Is Onslaught and Khora Blueprints Acquisition DE's worst move yet?

[Reifnir]

Statistics aside, Khora grind has surely achieved one thing: A burning desire to get it over with, build the damned frame and never, ever, under any circumstances come back to this game mode. 

Just to illustrate, I'm currently sitting at 49 normal-mode Onslaught zone-8 runs starting from last Friday.

My khora part inventory looks like this:

 

Yup, no BP in 16.3 hours of boring grind that currently produces ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I need. Would've been 6x systems and several extra copies of chassis and neuroptics, but  host migrations, bugs and crashes during the week ate that. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Reifnir

[Jyzzok]

il y a 4 minutes, Reifnir a dit :

Statistics aside, Khora grind has surely achieved one thing: A burning desire to get it over with, build the damned frame and never, ever, under any circumstances come back to this game mode. 

Just to illustrate, I'm currently sitting at 49 normal-mode Onslaught runs starting from last Friday.

My khora part inventory looks like this:

 

Yup, no BP in 16.3 hours of boring grind that currently produces ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I need. Would've been 6x systems and several extra copies of chassis and neuroptics, but  host migrations, bugs and crashes during the week ate that. 

I feel your pain .. I was actually about to buy her with some plats, decided to go on for a few more runs and finally got that bp which was the only thing that I was missing;
Try up to 60 and then if you don't get anything just give up .. they've just made it too hard ..

[Buff00n]

45 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Basically: statistically speaking, for every person that takes more runs than the average, there'll also be a person who takes the same amount fewer runs than the average.

13 minutes ago, rune_me said:

And of course some will go above that and roughly the same amount of people will go below that.

Only if the number of runs is normally distributed, which it isn't.  The distribution of runs necessary to get one or more rewards from a drop table is asymmetric; it's a type of gamma distribution.  It logically can't go lower than the number of rewards there are, but the sky's the limit in the other direction.  Loosely speaking, it takes *more* players below the average to balance out the potentially unbounded results lurking above the average.  

That's kind of splitting hairs, though.  You are basically correct.  The average is the average because numbers above it are balanced out by numbers below it.

However, if all you know is the average then all you can say is whether some number is above or below it.  It doesn't offer any meaningful information about how likely you are to be close to the average, or how "far" above or below the average a number is.  You don't know the *distribution* without both the average and some idea of the variance or deviation.  The 90% confidence line gives this to you for the upper end of the distribution in an easy to understand form.
 

1 hour ago, rune_me said:

Which is why I still feel only really the average number of runs matters. Which is 9 hours. Which is still a long time, but acceptable.

Anyway, I think this is all missing the point of my original post, which was to show how that time commitment is actually out of whack compared to all other "normal" frames, even in the "average" case.

[x-WhiteDevil-x]

The only part i need of her is the neuroptics which simply refuses to drop for me. And considering it drops only in rotation B, I wonder how long I need to grind for it cause it's getting too annoying at this point.

Apart from her parts if there were any other rewards which were enticing i would happily continue doing regular onslaught. Regular relics shouldn't even be a part of an activity which is supposed to be "end-game". They are spread out all across the star-chart. No reason to have another activity for them.

How about adding arcanes to the reward table cause at the moment there is only 1 activity which gives you arcanes. Otherwise, once everyone acquires the parts no one will touch the mode. Will be similar to Gara as I believe a majority of people won't do bounties 1-3 anymore.

[Toran]

Am ‎28‎.‎04‎.‎2018 um 16:24 schrieb Saratheia:

This is exactly the point I was hinting at. While I'm certain that isn't the case since DE is completely against pressuring their player base into buying anything, this is how it feels and how it comes across overall. At least in my eyes.

For something "arcardy" it's pretty grindy. As I'm done with Focus, there's little else to get in Onslaught, so I decided to just buy the stuff, Khora, Braton, Lato. I had one lucky Braton part I was able to trade for a missing Lato part to cut costs.

What I absolutely hate about the drops beside their ridiculous drop rates (being special is just a bad excuse, really) is that you have to farm them exclusively from the Onslaught missions.

