Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[Xzorn]

@(PS4)Rasmus_ep88 @Bladefeather

Yea, the closer you get to 99.99% damage reduction the more drastic a difference 0.01% will make.

The reduction in armor value also makes him more vulnerable to damage type modifiers. Similar to how Puncture damage seems to work well on lvl 30 Grineer but doesn't work well on lvl 300 Grineer.

Sadly, if the right damage type hits Chroma it can be much worse than a 100% increase in damage taken. In this example the old Chroma is hit with 1,000 Puncture Damage. Lets say a Nullifier's Lanka (Yea they're Puncture) which has a +50% Damage modifier against Ferrite and then the New Chroma is hit by the same damage.

-Old-
damage = 1000 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  30,593.64 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  30,593.64 * 0.5))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / 15,596.82)
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * 0.0192
damage =  28.85

-New-
damage = 1000 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  6,755 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  6,755 * 0.5))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / 3,677.5)
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * 0.08158
damage =  122.37

(122.37 - 28.85) / 28.85 = 3.2817 = 324% More Damage Taken

The lower the numerical value of armor the more vulnerable something is to damage type modifier double dips.

This is in addition to his eHP being effectively 20% of it's original value.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Xzorn

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

19 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

So... you are losing just enough hitpoints to fuel fury while being sturdy enough to take a few more punches. It's not a threat, but a fine balance, if you ask me, between taking shields damage followed by health damage. Shield damage will boost your survivability and then, the little damage you take to your health will unleash all the dragons!

Even under constant bombards' fire you should be just fine, considering most other squishy frames with far less damage reduction can take a punch or 3. so it's a relatively great nerf compared to the previous version of Chroma? yes. Was it mention that Vex is not functioning as intended? yes. Is the new Chroma keeping tanking capabilities. yes. Were some people banking on the fact that Chroma will never get fixed? yes.

 

Aham. so both values will be higher then, not just the pre-"nerf", right? I mean, post-"nerf" the elemental ward will take armor away from Chroma? :D

PS: Factoring in maxed EW for Chroma would lead to an insane 99%+ damage reduction. That's just broken! :D

 

Edit: I just had an epiphany!

With the damage reduction ner, one can no longer zarr/kulstar themselves into the peaks of damage boosts within seconds, because they might actually kill themselves! When you're talking about survivability, you're not afraid of the enemies, but yourselves! :D

Im not saying that the values with the current vex armor are fine/balanced, Im just saying that the entire argument from DE regarding the vex armor fix/nerf is based around the offensive capabilities of Fury.

In response, we are trying to make sure that DE properly consider the implications for Chroma's defensive capabilities.

[-GrT-kostasp99]

i dont like the nerfs in general , if it works good dont change it BUT only if it works good. I want to see in action the changes on the said frames and we will see. if you dont have it on your hands you dont really know how it feels, so a nerf is a nerf when it actually feels like a nerf. i will wait and see when the changes comes in the game.

 

Rebecca come to my ship i am sure that you will like the expensive decoration i have . Real Decoration not throw everything on the ground and call it a day.

[Himenoinu]

50 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

@(PS4)Rasmus_ep88 @Bladefeather

Yea, the closer you get to 99.99% damage reduction the more drastic a difference 0.01% will make.

The reduction in armor value also makes him more vulnerable to damage type modifiers. Similar to how Puncture damage seems to work well on lvl 30 Grineer but doesn't work well on lvl 300 Grineer.

Sadly, if the right damage type hits Chroma it can be much worse than a 100% increase in damage taken. In this example the old Chroma is hit with 1,000 Puncture Damage. Lets say a Nullifier's Lanka (Yea they're Puncture) which has a +50% Damage modifier against Ferrite and then the New Chroma is hit by the same damage.

-Old-
damage = 1000 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  30,593.64 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  30,593.64 * 0.5))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / 15,596.82)
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * 0.0192
damage =  28.85

-New-
damage = 1000 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  6,755 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  6,755 * 0.5))
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * (300 / 3,677.5)
damage = 1000 * 1.5 * 0.08158
damage =  122.37

(122.37 - 28.85) / 28.85 = 3.2817 = 324% More Damage Taken

The lower the numerical value of armor the more vulnerable something is to damage type modifier double dips.

This is in addition to his eHP being effectively 20% of it's original value.

