Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[(PSN)DSLog-_-]

I feel like the changes from the status is very bad due to the fact that it makes her only job to put spores on everything like currently there many ways to play her (most played way is the moly and spores synergy which I disliked the most) I really hope that molt is changed to make it not a nessicary ability and instead make her other synergies better like toxic lash and spores. Also miasma should become a different ablilty and I don’t mean what happened with contagion to miasma instead a compete change to make her more diversited . a suggestion: her 4 will create a cloud that proc toxin and If the enemy has spores it will deal toxin damage with its viral/corrosive. Also if toxic lash is active then it will have additional damage. Overall I think the ability need to be changed 

[Konachibi]

Just now, Knight_Ex said:

Viral is just better, arguing viral versus corrossive is a dumb arguement, sure its great for stripping armor, not that we don't have other frames with this capability, or you know corrossive projection.

Well yeah exactly.  Corrosive works fine on rapid fire guns, for everything else it's practically useless in comparison to effects like Viral, Radiation etc.  I build all my melee weapons for Viral because it can rip apart enemies way faster than a Corrosive build could ever hope to achieve.  Making Spores do Corrosive damage is only going to hurt Saryn and drop her damage down, which is some sick irony considering they acknowledge Saryn as a 'damage frame' in the original post, and they've done exactly the same with Ember.  DE are killing off damage frames under the guise of it being a 'rework'.

[Knight_Ex]

1 minute ago, -Cpt said:

I've already posted here but I want to put in more input. Saryn's spores NEED to be recast-able this will make me very happy with the rework because then I can keep that "infinite scaling" up and going if I play well enough it would be fun, kinda like combo counters, also using an ability a lot is funner then casting it hope it does things and leaving it, if spores is not recast-able it will KILL Saryn you need to realize this please change that I don't care if you revert all the other buffs to her other abilities the main ability that matters for Saryn is her 1 and if that is useless Saryn is USELESS please please consider this I'm very worried for my baby. 

Also I assume you are replacing spores carrying toxic damage with the "infinite scaling" because you said shes not very beginner friendly which is what I like about her, that you must know her kit very well and carry toxin and gas weapons on you if you want her to be at her full potential, I got her at MR 2 back when you could go to any planet if someone takes you there and I farmed her myself. Shes the only frame I use all three of my weapons with depending on how I want to spread her spores at her current state she is very fun and I think if you don't like the "press two and spawn one" play style simply removing her casting one on two will fix that (you already noted that that will be changed but you didn't need to go off and change everything else) I do agree the spores carrying toxic damage is unstable at times and acts funny but it can be very powerful if you know how to use it, I guess there wont be a point of bringing all toxic weapons anymore because her 3 will now do that for you so IMO that makes her less fun. 

All things considered as long as spores are spam-able to keep that damaging scaling I agree with this rework and am looking forward to it please take what I said in consideration and to be honest if this rework kills her It's killing me from continuing to play the game.

Saryn should NOT be beginner friendly in the first place, this mentality DE has taken with some frames has me baffled, she is unlocked on Sedna for christ sake, do people realize how far that is into the game for some players, OH unless they mean that they are not selling enough Saryn frames from their store to new players cause of the difficulty curve ...*rolls eyes*

[Ozamchist]

4 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Well here's another thing for you, Saryn's passive prolonges the duration of elemental effects on enemies.  For Toxic, that means it does damage for longer before coming off, for Viral it means that enemy has 50% less health for longer, for Corrosive it doesn't do jack-s**t after the initial small reduction in armour so what's the point in making the wibbly-wobbly green fuzz around an enemy last longer?

Her passive wouldn't matter now for any element on her 1 since it has infinite duration now. The ability her viral is attached to is again a burst so her passive works well on that now.