My general advice:
If you're in the lucky position to generate Platinum from Arcanes, Rivens, Prime Parts or leveled Mods, do yourself a favour and buy what you're missing, once you're fed up.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Toran

[george200098]

well i got all her parts in 1 elite run and 1 normal run 

[Deimorne]

8 hours ago, rune_me said:

But again, you are judging the entire experience based on your own bad luck, that's not fair. 

Imagine someone who gets all the part in a two runs and then declares that Khora is the easiest frame to get ever. You are basically doing the same, just in reverse.

The fact is that roughly 30 runs is the average. And of course some will go above that and roughly the same amount of people will go below that. And that still evens out to roughly 30 runs, because that's how chance works: Almost no one will get the most likely outcome, but the average of everyone trying will be very close to the most likely (and continue to move closer and closer to it, the more people who try it).

But this still shows that this is a very imbalanced idea in that case. If this situation divides the player base onto two sides by making some like myself, extremely unlucky, others extremely lucky and then there's the middle ground who had to grind for only a few hours to get all they needed, this is something that isn't really working. As far as game developers are concerned, especially ones like DE, I'm pretty sure there's a thing they say along the lines of "If a large number of players are unhappy, then it needs to be at least looked at."

 

For me, just going through a few of the comments on here and other threads shows a lot of people are having a bad time trying to farm Khora.

[rune_me]

33 minutes ago, Saratheia said:

But this still shows that this is a very imbalanced idea in that case. If this situation divides the player base onto two sides by making some like myself, extremely unlucky, others extremely lucky and then there's the middle ground who had to grind for only a few hours to get all they needed, this is something that isn't really working. As far as game developers are concerned, especially ones like DE, I'm pretty sure there's a thing they say along the lines of "If a large number of players are unhappy, then it needs to be at least looked at."

But that was true for all the other frames as well. You just never got unlucky with those, so you didn't experience the divide. I took well over 80 defection runs to get Harrow. It was by far the worst grind in the game for me. Getting Khora was a walk in the park by comparison. Yet others got Harrow in a couple of runs and were done with it.

I don't think that is something that isn't working. That is just how a looter based on random drops works, and it is by design. If DE didn't do anything to address the divide in all the previous cases, why should they do it now?

[Sabreracer]

2 hours ago, Saratheia said:

But this still shows that this is a very imbalanced idea in that case. If this situation divides the player base onto two sides by making some like myself, extremely unlucky, others extremely lucky and then there's the middle ground who had to grind for only a few hours to get all they needed, this is something that isn't really working. As far as game developers are concerned, especially ones like DE, I'm pretty sure there's a thing they say along the lines of "If a large number of players are unhappy, then it needs to be at least looked at."

 

For me, just going through a few of the comments on here and other threads shows a lot of people are having a bad time trying to farm Khora.

Actually I would say that if the community opinion is split down the middle then it's balanced.  If far more say it's too hard or too easy then it's unbalanced.

The gamemode is designed to be played over and over with a focus on Focus gains for the majority of players that can't or won't do Adaro stealth murder runs (before the inevitable nerf comes).

Looking at that way, ONCE you have her parts it's a waste of a drop (15k Cr) that could be something useful.

Edit:

DE listen when the community rise up as a whole to say how bad something is.  Almost all feedback on Khora herself was bad so they step in and make changes, if the player base is divided then it's not an urgent issue and maybe addressed over a longer term rather than a knee jerk reaction.  Taking Khora part out of Elite was a good move allowing you to place your focus on what you want first.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Sabreracer

[Reifnir]

Well, patience (or rather, stubbornness) came out victorious.

After 51 8-zone runs and Hek knows how many bugged/crashed ones I found all the blueprints. 

I must say, I hated the experience. Hopefully they will adjust Khora drop rates or at least take her BP out of rotation C and place it into Simaris' shop to purchase it with standing. 

[---UMBRA---]

I think yes, because new gamemode it is just a sirvival reskin ( nothing new, no scaling rewards - no motivation to play this gamemode after beating rewards (lunaro 2.0))

I said that new gamemode useless after first time devs showed us. So my dissapointment was right.

Edited April 30, 2018 by ---UMBRA---

[BlueFalcon13]

3 minutes ago, ---UMBRA--- said:

I think yes, because new gamemode it is just a sirvival reskin ( nothing new, no scaling rewards - no motivation to play this gamemode after beating rewards (lunaro 2.0)

I disagree. I enjoy it for the fast paced focus gains (elite version that is... Regular is a cesspool of cheese and banshees...). I have always been bored to tears with the old spy focus farm.  Totally ok running a couple elite onslaughts a night to cap out focus.

