should be void evade

[PsiWarp]

Hmm. Going to need to know the total amounts of Focus Points to fully unlock each school (including the Universal Passives opening to every school), before I can tell if the newly increased Focus Daily cap is enough or not. Just how many days would it take to unlock everything if we hit the cap each day consecutively?

[OniDax]

3 hours ago, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

AHAHAHAHAH.

I didn't get the impression from what DE said or showed.

I thought that would have been the logical evolution of the operator gameplay, the way it was logical to expand the game.

What I thought DE sit down and conceived:

"I mean, gameplay is fast with Warframe, people likes it because it's fast.

We (DE) give you an option to tackle the game at a different pace if you want to use it with new operator gameplay.

We will give you new tools to kill in a different way, for players' choice and variety"

But no, they changed Operator in a buffer that will only slow down fast gameplay

"Logical evolution". I think that probably means something different for DE than it does for you or me. For years players have asked for open world, as I have, knowing that it was a natural evolution of the game's various game modes. I wanted something similar for space gameplay with a proper space mode, with actual space fighters, because I think that's a natural expansion of Warframe's gameplay (expanding in scale and scope). But what DE did was make an open world with little integration of Warframe's current game modes and that actually doesn't feel alive because DE decided not to put any civilians in the open world area. So DE thinks the Ostrons bring culture, but it's not directly integrated into gameplay (you can't explore the Plains and run into a civilian town or anything like that). I mean, your scenario of DE wanting to offer players different tools for "players' choice and variety" are why I want DE to add more non-archwing vehicles, like hoverbikes and mechanical Golden Maw-like mounts and Grineer Dargyns and Ogmas that we can hijack - for player choice and variety. It's why I want to be able to use my Sentinel as a drone to recon areas. For player choice and variety. All these are things I think would be a logical evolution of Warframe. But nope. Apparently player choice and variety don't fit Warframe (at least according to some community members here). Things that I, and you, would consider "logical evolution" are not logical to DE.

I guess it's just a different perspective on games or something. I think it's because they're not really familiar with the action/adventure/shooter genre, and they certainly aren't familiar with open world.

[ggkawolski]

So all these new "passives" are staying activated abilities and not actual passives?

[tarfeef101]

22 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

That already exists. 

just because a min maxers meta does exist does not mean i has to be followed even though i think macro atterax users should be adressed by the developers. 

People say mag is useless or that ash cant be used now but i have builds for both that i enjoy playing and i am not alone in playing builds and having fun no matter what people on the forums or youtubers say. 

You could try to spice it up. 

i create my own scenarios and test them out.

go to  adaro and pull all enemies and kill them of with hirudo comes to mind. Not the most effective way to play but it was fun to me at least :)

1. Fun can exist, but the game doesn't encourage people to have it.
2. Agreed.
3. I also like mag, but I personally hate ash as he is totally a selfish frame. I have fun when I play, or I don't play. But I also don't like seeing others do that S#&$, cause it makes me sad.
4. I do, see above.
5. I do, see above.
6. Well I mostly just do endless missions cause most fun for me is from effort and challenge. So exterminate doesn't really do that for me. 

You seem to have made the assumption that I'm the kind of player who feels forced into the meta. Hardly. But I don't like playing with people who do the completely boring crap like naramon slide attacking into walls for hours, and it makes the game feel just kinda pathetic and pointless. So I'm happy to see it going away.

[BlueberryIsWar]

2 hours ago, Sorenxoras said:

You've never had a build that focused on channeling for it's abilities have you?

We are talking here about channeling your melee weapon. Not channeling abilities.

[BlueberryIsWar]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)OmegaSlayer said:

This is how I expected Operator to move + hard cover system

Jump should be void jump, not void walk + jump, evade should be void evade

Did you just show the worst devil may cry game in existence as to say how to improve something about warframe?

Boy, warframe is going down hill fast with this focus rework. From the best game ever where you can have fun spamming abilities to a neutered version of destiny 2, without raids and a pvp community.

[Geraion]

24 minutes ago, rdaitia said:

The energy regen issue really is subjective. Many players comment that this game is too easy, well one of the reason is because any zenurik user can spam every damn skill in his arsenal with the right build. A naramon user can basically stealth kill the entire mission.

On the other hand, DE IS forcing you to use operators. But i don't see anything wrong with that, provided there are also changes that would make using operators pleasant and the overall gameplay is good. The game may be titled Warframe but Tenno operators are integral parts of the game ever since the second dream and war within. Those quests were arguably the best in the game. There are still questions unanswered regarding their lore. After those quests, highlighting the importance of operators, they have to be part of gameplay in some significant way.  In addressing this DE chose to make them part of the combat, let's see if they made the right choice.

I've heard a lot of people saying they find the game easy without using zenurik, so what's your point? "Oh but because they find it easy without, so should you!" well I don't play warframe for the guns. I play warframe because I like casting the abilities they gave me to play around with. My abilities sets up my playstyle. I play mostly defensively (Loki main), max range, decent duration, max efficiency, tanked strength.

