Are Damage Aura's and High Range AoE BAD for Warframe?

[Buttaface]

Warframe is an easy grinding game for the masses of mediocre video gamers, not a skill game for players who want to learn or engage in tactical team play or compete. So is it any wonder it's full of lazy, overpowered one-button radial AOE skills? Problem with "hard" tactical games is they tend not to do well financially (see Global Agenda). In order for the game to require skill and be a tactical contender, tons of skills would have to be changed and nerfed way down. Wish they would, but they won't. Any tightening up would annoy the bads and likely chase away lots of their $$, so OP, probably stuck with the game as it is, bad OP AOE, poor play and all. In better tactical skill games, the progression formula is "gee, once I learn to aim, parkour and use the right thing at the right time, I'll be good too!" In WF, the formula, sadly, is "gee, once I grind out Mesa, I'll be good too!" HUGE difference.

But yeah, it is outright rude for players to bring map-clear AOE into many missions, rationalizations by those doing it as seen in the thread are feeble and transparent. Also, though it tends to do its job of padding kill count early on, after 10-15 waves or so, when more and more immune mobs start to show up, it starts to give out, usually with terrible consequences to mission speed. Not to mention making gathering loot completely obnoxious on many maps.

Just one of many examples, a sonar banshee is actually one of the strongest frames in the game, great for support, great for the team, players love to see it and hit high numbers... while a quake spam banshee is weak and sucks for several reasons I won't list here. So what does the mediocre, bad player base of WF generally play? Of course, the quake banshee. Same for all the other abused AOE skills, there is usually a team-supportive vs. selfish option. Bad players will choose selfish every time and WF is cram full of bad players. And it's not just spreading the loot. For example, I play a Desecrate Nekros lots. When the extra desecrated stuff is in one area, it's incredibly beneficial to the team in several ways. When it's spread out because max range Volt (or a dozen possibilities) is spamming their 4? Far less beneficial.

But the answer to OP's question is that the damage auras and high range AOE are very GOOD for Warframe financially, bad in terms of being a quality game.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Buttaface

[Tyreaus]

Okay so here's a stupid idea:

What if we got some kind of "Elite Mode" starchart available after Second Dream where enemy levels were 2.5x higher and we got 2x rewards, drops, resources, etc. from them? Then the high-level players could play the elite mode missions for things like Lith relics with twice the efficiency for maximum farmage without impacting the new playerbase.

The problem is that there's a trade-off somewhere, because then the new players won't get as much help from the vets. I only learned I could bullet jump upwards after my first foray into the Void missions because someone told me how. No matter how you toss it up, you're going to lose that to some degree. Maybe it's worth it, but that sort of communal teaching isn't insubstantial either. And there's probably other issues, like I said it's a stupid idea lol.

[Misgenesis]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Okay so here's a stupid idea:

What if we got some kind of "Elite Mode" starchart available after Second Dream where enemy levels were 2.5x higher and we got 2x rewards, drops, resources, etc. from them? Then the high-level players could play the elite mode missions for things like Lith relics with twice the efficiency for maximum farmage without impacting the new playerbase.

Theres no point in increased rewards when we have tools that are capable of outright disabling any and all challenge.

[Tyreaus]

1 minute ago, Misgenesis said:

Theres no point in increased rewards when we have tools that are capable of outright disabling any and all challenge.

Well the idea was to let the high-level AOE frames work toward getting rewards in the early sections of the starchart without disrupting the experiences of newer players like the OP was describing. The extra rewards and whatnot are just incentives to do the harder missions (higher level = more affinity was the main thought).

[Buttaface]

17 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

Theres no point in increased rewards when we have tools that are capable of outright disabling any and all challenge.

True, this is why a real tactical mode would have altered skills in a similar way that Conclave does. We won't be seeing it, because then skill differences would be very apparent, and that's bad for business. I enjoy playing an easy, mindless game like WF just fine, but it would be nice to see -true- skill tests in the game in addition for players who want that sometimes... without having to stay in preexisting missions for hours at a time or play reskin, lazy design game modes like Onslaught that are just as cheesed as any other, but odds are we won't.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Buttaface

[-_Highlander_-]

On 2018-05-04 at 2:11 AM, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

This game is based around speedrunning. Why do you think rescue targets teleport with the players? Why not instead of trying to destroy frames and playstyles you try to fix the issue of high-levels needing to come down to low level missions.

 no not realy

thats just another urban legend story

it doenst say anywhere that this game is based on speed running hehehe 

thats only for people that are in an hurry .. or are borred with this game

This game can be played in many ways .. and yes thats include beeing fast in some point but tactical is important aswell 

otherwise you end up with storys like whips 2 win

there isnt any championship bounded to how fast you do an mission

Its more how you do an mission and beeing rewarded 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

19 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Warframe is an easy grinding game for the masses of mediocre video gamers, not a skill game for players who want to learn or engage in tactical team play or compete.

