Operators need to be optional, and focus needs to change gameplay beyond just having passives

[AdunSaveMe]

These things go hand in hand so I'm putting them into one post. Because they are absolutely directly related to each other.

People do enjoy using the operators. Many people don't. That's fine. But the real problem here is that for many things, operators are not optional. You aren't given the option of using them to spice up gameplay, or to approach a situation differently. You are FORCED to use them, because some things simply require you to do it. Like kuva guardians. And now, eidolons. People wouldn't hate the system so much if they weren't forced to use it. There is a big difference between a tactical advantage and an outright requirement. The former is simply a different approach, whereas the latter is the ONLY approach.

And on top of that, focus itself doesn't do enough to change operator gameplay. The biggest differences between the schools are a handful of unlocks that give you a different effect on an ability, but still don't drastically change the playstyle. Imagine Madurai playing like a fast super saiyan laser machine, while Unairu turns your operator into a slower, heavy-hitting powerhouse, with different abilities.

Different abilities being the biggest thing here. See, the abilities get some changes, like distance or extra effects or different numbers, but the mechanics of the abilities themselves generally stay the same. No matter what school you're in, you're still jogging around firing the same hand laser, sitting in the same invisibility, using the same dash. Passives are not enough to make them feel different, which is what the entire system should really be doing; giving you different options, and different ways to play. Different things, not different flavours of the same thing. If focus schools were more unique, operators would be more fun. If operators were more fun, more people would use it.

if requiring operators is done for the sole purpose of having people use them more often, then you might as well not bother. If forcing it is the only way to get people to use it, then there are big issues with focus and operators that need to be addressed.

But at the end of the day, nobody should be outright forced to choose between using an operator or just going home. It's only breeding resentment for the system.

Edited October 17, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Awazx]

+1

[Mr._Clean]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

if requiring operators is done for the sole purpose of having people use them more often, then you might as well not bother. If forcing it is the only way to get people to use it, then there are big issues with focus and operators that need to be addressed.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 SO MANY TIMES

Archwing has the same problem yet instead of looking at incorporating it into regular missions, they just keep throwing mandatory archwing missions, alerts and other garbage at us. Make it another layer on top of the base game to enhance the experience, not its own thing. Unless they make the charges in PoE infinite I doubt Archwing will see much more use either.

 

As far as operators, I play Warframe for the WARFRAMES, not a squishy, slow, non-acrobatic, low damage emo-child who can't even handle level 30s without getting kicked back to his frame. Focus 1.0 was clunky but offered powerful passive bonuses, Focus 2.0 is slightly less clunky but moved more functionality to the operators and it dropped on an update where you're forced you use your operator constantly.

 

The only thing I like about switching to the operator is that slight speed-boost you get when popping out of the suit. Makes me feel like Iron Man or something idk.

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Mr._Clean

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Imagine Madurai playing like a fast super saiyan laser machine, while Unairu turns your operator into a slower, heavy-hitting powerhouse, with different abilities.

 

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Passives are not enough to make them feel different, which is what the entire system should really be doing; giving you different options, and different ways to play. Different things, not different flavours of the same thing.

The thing is, there already is a system for exactly that, and it works wonderfully and it's fun to use. There already are characters that offer vastly different ways to play. They're called warframes.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[AdunSaveMe]

16 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

The thing is, there already is a system for exactly that, and it works wonderfully and it's fun to use. There already are characters that offer vastly different ways to play. They're called warframes.

I don't know why people insist on repeating this as if it matters. They're not going to remove it. They're not going to take it out of the game. The operator is here to stay, just like archwing, so it should be made into something fun. And if it was fun, people would say stuff like this a lot less.

Like I said, being forced to use something that isn't fun breeds resentment.

Edited October 17, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Hexx]

i just really can't believe it's such a controversial opinion and it's considered selfish to want to use warframes more often than things that are not warframes in a game called warframe. like, i'm really, really shocked. an entire lifetime of being surrounded by video games and i've never come across an attitude like this.

