Proving that ember's 2x dmg doesn't do anything, and a solution to her kit.

[SpyGhostOtissss]

Problem:

with accelerant, 200% pwr str and 100% more with that new "change" wof does 8k dmg: 400x2x(2.5x2)x2=8000

8k *fire* dmg.

a Lv80 heavy gunner has .4mil ehp which means it'll take 50 ticks of wof to kill it.

ember is all about cc in the end game. Her dps goes way down endgame because armor is a thing. You might say she's not that good at cc since only 5 enemies. And I would agree she is not a good cc frame. But in the end game, it is the only way of ember to survive.

solution:

-make accelerant a passive that scales with power strength.

-replace fireblast with this: flame demon: summons 5 flames(increased by power strength) that will move and track down enemies. When flame demon finds an enemy and hits them, it will strip 50% armor scaled with power strength. Can't recast until all flames found an enemy, the flames will circle around you if no enemy is found within range.

-make fireball do more dmg: 1000 fire dmg, 900 area dmg, area dmg range increased to 8m, 1000 more dmg when the enemy has no armor. (1000 may sound like much but in reality, the dmg is not that much since a lv80 heavy gunner has 23,628 hp(not ehp). this ability would be used to clean groups of trash mobs when wof is not on.

-new ability in replacement of accelerant: flame cloak, nearby enemies take fire proc up to 5 enemies. Do not do any dmg, just a replacement for ember's lack of defense from losing her cc.

keep the range nerf, I agree it was problematic for the game of how ember used 4 and walked through low-level content.

summary:

This makes ember a caster-glass cannon by giving her one defensive ability, but gives her many more dps by giving her the ability to stip armor.

 

[Skaleek]

Are you just paper and penning all this? Try WoF against a level 80 heavy gunner in the simac.

[-N7-Leonhart]

So it's better then to dominate the newbies by killing all their lvl 10-30 prey without having to even point at the enemy?

Edited February 5, 2018 by -N7-Leonhart

[SpyGhostOtissss]

3 minutes ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

So it better then to dominate the newbies by killing all their lvl 10-30 prey without having to even point at the enemy?

yup, like I said, nerf the range and add synergy to the abilities (:

[Deathbricked]

I get that your aiming at higher level stuff. But this "nerf" is for all the lower level stuff. If the DEvs (heh) put your suggestion in it would no longer be world on fire all the mobs away and just set up a macro for "1" and bring a trin... Everything is now dead but more inefficiently. 

[Darkvramp]

i think we agree that ember needs change, but ember needs change that allows her to survive, and making her get closer to enemies to do only 100% more damage at 2x the cost of energy per sec at half the range is not it. IT IS A NERF. it is a mag style nerf that reworks her into something she is not.

we want change, not NERFS

[SpyGhostOtissss]

24 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Are you just paper and penning all this? Try WoF against a level 80 heavy gunner in the simac.

exactly. have you tried? 

have you?

you know how long that shet takes?

I'm paper penning all this just to prove, and the "change" is not even out yet so no other way to calculate how long it would take other than to calculate how long it would take with that new 2x dmg!

[i_Lex]

Honestly I'd rather they bring back "overheat" in a toned down way. And make her 4th ability a high damage spike to 'easily' do massive single target damage. that way you still have a small aoe for cc, a damage reduc and a single target damage spike ability.

[ZodiacShinryu]

44 minutes ago, i_Lex said:

Honestly I'd rather they bring back "overheat" in a toned down way. And make her 4th ability a high damage spike to 'easily' do massive single target damage. that way you still have a small aoe for cc, a damage reduc and a single target damage spike ability.

Why tone it down? Because she is a DPS frame? Perhaps though it would be better to find a way to actively make it scale in battle. Overheat was too much when it first existed way way back then because she and Trinity out tanked everyone else by large margins. However now there are a lot of frames that have DR abilities that reach 90% that also deal high damage or support. Gara's Splinterstorm is basically Embers old Overheat but better because she can cast it on others and enemies and scale up the damage on the AoE around her.