Speak for yourself. I challenge myself in this game all the time, testing how far I can go, how high a level I can take myself. If you cannot find a a challenge in warframe, then I can't really blame you, since the actual challenge takes hours to get to in endless runs, but it's there. The problem is the level-time issue. It takes hours to get to the levels our builds are designed for, but they exist and should be brought into the game. Leaving the game at an easy state is NOT what's suppose to be happening and saying that the game is suppose to be like that is just wrong.

Cheese is cheese. This is different, but don't judge the entirety of the game by it's current cheese.

[Xaxma]

It's more of a problem with farming than the game. The higher mastery players with thousand or more hours into the game just want to roflstomp the repetitive stuff just to get the items or resources they want. 

Personally, as someone with 3200 hours into the game, I rarely use such cheese builds and I'm happy I don't. 

My most used frame is Ivara (Zephyr a close second) and my most used weapons by a large percentage according to my profile is the Daikyu, Ballistica Prime/Rakta, and Rakta Dark Dagger, and I often pull ahead in damage, kills or overall effectiveness regardless.

I'm your average player that sometimes gets lucky and gets nice things like that silly Atterax or Plague Kripath riven, which I have no interest in building, and sell said things to get pretty cosmetics and more preferable rivens en masse to ones I do use like bows and such.  

I'm happy with what I do! I don't care to min/max to such an extent. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Xaxma

[(PSN)Crixus044]

5 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

It's more of a problem with farming than the game. The higher mastery players with thousand or more hours into the game just want to roflstomp the repetitive stuff just to get the items or resources they want. 

Personally, as someone with 3200 hours into the game, I rarely use such cheese builds and I'm happy I don't. 

My most used frame is Ivara (Zephyr a close second) and my most used weapons by a large percentage according to my profile is the Daikyu, Ballistica Prime/Rakta, and Rakta Dark Dagger, and I often pull ahead in damage, kills or overall effectiveness regardless.

I'm your average player that sometimes gets lucky and gets nice things like that silly Atterax or Plague Kripath riven, which I have no interest in building, and sell said things to get pretty cosmetics and more preferable rivens en masse to ones I do use like bows and such.  

I'm happy with what I do!

@DatDarkOne I think I found your brother lol

[Xaxma]

Just now, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

@DatDarkOne I think I found your brother lol

He's in my clan :3

[DatDarkOne]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

@DatDarkOne I think I found your brother lol

That he happens to be a she.  Who is also my clan leader.  😁 

[Xaxma]

4 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

That he happens to be a she.  Who is also my clan leader.  😁 

Let's rename the clan to Cult of Daikyu. We stand against boring stupid large AoE cheese.

Break the mold! 

Play what you guys want! 

You might just end up doing even better than the inbred morons who fruitlessly chase this "meta" at every turn when you perfect your craft !

Edited May 9, 2018 by Xaxma

[--END--Rikutatis]

On 2018-05-03 at 7:05 PM, Astronomicon. said:

...

Some food for thought:

1) Not everyone thinks the same or approaches the game in the same way. When I was MR 3 and saw an MR 23 wiping the tileset with 90% damage dealt, I didn't get upset because I couldn't fire my gun. It was more a mix of appreciating the fact that guy had helped me breeze my way through a farming session (I knew there would be many more to come without him) together with a feeling of awe for his power and the motivation to keep grinding and leveling to one day be able to do that myself. 

Whenever I was doing quest/story missions, missions in which I didn't want to rush and wanted to enjoy the quest in my own pace, then I'd strictly solo them. 

2) You said this: "I WANT to participate. I want to be of use. I want to have ups and downs of success in missions due to group synergy and skill. I can't have any of those things playing Solo" --> to that I have to say that the best way to achieve those things is with a Clan. Not in public matches. Obviously you'll need to find a clan that is a good match for you and your interests, but that shouldn't be hard at all. A lot of issues I see in this game is of people who get upset about stuff that happens in public matches because they want others to fit his playstyle. Trust me, a clan is totally worth it, best way to experience the game IMO. Assuming you find the right one. 