 

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This point is meaningless. I don't know why people insist on repeating it. The operator is here to stay, just like archwing, so it should be made into something fun.

idk i think it's still a good point a little bit? it just seems like they're just trying to make operators psuedo-warframes which negates the whole purpose of both these entities, both in lore AND gameplay, so you end up with something frustrating and really, really, REALLY un-fun. they need a way to incorporate them so that operators don't actually overshadow the main star of the game which *is* the warframes. (supposedly, i guess, maybe, in a game called warframe, WHO KNOWS apparently)

first step of course would be making their utilization in physical combat optional as you said

[Fallen_Echo]

I wish i could upvote this more than once. +1

[AdunSaveMe]

6 minutes ago, alexorcist said:

i just really can't believe it's such a controversial opinion and it's considered selfish to want to use warframes more often than things that are not warframes in a game called warframe. like, i'm really, really shocked. an entire lifetime of being surrounded by video games and i've never come across an attitude like this.

It's not controversial.

6 minutes ago, alexorcist said:

first step of course would be making their utilization in physical combat optional as you said

Indeed. Small difference, but a huge impact. Once you make it optional you can focus on making it fun, so people WANT to use it.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

2 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

People do enjoy using the operators. Many people don't. That's fine. But the real problem here is that for many things, operators are not optional. You aren't given the option of using them to spice up gameplay, or to approach a situation differently. You are FORCED to use them, because some things simply require you to do it. Like kuva guardians. And now, eidolons. People wouldn't hate the system so much if they weren't forced to use it. There is a big difference between a tactical advantage and an outright requirement. The former is simply a different approach, whereas the latter is the ONLY approach.

And on top of that, focus itself doesn't do enough to change operator gameplay. The biggest differences between the schools are a handful of unlocks that give you a different effect on an ability, but still don't drastically change the playstyle. Imagine Madurai playing like a fast super saiyan laser machine, while Unairu turns your operator into a slower, heavy-hitting powerhouse, with different abilities.

Different abilities being the biggest thing here. See, the abilities get some changes, like distance or extra effects or different numbers, but the mechanics of the abilities themselves generally stay the same. No matter what school you're in, you're still jogging around firing the same hand laser, sitting in the same invisibility, using the same dash. Passives are not enough to make them feel different, which is what the entire system should really be doing; giving you different options, and different ways to play. Different things, not different flavours of the same thing. If focus schools were more unique, operators would be more fun. If operators were more fun, more people would use it.

if requiring operators is done for the sole purpose of having people use them more often, then you might as well not bother. If forcing it is the only way to get people to use it, then there are big issues with focus and operators that need to be addressed.

But at the end of the day, nobody should be outright forced to choose between using an operator or just going home. It's only breeding resentment for the system.

Same with archwing

[DigitalCielo]

2 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I don't know why people insist on repeating this as if it matters. They're not going to remove it. They're not going to take it out of the game. The operator is here to stay, just like archwing, so it should be made into something fun. And if it was fun, people would say stuff like this a lot less.

Like I said, being forced to use something that isn't fun breeds resentment.

you're not forced to use operator mode at all in fact the only thing you need the operator for right now is to fight eidolons, get kuva and maybe use it against sentients you can completely swear off operator mode and still be able to play warframe completely fine

[Volinus7]

Remember when they forced people to play archwing? Lol 

 

Fun and gratification are different things. Warframe doesn't monetize fun, it monetizes gratification. 

I would reduce grinding in Warframe to 1/10 and move all monetization to cosmetics if I wanted people to experience "fun" not a skinner box that keep poking customers with gear check and grinding. There're games without "frustration for money" out there and they don't use "frustration for money" as an excuse for stupid designs in their games.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Volinus7

[AdunSaveMe]

46 minutes ago, DigitalCielo said:

you're not forced to use operator mode at all in fact the only thing you need the operator for right now is to fight eidolons, get kuva and maybe use it against sentients you can completely swear off operator mode and still be able to play warframe completely fine

This is incorrect. Being required to use your operator for anything is forcing. Especially kuva. Kuva is required for many many things that are not connected to operators, yet they are still mandatory to gain it. And there is no other reason to use your operator because it simply isn't fun enough to appeal to very many people, so these things exist to force you to use your operator.

