Juggernaut's Shotgun Darts: Too Lethal, and Here's Why

[Raspberry]

I've noticed through my testing of these infamous shotgun darts that the Juggernaut can insta-kill even the most immortal frames with, and I've discovered that their hit reg is far bigger than their visual models suggest, meaning that even if they visually miss on our screen (even when playing solo where there's zero lag), they will still "hit". There's a strong extension downwards, for example, so if the Juggernaut shoots straight and you take cover by going down some nearby stairs, you will still get hit. Also, these darts appear to have insane punch-through, once knocking me out through 2 walls. I like a strong enemy, but I'm not fond of being killed literally by game code. Because what we as players see and hear are our only means of communication with the game's coding, if there's any misalignment between what our senses receive and what the game code is running, it sabotages the fun and challenge. This issue extends to the infamous Synovia of Eidolons, too, which have badly misaligned hitboxes.

I've decided to post here instead of in the bugs section because sometimes, this feels too intentional to be considered a bug.

[KirukaChan]

The main thing I don't like about this attack is that even though it's easily the Juggernaut's most deadly attack, and the one it uses the most frequently, it has less telegraphing (specifically, almost no telegraphing at all) than its other attacks. I don't understand why it was designed this way.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, KirukaChan said:

The main thing I don't like about this attack is that even though it's easily the Juggernaut's most deadly attack, and the one it uses the most frequently, it has less telegraphing (specifically, almost no telegraphing at all) than its other attacks. I don't understand why it was designed this way.

The way I attempt to counteract this is strafing, though that does not always work. I seem to consistently dodge the first, but am subject to the third or fourth. Dang does it hurt, even on Inaros.

[Raspberry]

2 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

The main thing I don't like about this attack is that even though it's easily the Juggernaut's most deadly attack, and the one it uses the most frequently, it has less telegraphing (specifically, almost no telegraphing at all) than its other attacks. I don't understand why it was designed this way.

Maybe the enemy itself was just not designed to exist in high level missions. Juggernauts are a non-issue at level 30, for example, but if one appears in a Kuva Flood, even a 100 stack Nidus won't last very long.

[KirukaChan]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

The way I attempt to counteract this is strafing, though that does not always work. I seem to consistently dodge the first, but am subject to the third or fourth. Dang does it hurt, even on Inaros.

The only real counterplay I have to this attack, most of the time, is simply not aggroing the Juggernaut in the first place. Since I already have Atlas as well as a huge pile of Pherliac Pods, I have no real reason to fight them anymore. For this reason, I try to avoid doing pug missions against Infested (other than things like Defense or Survival that don't spawn Juggernauts) since the pugs always seem to want to fight them, even if they're not geared for it.

37 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

Maybe the enemy itself was just not designed to exist in high level missions. Juggernauts are a non-issue at level 30, for example, but if one appears in a Kuva Flood, even a 100 stack Nidus won't last very long.

I notice that's a trend among a lot of high level missions, particularly with boss-type enemies. If there's a Jackal fight in the Sortie, for example, I just don't bother with it, especially when the Sortie is probably just going to give me another stupid pineapple that I can't even fill due to my lack of Amber Stars.

[Koldraxon-732]

I recommend you consider frames like Harrow, Limbo, etc... who can disrupt, lock down, or similarly halt the Infested Juggernaut. Otherwise, use parkour mechanics to stay above it and on walls, since its' hit range is limited to a straight line and anything below itself.

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

2 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

The only real counterplay I have to this attack, most of the time, is simply not aggroing the Juggernaut in the first place. Since I already have Atlas as well as a huge pile of Pherliac Pods, I have no real reason to fight them anymore. For this reason, I try to avoid doing pug missions against Infested (other than things like Defense or Survival that don't spawn Juggernauts) since the pugs always seem to want to fight them, even if they're not geared for it.

My only issue is that my normal group always wants to fight them. Thankfully I can one-shot it provided it shows its weak underbelly and I have my Tigris prime.

