Someone needs to give this guy EXACTLY what he wants

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I see a Corpus Killer.  Bypass shields, eat Nullies, mapwipe the crewmen.

Isnt Scoliac Toxin? 

Even if it’s Viral, 50% health reduction.

Just don’t take it on Infested runs.

Yup, that range is pretty sweet. Just don't take it on infested runs or simply unequip the riven.

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

That is not at all how riven rolling works.  3 things will never change when rerolling a riven: the polarity, the mastery rank requirement, and the weapon.  Everything else is fair game, including how many buffs and whether or not you have a curse.

Good to know as I never noticed that changing personally.

Which still leaves the roller in the same spot in this case though.

...So what did each of the 256 rolls look like exactly in that case?

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

In other words, that is exactly and literally what I described. Holding out through hundreds and hundreds of rolls because you’ve decided ahead of time on an exact combination of stats which you want, which you’re not guaranteed to get, and when in the meantime, you are almost guaranteed to get a combination of stats which you can use and which will complete the weapon’s build.

Thing is that I wouldn't be surprised that they may not have got xyz stat.

I bought a Skana riven, unrolled. Think it had damage but unsurprisingly it was still lacking. I can't remember the exact number of times but I'm fairly sure it was over 20,  maybe 30 even, times that I'd rolled it. Out of those rolls only once did I come across another damage stat, which the thing really needs. Nor did I come across crit modifiers I'd stick with either for some reason or another. Don't think it's a suitable crit weapon either.

[DaftMeat]

3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Mate, I refuse to believe that in 256 rolls, that player didn’t get one useful stat combo. I have never rolled a Riven more than a dozen times without getting at least a useful combination which would round out and improve the weapon’s build, be it Status, Crit, Damage, Speed, or supplementary stats.

 

It is far more likely that this guy was doing it to himself by holding out for a pre-set ideal ‘god roll’.

Even if that were true, out of the 200+ rolls, he still might not have gotten anything with better stats than those listed. Even if you plan on rerolling for god stats, you could still pick something better than these original stats for use until you reach your ultimate goal.

It is entirely possible that every roll from the first one onward had -Damage or -Range or another Riven-ruining stat. It may not be probable but it doesn't mean it's not possible.

[Jarriaga]

Cross-linking similar thread for visibility:

Rivens need a stat-lock or something that can help you get the riven you want and have a clear progress path.

[catastrophy]

Reeks of fake news.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Cross-linking similar thread for visibility:

Rivens need a stat-lock or something that can help you get the riven you want and have a clear progress path.

Kind of a cool concept.  But then everyone would have Gawd-Roll weapons...and therefore no one would.

[SeaUrchins]

250+ rolls, he's found himself his endgame it seems.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Kind of a cool concept.  But then everyone would have Gawd-Roll weapons...and therefore no one would.

I don't see a problem with that, particularly so if you can't trade stat-locked rivens, and you need to work your way to the stats you want. Why can't "everyone" have a god riven if they worked for it?

Also, by making stat-locked rivens untradable, riven dealers can still sell rivens but can't sell god rivens unless they got them on a random roll, meaning, you have earned your god riven, not bought it. Dealers can roll 4151561561 if they want and sell them, as long as they don't lock stats.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Jarriaga

[BornWithTeeth]

Lads, I gotta say again, a great big honking chunk of the problem here is self-inflicted. This problem goes away when you relax, chill out, get it in perspective and unclench about getting a ‘perfect’ Riven. 

 

I am super ultra not kidding that if you have a complete waste of space garbage trash Riven that you just can’t get to work, give it to me for a week and I’ll show you a build in which it works, with a few thousand kuva and a couple of Forma.

[-Temp0-]

4 часа назад, TheDefenestrater сказал:

Same here.  My problem is that I can never find the rivens I want to buy.  I search for months and never see anything close to the rivens I actually want for my builds.

The only advice I can give is to look up on riven.market and warframe trader if you hadn't already. Trade chat won't help with that, yeah.

Цитата

In other words, that is exactly and literally what I described. Holding out through hundreds and hundreds of rolls

In other words you can't read nor you can count. 50 rolls for one riven isn't "hundreds". After about 50th I give up and just buy the demn thing if I want to soothe my curiosity on how it will perform, so far I did it exactly once. And this is by far a better decision in every possible way. Rolling rivens and selling is for no-lifers that desparately need plat, not for those who want to get a riven with nice stats, it's a trap.

Edited April 3, 2018 by -Temp0-

[Vanille]

2 hours ago, --Q--Daddy said:

You are much more lucky than I am! 

