Calling out those who hate the operators!

[Fallen_Echo]

Well hello there Tenno!

I heard many of us dislike the operators and due to other more important matters (insane focus grind, bugs and such) its not really talked about.

Lets take our time and write to DE why we have problems with operators and what can be done to change that (if its possible).

Heres my list:

1. Not enough customization, we need body sliders, hairs, eyes, more faces and atleast 50 more fashion items
2. Animations or as others said our operators move like chimpanzes in diapers
3. Voice and their lines. Seriously, even my shopping list sounds creepy with these monotonous voices. Rework them already and tone down the genocidal space nazi effects too.

[Xardis]

Voices are easier for you to say than do. This would require redoing every instance where operator speaks and adding new line. This may look like a lot but when we get more quests with operator speaking you will get the same situation like with Spearguns, DE has to add not one but a whole set of lines for every instance. I not saying Im against new voices, I want new sets, I think 4 more would be good. But if you want them, this is the time to pressure DE for it, before Sacrifice and other quests.

[SnuggleBuckets]

Signed.
If you've followed the recent topics on operators then you know I already 100% agree with needing a rewrite and recording of operators and direction in tone needs to be considered more strongly.

[Almagnus1]

I'd rather DE shift the focus system so that what we're earning on greater lenses, we're now earning on basic lenses so it makes focus farming feel doable to the newer players - rather than telling those of us with a ton of greater lenses (that we have likely spent platinum on) that it's not worth your effort.

[Foxbat40]

Game is called warframe not kid frame. 

Maybe change the name of the game if you are going to change the game's focus. (pun not intended)

1. Operator movement is different from warframe movement. Can't bullet jump, wall dash, roll, slide. Using the operator instantly makes me feel like my feet are stuck in quicksand. 

2. Why am I using the operator? Why can the operator kill things that my warframe can't. Why is it needed for Kuva?

3. Why have the operator mode in game at all? Your are segmenting your content even further. Already had Warframe, Archwing, and PVP warframe, Now we can add operator to this list.  Why not just make warframe? Expand content for warframe. 

4. If you intended the operator mode to be some kind of Super Saiyen mode  (SP?) for our warframes they don't feel that super. They move slower, are easily killed, disable all our other powers, don't do anything that some other warframe can't already do much better and faster.

 

Your original design might have been a better idea. Invincible kid mode with a special attack that adds some kind of buff or utility that a warframe might othewise not have.

 

As of now the kid frame is just a weaker less mobile warframe. It does not add anything new to our gameplay. 

[LSG501]

I don't really care about fashion frame (although I did buy a few choice pieces and obviously customise stuff) and I turn of the voices as soon as possible.

The problem with operators for me is that they were/are an unnecessary addition to the game and the new 'forced' use of operators for things like kuva and the teralysts are there just to try and validate their addition to the game.  IMO they ultimately added for fashion frame and I foresee a large influx of plat only fashion items for them coming in the near future.... and to be honest the OP kind of reinforces this viewpoint due to what they actually want adding.... 

I came to play the game due to the warframes, there's only 30+ after all, not some squishy little kid (which can die as soon as you exit the frame at high levels while trying to get zenuriks energy regen 'passive', it's happened to me).  If I wanted to play a game where I need to constantly switch between a 'warframe' and an operator there are games out there that were designed around that system where as in warframe the operator feels 'tacked on' rather than being integral to the game play.

I won't bother repeating my views on focus/quills here because I've said that in more relevant threads

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, Xardis said:

Voices are easier for you to say than do. This would require redoing every instance where operator speaks and adding new line. This may look like a lot but when we get more quests with operator speaking you will get the same situation like with Spearguns, DE has to add not one but a whole set of lines for every instance. I not saying Im against new voices, I want new sets, I think 4 more would be good. But if you want them, this is the time to pressure DE for it, before Sacrifice and other quests.

That being the case, it would sure would be nice if DE had not:

- Written them in such a thoughtless and annoying fashion in the first place, and then,

- Spent two straight years absolutely ignoring the tons of feedback they received about it on a regular basis.

 

Most of the time, when DE put themselves in a hole and can’t get out of it, you’ll find that there were community voices warning them about it all along.

 

Besides which!

 

There is an option for an imperfect but very significant fix for this which does not require recording all new voice lines.

Just program a dialogue wheel, let us load up a dozen or so slots with Operator dialogue lines which we can tolerate, and make it so that lines not on the wheel don’t get played. Done.

And let me remind you, DE programmed the Mandachord for one Warframe, Octavia. They can program a dialogue wheel for the Operator, which everyone needs to use for half of the current endgame content.