[---UMBRA---]

7 часов назад, BlueFalcon13 сказал:

I disagree. I enjoy it for the fast paced focus gains (elite version that is... Regular is a cesspool of cheese and banshees...). I have always been bored to tears with the old spy focus farm.  Totally ok running a couple elite onslaughts a night to cap out focus.

 

What you offer to do for me and most veterans who maxed out focus?

[WhiteCr0w]

On 4/28/2018 at 10:11 AM, Saratheia said:

For a whole week I've been doing nothing but onslaught. And I've over looked the bugs and the problems, putting up with it in just a determined (yet vain) effort to obtain Khorra. Yet, after a week of several hours a day, which includes after I've been to work, so basically most of my free time, I've pushed myself through onslaught.

You're not going to like to hear it, but you're simply being impatient. Take a step back, and look at things as they are. You're playing a video game where new content can either be purchased immediately and experienced, or worked toward for an indiscriminate amount of time. Some people will receive it within a day, some within weeks. If this new content were overly easy to obtain, no one would buy it. As much as we may hate it, an incentive to purchase has to exist. You can crunch the numbers, come up with figures and probabilities (Ignoring what RNG actually is in the process), but the truth is that this is a necessary evil.

The only grievance here is your decision to spend so much time lumped together in pursuit of it.

[kyori]

Similar threads like this always pop up when a new frame arrives.

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

On 2018-04-29 at 9:21 AM, Buff00n said:

I did some math

Oh yeah...

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-04-28 at 12:24 PM, Saratheia said:

Overall, there are valid points on both sides of the fence. On one hand, those who have farmed Khora have found onslaught to be enjoyable and entertaining, those of us who haven't are seriously hating our experience with it.

 

The issue is, is that Warframe isn't meant to split its players like this. At least, that's what I've always thought DE have wanted, that their community of players are always on the same page with each other. But onslaught is obviously causing problems for some and not for others.

 

The facts are as it stands:

There are about an equal number of people supporting both sides of this argument. This indicates there is at least something wrong here.

The rewards truly aren't worth any time in onslaught for the long haul. Those of us who are late game players likely don't need a mass amount of relics. I certainly don't.

Onslaught is a true pain after the first eight or so runs. And Cephalon Simaris is starting to really depress me as he's just a negative and unpleasant character of the Warframe universe. Plus, hearing him say the same line for the 300th time in row isn't a delight in any possible way.

 

While I agreed with someone earlier that maybe onslaught deserves another chance after the recent hotfix, I've tried it the past couple of hours again and I've not seen one Khora component. I've decided that this really isn't worth pushing myself to go through something I hate just for it.

No, Warframe has never been about being something -everyone- likes equally.  It IS, however, a game meant to have something FOR everyone.  DIFFERENT tastes for DIFFERENT players and playstyles.  That's all.

If people are divided, that's perfectly fine.  Some people like Conclave still, and some don't.  Personally, I don't mind it, nor do I have issue with Archwing.  I quite like it. 

Also, do not state that you are going to recite "facts", then follow it up with opinions.

You have no solid evidence of number of supporters for either side (not that it would matter if you did).
Your OPINION on the rewards is only an opinion.  I, for one, WELCOME an "endless horde". 
 

If you haven't gotten the good side of RNG yet, keep trying.  Or don't.  That's your choice...but stop trying to convince us it should also be ours.  We can make our own choices, thanks.

[-ZeroStar-]

Not sure why DE keeps making these bad decisions.  Rivens, Eidolons, Operator combat, now Khora...  If this downward spiral keeps up, I'm going to have to put Warframe down forever, and I REALLY don't want to... But, it's almost as if they're forcing it...  I mean the math alone is just a joke, I cannot think of another blatant way of saying, spend plat on this frame.  Sorry DE, but if you keep this crap up, you're only going to lose your longtime players and whales.  There's no excuse for this but greed.  The game is already grindy enough, there's no reason to make it worse, much less to this extent...   PS, I'm one of the majority that will -NOT- spend plat for her just so we don't have to grind for her.  I will -NOT- reward your greed!!

