Ash rework needed on console badly

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

You sir are totally wrong. Post a video or it's just plain out you spitting garbage.

You are absolutely wrong. I'd like to see you post a video. There are tons of Ash players that do fine. If you can't do it, then it's something wrong with your playstyle. There's nothing wrong with that, he's just not the frame for you. But you can't claim that he is useless. 

I use a controller and do fine with Ash and bladestorm. Even if I need to 4, wiggle, 4, I do good. He simply marks what the reticle crosses. An action that you do anyway. The speed at which he 3x mark could be up for discussion, but I still do well enough. 

If players are melting enemies with their primaries before you can bladestorm, then you shouldn't be bladestorming. At that point, your just more concerned about taking kills instead of actually helping. There comes a point (for some reason people in thread love to pretend that enemies NEVER become sponges) that bladestorm kills faster and is more reliable  than primaries. This is Ash's purpose. He kills tough enemies, while leaving the fodder for everyone else

Edited December 3, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

21 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You are absolutely wrong. I'd like to see you post a video. There are tons of Ash players that do fine. If you can't do it, then it's something wrong with your playstyle. There's nothing wrong with that, he's just not the frame for you. But you can't claim that he is useless. 

I use a controller and do fine with Ash and bladestorm. Even if I need to 4, wiggle, 4, I do good. He simply marks what the reticle crosses. An action that you do anyway. The speed at which he 3x mark could be up for discussion, but I still do well enough. 

If players are melting enemies with their primaries before you can bladestorm, then you shouldn't be bladestorming. At that point, your just more concerned about taking kills instead of actually helping. There comes a point (for some reason people in thread love to pretend that enemies NEVER become sponges) that bladestorm kills faster and is more reliable  than primaries. This is Ash's purpose. He kills tough enemies, while leaving the fodder for everyone else

You never have to prove your innocence you must prove your guilt. Proving to frame is bad is easily done as I can show you HUNDREDS of times I died constantly with Ash while with other frames I just clean house. This game needs no single target DPS FRAME as we have weapons for that. However you once again did not post a video of Ash being good and the only videos I see of Ash are of Loki/Ash. Staying in stealth running up a high multiplier which is not grounds for good game play.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

"If players are melting enemies with their primaries before you can bladestorm, then you shouldn't be bladestorming. At that point, your just more concerned about taking kills instead of actually helping."

Killing is the ONLY way to help in this game. 

That is the purpose of this game. 

Not one single team I have ever been on has asked for a "priority target" killer.

They want frames that melt masses of enemies quickly.

You obviously do not EVER do any farming.

[(PSN)LovesLost13]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

"If players are melting enemies with their primaries before you can bladestorm, then you shouldn't be bladestorming. At that point, your just more concerned about taking kills instead of actually helping."

Killing is the ONLY way to help in this game. 

That is the purpose of this game. 

Not one single team I have ever been on has asked for a "priority target" killer.

They want frames that melt masses of enemies quickly.

You obviously do not EVER do any farming.

Sadly. This is true. As much as I want to say Oh he is an assassin he is meant to prioritze targets.. but.. If it takes so long and can be janky way of doing it...  Chroma could do this job and like 50 times more however long his durability is. Not also mentioning the defense compared to ash. Ash does fall short. I think of other frames or "prioritize targets" but.. they can normally do giant aoes to help as well.. Ash does fall behind atleast when it comes to clear and.. he is only sorta good at priortize targeting. 

I say this about Chroma cause if it takes however many seconds plus adding janky ability thats supposed to help clear things. Chroma with the same wind up time being damaged or self damaging (not hard to do) now you have over 50s of clearing people out with one shot. no matter the target.

[SenorClipClop]

17 hours ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Can we get an Ash rework PLEASE! He has been nothing but pure trash since the "rework". Blade Storm is 100% unusable now in multiplayer and is a JOKE on console. Blade Storm needs to go back to a one button activation or scrap the entire skill and make a new one.

If your issue with new Bladestorm is aiming on console, I'm afraid I've never played WF on console and have no advice for you. However, there are other players who are on console and don't seem to have any trouble, so perhaps they can help you.

If your issue is that you can't do tons of damage or get tons of kills in multiplayer, the issue is that you're trying to use an ability geared toward dealing thousands of damage, to enemies with hundreds of Health. If players are easily killing everything faster than you can pop Bladestorm, the content is too easy to warrant Bladestorm's use outside of niche situations.