[(PSN)KnowLedge]

2 hours ago, --Q--Daddy said:

You are much more lucky than I am! 

Even this game is not that good! JEEBUS!

 

Now I've only gone as deep as 32 rolls. However I have to be honest. With all the rolling I've done on multiple rivens. You can tell within the first 10-15 rolls easy that it will just always be trash. Then there are ones that are sick within the first few rolls. It's probably crazy talk, but it definitely is that way.

Edited April 3, 2018 by (PS4)KnowLedge

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Slippery Slope argument.

 Warframe is a fun and engaging game built entirely around repetition, chance, and acquisition through a time invested vs money spent business model.

Let’s shut the Relic System down, then.

Wait, not good enough.

Let’s just shut WARFRAME down.

Except for secret Floppy Zephyr.

Loot boxes are predatory.  Riven Rolls are a timesink choice.

Not really a slipper slope argument at all though but rather a fallacious application of logic in your post creating false equivalences and false divisions....with all due respect. 

The fact that Warframe is a game build around chance has very little to do with the argument I made. The argument isn't against chance...it is how that chance is composed within the system itself. Nor does the fact translate into every single composition of chance in the game being an objectively good addition or even the objectively the same. This is a fallacy...2 actually. Because it is well applied in one system,...it doesn't mean that it isn't awfully applied in another. The Riven System is not interchangeable with the relic system. 
 . 
Every system in the game is based on fixed chances...and while some of the chances are indeed ridiculously small.....none of these even come close to how infinitesimal small the chances within the Riven System are as a function of how the Riven System is designed.

Loot boxes are not predatory in themselves. Loot boxes are predatory because they are inserted in moneyed economies. Which is certainly the case with the Kuva system... though arguably to a lesser degree...hence the use of the word "borderline". The Riven System however is very much intentionally designed along the same purpose of the loot boxes and of course by its very design create the "god roll" end game escalation.  

 

2 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Except without seeing all the previous rolls, plus with the bug with linking riven rolled over 255 times, we have zero context to this to go off of. This person very well could be doing this as a joke, just like the people that forma a weapon or frame 100 times. They could also be going for an absurdly perfect roll and don't care about how many rolls it takes. This image has absolutely no context to it.

The previous rolls are largely irrelevant for the core of the argument. And while it is certainly the case that a person could very well be doing this on purpose...the calculation of chance here certainly allows for the fact that that isn't the case. 

What isn't irrelevant is the fact that an absurdly large amount of rolls are possible, and to a lesser extend sometimes necessary, to create the perfect roll. This differs considerably from people forma-ing warframes for the hell of it. To get the best composition of polarities this isn't at all required and naturally the endeavor to get the perfect polarity composition is maxed at 10 and the commodity necessary remains the same through out. The Riven end game has no such max....and it is very likely to exceed the amount of necessary polarities to even become halfway decent. 

The problem here is exactly the fact that the Riven System allows for a perfect roll to begin with. As a result that will become the goal. Especially considering that in the majority of the cases an objectively decent roll on the riven still makes the riven objectively bad for its designed purpose. An overhaul is necessary.  



 

Edited April 3, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[(PSN)Silverback73]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Not really a slipper slope argument at all though but rather a fallacious application of logic in your post creating false equivalences and false divisions....with all due respect. 

The fact that Warframe is a game build around chance has very little to do with the argument I made. The argument isn't against chance...it is how that chance is composed within the system itself. Nor does the fact translate into every single composition of chance in the game being an objectively good addition or even the objectively the same. This is a fallacy...2 actually. Because it is well applied in one system,...it doesn't mean that it isn't awfully applied in another. The Riven System is not interchangeable with the relic system. 
 . 
Every system in the game is based on fixed chances...and while some of the chances are indeed ridiculously small.....none of these even come close to how infinitesimal small the chances within the Riven System are as a function of how the Riven System is designed.

Loot boxes are not predatory in themselves. Loot boxes are predatory because they are inserted in moneyed economies. Which is certainly the case with the Kuva system... though arguably to a lesser degree...hence the use of the word "borderline". The Riven System however is very much intentionally designed along the same purpose of the loot boxes and of course by its very design create the "god roll" end game escalation.  

 

The previous rolls are largely irrelevant for the core of the argument. And while it is certainly the case that a person could very well be doing this on purpose...the calculation of chance here certainly allows for the fact that that isn't the case. 