For the sake of comparison, can you calculate the same damage output against other tanky frames? I wouldn't dare factor in the survivability of other frames that are sporting 15 armor and that would be downright evaporated if they don't have the energy to CC the enemies in place or disable them in some way before a bullet hit :D

[Autongnosis]

il y a 12 minutes, Himenoinu a dit :

For the sake of comparison, can you calculate the same damage output against other tanky frames? I wouldn't dare factor in the survivability of other frames that are sporting 15 armor and that would be downright evaporated if they don't have the energy to CC the enemies in place or disable them in some way before a bullet hit :D

Well the problem with that is that basically there are no other tanky frames that aren't either based on flat DR, invulnerable or haven't got at least some CC effects in place. IE: Rhino, Wukong and Valkyr fall into the first category Mesa, Mirage, Rhino and Nekros fall into the second. 

For comparison's sake Nekros with Health Conversion is the closes one and he gets this:

1.000 × 1,5 × 0,1 × (300 ÷ ((1.415 × 0,5) + 300) = 44.66 dmg taken

Not counting the fact that vs Corrupted and Infested Nekros gets 99% DR and not 90%, and not counting the fact that Nekros is constantly healing himself. 

 

 

EDIT:

Basically Chroma's defensive measire, which being armour and not flat DR is already the worst in game, gets completely destroyed by this change. It gets even worse because if it stays this way it will also stop factoring Ice Ward, not just Steel Fiber. 

Now i fully agree that his damage needed a fix since there was a BUG that made him double or triple dip onto multipliers on elemental damage. But completely @(*()$ up his only defence is completely unwarranted. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Autongnosis

[Jackal2k3000]

I really don't like the change that will be made to ember

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Himenoinu said:

PS: Factoring in maxed EW for Chroma would lead to an insane 99%+ damage reduction. That's just broken! :D

 

It's not as strong as you might think because it's armor based mitigation.

As I posted a moment ago, Armor has flaws against damage type modifiers and it also doesn't reduce the damage of bleed procs. This makes Trinity at  94.5% DR and Nidus at 97% DR much better at eating damage because majority of their mitigation is not from armor so even though Puncture damage will halve their armor they have 93.75% and 90% DR respectively that cannot be reduced while also being Immune to status effects.

The 99..02% DR Chroma that was mentioned drops to 97% against Puncture damage and he's not immune to status effects.

Of course it matters whats shooting at you. So lets say the other two are more "Reliable" at eating damage.

Trinity can instantly recover her full eHP and Nidus has good AoE CC. I think there's nothing wrong with Chroma having the most eHP but he doesn't, Rhino beats all of them. A single Bleed proc can bring Chroma down already and that's why I think they should get away from him using nothing but armor as mitigation.

10 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

For the sake of comparison, can you calculate the same damage output against other tanky frames? I wouldn't dare factor in the survivability of other frames that are sporting 15 armor and that would be downright evaporated if they don't have the energy to CC the enemies in place or disable them in some way before a bullet hit :D

Other frames would be a little more tricky since Trinity, Mesa and Nekros get their mitigation to Shields as well which has a -25% modifier against Puncture. It doesn't double dip though. It only does that to armor so it would depend on if those frames are taking the damage to shields or to health.

Nidus would be a quick enough comparison. The others I'd have to calculate twice for each.

-Nidus- Non-Puncture
damage = 1000 * (1 - 0.9) = 100
damage = 100 * (1 + 0)  * (300 / (300 +  780)
damage = 100 * 1.0 * (300 / (300 +  780)
damage = 100 * 1.0 * (300 / 1080)
damage = 100 * 1.0 * 0.277
damage = 27.77

-Nidus- Puncture
damage = 1000 * (1 - 0.9) = 100
damage = 100 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 +  780 * (1- 0.5)))
damage = 100 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 +  780 * 0.5))
damage = 100 * 1.5 * (300 / 690)
damage = 100 * 1.5 * 0.4347
damage = 65.22

(65.22 - 27.77) / 27.77 = 1.35 = 135% More Damage Taken (Compared to no Damage modifiers)

This should show that having 90% of that DR from a buff reduces the double dip effect since Nidus still uses armor but is taking half the damage of new Chroma. It's only when armor hits very high numbers like previous Chroma where the effect is not a tremendous problem for a tanky frame.

[Haeen]

4 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

Rather off-topic, but Ember players sometimes leave a defense map if there's a Banshee there. Even if a Banshee will not trigger, like you put it,

Player's sometimes leave when there is an equinox is present, but they do not quit the game.  Some people may desire a challenge, but it isn't a matter of them not being able to participate.

4 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

but becaue she'll give them the feeling that

When there's nothing to fight in a map, then there's no content. So affinity and drops don't motivate them to stick around for the duration.