If you're comparing your kill/damage counts with new Bladestorm to your counts with old Bladestorm, you need to keep in mind that old Bladestorm, once activated, prevented allies from dealing any damage to enemies. The reason BS-spam Ash always had high damage number post-mission wasn't because he was necessarily better at killing, it was because he was passively limiting the rest of squad who could that do that work just as quickly. His allies could have killed them easily, but Ash wouldn't allow it due to how his spammable ult worked. It was rewarding for Ash players who liked having their ego stroked without the effort of playing the game, but punishing for players who didn't use the Ash Hole strat, in that they weren't allowed to damage enemies. Its exploitative and unfair mechanics gave players the feedback that made BS spam rewarding for their egos, and the change to Bladestorm made players aware that it was never needed for clearing throngs of low-level targets. The simple fact is that Ash was never needed as a nuke, and now that he isn't an insta-nuke anymore the people who used him for that have moved onto Ember, mostly.

If your issue is that you're now fresh out of quick nukers for low- to mid-level content, there are numerous options. There's WoF Ember and Overextended Cataclysm Limbo (effective, though you might annoy your pub mates). You can try high-Range AMD Nova, though that's not my cup of tea. I really like Mirage with the Lenz and'or Zakti for area damage, bunches of fun. 

If your issue is that you're dying a lot with Ash but aren't with other Warframes, it may be that you don't really understand how to play Ash effectively or are just better suited to other frames. It's not really a problem with Ash. We all have the same tools to work with, and there are numerous Tenno here saying they don't have any issue with him.

If you still need video proof of Ash's competence, though, here you go:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

"If you're comparing your kill/damage counts with new Bladestorm to your counts with old Bladestorm, you need to keep in mind that old Bladestorm, once activated, prevented allies from dealing any damage to enemies"

NO ONE argues this point. That has LONG been fixed and we can all agree it needs to stay gone. However now that it is gone automating targets SHOULD come back to speed up enemy selection and bring it back in line. Keep everything else the same if need be but get rid of those dag on marks.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

"If you still need video proof of Ash's competence, though, here you go:"

This is not multiplayer and only 8 - 10 enemies in a tight ball. Yeah that seems like actual game play to me. 

So yes Ash IS dead unless you play as Loki/Ash which don't we already have Loki and how many other stealth frames? 

Ash was a quick teleport assassin. Now as everyone has said before he is trash and too slow for this game. BS needs a MAJOR overhaul or to be scrapped all together.

ALSO this is PC game play where mouse shaking is a thing.

Edited December 3, 2017 by (XB1)Natfrog123

[Cubewano]

32 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

 

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all that video confirms is that nikana isn't a bad melee. ash's kit is barely used in it, and when it is it's for flare and doesn't really lend aid to the combat. 

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

all that video confirms is that nikana isn't a bad melee. ash's kit is barely used in it, and when it is it's for flare and doesn't really lend aid to the combat. 

And that ash can be off on his own and not be with the group.... The third scene there 2 allies laying dead while ash is off on his own. No one wants this. It isn't fun for anyone. 

[Cubewano]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

And that ash can be off on his own and not be with the group.... The third scene there 2 allies laying dead while ash is off on his own. No one wants this. It isn't fun for anyone. 

well anyone can be a hallway hero, that's not an ash thing. 

[(PSN)thowed]

12 hours ago, Cubewano said:

requires an augment, fatal teleport is more practical, can be done by operator and pretty much any frame with cc/stealth/barriers (that mesa is more durable than ash also so odds are she'd be picking you up), nobody should have guns to shoot loki with if they are being used right. Yes, he is useless. He's an underwhelming frame, with a kit that requires augments as a baseline to have a purpose, and even then he just gets a modicum of purpose in the sense of having good single target burst which is highly irrelevant given both the design of this game (horde shooter) and how most weapons are just as effective if not more in general scaling situations. I can only assume you don't have many frames if your fall back for easy solo is ash. 

Thanks for telling me what I see and play.  BTW take all the other augments off other frames that need them if that's your argument.  FYI I've never been picked up by a Mesa.  Picked up 100s though.  God bless.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

17 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

all that video confirms is that nikana isn't a bad melee. ash's kit is barely used in it, and when it is it's for flare and doesn't really lend aid to the combat. 

Other than Nikana Prime, all I saw was a video that proves his BS is pointless, niche, dated and completely over shadowed by melee weapons and FT.