Edit: They could just add the DR to WoF's ramp up if they wish to stick with that idea. That way she has some protection with her smaller range all rolled into her increased energy drain to help balance it.

Edited February 5, 2018 by ZodiacShinryu

[Skaleek]

53 minutes ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

exactly. have you tried? 

have you?

you know how long that shet takes?

I'm paper penning all this just to prove, and the "change" is not even out yet so no other way to calculate how long it would take other than to calculate how long it would take with that new 2x dmg!

Yes, I have. I know how poorly Ember's wof scales. Im illustrating that saying something is "proof" does not make it true. I haven't seen any hard proof in the post. At the very least, OP can go test it for real instead of just theorizing and see it for themselves. Double the damage of Wof does almost -nothing- for her scaling.

[SpyGhostOtissss]

4 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Yes, I have. I know how poorly Ember's wof scales. Im illustrating that saying something is "proof" does not make it true. I haven't seen any hard proof in the post. At the very least, OP can go test it for real instead of just theorizing and see it for themselves. Double the damage of Wof does almost -nothing- for her scaling.

numbers don't lie my friend. I am at least 100% sure that 2x dmg won't do anything.

[Korusagi]

And what if this 100% extra damage is affected by strength mods?

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

So it's better then to dominate the newbies by killing all their lvl 10-30 prey without having to even point at the enemy?

to be fair a 'high level' player doesn't even need ember to do that.....something as simple as mirage or even volt + ignis wraith (or similar) can be just as 'dominating' over the newbies on an exterminate mission with low level enemies. 

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

numbers don't lie my friend. I am at least 100% sure that 2x dmg won't do anything.

Numbers without practical testing are easily misrepresented. Also, 2x damage is 2x damage. Of course it will do something. It will do... 2x the damage it did previously....

 

I suggest you do some tests and report the finding from those tests, in addition to your number-work.

 

The changes that are proposed will make Ember a more effective close-range frame. I'm cool with that. I honestly see this as a mostly beneficial change. The only thing it really kills is the "nuke everything" build which is super popular. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Leqesai
Changes

[InDueTime-EN-]

3 hours ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

make accelerant a passive that scales with power strength

nope this is similar to just increasing the damage of everything by a certain amount. 

3 hours ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

ember is all about cc in the end game. Her dps goes way down endgame because armor is a thing

I don't see how this is a bad thing. This is a common thing in warframe. Hydroid, Mag, Nezha, Oberon, Equinox, Rhino. These are warframes that can deal damage in the early stages of the game but resort to CC at the later stages. Well, equinox can still deal damage, but he needs to use his weapons (or rely on his allies) to actually deal with higher level enemies. 

 

The issue that DE is trying to solve is Ember's impact in the early game not the late game. Yes they did mention that she will get the damage buff, but that was just to justify the range nerf. The nerf was their solution, not the best solution, but that's the one we have right now. 

 

Another solution would be to make her WoF a DPS again but to help it scale better, it will now deal more damage the longer a unit is affected. The base damage can be low maybe 200/s + 25%*the number of seconds. 

This would make the damage low enough that embers wouldn't just run pass enemies, but would still allow her to scale further into the game. 

 

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

i can agree with the op that solo ember is S#&$ against gunner with just her abilities...

but the game isnt about soloing

usually if u play high lvl stuff against grineer u have 4 ppl and at least 2 should have the armor reducing aura...usually i see 3 ppl with it, ofc there r exceptions too...

i dont know the exact number for gunner but since most of their ehp comes from armor that scary ehp of theirs becomes very small suddenly

then there is team setup, ofc u cant expect much from rnd runs but jsut looking how ppl look for certain setups to do teralyst runs u can assume that ember wont be left out 

u can add a buffrhino to make her aoe even more scary on top u can still use ur weapons to apply status debuffs on ur opponent like corrosion 

 

when i think of ember THE frame based on FIRE the first thing that comes to mind a is a super offensive glass cannon and dot dmg (burns), after all if u kill stuff faster then it s killing u, u wont have to think about survivability and i m pretty sure ember isnt the only caster assassin having a problem in high lvl content

 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Lord_Yawgmoth

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

5 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

So it's better then to dominate the newbies by killing all their lvl 10-30 prey without having to even point at the enemy?