[Darkncoldead]

as a finall input, there are a lot of frames that can strip down armor, saryn is unuqie because of the viral, so please augment the range of miasma or change they way it works cause it will be expensive to spam, I was surprised when you said on the prime time that there is no problem with saryn to keep her energy, you need to play her more cause everytime I cast miasma I have to use my operators zenurik bubble to prevent energy loss.

also it would be cool to be able to switch damage type on spores like ivara changes arrow, I would freakin love that and I'm sure everyone will

[nathrizarri]

When I was first introduced to the game via friend, Saryn Prime instantly catch my eye with her rich/wonderful looks especially on helmet/shoulder tentacles. Seeing her getting another rework is a big alteration to my WF time since I use her for the most part, she is deffo my fav. I have couple things I want to share that might help the development.

Spores/Miasma Dmg swap:

I favor spores having viral over corrosive, mainly because

1- viral benefits regardless of enemy type meanwhile corrosive can be subjective to have on high armor enemies. Spores are more general use meanwhile miasma is here and there, not all the time, perfectly goes well with my previous statement.

2- Corrosive stays forever, suits more for one time application while viral wears off, returning enemy to original hp, therefore rendering its previous usefulness(afaik). Viral spores can achieve constant proc meanwhile corrosive when necessary to apply high armor enemies sound very interactive with the game/enemy in a fun way to me. Dude talked about duration being less attractive but with this I can say that duration and miasma has a strong relation to get a meaningful viral duration untill enemies die,which counters his intention.

Toxic Lash

Needs an animation/vfx indicator to have it visible clearly, especially as a melee saryn, I find myself checking timers at the bottom to see whether I have it or not. More clear visuals would be appreciated. I actually wanted to see the devstream molt activation vfx on saryn at toxic lash and permanent to give players a clear view.

I will surely miss toxin spread since regardless of damage, Condition Overload could benefit from an enemy that already have 2 status on them when we focus it.

Edited May 11, 2018 by nathrizarri
clear up some misunderstanding potential and added some fresh thoughts.

[Ozamchist]

12 minutes ago, Keltik0ne said:

Yea, I got 1 thing wrong, something you didn't notice and admitted it.

Feel free to consider what you have written.

I have pointed out the toxic lash changes several times before you got around to noticing it, and if you think you have been wrong about only one thing here your still in the crowd of knee jerking that the many of the people who doubted her last rework fell into.

Edited May 11, 2018 by TermiteFrame

[Ryufireknight]

Why are you making her spores an armor stripper? Why? Corrosive Projection, Oberon, stat weapons with corrosive, etc. already exist. Saryn was good against every enemy type now she's just like all of the others. Yawning at armor but cursing energy leaches and enhanced shields in sorties. If you were going to throw her ability logic out of the door then why not give spores corrosive and give miasma a magnetic proc? Then Saryn could be the no more protection frame and she's still be good against at least 2/3 of the enemy types.

But now she's run of the mill against armored enemies and lost her group support against shielded and non armored enemies other than a small AOE (vs a self spreading ability that, once cast, afflicted every enemy that had been born within the last 4000 years) that costs an arm and a leg while losing her energy regen even though you're now FORCING us to use her overpriced spicy taco fart attack.

Please just leave the nuke frames alone. First Ember and now this. Just stop. Please. Fix the other frames to get them up to speed. Buff them to kingdom come but stop with the "No, this is so much better guys! Really!" nurfs. It's not better, it's taking Saryn's uniqueness away and making her mundane and boring.

Why do you hate the female frames? You told Valkyr to stop being so hysterical, nurfed Ember's fiery spunk, made Khora an annoying and underpowered cat lady, and you're making Saryn conform to the other frame's standards of group contribution... what next? You going to tell Banshee that she's meant to be seen and not heard and focus her balance on her silence ability? Gunna tell Octavia that girls don't crank the base? Gunna tell Nova to stop rushing/slowing down people because that's not proper lady-like behavior? Tell Mag to stop being so clingy? Tell Ivara to show it all or gtfo? Ground Zephyr and tell her that women aren't allowed to fly? Shame Titania out of her love of butterflies and fairies because no one will take her seriously if she appears too girly? Tell Nyx to not be so bossy? Tell Mirage she shouldn't look like those around her? Or are you going to tell Trinity that she's less of a woman because she's a.... well I think I've made my point...