Both of these (operator-mandatory mechanics, and that being the only reason to use it for most people) are issues.

Edited October 17, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Marvelous_A]

Operators can be good for writing lore or doing cinematics, but in actual combat...not that much. I wished they would stay as a talking head. What done is done unfortunately.

On top of that, operators are extremely weak and fragile to start with, they can't even survive the easiest mission on Mercury alone. If you want the players to use them, at least make them more viable. Players will not ever handicap themselves if they have a better choice in a grinding game.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[WastedAlmond]

If the operators are here to stay and if they keep shoving them at us forcibly, they should make em actually fun to play and as the player avatar, be more customisable, so I don't resent seeing the kid onscreen. Personally, I'd like it just fine if they allowed us to be a faceless adult syndicate model if nothing else. What I'd prefer was to be able to make my avatar somewhat more relatable to me, if not even cool. I don't relate to super kids, I dislike the trope.

A non-sexed up adult operator would be cool for starters, and then add nice cosmetics, like augmented limbs, armor, existing warframe bits (for matching clothes yaaay) or whatever else fits the style of the game. Reason for me moaning about the visuals is that if something is ugly or not cool, I am going to be biased against it, even if it plays like a dream. I don't think generally kid characters can hold a candle to a well designed adult character, like a warframe.

I think if they want to push operator gameplay more, they should just make the operator into another warframe for you to pick. Albeit with more custom visuals than your typical warframe and a face of your choosing.

[SordidDreams]

8 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I don't know why people insist on repeating this as if it matters. They're not going to remove it. They're not going to take it out of the game. The operator is here to stay, just like archwing, so it should be made into something fun. And if it was fun, people would say stuff like this a lot less.

I don't know why people insist on repeating this as if it matters. Switching between two characters is never going to be fun, no matter what. The operator is slow, squishy, and weak, so it feels like a chore to play. Yeah, sure, they can keep buffing it until it's faster, tougher, and more powerful than a warframe. That'll make it fun to play, but then the warframe is going to feel like a chore to play. It's the exact same problem that Equinox has, except the game doesn't force you to play night form Equinox. There simply is no way around this, DE has designed itself into a corner, and the only way out is backwards. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can start pushing for an actual solution.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Lost_Cartographer]

I don't know why people keep complaining like kuva and eidolon's are half the darn gameplay.

Doubtful the TWO instances where they're mandatory are going to change, as it's obvious these complaints are hyperbolic.

[WastedAlmond]

4 hours ago, Littleman88 said:

I don't know why people keep complaining like kuva and eidolon's are half the darn gameplay.

Doubtful the TWO instances where they're mandatory are going to change, as it's obvious these complaints are hyperbolic.

For me those two instances are not insurmountable, but it is still a big part of the endgame and after hundreds of hours that endgame is a big part of the content I'll play. I'm not stoked, but I don't enjoy it either. Focus is a too grindy, so that's an extra reason for people to dislike em, as they are tied to eachother. Also for some there are undoubtedly non-gameplay reasons contributing to their dislike.

For me, the growing focus on operators as characters, is the part that cheeses my onions. The operators as they currently exist don't interest me at all and that kinda kills all the buzz from the new lore/quest stuff. And all the buildup leaves me thinking that there's going to be more operator stuff to come. I'd really like to like em, but can't. I feel they are stealing the limelight from warframes, the title characters. I came for warframes and their lore, but instead I have to settle for wonder kids. I really dislike the trope they are going for here.

I can't speak for others but for me, I'd like for endgame content to allow for me to play as the characters I like, not make me play as a character I dislike. And the direction of the game is "More operators" as far as I can see, at least regarding the main quest. So that means in all likeliness that there is going to be more than the mentioned 2 endgame + current quest scenarios. On my part its less hyperbole, and more trying to give feedback early on, before there is a potential bigger issue.

However it'd be awesome to end up with operators that are cool and fun to play for me as well, but that'd include big changes, so making em optional would be easier.

[AdunSaveMe]

6 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Switching between two characters is never going to be fun, no matter what.

Is that why people enjoy it?