Edited October 31, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[phoenix1992]

You called?

So let's crack on it :

1. The focus schools do not effect the personality.
2. Cringe dialogue options.
3. Lack of official Tenno and Warframe bounding moments (something fan artists know is an issue and are working on, a lot).
4. CAN'T PET MY KUBROW AS OPERATOR.
5. The operator that I usually have to mute refuses to speak in both Harrow's and Gara's quest chains.
6. No NPC operators (outside of Rell, whom was treated like crap).
7. If I have to choose between the Operator and Clem, it is grakata all the way.
8. 10 million apologizes from DE. They have the operators for 2 years, the excuses that did not have the resources does not fly (especially with PoE's PR).

[Almagnus1]

IMO, the dialogue was a nice novelty initially, but it's not something I really want to hear all that often.

That and they should allow us to age the operator as many of us would likely respond to them better if they were a little older, or at least appeared older.

[BornWithTeeth]

@phoenix1992

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Yes

5. Don’t care

6. Kind of want?

7. Nah

8. Nah. Apologies irrelevant, just do it better

 

DE, please. We are not lying to you. Even people who like the Operators are included in saying this: the writing is bad. It is not good, DE. It sucks. I am sorry. But it is awful. The lines are cringe-inducing. The lines suggest that the Tenno have no idea what the hell is going on. The best argument against the idea that the Tenno were ever a warrior caste is to just listen to the voice lines.

We know what you are trying to do here. What you are looking at is not a failure on the part of the community to understand. You intend to have a long character arc, in which the Tenno begin as children and become heroes. We get it. What we are saying to you in return is that the writing at the first stage (post-Second Dream) and second stage (War Within) was and is bad. At this rate, a real child growng up in the real world, in real time, would be maturing faster than the Tenno, and would be more likeable.

 

Please think about this. We have been trying to get this across to you for a very long time now.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

There's nothing DE can do to fix the Operator in my eyes; it was like taking a hard left turn directly into a concrete wall. Even when they're mostly optional, I know - I know - that DE will continue to compel operator use and I dread those situations. To me, they're the equivalent of the "Play a Cubicle Dweller" parts of Assassin's Creed: Black Flag.  

I understand, however, that there's no going back, so I support changes that might make most people like them more. At the very least, DE might be able to move people from "I can tolerate it" to "I'm pretty happy with it."

[SordidDreams]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Lets take our time and write to DE why we have problems with operators

Because they are worse in every way than a Warframe, so playing them is less fun. They have crap damage, crap toughness, crap mobility, and they look puny and scrawny compared to the badass warframes. Their weakness makes them especially bad when confronted with enemies that are tuned to present a challenge to warframes, against which an operator dies instantly, but they feel bad even when just running around. Controlling them feels about as good as controlling Lara Croft did back in 1996. Of course I don't want to play them. Why would I?

I resent them because DE's solution to this is to just add enemies that are outright immune to everything except operators. That is an extremely inelegant and heavy-handed approach that results in nothing but frustration as you're forced to switch out of your fun warframe and into your unfun operator. DE has done a lot to make us use the operators, but nothing to make us want to use them. And guess what, when I'm made to do something that I don't enjoy instead of something that I do, I understandably end up resenting that thing and everything associated with it.

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

what can be done to change that

Nothing.

The common suggestion is to just buff them, which DE tried to do in PoE, but what are the possible outcomes of that? Possibility A, they will still be worse and playing them will still feel like a chore. Possibility B, they will become as good as warframes and there will be equal reason to play both. Possibility C, they will be better than warframes, so playing warframes will now feel like a chore.

Note that possibility B is absurdly improbable. Playing two characters in one and switching between their different abilities as the situation requires has been tried before with Equinox, and predictably it resulted in one form being outright better and used all the time to the complete exclusion of the other form. If DE couldn't balance one character against one other character, what makes anyone think they could possibly succeed in balancing one character against thirty four and counting other characters? It's not going to happen. It's just not. That leaves possibilities A and C, and neither is desirable.

The whole idea of operators is completely misguided from the start. Warframes were implemented first and were given a skill set that makes them extremely versatile and powerful. Operators are a tacked-on afterthought intended to be not-warframes. The fundamental problem is that the entire game was designed to be played with a warframe, so of course a character that is the opposite of a warframe, weak instead of strong, slow instead of fast, feels terrible to play that content with. The only way to make them relevant is to provide content designed just for them that a warframe can't do. But how do you do that when warframes are good at everything?