I mean, I've heard that DE is trying to 'step away from the grindfest', yet this is the worst yet!
 

Chassis Blueprint (8.33%)	A	44	316±106
Neuroptics Blueprint (7.69%)	B	102	694±232
Systems Blueprint (5.64%)	C	136-144	952±320
Khora Blueprint (5.64%)	C	136-144	952±320

 

[ligonare]

I'm sick of this game mode, DE. Unrewarding, laborious, slot-machine GRIND! This is a week worth of grind with 3 hrs each session devoted to this grindfest.

With other gamemodes, i can see tangible progress. Not this one. It's a 20 min vicious cycle of prayer, mind-numbing wait for what you want vs all the crap that i do not need.

I will not touch this gamemode with a 10 foot bo until something gives. This ridiculous droptable or my thinning support for your player retention policies.

[kgabor]

Eh i got all Khora parts (several times), most Vandal parts and a bunch of rad relics in less than a week playing the mode.

I'm trading with prime parts and relics are all i expected to get from the mode, Khora and Vandals are just the side loot and they become pointless clutter once you got all because i'm sure their market price will hit the ominous 1 plat value or close to that once people farm it enough. (which they most likely will, it's the best mission for relics)

It's a niche game mode for veterans and betyárframe and the Vandal weapons are completely optional and honestly underwhelming so all you all are missing is mastery points here unless you just want to unlock them for completion's sake in which case you should be able to cope with the "grind".

[-Dantos-]

I don't mind it that much. I much prefer this over the situation that mesa had at release, waiting for key parts, not even keys, to become available from invasions just for a chance at one of her pieces, or Hydroid where you had to farm key pieces from rare spawn grineer (Hydroid still remains the only frame I've bought).

My biggest issue was the bugs causing lost rewards, which they seem to have largely fixed. I did lose out on a BP recently when it kicked me back to Simaris' waiting room after efficiency ran out and I had to abort to get out, costing me the BP, thankfully I got another the next run.

I'm sure its just me, but I prefer to just grind for a thing than to grind or wait for a chance to grind for a thing.

Edited May 3, 2018 by -Dantos-

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 hours ago, -ZeroStar- said:

Not sure why DE keeps making these bad decisions.  Rivens, Eidolons, Operator combat, now Khora...  If this downward spiral keeps up, I'm going to have to put Warframe down forever, and I REALLY don't want to... But, it's almost as if they're forcing it...  I mean the math alone is just a joke, I cannot think of another blatant way of saying, spend plat on this frame.  Sorry DE, but if you keep this crap up, you're only going to lose your longtime players and whales.  There's no excuse for this but greed.  The game is already grindy enough, there's no reason to make it worse, much less to this extent...   PS, I'm one of the majority that will -NOT- spend plat for her just so we don't have to grind for her.  I will -NOT- reward your greed!!

I mean, I've heard that DE is trying to 'step away from the grindfest', yet this is the worst yet!
 

Chassis Blueprint (8.33%)	A	44	316±106
Neuroptics Blueprint (7.69%)	B	102	694±232
Systems Blueprint (5.64%)	C	136-144	952±320
Khora Blueprint (5.64%)	C	136-144	952±320

 

Clearly, you're no "whale" if you're not spending on the frames/new content.  Also, there is no "greed" in a company that offers ALL of their content for FREE.  They DO need to push sales at some point, otherwise they and their 250+ employees have no way to feed their families.

That being said...play or don't play.  Really don't care, if that's how you're going to be about it.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-04-29 at 5:01 PM, MystMan said:

Do people actually take a break when they grind? Or alternate between game modes?
You're not supposed to spend hours upon hours non-stop grinding the same game mode trying to get loot the moment new content is released.  Khora is just over a week old and already people are unhappy that they haven't gotten her yet. If it was that easy, you'd end up with nothing to do for a long time till new content is released. Spread out the farming over days, not hours.  Have some self-control.

Maybe they should just make this feature universal and not just in Europe

 

I've done 20+ Onslaught runs, I'm not tired of it. I enjoy it even, no matter what drops. I'm still trying to get the 3 rares from Rot C of Elite Onslaught.

TAKE BREAKS!

TAKE BREEEEAAAAKKKS!