[UltraLYT]

I have no interest to play Operator.

When I am done with the Energy Dashing part in Zenurik, I don't think I will farm the focus this time as I did in Focus 1.0.  I do not actually need it to kill the mobs.  Moreover, knowing that they will again destroy Focus 2.0 probably in a year or so, I will not do it again.

[Tellakey]

19 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

These things go hand in hand so I'm putting them into one post. Because they are absolutely directly related to each other.

People do enjoy using the operators. Many people don't. That's fine. But the real problem here is that for many things, operators are not optional. You aren't given the option of using them to spice up gameplay, or to approach a situation differently. You are FORCED to use them, because some things simply require you to do it. Like kuva guardians. And now, eidolons. People wouldn't hate the system so much if they weren't forced to use it. There is a big difference between a tactical advantage and an outright requirement. The former is simply a different approach, whereas the latter is the ONLY approach.

And on top of that, focus itself doesn't do enough to change operator gameplay. The biggest differences between the schools are a handful of unlocks that give you a different effect on an ability, but still don't drastically change the playstyle. Imagine Madurai playing like a fast super saiyan laser machine, while Unairu turns your operator into a slower, heavy-hitting powerhouse, with different abilities.

Different abilities being the biggest thing here. See, the abilities get some changes, like distance or extra effects or different numbers, but the mechanics of the abilities themselves generally stay the same. No matter what school you're in, you're still jogging around firing the same hand laser, sitting in the same invisibility, using the same dash. Passives are not enough to make them feel different, which is what the entire system should really be doing; giving you different options, and different ways to play. Different things, not different flavours of the same thing. If focus schools were more unique, operators would be more fun. If operators were more fun, more people would use it.

if requiring operators is done for the sole purpose of having people use them more often, then you might as well not bother. If forcing it is the only way to get people to use it, then there are big issues with focus and operators that need to be addressed.

But at the end of the day, nobody should be outright forced to choose between using an operator or just going home. It's only breeding resentment for the system.

Couldn't agree more. There is also the issue of purpose. We are fighting Eidolons to unlock higher ranks in Quills, which in turn will give us better weapons and augments, which will help us hunt more Eidolons, to unlock higher ranks in Quills, which in turn will give us better weapons, which will help us hunt more Eidolons, which will do what? Oh right... HELP US FRIGGING GET HIGHER RANKS AND WEAPONS TO FIGHT MORE EIDOLONS!!!!

What would help Operators in my opinion is their own unique fighting style against NORMAL enemies and not only Eidolons, Sentients, etc... Also, adding some kind of synergy between your Operator and current frame would be amazing. Like a special attack combining their powers or something.

[Shifted]

This is the first "operators suck" thread I've seen that I can agree with.

Some really good points made, OP.
Hopefully DE can see it and improve on Focus 2.1.

I'm definitely down for more varied skill trees, and maybe a bit smoother, more flowing operator gameplay.
Current transference, void dashing and operator combat just feels like a roadbump compared to warframes.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Shifted

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

17 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This is incorrect. Being required to use your operator for anything is forcing. Especially kuva. Kuva is required for many many things that are not connected to operators, yet they are still mandatory to gain it. And there is no other reason to use your operator because it simply isn't fun enough to appeal to very many people, so these things exist to force you to use your operator.

Both of these (operator-mandatory mechanics, and that being the only reason to use it for most people) are issues.

Still think people are over-exaggerating that whole kuva thing. Just because the system forces you to button press for a split second to change form, void dash, then return to your frame four times per kuva syphon doesn't feel like enforcing a playstyle to me. It's like saying the game forces you to like puzzles because you have to hack one or two terminals every mission.

That said, I'll admit this update does feel like it's pushing operators too much as a cool thing when in fact, they are pretty much exactly as before, only slightly faster and more indispensable... Now I have to switch every 20-30 seconds to get my energy passives, and I have to spend a huge portion of time in operator form to even be able to damage eidolons... Plus now I need like 80 million focus to get my operator to full potential so he's capable to not be a squishy, slow child.

[Mattoropael]

Love to see how everyone is forgetting Chains of Harrow and the MR24 test.