Well you either integrate operators into existing content or you keep them separate. If you keep them separate, you might as well just make a different game, so it's not a surprise DE didn't pick this option. They tried that with archwing and learned their lesson. The problem is the other option is no better. If you integrate operator-only content into warframe content, you have to make it magically immune to everything warframes can do, and then you end up in situations that are frustrating and feel like cheap bullsh_t from both sides. Oh, kuva guardians that I can't deal damage to for no reason. Let me just switch to operator real quick. Oh, regular enemies that kill me in two shots. Platforms too high for me to jump up to. Giant rooms that take ages to cross.

There just fundamentally is no way to make non-warframe operators relevant and fun without redesigning and remaking literally the entire game and all of its content, enemies, and tilesets to accommodate a non-warframe playstyle. And conversely the only way to make operators relevant and fun while keeping all the warframe-centric content intact is to redesign the operators themselves and make them into warframes in everything but name, in which case why not just make another new warframe.

DE designed themselves into a corner when they introduced operators, and the only way out of a corner is backwards. So far they're grinding their face further into it instead. This unfortunate misadventure has already done immense damage to WF in opportunity costs. All that money, time, and effort spent on developing operators that are used what, 1% of the time spent playing the game? Imagine if all that was instead spent on new tilesets, bosses, warframes, mission types, and refinements to core gameplay mechanics (and there's plenty to refine and polish!) that are used the other 99% of the time. Am I crazy for thinking that would be a better use of those resources? I just hope the devs see the light before it's too late.

Edited November 1, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Fallen_Echo]

14 hours ago, Xardis said:

Voices are easier for you to say than do. This would require redoing every instance where operator speaks and adding new line. This may look like a lot but when we get more quests with operator speaking you will get the same situation like with Spearguns, DE has to add not one but a whole set of lines for every instance. I not saying Im against new voices, I want new sets, I think 4 more would be good. But if you want them, this is the time to pressure DE for it, before Sacrifice and other quests.

They dont need to redo the quest lines only change the basic ones, you know as an expansion pack now you can talk differently.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

The common suggestion is to just buff them

I had 2 variant of buffs to do for the operator mode:

1) Void assasins, these are the demons of the void. INdoctrinated into genocidal maniacs and now under the hands of the Lotus, the fragile kids have grown up and became assasins. They can wall run (old wall run animation), jump higher (void jump with the height of a tripple jump), move faster (normal speed increased, sprint speed is atleast double) and use the traditional tenno gear with more efficiency ( general stat buff atleast +20% on all traditional ninja weapons including nikanas, thrown knifes and such). The void assasins possess increased survivability (base hp increased to 500), gained warframe specific armor (ember armor grants +30% fire damage, rhino grants +300 armor, ivara grants stealth field and so on) and the vast power of the void. Whenever a warframe would take lethal damage the safety systems of the transference mode would activate and eject out the operator to deal with the problems for the duration of the pre bleedout state (30 sec as an operator where you can revive yourself and 30 sec in bleedout if you failed that).

2) Fusion mode, when the need arises and the enemies are too much for you to take you can activate the operator fusion. When activated your frame loses 50% of its current health as a cost for great power. You gain +50% damage buff and +5% flat crit + status chance to all your weapons, while your warframe gains +100% power stat pre-set in the way you want (controlable in the arsenal you get a +100 points in the form of a slider slider where you can give this bonus to any of your stats). When in fusion mode your operator appears while wearing a shadow variant of the warframe you wear while having the same stats as you frame had when you activated the fusion mode. This mode is active for 1 minute total and It also has a cooldown system which prevents activating it more then every 2 minutes,

[Nyaa314]

19 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Heres my list:

 

17 hours ago, Foxbat40 said:

Game is called warframe not kid frame. 

 

[BlackCoMerc]

19 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well hello there Tenno!

I heard many of us dislike the operators and due to other more important matters (insane focus grind, bugs and such) its not really talked about.

Lets take our time and write to DE why we have problems with operators and what can be done to change that (if its possible).

Heres my list:

1. Not enough customization, we need body sliders, hairs, eyes, more faces and atleast 50 more fashion items
2. Animations or as others said our operators move like chimpanzes in diapers
3. Voice and their lines. Seriously, even my shopping list sounds creepy with these monotonous voices. Rework them already and tone down the genocidal space nazi effects too.

I agree with all of this.

But my main issue: Game play.

Operators simply aren't fun. Compare them to Warframe movement, weapons and powers. They are dull, underwhelming kids with sluggish movement, pea shooter weapons and too little health.

Who else introduces an End Game where you DO NOT GET TO USE all the cool gear and powers you worked so hard to unlock and tweak? It's like backward progression.