3) Finally, perhaps a core issue behind all these complaints is that endgame fully decked nuke-the-tileset players probably shouldn't be matched with brand new low lvl players. Heck, they probably shouldn't be forced to farm low lvl missions to get the stuff they need to begin with, but that's a different topic. But at the very least better (more strict) match making could help alleviate that. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

That he happens to be a she.  Who is also my clan leader.  😁 

lol my bad @Xaxma

1 hour ago, Xaxma said:

Let's rename the clan to Cult of Daikyu. We stand against boring stupid large AoE cheese.

Break the mold! 

Play what you guys want! 

You might just end up doing even better than the inbred morons who fruitlessly chase this "meta" at every turn when you perfect your craft !

lol That's the spirit. If I was on your platform, I'd join ya. My job is to beat the meta with stuff people call underpowered, and I tend to succeed more times than not.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

On 2018-05-03 at 3:21 PM, Astronomicon. said:

Exactly the sort of response I expected. I want no penalisation. If they are OP with the mods and have spent thousands of hours, surely they have other gear and can use it in group without harming others experience. I gave my perspective, but I see it affects others even when I'm in game, so I slow my pace and wait for the others to pick things up. If they don't I keep the pace down. If I can do that after only a hundred hours, how is it insane to think someone better at the game / more experienced could do the same?

Fact is by solo queueing the MR23 loses nothing - they still ROFLSTOMP content and get what they were farming. But guess what - they aren't just making others sit and watch him or her play for ten minutes and those that joined a group to play as a group gain everything.

At worst that sort of behavior is anti-social at best it's rude AF.

You're still relatively new to the game and you just don't understand why people use nuker frames yet. You will understand soon enough tho. A lot of us have gone through what you're currently going through, but at some point you will probably become what you hate. I hate running builds that destroy the entire map, but of course I use them. Why? Because it speeds up the part of the game I don't enjoy so I can spend more time playing the content I do enjoy.

Resources will be a problem for you one day. Occasionally you will need to go back to nodes you haven't visited in a long time. You will realize that enemy spawns and resource drops are so much better in Public, and you will try to kill enemies as quickly as possible because fighting low level enemies is boring. 

It's not anti-social. It's just more efficient. You choose Solo when you want a challenge. You choose Public when you want to carry or be carried. I only go Public for resources and occasionally the handful of missions that actually require teamwork. Certain Sorties and bounties can be decent for Public play. 

 

[Buttaface]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Speak for yourself.

Warframe is an easy grindy game for the masses. That you -can- stay in one or two modes for more than an -hour- to get a bit of challenge doesn't change what the essence of the game is in the least. More skill-based parkour/shooter type games... make a misstep? Dead and wipe. Move a bit too far from the team? Dead and wipe. Don't do your part in the team? Dead and wipe. And that starts right out of the gate/newbie area or maps. You don't have to strain the game to get there. 

[Naqel]

Warframe has for a long time needed an overhaul to it's balance.

Honestly, it would have been much better if they'd gut most of the AoE's and auto-targeting stuff when they had the chance.

[(PSN)Croewe]

7 hours ago, -_Highlander_- said:

 no not realy

thats just another urban legend story

it doenst say anywhere that this game is based on speed running hehehe 

thats only for people that are in an hurry .. or are borred with this game

This game can be played in many ways .. and yes thats include beeing fast in some point but tactical is important aswell 

otherwise you end up with storys like whips 2 win

there isnt any championship bounded to how fast you do an mission

Its more how you do an mission and beeing rewarded 

Whether you do it or not, the majority of the community DOES speedrun. You do not see people standing around killing enemies in a capture mission. They go to the target and kill it then leave. The parkour system incentives this kind of play by everyone trying to one up eachother and show who's better at getting through missions. Not to mention the lack of incentive to actually kill them.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

thiiiis is why i like my Max duration Max range Gara build... give everyone spinning shards of death and maintain it indefinitely... give everyone the ability to deal 100k damage to everything they get within 5m of, and watch them just run around joyfully murdering things with Parkour.

[DatDarkOne]

6 hours ago, Xaxma said:

Let's rename the clan to Cult of Daikyu. We stand against boring stupid large AoE cheese.

 

Hmmmmmm.  I can work with that.  

[beercritch]

The real problem is the guys who can hold end game play still have to do runs that without wanting to be rude are beneath their setups. These people can simply just evaporate everything in the latest nitain alert and it doesnt mattter if they have a frame with a big AOE or an epic primary or melee. There is content they have to do for resources that is simply too easy for them.