Woah...no...that isn't how a human being works mentally at all.  That is an immense stretch to suggest that an individual looks at an Ember, a Banshee, or an Equinox and equates them as an obstacle.  Healthy human beings don't see someone completing content quickly as an obstacle and as justification to quit a game.

They simply go "Well...this is going to be a bit boring, I will go play a different mission."

The person isn't an obstacle.

Raptors on nuumah are an obstacle.

4 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

 

What needs to be done and DE can't do a doodoo about it is fixing the players' selfish or self-centered behavior in a group. I mean, there is a tool to fix it, composed from the recruit channel and the drop down menu that allows us to switch between public and friends, ye? But these two things don't actually help much, because if anyone would use them to avoid Limbos, Frosts, Embers and Banshees ruining their fun, we'd have a more segregated community and the hatred towards those frames would increase, even if they're all good frames that could prove invaluable in various missions.

As an example, when playing on Banshee, I was sometimes even telling the team that I can stop the quaking if they want to fight or if they get bored of just sitting there. I was using sonar a lot and sometimes intermitently using quake to avoid killing the enemies too far from my team. Of course, if no one cared about loot and were all just stacking on me, that I would abuse quake sometimes even past the point of being penalized for afk'ing.

Somehow, Embers never do such things. In 3 months of playing I only saw one player stopping WoF because the mobs were dying too fast in a fissure mission and we were in danger of completing the round without 10 reactants. Warframes are like guns. Guns don't kill the fun of the game. People do :D

Essentially this, hell, I was playing a game as Ember and noticed the enemies were dying too quickly. I shut off my WoF, and the rest of the team continued spawn killing the mobs. What happened?  I got blamed when no one had 10 reactant for their relics.  So I left. 

One other issue is that often times, people just don't communicate. I cannot tell you the number of times where someone goes  "I am leaving because there is an ember here."

Why not just ask them to shut WoF off? People are often much more accomodating than you think, but if someone doesn't say something, one cannot expect them to know.

Issues such as mobs dying too quickly ONLY occurs at LOW level content.  Which is the starmap.

You bring an Ember to a high level bounty for PoE and she performs much less effectively.

 

You can't balance the game around people failing to communicate.

[Himenoinu]

3 minutes ago, Aegni said:

You can't balance the game around people failing to communicate.

So can't we get a patch to hot-fix people's communication stats? :D

Also, again, fixing and hot-fixing warframes and weapons to accommondate players using them on Venus and in a 3 hours survival (not that I can see a reason to run that) is not gonna work. The mobs scale badly in terms of both mechanics AND rewards. Good luck adjusting the tenno arsenal to properly fit fighting mobs that love running around with 10 suits of armor on top of each other. Theoretically speaking, those mobs should have 0 mobility, similar to the turrets on PoE, just spinning around.

So bottom line is, these fixes won't change anything in the long run, not until the mobs themselves have an appointment with DE's comitee for clothing abuse and explain there why are they wearing all the armors issued for them to use over the year at the same time. I mean, I can understand a bit. Seeing the grineer living quarters, I'd pretty much equip all my clothes too. Not to mention that when hit by a blast weapon or being ragdolled, those soldiers should punch holes through the hull of the ship :D

Gonna leave it at this, I guess:  Every single warframe is capable to storm the Origins System post-nerf and there's very little reason to push far in a survival mission (seeing how drops aren't affected by the monsters' levels). That means, it's less of an urgency to balance the frames for the end-game and more one of balancing the end-game for the warframes to want to go above and beyond their call of duty :D

[robbybe01234]

Are things with Ember being changed because they are trying to satisfy a group that wants two mutually exclusive things? A want to be matched with various and random players while also not wanting their experience to be altered by the various encounters?  This is possible but all abilities need to not affect enemies or other players in any way.  So you'll be matched up but won't have your experienced changed by the other players around you. Just a thought.   Or is it to shut down afk farming?  But if it's just afk farming this sole change doesn't really solve that because of mod adjustment and really opens ember up to all the scenarios whete you get blasted because the dude was out of range.  How many times has that range saved your rear because it panicked the guy that would have one shot you?

 

Design ember for ember players not afkers or people that expect a single player experience in pugs.

Edited February 6, 2018 by robbybe01234
Designs

[Xzorn]

6 hours ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

chroma is currently more tanky than rhino if u play him properly how is he squishy?

 

You sure about that?