Honestly, if Zenurik didn't get me energy Regen, I'd never see my Operator.

[BlackCoMerc]

12 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Because they are worse in every way than a Warframe, so playing them is less fun. They have crap damage, crap toughness, crap mobility, and they look puny and scrawny compared to the badass warframes. Their weakness makes them especially bad when confronted with enemies that are tuned to present a challenge to warframes, against which an operator dies instantly, but they feel bad even when just running around. Controlling them feels about as good as controlling Lara Croft did back in 1996. Of course I don't want to play them. Why would I?

I resent them because DE's solution to this is to just add enemies that are outright immune to everything except operators. That is an extremely inelegant and heavy-handed approach that results in nothing but frustration as you're forced to switch out of your fun warframe and into your unfun operator. DE has done a lot to make us use the operators, but nothing to make us want to use them. And guess what, when I'm made to do something that I don't enjoy instead of something that I do, I understandably end up resenting that thing and everything associated with it.

Nothing.

The common suggestion is to just buff them, which DE tried to do in PoE, but what are the possible outcomes of that? Possibility A, they will still be worse and playing them will still feel like a chore. Possibility B, they will become as good as warframes and there will be equal reason to play both. Possibility C, they will be better than warframes, so playing warframes will now feel like a chore.

Note that possibility B is absurdly improbable. Playing two characters in one and switching between their different abilities as the situation requires has been tried before with Equinox, and predictably it resulted in one form being outright better and used all the time to the complete exclusion of the other form. If DE couldn't balance one character against one other character, what makes anyone think they could possibly succeed in balancing one character against thirty four and counting other characters? It's not going to happen. It's just not. That leaves possibilities A and C, and neither is desirable.

The whole idea of operators is completely misguided from the start. Warframes were implemented first and were given a skill set that makes them extremely versatile and powerful. Operators are a tacked-on afterthought intended to be not-warframes. The fundamental problem is that the entire game was designed to be played with a warframe, so of course a character that is the opposite of a warframe, weak instead of strong, slow instead of fast, feels terrible to play that content with. The only way to make them relevant is to provide content designed just for them that a warframe can't do. But how do you do that when warframes are good at everything?

Well you either integrate operators into existing content or you keep them separate. If you keep them separate, you might as well just make a different game, so it's not a surprise DE didn't pick this option. They tried that with archwing and learned their lesson. The problem is the other option is no better. If you integrate operator-only content into warframe content, you have to make it magically immune to everything warframes can do, and then you end up in situations that are frustrating and feel like cheap bullsh_t from both sides. Oh, kuva guardians that I can't deal damage to for no reason. Let me just switch to operator real quick. Oh, regular enemies that kill me in two shots. Platforms too high for me to jump up to. Giant rooms that take ages to cross.

There just fundamentally is no way to make non-warframe operators relevant and fun without redesigning and remaking literally the entire game and all of its content, enemies, and tilesets to accommodate a non-warframe playstyle. And conversely the only way to make operators relevant and fun while keeping all the warframe-centric content intact is to redesign the operators themselves and make them into warframes in everything but name, in which case why not just make another new warframe.

DE designed themselves into a corner when they introduced operators, and the only way out of a corner is backwards. So far they're grinding their face further into it instead. This unfortunate misadventure has already done immense damage to WF in opportunity costs. All that money, time, and effort spent on developing operators that are used what, 1% of the time spent playing the game? Imagine if all that was instead spent on new tilesets, bosses, warframes, mission types, and refinements to core gameplay mechanics (and there's plenty to refine and polish!) that are used the other 99% of the time. Am I crazy for thinking that would be a better use of those resources? I just hope the devs see the light before it's too late.

Slow. Clap.

Operators and the time literally wasted on them makes me wonder what WARFRAME could have gotten, had that time instead been spent on things people WANTED to play.

Well said.

[low1991]

I'm fine with operator provided that:

• #5 no longer warp operator to field. But pull current using frame into void dimension. (Not banish, but one where the 2 planes do not interact with each other, except for terrains, ur foot). #5 in liset/relays/cetus remains.
  • Void dimension should be something like an adrenaline shot to the frame, giving it speed buff. At cost of visual. (ie, in Void too much will put stress/strain on the operator in orbiter)
  • Operator ability (void dash/etc) turn into some other relevant more useful passives.
  • Kuva/Eidolon change to only receiving damage from [Void dimension] frame.
  • AMP turn to a weapon given to [Void dimension] frame temporary to dealt damage to Kuva/Eidolon.
  • Arcane? No idea, so far have yet to obtain any of them...
• Press & hold #5 give some real 'Oh S#&$' ability one time use per session. (Heard it from some Devsteam)

[Fallen_Echo]

32 minutes ago, low1991 said:

Press & hold #5 give some real 'Oh S#&$' ability one time use per session. (Heard it from some Devsteam)

Like the old ghost forms? It was my "Oh S#&$!" button whenever i got overwhelmed, i used it to get out of the situation.