I don't need zenurik's overflow, but it helps in making my own, and my team's lives easier because I don't have to use nothing but the rakta cernos or spam pads for energy. And cernos is a burst once every so often because affinity, and the aura puts the new stack sequence on cooldown.  It's not a stabil regen.

So, given this, what's the problem in zenurik? It just gives you a passive bonus to energy regen, you're not forced to smack out tons of plat for an arcane set and then bound to 1 syandana or helmet for posterity to use it.

Naramon I agree with, but it still requires you to almost exclusively use melee (although you can somewhat cheese it with Ash...), so you constantly have to run, while just using guns, you don't have to always move up into enemy faces.

I really don't mind using the operator, but I just use invisibility before I use it...others are not so lucky to favor a frame that can stealth, or use a stealth mechanic... The operators must be appealing to use, as some people smarter than me said before in the thread, but they aren't aside from popping the passives 5 minutes into a mission...if it even is that long. They're weak and fragile, and only needed for certain mechanics...which is not really that fun... I personally am fine with the operators existing, It's just a shame that they're not a) an alternative to using a frame - b) they have something super good that no frame can do, but a long cooldown (and I don't mean the silly focus meter proc).

I don't understand why overflow's such an egregious thing to some people in a majority pve game... God forbid that someone can be efficient without spamming a tonkor 24/7...

[BlueberryIsWar]

I love how Zenurik energy overflow is seen as making the game to easy. Not like there are guns that wipe the map and maiming strike spammers aren't a thing. Aside from that, most caster frames are literally one hit kills, as opposed to the not so energy reliant tanks and invis frames.

But yeah, totally, its the zenurik user that destroy it. I mean, they still can spam skills if they stock up on energy pizzas, but nevermind that, remove the QoL that is zenurik.

They should just put passive energy regen for everyone from the start in. Then new player see that this game isn't just another shooter but actually an interesting game were you can use skills and have fun even if you don't like your Braton MK1.

[SolidJames]

31 minutes ago, davej83 said:

to all who complain.. first try it then affter u can " ask for some tweaks " 

 

I can safely say that I know getting shot would hurt without trying it myself to find out. You don't have to experience something to know you won't like it if you have sufficient information beforehand. We don't have to experience Focus 2.0 to know they have the schools shuffled.

[GhostLacuna]

7 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

1. Fun can exist, but the game doesn't encourage people to have it.
2. Agreed.
3. I also like mag, but I personally hate ash as he is totally a selfish frame. I have fun when I play, or I don't play. But I also don't like seeing others do that S#&$, cause it makes me sad.
4. I do, see above.
5. I do, see above.
6. Well I mostly just do endless missions cause most fun for me is from effort and challenge. So exterminate doesn't really do that for me. 

You seem to have made the assumption that I'm the kind of player who feels forced into the meta. Hardly. But I don't like playing with people who do the completely boring crap like naramon slide attacking into walls for hours, and it makes the game feel just kinda pathetic and pointless. So I'm happy to see it going away.

Which is exactly why i am here trying to provide feedback. Because while i do not love the operators myself i dont want to have other players who enjoy them being left with an half done attempt for 2+ years again. 

From what we seen so far the focus rework is entering alpha testing. 

The examples have nothing to do with the reality ingame and would never be used like that. This is probably coming from the issue that very few developers actually play higher tier missions of their own game. 

This is not good because while its important to focus on the playground for new players you also have to take veterans and where they play into account. 

we will always encounter min-maxers and macro users no matter the game personally i usually just leave the pug if i see that. 

The problem here is that DE choose very bad examples to give us. 

I rather see them actually take their own lore and design documents seriously. 

I dont know who let Madurai have a stealth ability to show off focus but it goes against both the established flavour text for the school which is:

They followed the path of Engage The Enemy. Their swift, uncompromising onslaught, holding nothing back and recklessly attacking their foes, could vanquish an opponent before he had the chance to steel himself. Speed and savagery characterized this school. 

as well as their stated intention to have the focus schools being inspired by DnD classes. 

stealth is for rogues not for a focus school intended for something more akin to a Barbarian. 

I hope DE pull it off but i am far to old to not see issues with developers not following their own lore and designs. 

It usually end up with a flawed implementation of things no matter how good the intention was. 

Ónly when operators are fun to use and the focus schools give meaningful options will it be an upgrade from what we have today. 

So far it does not look like that is where we will end up. 

 

 

[OniDax]

3 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

 

The problem here is that DE choose very bad examples to give us. 

 

No, the problem here is that they seem to be out of touch with some of the issues plaguing the Operator system. They're looking at the stat issues, like low energy and health, but not at the actual mechanics of Operator gameplay. That's an issue that's more than just giving us bad examples.

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

@phoenix1992 I know that. I was refering to Steve own words, when talking about Oberon feedback.

Making the feedback itself is easy enough. Many of us have some background in either Development, QA, PR, maintenance and what's not considering games and other media. (I was a QA for a game studio, now in the maintenance, because being QA is fun, but nerve wrecking, especially a game QA).