What isn't irrelevant is the fact that an absurdly large amount of rolls are possible, and to a lesser extend sometimes necessary, to create the perfect roll. This differs considerably from people forma-ing warframes for the hell of it. To get the best composition of polarities this isn't at all required and naturally the endeavor to get the perfect polarity composition is maxed at 10 and the commodity necessary remains the same through out. The Riven end game has no such max....and it is very likely to exceed the amount of necessary polarities to even become halfway decent. 

The problem here is exactly the fact that the Riven System allows for a perfect roll to begin with. As a result that will become the goal. Especially considering that in the majority of the cases an objectively decent roll on the riven still makes the riven objectively bad for its designed purpose. An overhaul is necessary.  



 

 

It is exactly the absurdity of a slippery slope argument that I presented, because ultimately the argument boils down to Rivens being so powerful that it has stripped you of choice and free will like someone gambling with a gambling addiction.

BornWithTeeth is so right on this.

Acknowledge the hyperbole and own your choices.

If you can’t control the need to get the perfect roll and are saying the game is to blame, you are in denial.  It speaks to a bigger problem.

If you want it changed, present how.  But if you are going to relate it to a gambling addiction, be prepared to be called on it.

 

[kgabor]

2 hours ago, Valiant said:

Don't think it's a suitable crit weapon either.

It is with some combo and Blood Rush, still onehits Ancients with stacked auras in longer ODD runs lvl. 100+, Weeping Wounds also makes it status viable for Slash procs so it's usable even against Grineer.

My Skana riven has crit chance and range as stats which contributes basically nothing to its damage because crit chance scaling on combo>a small crit increase the riven gives.

The only drawback, you're forced to use Naramon to make combos work, that node should have been a waybound from the get go.

[Valiant]

1 minute ago, kgabor said:

It is with some combo and Blood Rush, still onehits Ancients with stacked auras in longer ODD runs lvl. 100+, Weeping Wounds also makes it status viable for Slash procs so it's usable even against Grineer.

My Skana riven has crit chance and range as stats which contributes basically nothing to its damage because crit chance scaling on combo>a small crit increase the riven gives.

The only drawback, you're forced to use Naramon to make combos work, that node should have been a waybound from the get go.

I'll have to give another look but I remember the damage/crits being petty. I love my Skana prime and the augment but it has it's hard limitations even with a riven.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

 

It is exactly the absurdity of a slippery slope argument that I presented, because ultimately the argument boils down to Rivens being so powerful that it has stripped you of choice and free will like someone gambling with a gambling addiction.

BornWithTeeth is so right on this.

Acknowledge the hyperbole and own your choices.

If you can’t control the need to get the perfect roll and are saying the game is to blame, you are in denial.  It speaks to a bigger problem.

If you want it changed, present how.  But if you are going to relate it to a gambling addiction, be prepared to be called on it.

 

I really don't want to be rude...but you seem to not fully understand the definition of a slippery slope argument. This probably also explains why your argument that it is was is based entirely on fallacies of equivalent and fallacies of division and formed in itself a rather large straw man argument.  

That is aside from the fact that Rivens were designed in lieu of a real end game with the specific intent of making substandard weapons more viable. So the core design of Rivens IS pushing the meta. This has very little to do with "choice"....because choice is irrelevant for the design of the mechanic itself.

It is just an incredibly lazy excuse for that bad design. 

So what is really happening here is the fact that you mistake agency for quality of the mechanic. The fact that I do not HAVE to use a mechanic or don't have to use the mechanic in a certain way does not mean the mechanic isn't designed as such. That is the real fallacy here. 



 

Edited April 3, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Ventura_Highway]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Lads, I gotta say again, a great big honking chunk of the problem here is self-inflicted. This problem goes away when you relax, chill out, get it in perspective and unclench about getting a ‘perfect’ Riven. 

I made an Opticor riven for when PoE came out and I kept rerolling it and couldn't get that Multishot/Crit/Crit roll because, you know, the odds of that happening are statistically unlikely.

But you know what? It turns out that a lot of damage and a lot of crit chance still allow my Opticor to turn the plains into a no-flying zone for the Grineer, and the damage reduction against Corpus doesn't matter because they're Corpus.

Someone's discipline or lack thereof, I wouldn't register that as DE's problem.

[(PSN)Eluminary]

The stat lock thing would be great, they should change out the riven transmute with stat lockers or maybe have one of each instead of the 2 transmute you get now... Though I doubt this will happen, it would make those near perfect rivens more common, so common they would likely get nerfed.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

I really don't want to be rude...but you seem to not fully understand the definition of a slippery slope argument. This probably also explains why your argument that it is was is based entirely on fallacies of equivalent and fallacies of division and formed in itself a rather large straw man argument.  