Edited December 3, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Cubewano]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)thowed said:

Thanks for telling me what I see and play.  BTW take all the other augments off other frames that need them if that's your argument.  FYI I've never been picked up by a Mesa.  Picked up 100s though.  God bless.

I'm just being objective. And most frames don't need augments to function, which is my point, Ash with augments preforms less than frames with none, if a frame needs augments to function that's bad, if a frames needs augments and still barely functions, that's event worse. And maybe you haven't, but doesn't change Mesa is hardly in a worse spot for picks up than Ash, as is like a dozen frames, and anyone with ability to press 5 and crouch. He's no specialzied team saver. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cubewano

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:35 PM, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Would you mind posting a blade storm multiplayer console video then? I mean since you think this is nonsense surely you wouldn't mind backing that up with proof right?

A real ash player never cared about bladestorm to begin with

[Marvelous_A]

LMAO...if anything that video proves how pointless BS is. Stabbing a few enemies to death...well why should I choose BS over FT? Ash first 3 abilities are always fine. But the nerf put BS in a questionable position. Yeah stealth is good, I mean of course stealth is good coz it's a biggest cheese in this game. What he did in the video is going invisible and melee enemies to death. So again how does reworked BS help Ash to perform better? Just what's the advantage of using BS instead of simply going invisible and spamming E? The animation? To use your advanced aiming skill? To give your enemy slow and painful death? What? 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Marvelous_A

[Marvelous_A]

31 minutes ago, (Xbox One)BlackcoatOne said:

A real ash player never cared about bladestorm to begin with

Actually, any sane player will ignore Bladestorm coz it's a joke and just impractical to use. And that's exactly the point of this thread. BS is useless and need a real rework.

[Marvelous_A]

20 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

If your issue with new Bladestorm is aiming on console, I'm afraid I've never played WF on console and have no advice for you. However, there are other players who are on console and don't seem to have any trouble, so perhaps they can help you.

If your issue is that you can't do tons of damage or get tons of kills in multiplayer, the issue is that you're trying to use an ability geared toward dealing thousands of damage, to enemies with hundreds of Health. If players are easily killing everything faster than you can pop Bladestorm, the content is too easy to warrant Bladestorm's use outside of niche situations.

If you're comparing your kill/damage counts with new Bladestorm to your counts with old Bladestorm, you need to keep in mind that old Bladestorm, once activated, prevented allies from dealing any damage to enemies. The reason BS-spam Ash always had high damage number post-mission wasn't because he was necessarily better at killing, it was because he was passively limiting the rest of squad who could that do that work just as quickly. His allies could have killed them easily, but Ash wouldn't allow it due to how his spammable ult worked. It was rewarding for Ash players who liked having their ego stroked without the effort of playing the game, but punishing for players who didn't use the Ash Hole strat, in that they weren't allowed to damage enemies. Its exploitative and unfair mechanics gave players the feedback that made BS spam rewarding for their egos, and the change to Bladestorm made players aware that it was never needed for clearing throngs of low-level targets. The simple fact is that Ash was never needed as a nuke, and now that he isn't an insta-nuke anymore the people who used him for that have moved onto Ember, mostly.

If your issue is that you're now fresh out of quick nukers for low- to mid-level content, there are numerous options. There's WoF Ember and Overextended Cataclysm Limbo (effective, though you might annoy your pub mates). You can try high-Range AMD Nova, though that's not my cup of tea. I really like Mirage with the Lenz and'or Zakti for area damage, bunches of fun. 

If your issue is that you're dying a lot with Ash but aren't with other Warframes, it may be that you don't really understand how to play Ash effectively or are just better suited to other frames. It's not really a problem with Ash. We all have the same tools to work with, and there are numerous Tenno here saying they don't have any issue with him.

If you still need video proof of Ash's competence, though, here you go:

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You know, Ash's BS is hardly effective under lvl 100, and Ember's WoF is hardly effective outside lvl 30. Why we see lots of Ember but so little Ash after his rework despite both of them have limitations? Coz 95% of players don't fight lvl 150 bombards in their daily routines. "Bladestorm is not that useful until you fight really, really, REALLY powerful enemies" Yes you're right and that's where you're wrong about BS coz the said situation ain't happening on 95% of us and that's what we call, useless, coz his stealth+melee is a very viable choice up to sortie 3, even for really powerful targets, his 3rd can instakill them, and rendering his 4th practically a pointless ability most of the time. And on top of that, we have Mesa, whose abilities are effective from lvl 5 to lvl 150, and is overall a better choice than Ash in any possible circumstance.