[LuckyCharm]

I would be honestly fine with juggernauts having an op attack like that if the stupid things werent almost immortal on top of that. The reason that i never fight them if im given half a chance is that the weak spot appears much too infrequently given how devistating all of its attacks are. (I die more to its huge corrosive carpet attack than the spikes) and most of the tume he shows the weak spot just after unleashing some attack to force distance between you or force you to take cover

[KirukaChan]

2 hours ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

Otherwise, use parkour mechanics to stay above it and on walls, since its' hit range is limited to a straight line and anything below itself.

That I did not know. That's good info, thanks! I just hope that's a feature and not a "bug" that's going to get hotfixed out of the game.

[Combustionsquirrel]

If it got it's damage halved it would still be really powerful. I know I've been one-shot even at the mid 30's levels.

However the good thing about the attack is when he is launching the spikes a weak spot on his head opens up (if you get up close you can really see it), the problem is that unless he's shooting at someone else a few meters away from you, you don't have time to shoot at them before getting one-shot.

[Tyrian3k]

Well, if you want to see just how OP that attack is, just spawn one at max level in the simulacrum and let it shoot Octavia's ball. Watch as all spawned other infested die to damage ticks of 1,000,000+.

Okay, at more typical level it wouldn't be quite as ludicrous, but still bad enough to probably be able to oneshot even a pre-nerf Chroma with maximised EHP.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

Isn't this attack based on a similar one by Phorid? The one with homing capabilities AND punch through? I tend to stick close to Juggs so I get chatge attacks more than this. #AIabuse.

[RobWasHere]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Ubern00ber88 said:

Isn't this attack based on a similar one by Phorid? The one with homing capabilities AND punch through? I tend to stick close to Juggs so I get chatge attacks more than this. #AIabuse.

Phorid shoot its quills only when you are too far and are slower. Jugg shoots whenever he likes it. Jugg's problem is the fkin weakspot being only under it, why not having other one when it opens it's "brain" to shoot shotgun? Its slam attack revealing the spot are not often.

[Bipp]

1 minute ago, RobWasHere said:

Phorid shoot its quills only when you are too far and are slower. Jugg shoots whenever he likes it. Jugg's problem is the fkin weakspot being only under it, why not having other one when it opens it's "brain" to shoot shotgun? Its slam attack revealing the spot are not often.

There is a weakspot when he fires. It's just it's open for so short a time and under such dangerous circumstances that it's almost impossible to hit it unlike the poison cloud attack

[(PSN)HAVOCS-Regret]

17 hours ago, Raspberri said:

I've noticed through my testing of these infamous shotgun darts that the Juggernaut can insta-kill even the most immortal frames with, and I've discovered that their hit reg is far bigger than their visual models suggest, meaning that even if they visually miss on our screen (even when playing solo where there's zero lag), they will still "hit". There's a strong extension downwards, for example, so if the Juggernaut shoots straight and you take cover by going down some nearby stairs, you will still get hit. Also, these darts appear to have insane punch-through, once knocking me out through 2 walls. I like a strong enemy, but I'm not fond of being killed literally by game code. Because what we as players see and hear are our only means of communication with the game's coding, if there's any misalignment between what our senses receive and what the game code is running, it sabotages the fun and challenge. This issue extends to the infamous Synovia of Eidolons, too, which have badly misaligned hitboxes.

I've decided to post here instead of in the bugs section because sometimes, this feels too intentional to be considered a bug.

Agree, I don't think anything should be able to one shot us, it should take two shots minimum.  Bring on shield gating

[Cyalpha08]

Or Earthbound's GUTS mechanic. You will survive with one HP. Taking another hit is death. There would obviously be a timer on it so you cant cheese it by healing 1 HP, and getting dropped to 1HP again. but anything to sustain your meager existence for a moment enough to get away

[Andele3025]

17 hours ago, RobWasHere said:

Phorid shoot its quills only when you are too far and are slower. Jugg shoots whenever he likes it. Jugg's problem is the fkin weakspot being only under it, why not having other one when it opens it's "brain" to shoot shotgun? Its slam attack revealing the spot are not often.