That is aside from the fact that Rivens were designed in lieu of a real end game with the specific intent of making substandard weapons more viable. So the core design of Rivens IS pushing the meta. This has very little to do with "choice"....because choice is irrelevant for the design of the mechanic itself.

It is just an incredibly lazy excuse for that bad design. 

So what is really happening here is the fact that you mistake agency for quality of the mechanic. The fact that I do not HAVE to use a mechanic or don't have to use the mechanic in a certain way does not mean the mechanic isn't designed as such. That is the real fallacy here. 



 

I know what slippery slope is.  There is an implied disastrous (and absurd) conclusion that is pervasive in this thread:

When you marry consequence of mechanic (we can go with your wording) to gambling addiction and then you reinforce with the implication that DE has included the irresistible (to addicts) “PERFECT ROLL” (your words to bolster an argument using subjective absolutes).

The slippery slope argument was implied (and not by me).

I think you were confusing my equally absurd solution should I actually agree with an absurd premise presented as fact.

Remove ALL temptation involving RnG if the game (and Rivens) is on it’s way to turning us all into Addicts and destroying our quality of life (Gaming or otherwise).

Counterpoint:  “Yeah, I can get a great Riven in about a dozen rolls.”

“Agency”?  Again, responsibility and ownership of choice is the part of the  equation no one wants to acknowledge.

You are eloquent, but tipped your hand with the “God Roll” and “push the Meta” comment.

Rivens are not a necessity to complete Warframe’s content, so if the numbers dictate, through your perception, that they are, that’s a choice you made.  I get it.  That’s Warframe for you.  Acknowledged.

Using imperfect references to rigid constructs, though?

fallacies of division

fallacies of equivalence

strawman argument...

They are ways of compartmentalizing and limiting listening at the expense of discussion.

The theme that arose was basically saying people can't help themselves when it comes to Rivens; a carrot on a stick so delicious and rare that it is destroying the experience because they have to forever give chase at the expense of all else.

“Help us DE because we can’t help ourselves! If you don’t, it’s your fault.”

Thanks.  

 

 

 

 

[6Sanity9x]

8 hours ago, TheDefenestrater said:

I saw this on reddit today.  

 

The fact that this riven's been rolled over 256 times and it's still garbage just proves how terrible the riven system is.  Someone needs to give this guy a scoliac riven with whatever stats he freakin wants on it, because he deserves it after farming that much freakin kuva.  You've created a slot machine, and someone's pulled the lever well over 200 times.

i guess RNG hates him

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by 6Sanity9x

[Eggzodiya]

256 rolls is pretty insane, and yet I constantly see many rivens, both in game and on the forums, that reach an incredible set of stats after only a dozen rolls or less. I don't know how these people have this kind of luck because I have 8/18 rivens that have 60+ rerolls and they still suck. I've never had much luck with the rerolls, so I just buy the rivens that I find have the stats I need for the weapon I'm using.

That aside, RNG is the enemy of every gamer who doesn't have good luck or the money to spend.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

6 minutes ago, Eggzodiya said:

256 rolls is pretty insane, and yet I constantly see many rivens, both in game and on the forums, that reach an incredible set of stats after only a dozen rolls or less. I don't know how these people have this kind of luck because I have 8/18 rivens that have 60+ rerolls and they still suck. I've never had much luck with the rerolls, so I just buy the rivens that I find have the stats I need for the weapon I'm using.

That aside, RNG is the enemy of every gamer who doesn't have good luck or the money to spend.

I once saw a Riven for my favorite weapon with an ideal roll.  Asking price was 250.

I balked.  I regret it to this day because I can’t find the seller.  It did teach me the value (and ease) of selling off nice Rivens for the plat needed, though.

A hard lesson learned.

Edited April 3, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[seprent]

5 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Lads, I gotta say again, a great big honking chunk of the problem here is self-inflicted. This problem goes away when you relax, chill out, get it in perspective and unclench about getting a ‘perfect’ Riven. 

 

I am super ultra not kidding that if you have a complete waste of space garbage trash Riven that you just can’t get to work, give it to me for a week and I’ll show you a build in which it works, with a few thousand kuva and a couple of Forma.

mostly saying this for a joke but i got a zhuge riven that is trying to remember off the top of my head +58% max ammo +55% ammo in clip +101% multishot and -142% damage if you can give a guide to make that work besides as pseudo crusaders crossbow for my allies/enemies getting rad proced id be welcome to hear it