[low1991]

13 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Like the old ghost forms? It was my "Oh S#&$!" button whenever i got overwhelmed, i used it to get out of the situation.

Idk. but the one you'r referring to doesn't fit my 'old S#&$' move... 

[Callback]

19 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

And let me remind you, DE programmed the Mandachord

So don't expect operator to be anything other than half-baked.  Got it.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Callback

[Fractalisomega]

21 hours ago, Xardis said:

Voices are easier for you to say than do.

Heh.... 

[o.0-]

What I'd like is to play more into the Void Demon aspect in gameplay. Where when we press '5' what we control is as an energy entity that emanates from the Warframe.

If all we get is being a ball of napalm that shoots the Void beam, that would still be a positive for me, as it reinforces the idea that the Operator is then only residing in my Orbiter and never leaves it.

I don't need to see a teenager running around my Warframe, when I need to use that mode, and other players can still choose what they manifest, if they still want to see their operator hop out of their Warframe.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

What I'd like is to play more into the Void Demon aspect in gameplay. Where when we press '5' what we control is as an energy entity that emanates from the Warframe.

If all we get is being a ball of napalm that shoots the Void beam, that would still be a positive for me, as it reinforces the idea that the Operator is then only residing in my Orbiter and never leaves it.

I don't need to see a teenager running around my Warframe, when I need to use that mode, and other players can still choose what they manifest, if they still want to see their operator hop out of their Warframe.

Current design implies that DE know the truth: if we could do everything in the game and CHOOSE whether to use the Operator...almost no one would use it.

If you have to force it...

[Lisztomaniac]

2 hours ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

What I'd like is to play more into the Void Demon aspect in gameplay. Where when we press '5' what we control is as an energy entity that emanates from the Warframe.

If all we get is being a ball of napalm that shoots the Void beam, that would still be a positive for me, as it reinforces the idea that the Operator is then only residing in my Orbiter and never leaves it.

I don't need to see a teenager running around my Warframe, when I need to use that mode, and other players can still choose what they manifest, if they still want to see their operator hop out of their Warframe.

just of the top of my head from reading your post it would be cool to get a "ways of power" node or something like that, that denotes that your operator has the choice to either, control power or become power itself, the talent would read something like:

"transference becomes Fuse conscience, has a maximum duration of 5/6/7/8s and a cooldown of 15/13/12/10s. while in this mode the WF becomes overcharged with energy unable to cast abilities,avoiding enemy collision, but gaining 65/70/80/95% damage reduction, becoming impervious to status effects (or maybe 25/50/75/100% resistance?), and gaining 125/160/175/200% move speed (base only). if  "Fuse concience"  extends past its 3s duration, the move speed decays by 40% each second and increases additional effect damage by 100% for the remainder of the duration. while "Fuse coincence" is active your focus tree bonuses are greatly improved (passives) or changed (things that are activated with void dash/blast/etc.). if Fuse Conscience is deactivated within the first 3 seconds, its cooldown the reduced to 5s"

the ability would morph depending on your tree choices, but it would always be something that feels like the operator overcharged the warframe turning it into an unstopable wrecking machine, unspecced this ability could just be a used the way void dash is used, a tool to get out of situations.

 the cooldown reduction if the usage is short its to encourage a zooming around the battlefield type of game, kinda like protoss zealots do in starcraft 2.

however when you invest heavily in your focus tree every focus node gets either a boost or a diferent effect altogether (madurai fireball would aadd a ring of fire kinda like the one ember makes since you wouldnt have void dash, im not an ember player sorry.). so players that dont farm focus would still have an excelent operator related tool, while the players that invested heavily in their focus tree would have the choice "do i want to play my powerfull operator to hunt today, or do i want to be a wrecking ball of destruction?"

the node as all nodes are, would be toggleable (one inside every three, not linked to any node but the 1st one so that you can have multiple playstyle choices no matter if you want operator or WF playstyle. 

it would be an "special" kind of node, kinda like the ones that got introduced in PoE.

another example of a morphed ability would be, energizing dash, instead it would just be morphed into energy pulses.

the speed/damage tradeoff its obviously for the idea that you suggested, while using it as a 3 second dash, makes it weaker but faster.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Lisztomaniac