 

On 2018-04-29 at 5:17 PM, trst said:

No it's not their worst, in fact it's not even bad by any standards.

 

You can't compare Khora's drop rates to other frames as unlike almost every other frame Khora was put in a mode that you should want to play over and over. You wouldn't want to go and kill Ruk or Lephantis hundreds of times after already getting their drops but there is a reason to do so with Onslaught. Some frames are exceptions to this but none reach the level of "replayability" Onslaught has.

 

Also people thinking her rates are to encourage plat sales go ahead and take the tin-foil off, everything is meant to encourage plat sales. Warframe is a F2P and they need plat sales to keep the lights on. Everything in the game is either work to get it for free or pay for it. If everything took no effort to get then nobody would consider using spending plat on items.

 

On 2018-04-29 at 9:53 PM, rune_me said:

But again, you are judging the entire experience based on your own bad luck, that's not fair. 

Imagine someone who gets all the part in a two runs and then declares that Khora is the easiest frame to get ever. You are basically doing the same, just in reverse.

The fact is that roughly 30 runs is the average. And of course some will go above that and roughly the same amount of people will go below that. And that still evens out to roughly 30 runs, because that's how chance works: Almost no one will get the most likely outcome, but the average of everyone trying will be very close to the most likely (and continue to move closer and closer to it, the more people who try it).

ALL of these posts need more upvotes!  

You all break out your numbers but don't seem to understand probability.  I mean, let's talk literal here for a sec-- real-world-- You can say how you have a 50/50 chance of flipping a coin and it landing heads up.  HOWEVER, in PRACTICE, this can STILL result in 100 flips of ALL heads up!  Nothing is guaranteed.

DE has done nothing wrong here.  Stop expecting so much instant gratification. I read through all 4 pages, and the vast majority are just tantrum-throwing toddlers.

Honestly, there are a few poor assumptions being made here and in other posts as well..>
1. That there is any sort of "bulk of players speaking up" in this forum thread.  It's only 4 pages long. Not even 50 players have commented. Far less, in fact.  If even HALF of those said "waah i hate it" it still wouldn't count as much "feedback", considering Warframe has over 32 MILLION registered users.  10 players whining is hardly indicative of an actual issue.

2. You're assuming this mode EXISTS for Khora's sake, or that the REWARD of playing this mode is a TANGIBLE thing.  It isn't meant to be.  For forever now, "vets" and hardcore players have demended a fast-scaling, horde-type mode.  We now have it.  THAT is why it was created.  It was NOT meant to be "to get stuff".  All the drops are just bonus.  Khora was likely thrown in as an exclusive drop for the same reason Gara was put on the PoE....To bring ATTENTION to it.  That's literally all!

If you need to be given a cookie to motivate you to play, then you're missing the point.  Play for the FUN of playing!  If you're not there yet, then this mode isn't for you.

smfh, it's free for Lotus' sake.... 

[Buff00n]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You all break out your numbers but don't seem to understand probability.  I mean, let's talk literal here for a sec-- real-world-- You can say how you have a 50/50 chance of flipping a coin and it landing heads up.  HOWEVER, in PRACTICE, this can STILL result in 100 flips of ALL heads up!  Nothing is guaranteed.

With a coin flip you can say the expected average number of flips to get a heads is 2, with 90% confidence at 4 flips, and 99% confidence at 7 flips.  One in a hundred people flipping a coin will take seven or more flips to get a heads.  Expected values and percent confidence levels are real tools statisticians use to put meaningful numbers on something that technically has no guarantees.

 

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

smfh, it's free for Lotus' sake.... 

It's free only if your time has no value.  Players who don't like Onslaught but want Khora are looking at an expected average time commitment that's worse than players who don't like Spy but want Ivara.  Khora is the new gold standard grind for non-prime frames.

At this point I don't think anyone here is seriously expecting a change to the drop rates or some kind of trading-related release valve.  What I would appreciate is an admission that, yes, it's excessive and no, it won't happen again.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Buff00n said:

It's free only if your time has no value.

This makes no sense. What does it matter if I spend nine hours farming for Khora, or nine hours doing something else in the game? Nine hours spend playing Warframe is nine hours spend playing Warframe regardless of what you do in game. How would my time become more "valuable" if I ran defense missions or bounties instead?