[Cubewano]

30 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

LMAO...if anything that video proves how pointless BS is. Stabbing a few enemies to death...well why should I choose BS over FT? Ash first 3 abilities are always fine. But the nerf put BS in a questionable position. Yeah stealth is good, I mean of course stealth is good coz it's a biggest cheese in this game. What he did in the video is going invisible and melee enemies to death. So again how does reworked BS help Ash to perform better? Just what's the advantage of using BS instead of simply going invisible and spamming E? The animation? To use your advanced aiming skill? To give your enemy slow and painful death? What? 

i wouldn't say the rest of his kit is fine either, if you're just going invis and doing melee we have loki to do that better. ash's kit in general is somewhat lacking, with the only time his skills develop some level of potential revolving around augments and even then he's barely scrapping by. His ult is definitely the biggest offender, but improving the rest of his kit along the way would not be bad either. 

[Nazrethim]

On 3/12/2017 at 9:35 AM, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

Plus, why is everyone arguing about Ash in POE and talking about sorties, enemies and multipliers? The OP said in multiplayer he was unusable. 

Because they can't get out of their bubble metas they locked their minds in. Sure Blade Storm can wipe anything with Primed Fury+Arcane Strike+Riven Melee with 50% or more attack speed, and having Hunter Adrenaline/Rage+MaxEfficiency+Arcanes etc etc. Basically they say "oh yeah my super OP build allows me to use BS well", but as soon as you mention default values or non-endurance levels and what most of the playerbase plays, they fall back to that. They also cling to that "he's an assassin" bullsweet that makes no sense. Archetypes are adapted to the enviroment they are, if the assassin is supposed to face Hordes, then it should have a tool to deal with Hordes. Old BS was that, current is a discount Fatal Teleport.

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

if you're just going invis and doing melee we have loki to do that better

Not true. If you condense your gameplay down to only melee while invisible, Ash wins out for having a passive that empowers Bleed procs to deal 25% more damage and have a 50% longer Duration. That extra health damage gives Ash the edge over Loki in this respect. Loki has longer stretches of invisibility, true, but Smokescreen's activation stuns enemies in an area for even greater killing potential.

[Nazrethim]

58 minutes ago, (Xbox One)BlackcoatOne said:

A real ash player never cared about bladestorm to begin with

A real Ash player DID care about Blade Storm, but used it tactically instead of spamming it like a moron.

[Nazrethim]

20 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

If you still need video proof of Ash's competence, though, here you go:

The video is mostly melee attacks (not blade storm) and bladestorming individual targets (he already has teleport for that). Blade Storm pre-nerf stood out from Teleport because one was single target assassination with superb scaling while the other was a high-damage limited target AoE. It was balanced by having a limit on how many targets/attacks it could dish. The only change needed was to make allies able to kill enemies mid bladestorm.

Now, there's way more to do to current BS to make it good. For starters the job should be split with the clones (so if you mark 20 enemeis you get to see 5 cutscenes instead of 20 as it does now) and reduce the cost to less $&*&*#(%& levels (Like 5 per mark base). And multimarking is pure nonsense.

[Carnage2K4]

On 03/12/2017 at 10:44 AM, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Can we get an Ash rework PLEASE! He has been nothing but pure trash since the "rework". Blade Storm is 100% unusable now in multiplayer and is a JOKE on console. Blade Storm needs to go back to a one button activation or scrap the entire skill and make a new one.

You've not even said what you think is wrong with BS, because it's fine for me.

[Cubewano]

1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

Not true. If you condense your gameplay down to only melee while invisible, Ash wins out for having a passive that empowers Bleed procs to deal 25% more damage and have a 50% longer Duration. That extra health damage gives Ash the edge over Loki in this respect. Loki has longer stretches of invisibility, true, but Smokescreen's activation stuns enemies in an area for even greater killing potential.

That only applies if you are building around bleeds and your melee doesn't deal enough on its own to need it, in most gameplay it generally won't make a difference, constantly popping in and out of invis will be more of a burden. And Ash's stun only mildly mitigates the increased risk that comes from more frequently becoming a visible target, it isn't a one up over Loki's longer stealth, being targeted less trumps being targeted frequently but just not point blank, in a game with lots of ranged units. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

This thread is 100% a joke.