 I get your point, truly, I do... But.. I have dominated the newbies using Chroma with Dread. Yeah, they got kills with their Excalibur, but we walked out that mission with me sitting at 72% of the damage with the kill count matching. I can name multiple dozens of loadout I got on deck that will dominate the newbs and have them twiddling their thumbs without relying on Ember, Limbo, Saryn, Mesa, or Ash to name the main Warframes who'd do so. Punchthrough alone on a decent weapon with me having better mods than them is good enough to make it so they'd get a kill a blue moon if I stuck near 'em.

Shoot, Supra/Supra Vandal + Zephyr to be a trollie arse with Tornados. Newbies get confused with Tornados around. Suck up all the enemies in a large space and pop them with the Supra.

[peterc3]

Your proof is numbers on paper and not actually playing anything.

Your solution is, among other things, replacing Accelerant with an ability that, more or less, does nothing. Makes Ember a summoner. What is this new fire themed frame that you have hastily created?

[Terrornaut]

I don't have the time or energy to touch this

But honestly if you're writing an Ember thread saying she can't do damage at level 100+ ... please stop.

There are so many ways to strip armor in seconds and also melt heavy armored units at level 120+ with her boosted total damage.

This Ember does no damage at high levels meme needs to die already. People need to stop building her with supreme ineffiency doing silly things like max efficiency and duration on a frame that doesn't need either.

The new change coming will make very little impact. Its a slight nerf due to overall energy efficiency - and I'm not talking about just the increasing energy drain.  Its there, yes, but Ember doesn't have energy problems. She will have to compensate for lack of survivability by recasting WoF every 8-10 sec to maintain a decent affecting range, get increased power, and possibly building for more range and less power than she should, but still with a focus on power.  If you aren't building for power and haven't tried it, please stop.

Ember is a CC and damage frame and in a party, is hard pressed to not stay on top for damage, especially if other frames like banshee or nova are present to severely boost her damage output.

[Maka.Bones]

Yo... are you sure that you didn't just take some of my ideas, and re-wrote them as your own? Lel

 

 

It's cool if you did though, I'm glad to see more people who want a similar concept. Having accelerant as a toggle/aura/passive that can keep reapplying the effect to new enemies which enter the range, would really help her out. 

Fireball sucks though, if it's just a straight damage buff. Fireball with ksit damage & aoe, would only tickle a lvl 80 Mob, so I'd say replace it altogether, with something new. Same with fireblast.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

6 hours ago, Terrornaut said:

I don't have the time or energy to touch this

But honestly if you're writing an Ember thread saying she can't do damage at level 100+ ... please stop.

There are so many ways to strip armor in seconds and also melt heavy armored units at level 120+ with her boosted total damage.

This Ember does no damage at high levels meme needs to die already. People need to stop building her with supreme ineffiency doing silly things like max efficiency and duration on a frame that doesn't need either.

The new change coming will make very little impact. Its a slight nerf due to overall energy efficiency - and I'm not talking about just the increasing energy drain.  Its there, yes, but Ember doesn't have energy problems. She will have to compensate for lack of survivability by recasting WoF every 8-10 sec to maintain a decent affecting range, get increased power, and possibly building for more range and less power than she should, but still with a focus on power.  If you aren't building for power and haven't tried it, please stop.

Ember is a CC and damage frame and in a party, is hard pressed to not stay on top for damage, especially if other frames like banshee or nova are present to severely boost her damage output.

I wanted to take a moment to show you my ember build, and call you out on your BS.