 

 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Xzorn:

You sure about that?

jeah it s almost 200k ferrit shield wow...how fast is it gone?

then to get the same value u have to rhino charge properly again

though it s someone else video and kinda old it still holds true unless u r unable to melee, but rhino charge augment is kinda useless in some situations too

Edited February 6, 2018 by Lord_Yawgmoth

[Fulmir]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:03 PM, [DE]Connor said:

MAG

Polarize - Shards created by Polarize now scale based on power strength, as well as the percentage of damage done to that specific enemy.

Crush - Each stage of crush emits a shield heal from Mag. Restores shields to nearby allies per damage instance, based on the number of enemies affected.

Any chance Mag's Polarize Augment can provide shields from Armor as well as Shields now? Right now taking that augment against Grineer is amazingly pointless and it really hurts Mag.

[(PSN)bluetheory]

Years after trying to get Ember Prime, Loki Prime  and the mods for banshee, I thought this unvaulting was a godsend. After reading the nerfs, makes me want to stop playing warframe all over again. I understand that DE is trying to even out the game, but why mess with a good thing? I feel like Resonating Quake and WoF should not have been touched,period. But what do I know? I'm just a lowly gamer who lost ALL REASONS to ATTEMPT to grind for these frames now. 

[Autongnosis]

il y a 56 minutes, Lord_Yawgmoth a dit :

Snip

Dude pls, do not bring a guy who only does locker room testing with maths that are wrong every other day to the discussion please. 

If you want to see how long those 200+k ferrite HPs last and how good Rhino is, just take a look at @Xzorn channel on youtube.

On the topic of the discussion, the whole point is that Chroma is the only tank that:

• Isn't invulnerable 
• Doesn't get CC at all
• Uses armour mitigation only
• Isn't immune to procs

All at the same time. Now think about it for a second, considering all of that why in the name of heck would you want to destroy his EHP pool which is the only thing he has going for it? After this nerf he'll be a decentish damage buffer and nothing else. 

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

jeah it s almost 200k ferrit shield wow...how fast is it gone?

then to get the same value u have to rhino charge properly again

though it s someone else video and kinda old it still holds true unless u r unable to melee, but rhino charge augment is kinda useless in some situations too

 

In all honestly that setup isn't very good and doesn't say much for "playing Chroma properly". They aren't even managing shields.

I get it. They're a youtuber. They want to make easy builds that players can copy but it's not properly maximized.

Here's mine. This one is older too.

Spoiler

 

It's quite easy to die with Chroma in spite of playing him perfectly. Vex armor's buff is calculated After damage is resolved.

Meaning if you've just cast Vex armor an enemy (Usually Nullifiers) can hit Chroma with enough damage to one-shot him before he's able to benefit from Vex armor. Which is about 11k damage for a 740 health build. A lvl 300 Nullifier does 20k with a single shot. This is not counting status effects which hurt badly at later levels and Bleed procs which will kill him in 2 ticks. Managing his shields doesn't matter in this case as he will not gain the armor benefits before dying.

Rhino is immune to status, able to get a higher eHP pool and instantly re-apply his full eHP. He doesn't need to be melee or ranged. He doesn't need to use a specific weapon, his Iron skin doesn't get double dipped by Puncture/Toxic damage and he doesn't have a fatal flaw with Vex armor's damage resolution.

Rhino takes damage better than Chroma but Chroma removes enemies quicker than Rhino. Why when people ask "Who's the best tank" I don't put the list in order because of the non-invulnerable damage eaters there's very little difference and it highly depends how good you are with active evasion but I can tell you right off that if you're not invisible; melee is the best way to die quicker.

They all make it to about lvl 300-400 before they start to fall-off. That is of course until this change where Chroma will have less eHP than my Nova.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Xzorn

[DaoNe]

What if ember's WOF becomes an active instead of toggle to counter AFK farm?

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

point is the current chroma is god mode regardless of the video i posted

while we r at it xzorns video quality is kinda bad (i cant even decipher the buff numbers maybe a utube prob?) and he doesnt explain anything in the first place at least the guy from my video tried...ofc he jsut tried to show what is possible for rhino and showed that point correctly 

since u guys r so knowledgable u should understand the point i made and know that chroma is basically immortal with good dmg output if u combine the right things

okay rhino with 200k ferrit armor should be immortal too, idk never played at that lvl cause my rhino dies too fast even  at those much easier sorties

but ppl rnt complaining about rhino here, they r complaining about chroma changes and state that he s weak compared to other "tanks" which is simply wrong

Edited February 6, 2018 by Lord_Yawgmoth

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

16 hours ago, (Xbox One)NeutralSilence said:

Mag can already do all that. Her Polarize still falls off hard at higher levels, but she can already give overshields and do damage. These changes are lackluster.