Hell I can outline a system that would marginally improve the way we perceive operators, affinity and the Opetaror mode, in a matter a fast Brain storm session. And you know what, since this won't cost me an arm and a leg to expand, I will trow a fast concept right now :

1. The very first starter is outlining genuine problems from technical level considering operators (they bug systems, they don't interact properly with some mechanics and so on), the critique from the dedicated base, and the general complains.

2. If we take this a base, the following topics should be addressed :
a) Operators vs environment - The Kuva flood missions are good examples of when and how the current system does not work. Examples - Operators are not sustainable in Solo Format, movement speed and stats are too low in order to tackle enemies post certain level.
b) Operators vs perception - Visual, audio and lore implementation of the operator system. Examples : taking in consideration what the player base is really disliking about the operators audio files "My warframe is strong", "I will learn from this encounter" and understand why. Play with the idea of visually differentiate between male, female and feminine/masculine Operator. 
c) Operators vs engagement - Are people engaged with how the Operator system effects the gameplay, if yes with what and if no - why not. Examples - I love Enegy Overflow, I dislike focus talent layout, I borderline hate that my operator is a blanker than Mr 0 Excalibro.
d) Operators and resources - How do we spend affinity and lenses, will new players find the ways to acquire affinity soft, will older players use the surplus of affinity for something.

3) Make a Pitch, while trying to fit in the theme of Warframe.
Common themes for Warframe are : Affinity with the Void (Eldritch horrors, magic, philosophical questions), Heavy customization of gameplay and visual aesthetics, Fast paced action moments, Demi God walking among men, Precision vs Chaos, The journey of the Warrior/Hero and others (Not over extending atm).

So a quick pitch would be - Give the operators more impact on your Loadout, focus on how different schools effect your Warframe, How the Warframe and the world effect the operator. 

Expanding on the Loadout impact and warframe effects. 
-If a player has high level of fondness for Berserkin in his Mighty Rhino, while waving the mighty Galtatine, ignoring stealth and long ranged attacks, his Operator would also have that higher level of affinity towards that type of Gameplay, and would nudge the Player to specialize in Marudai and Unairu, while providing SMALL bonuses to the equipment and a big upgrade if enough affinity is spend into the schools.
A small bonus in theory for Marudai would be +10% attack speed, +10% on Impact, Slash and Puncture, faster fire rate and reload time for shotgun weapons (and Bows/Special weapons like opticor), bigger maximum ammo for riffles. (this is only a pitch, not actual numbers to go by)
A big upgrade would be inner Life leach akin to Healing return, and tied to a modifier. Example - the more you kill in a mission (with weapons or specific abilities), the higher stack of Bloodlust you acquire (for the duration of the mission), the higher the the life leach value. A more "developed" option, with either higher stacks.or more affinity dedicated, would corrupt the ability - you take more damage, your accuracy falls off.
A small bonus for Marudai would be tied to outlasting the enemies - Lower status damage taken and lower status effect duration, a secondary shield and so on.
The big upgrade would give you the power to truly outlast your enemies - Last stand, giving you a small invulnerability window if you hit 1% HP each 30-50 secs (akin to the Oberon Augment).
Bonus round : Those effects only take hold if the Warframe/Weapons are rolling with this Lens equipped. So you are comparing benefits for a certain play style.
Secondary bonus round : With enough development time, you may spec more heavy in certain aspects of upgrades. For example you don't care about the Life Leach, and want only the damage increase - you spend affinity in order to customize your stats 

Expanding on how the Warframe effects the operator : 
Again, taking the notion of hulking berserker, due to prolonged usage of those powers and frames, your Operator would modify voice lines, appearance and how he impacts the battlefield on his own.
The player plays mostly Rhino - His Operator shows up on the battlefield with properties close to Rhino's but distorted from the Void. Iron Skin would give you the "skin", but would also provide spikes that hurt the enemies (again simple example).
The cost for the operator mode and the incentive is that when used, it would give you a big impact on the field, but on a great cost - diminishing your energy, shields and maybe even Health bar.

Expansions : 
Controlling urges - Your operator may a big fan of Tarantino Movies, but sometimes you simply don't want to blow up the place. You  can either use the same focus and frame combination and suffer with penalties, but reverting to null states, or you can simply swap the Frame and School in order to accommodate the missions.

This pitch could be expanded with fine tuning to any school, warframe and mainstream style (sorry fringe builders, there is a certain resource limit).

I dumped this exposition, due to your statement that Steve does not like the lack of feeback and suggestions. We can and have a lot of them, but there are multiple factors while not to share them :
1) We are dummies and have no idea what we are talking about
2) It hurts you on personal level if you dedicate enough passion to develop a system and for DE to ignore it (even though they most likely have good reasons for that ignore)
3) The crowd does not care
4) It hurts on personal and financial level if this feedback is taken, part of it is implemented and you get a simple "you did good" (or less).

@BornWithTeeth, you get a special mention cause you are dedicated salt master on the current Operator implementation.