 

The real solution as we had teased upon us at least once before (there was some time ago a very high level defence that payed something like 5 nitain) is to have very hard versions of missions that are only available to end game players that pay out ramped up rewards. There is then no reason for for high level players to destroy the fun of newer players

[(PSN)Crixus044]

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Warframe is an easy grindy game for the masses. That you -can- stay in one or two modes for more than an -hour- to get a bit of challenge doesn't change what the essence of the game is in the least. More skill-based parkour/shooter type games... make a misstep? Dead and wipe. Move a bit too far from the team? Dead and wipe. Don't do your part in the team? Dead and wipe. And that starts right out of the gate/newbie area or maps. You don't have to strain the game to get there. 

 This is a low mission level problem, not the basis of the game. The essence of the game is not really there due to a current problem we have with mission levels. In higher level missions, those skilled based challenges are here in the game. The problem is that those levels are not readily available. If they were and people had a reason to go there, the game would lose the farming simulator stigma it has. The whole "game is easy" is the reason why there are balance issues such as OP's.

I don't know if you remember Phoenix Intercept Escalation, but that mission right there was the closest we got to readily available challenges. Design Council challenges being the next.

Edited May 10, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(PSN)Crixus044]

29 minutes ago, beercritch said:

The real problem is the guys who can hold end game play still have to do runs that without wanting to be rude are beneath their setups. These people can simply just evaporate everything in the latest nitain alert and it doesnt mattter if they have a frame with a big AOE or an epic primary or melee. There is content they have to do for resources that is simply too easy for them.

 

The real solution as we had teased upon us at least once before (there was some time ago a very high level defence that payed something like 5 nitain) is to have very hard versions of missions that are only available to end game players that pay out ramped up rewards. There is then no reason for for high level players to destroy the fun of newer players

^^^^^ this 100%

[-_Highlander_-]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

Whether you do it or not, the majority of the community DOES speedrun. You do not see people standing around killing enemies in a capture mission. They go to the target and kill it then leave. The parkour system incentives this kind of play by everyone trying to one up eachother and show who's better at getting through missions. Not to mention the lack of incentive to actually kill them.

And there you are talking about 1 thing .. didn't read any of my content ..

trows only 1 based capture subject to the disscusion .. while i talked about global situations

you forget to many other things that doesnt have any sence of speed running

--- here let me enlight you ---

PoE

Mobile defense

Defense 

Survival

Excavation 

Interception

Deffection

Sabotage

Extermination

Assasination ( bosses )

Spy

-----------------------------------

So Far no speed running based .. unless you have the feel to need it to do fast

Capture

Rescue 

 

So far more based on speed running thats correct .. but not always

that this community are building them selfs for speed running .. is becuase we wanna make more kills than the other persons . in this way we can beat that easy

while newcommers are left behind have no clue what to do .. so yeah there you go 1 reason to do not quick speed running

 

In the old days .. god i miss that sometimes

it where all more based on team works

and now its like how fast can you fly like an chicken thru an mission and don't care about others 

I wished that this game falls back in the old habbit and helped more towards others

that team support is important once again 

[RealPandemonium]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 This is a low mission level problem, not the basis of the game. The essence of the game is not really there due to a current problem we have with mission levels. In higher level missions, those skilled based challenges are here in the game. The problem is that those levels are not readily available. If they were and people had a reason to go there, the game would lose the farming simulator stigma it has. The whole "game is easy" is the reason why there are balance issues such as OP's.

I don't know if you remember Phoenix Intercept Escalation, but that mission right there was the closest we got to readily available challenges. Design Council challenges being the next.

These high level missions you describe are the same as low level: spam invulnerability, stun-lock, etc and use maladjusted [melee is popular for this now] damage options to kill helpless enemies, but occasionally you die in one hit because level XXX+.  Best fire up that macro so you don't mess up!  Phoenix Intercept was cheesed with Trinity bugs and overlooked Slash proc interactions then (along with a copious amount of map-wide stun-lock,) and today would be trivially cheesed by Ash, CV (if daggers were allowed,) or just memeingstrike+bloodrush spam possibly supplemented by Arcane Trickery loops.

This is a fundamental problem with the modding and damage systems not being maintained for 4+ years.  The game has been broken at its core for a long time, and fixing this is far down on the developers' priority list.  Instead they cash in on semicasual dracoborn players who grind as much mastery rank as they can and then dip until the next major update gives them some more meaningless rote to rehearse.  The things that make Warframe fun, like mastering the movement system and tasting different flavors of weapons and frames in a variety of game modes, have become increasingly irrelevant and the common wisdom now is that 90% of the game's content is "Trash" and not worth experiencing. Not sure if DE is really aware of this since they don't play the game very much and can't seem to empathize with the average player.  If they do do something, it has to be big enough to not be eternally "too little, too late."