[TARINunit9]

I wouldn't have a problem with Zariman kids if DE didn't keep doing annoying stuff like no longer caring about the characterization of Warframes (remember how awesome Inraros was? They had a golden opportunity to make Titania just as badass but spent the whole quest focusing on everyone else) or making doors that only open for Zariman kids -- thus implying that the Quills are a bunch of racist jackanapes who think that a central pillar of Tenno culture and the most powerful weapons ever developed are little more than crutches and bad habits that we need to kick

But again, mechanically I didn't have a problem with them. The fact that you were so SEVERELY handicapped in Zariman mode meant that you were rewarded for switching seamlessly in and out. Jump your frame to a safe spot, hit 5 E Ctrl + Space, and 5 again, and with good timing you had just defeated a kuva guard before he knew what hit him

That was until DE screwed up the Focus passives

The best part about Focus passives in the past was that it was built into an awesome Get Out of Mob of Enemies Free card that showed Zariman kids at their strongest and didn't leave your Warframe open as you used it. Now a lot of the passives lead to you doing counter-intuitive stuff -- like leaving your Warframe behind and going invisible in order to grant your Warframe a damage buff on the next attack, this makes NO SENSE, and to really make it clear they screwed it up they forgot to turn passives on for new players who completed Second Dream but not War Within. You can unlock a menu that is literally useless until you play an entire 'nother quest!

22 hours ago, Mr._Clean said:

Archwing has the same problem yet instead of looking at incorporating it into regular missions, they just keep throwing mandatory archwing missions, alerts and other garbage at us. Make it another layer on top of the base game to enhance the experience, not its own thing. Unless they make the charges in PoE infinite I doubt Archwing will see much more use either.

They're actually making Archwing LESS important and intrusive, i.e. forgetting to work on it in any way. Unless you're obsessed with doing every alert, it's more optional than ever. They never went through with that idea of adding it to sorties, Uranus almost NEVER spawns the tiles to use it, the most recent quest to use it uses it for about 2 minutes, and Titania lets you incorporate it into your normal mods and even get Archwing achievements without actually using an Archwing

Edited October 18, 2017 by TARINunit9

[Mr._Clean]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

They're actually making Archwing LESS important and intrusive, i.e. forgetting to work on it in any way. Unless you're obsessed with doing every alert, it's more optional than ever. They never went through with that idea of adding it to sorties, Uranus almost NEVER spawns the tiles to use it, the most recent quest to use it uses it for about 2 minutes, and Titania lets you incorporate it into your normal mods and even get Archwing achievements without actually using an Archwing

Exactly. It died because no one few people liked it, they failed to incorporate it well and made acquiring new pieces for the system exclusive to that system which made people feel like they had to start over, because they did. IT was it's own level system, mod system, weapon system movement system; it was well hyped and had everyone itching to try it, and once they did they realized: "this sucks". Because they tacked it on to the existing base game with it's own drops, mission-type exclusive rewards and mods.

It's not fun starting from square one when you've invested a lot of time into something and it's even less fun when that new thing feel unrewarding and restricted for the sake of slowing down progress. When you get squeezed that bad then it starts cutting in on fun (for some, I know there are a few who live for grind).

Anyways, this is very close to what they've done with PoE. It has it's own economy ecosystem where everything is self-contained, the content at launch is relatively minimal, the missions are unrewarding, there's a big 'ol grind wall, there's a bunch of bugs that are leaving a sour taste in people's mouths as a first impression.

 

PoE WILL die unless they:

• Improve it fast to prevent the toxicity against it from solidifying in the community.
  • This means stop forcing people to adopt new systems they don't like. Look at what they don't like about it and fix it instead of saying: too bad
• Continue to update and add content to it once the initial round of bug fixing and adjustments get made, don't discard it for the "next big thing"
• Link it in with the rest of the world. If they end up doing the open world Venus node like they said they wanted, if it's an entirely new ecosystem again like PoE with no link between the two and core game besides the Operator stuff, then everyone will jump ship to Venus and PoE will be abandoned

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Mr._Clean