1) No, she doesn't really kill much past lvl 80. Not unless you're constantly spamming accelerant. (I'm not talking about infested... i'm talking about grineer, corpus, corrupted, sentients)

2) Yes, she actually does have severe energy drain issues... that's only with using her WoF, with a sprinkle of accelerant. Imagine if i'm constantly having to spam accelerant... 

    -Btw, that's just two of her skills. So if she's having energy issues with only two skills, imagine trying to use her entire kit.... 

3) Oh wait, you wouldn't use her entire kit. Because her Fireball, and her Fireblast are ineffective against mobs higher than lvl 40. I know, because i've tried. I made an accelerant build to try to use anything BUT my WoF, and enemies mostly lol'd at me. 

4) My energy issues are with me even adding primed continuity, and not using energy conversion... granted i'd have less issues if I switched my vigor (I usually have vitality instead) for equilibrium. But then, i'd be killed almost instantly by Toxic Eximus units.... I know because It happened a lot. 

5) When you're surrounded with a horde of enemies, trying to strip their armor one by one just sets you up to die. An offensive frame's defense, is to kill before it gets killed. That, or CC. 

You should just stop... Seriously tho, calm your attitude man. Maybe you have a build/playstyle/skillset that works better for you than it does for most other embers. If you do, it would be awesome if you shared it, so we can learn from you. However as it is, ember really does have a hard time killing higher lvl enemies. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Colyeses]

15 hours ago, Deathbricked said:

I get that your aiming at higher level stuff. But this "nerf" is for all the lower level stuff. If the DEvs (heh) put your suggestion in it would no longer be world on fire all the mobs away and just set up a macro for "1" and bring a trin... Everything is now dead but more inefficiently. 

Fireball would need to go x50 to stay relevant, not x5. Warframes have never had an end-game for damage output.

[traybong111]

WHY DO YOU NOT HAVE FLASH ACCELERANT REEEEEE 

I agree that 2x damage on WoF won't change much, WoF is nothing but a soft-CC for Ember at levels higher than 50. The real damage comes from (Flash) Accelerant, WoF only provides a breathing room to aim your ridiculously buffed weapons. And yes with high-power Flash Accelerant and the appropriate equipments Ember can deal with 100+ content. DE has to realize WoF is an important survival tool for a relatively squishy frame at high levels; I'd really rather DE either converted WoF into a Silence- or Pacify-esque CC aura if they really wanted to keep it a channeled ability or change it into a further self-buff that interacts with her weapon kills and buffs her ability damages or changes their behavior (like Fireball would spread fire proc to nearby enemies for a set duration, Fire Blast would create a backdraft/relative vacuum that knocked down & sucked in enemies, etc).

As much as I wish Ember had some armor strip or %health damage capacity, I've always used weapons like Lecta or Serro to strip armor (or proc radiation, or knockdown) in immediate vicinity. I also remember using 100% corrosive/rad/viral Tysis a lot back in T4S days. 

I'm not against WoF getting the nerf bat, hell most Ember mains back in 2015 knew WoF will be the cause of many lamentations and whines and it'll eventually get nerfed to the ground when DE said they'd make it a toggle ability (though I doubt people expected DE to take this long, I certainly didn't). I've mained Ember when she had 15 armor, 1.0 sprint speed, base 10s WoF that took 2.5s to cast and a bugged Accelerant that couldn't re-stun enemies and when fire proc didn't have the CC effect it has; nerfing WoF isn't going to change anything, and that's the saddest part. I'm not sad that WoF is getting nerfed, I'm sad that DE keeps failing to make a cohesive kit out of what should be the simplest frame. Seriously she's a fire frame, that's like RPG 101 sh!t. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by traybong111
grammar

[Maka.Bones]

29 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

WHY DO YOU NOT HAVE FLASH ACCELERANT REEEEEE 

Here you go bud

Btw, this build didn't really work out in the end. Maybe it could work with firequake... if I had enough efficiency to keep it running lol. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Fireball would need to go x50 to stay relevant, not x5. Warframes have never had an end-game for damage output.

Ash?