You just said she can't do damage, now you're saying she can. I'm not sure what's your point of view any more. All I'm saying is that she was missing damage dealing before imo, which this update might actually medicate. Of course I would have to see the math first, but a percentage of the armor + a percentage of the damage dealt to the target has a very good chance of turning Mag from a support frame to an overall good frame. 

You want to suggest increasing the effectiveness of shield polarize? Cool I'm down with that, but it doesn't mean she needs it at the moment. At least not for me. 

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, Lord_Yawgmoth said:

point is the current chroma is god mode regardless of the video i posted

while we r at it xzorns video quality is super bad and he doesnt explain anything in the first place at least the guy from my video tried...

since u guys r so knowledgable u should understand the point i made and know that chroma is basically immortal 

okay rhino with 200k ferrit armor should be immortal too, idk never played at that lvl cause my rhino dies too fast even  at those much easier sorties

but ppl rnt complaining about rhino, they r complaining about chroma changes even and state that he s weak compared to other "tanks" which is simply wrong

 

Like I mentioned. it's an older video before I figured out Youtube doesn't like certain file types / bitrates. All my recent ones are 1440p 50m bitrate.

I don't consider myself a youtuber though. I just post endurance runs with builds I come up with from theory crafting. If a player wants to understand how to play a frame there's plenty of videos to watch. If they want a maximized build using Arcanes and Focus trees or maybe something off-beat that comes out strong then that's what I do.

All the information is in the video's description well as the builds which I started putting in the videos cuz people kept asking instead of reading. I'd be doing 2-3 hour+ test runs if I recorded them or not so I figured might as well share. Endurance runs and min/max builds is kinda all that keeps be busy in Warframe these days.

I'm not trying to say one frame is better than the other. I'm just pointing out Chroma has some serious flaws already and DE is about to make them worse which is upsetting and unfortunate because Chroma's defense (If anything) could use a reliability boost, esp if they're going to nerf his damage.

[jiminatorx]

It strikes me as somewhat bizarre this discussion of chroma and rhino armor, both of whom can buff team and do massive damage... then compare to poor ember who has none of that and only does one thing well, and that is going to be taken away also.

[redxdog]

Been playing for years, only now started posting (2nd post) and wanted to ask if its possible to consider a different change for Ember

I play pretty much exclusively solo and like higher level content, so take my opinions as you will.

Also this might have been already said before in this thread, I apologies for repeating than.

Ember has no reliable CC. Her Accelerate having shorter delay than Banshee's silence and can not be used to restun enemies by dipping in and out of range. Her only CC to survive was always WoF and it was bad at its best (ancients would cancel the knockdown by absorbing it on themselves, and WoF had limited number of targets it could knock down at one time). Taking that away would basically leave her entirely defenseless even in places as low as solo sorties. Her 3 also cant really CC because it suffers from both being blocked by ancients and having super short duration you cant reapply.

She also has no defensive powers and low stats. There is only so many projectiles you can dodge in Mot before one pellet of corrupted crewman hits you from a mile away and ends your ambitions.

If AFK farm is the issue (an understable one), than maybe just nerf her damage? What about instead of reducing range and increasing energy drain you just make her damage scale from say 100% initial down to 10% or so in w.e time limit static or not, but letting her keep her range which is what keeps her alive and not bleeding her dry with energy.

Please consider.

Thank you!

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, jiminatorx said:

It strikes me as somewhat bizarre this discussion of chroma and rhino armor, both of whom can buff team and do massive damage... then compare to poor ember who has none of that and only does one thing well, and that is going to be taken away also.

 

Ember actually has a very strong group damage buff / debuff. It's just not good Vs Armor.

At 209% Power using her Fireball + Fatal Accelerant Augments she can increase Total damage by +585% which is only beaten by Eclipse and Sonar.

It's all amplified Heat damage though which is why it's awful for armor but amazing against Infested / CPx4 and decent for Corpus.

I've heard rumors there's something else in the works for Ember though, so don't count her out just yet.

[Haeen]

My concern regarding the Ember changes is that DE is being mislead.  That they are making the change thinking that this will make new player's want to enjoy the game more, when it would be the opposite of the effect.

What do I know though...

[An8rchy]

1 hour ago, DaoNe said:

What if ember's WOF becomes an active instead of toggle to counter AFK farm?

A long time ago, that was the case, players hated it, so it became a toggle, highly dout it will go back to it