Its upper "brain" segment is actually a weakspot, its just that the game refuses to acknowledge you shooting it unless you are airborn or some 30+m above it.

What is BS is that base cc doesnt reset him to basic attacks for a second or so and that ragdoll and finisher opening moves dont push the jugger on his back legs to hit his belly.
AT LEAST let melee slam attacks knock him up on his legs for 2-3 seconds.

[Pyradus]

Ok I recently timed this. There must something wrong with this enemy's AI. Standing in front of him, using Volt Shield to block his quills, the Juggernaut sat there for literally THREE MINUTES doing nothing but the quill attack, not exposing his weakpoint even once. Only after THREE MINUTES of continuously spamming this one attack did he finally rear up on his legs to get oneshotted. He must have used it one hundred times in a row. Do you not think this is excessive even in the slightest?

Edited February 23, 2018 by CapnToaster

[ganjou234]

1 hour ago, CapnToaster said:

Ok I recently timed this. There must something wrong with this enemy's AI. Standing in front of him, using Volt Shield to block his quills, the Juggernaut sat there for literally THREE MINUTES doing nothing but the quill attack, not exposing his weakpoint even once. Only after THREE MINUTES of continuously spamming this one attack did he finally rear up on his legs to get oneshotted. He must have used it one hundred times in a row. Do you not think this is excessive even in the slightest?

I would like to see a video of this. I find it hilarious.

It's like a frantic Juggy! xD

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2018. 02. 19. at 3:14 PM, Koldraxon-732 said:

I recommend you consider frames like Harrow, Limbo, etc... who can disrupt, lock down, or similarly halt the Infested Juggernaut. Otherwise, use parkour mechanics to stay above it and on walls, since its' hit range is limited to a straight line and anything below itself.

Juggernaut is capatable of dealing interdimensional attacks regardless of the riftplane it was confirmed that he has atleast 1 attack what can kill limbo inside the rift when stasis is active.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Seen Hysteria's damage counter jump 5 digits from just a lvl50 jug's shotgun, so yea, it can get pretty insane beyond starchart conditions.

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

When an infested Bull is more terrifying than an edgy retribution-driven psychopath with a massive sword and has a sentient god by his side.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2/19/2018 at 7:07 AM, Raspberri said:

Maybe the enemy itself was just not designed to exist in high level missions. Juggernauts are a non-issue at level 30, for example, but if one appears in a Kuva Flood, even a 100 stack Nidus won't last very long.

I Sonar stack Juggernaut and then Operator hide until Belly is shown...then 1shot regardless of Juggernaut level.

Simulacrum lvl 500+ Juggernaut Behemoth is the same.

If I mess up...he 1shots me...fair trade.

 

Seriously though 5 Sonar stacks at base 100% Powerstrength is 5*5*5*5*5= 5^5th or 3125x multiplier 

Overlapping Sonars with X being Multiplier strength and N equalling number or overlaps is expressed as X^N

Ludacris Armor Scaling can still negate a large amount of that absurd damage - but AkBronco Primes with MultiShot Riven and 100% Status allow the Sonic Fracture immune Juggernaut to be breezed through.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

49 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Mythical Warden said:

When an infested Bull is more terrifying than an edgy retribution-driven psychopath with a massive sword and has a sentient god by his side.

That Sentient Battalyst Laser attack can be an welcomed surprised when turning the corner.

Not as bad the old 360° No Scope Nullifier 1-shots (Near Rage-worthy moments)

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

That Sentient Battalyst Laser attack can be an welcomed surprised when turning the corner.

Stalker can be shredded if you got a warframe with a CC ability. As an example, Harrow. I've used his first ability many times to hold him in position and annihalated with a Tigris Prime. It's pretty easy.