[Purity]

38 minutes ago, Knight_Ex said:

Or..OR they could leave Saryn alone cause she's honestly fine as is, except the molt+spore turret....take that out if you want but leave how spores works alone.  #LeaveSarynAlone

Well tbh that works too cuz I like my setup. But. They won't do that so hopefully aome suggestions could be taken into consideration. So that saryn doeant turn into a failed frame

[Crimson_Ruby_313]

Seems she is getting a buff... just corrosive to viral? why???? I guess better wait and see the changes but probably thank you? 

It is just funny now that saryn is widely used you say rework. And... why is saryn on sedna boss? BECAUSE new players don't play with it? and prime is vaulted. So it doesnt matter really. And basically I myself have tought many newbies to play with saryn and many others do as well. Funny reason then. It is just.... doesn't seem so... I dunno suddenly changing so much? One more time why corrosive goes viral? XD Seriosly why?

Edited May 11, 2018 by Crimson_Ruby_313

[Praesagium]

hace 1 hora, Knight_Ex dijo:

People who are brimming with excitement have not experienced how Saryn works first hand, but again there is nothing wrong with her kit, as I said this is what I believe is DE's response to the Onslaught and at the same time a nerf to Saryn's kit due to map clearing prowess, again those of us that are experienced with Saryn and understand how her abilities synergize with eachother enjoy the way she plays, she was one of the VERY limited frames that requires actual skill to maximize her damage potential, when the map was suddenly killed or constantly dying when the enemies were over level 150 you could take pride in knowing that you were the cause of that, I really can't find anything else to say without actually trying out the rework, I honestly don't trust DE to not completely bork everything with their special touch of nerf this nerf that and then make some balance adjustments afterward, so my response # leaveSarynAlone

Yeah its a joke, looks to convenient that two weeks after onslaught release and people playing more saryn they say "saryn rework". Saryn doesn't need a rework, a lot of frames need a rework but hey, lets rework the frame people use on onslaught because we dont want you cheese things. But spend plat/time getting maiming strike/equinox.

 

hace 1 hora, noah33noah dijo:

The proof is the first thing they show at the beginning of the stream, rebb shows a screenshot of what seems to be a small logbook entry from 16 feb. Do you really think pablo came up with this rework in under three weeks?

 

They can show a SS showing that the rework was on the way since feb, but i can show a SS showing im mr 24 with more than 5000 hours in game and thats dosen't means its true.

[Knight_Ex]

Just now, TermiteFrame said:

I have pointed out the toxic lash changes several times before you got around to noticing it, and if you think you have been wrong about only one thing here your still in the crowd of knee jerking that the many of the people who doubted her last rework feel into.

Ok Im tired of you trying to lotter or pound your chest cause you think its a big deal that you were around for her previous rework,  I'm about to take you down a peg so prepare yourself for a reaming,

- Your so called previous rework was Saryns very first large rework which altered her entire kit and not just slight rewards on her 4th ability [She had like 4 I believe]

- Your bragging about a rework from a frame that was 1-2 years without any drastic changes, which doesn't amount to much, almost in the vein of Mags first rework, when your starting on the bottom the only way to go was up

- Her rework was merely a press 4 to win removal which everyone abused the hell out of, of course there would be complaints, its like the ones that were *@##$ing about world on fire changes

- Spores were not utilized to begin with the complaints revolved around her 4 changes

- Her only real rework was done in Update 17, anything else are considered fixes

So get off your high horse, your not some kind of vetern that survived the war, no one cares that you happened to be around during her changes, or the only changes that really mattered, again if your bragging about slight updates and tweaks to her kit then you don't have anything to brag about as no other changes were as substancial as this, aside from the upcoming ones. for the record her last major rework wasn't "last year" it happened 2 years ago.

[(PSN)DSLog-_-]

11 minutes ago, nathrizarri said:

When I was first introduced to the game via friend, Saryn Prime instantly catch my eye with her rich/wonderful looks especially on helmet/shoulder tentacles. Seeing her getting another rework is a big alteration to my WF time since I use her for the most part, she is deffo my fav. I have couple things I want to share that might help the development.

Spores/Miasma Dmg swap:

I favor spores having viral over corrosive, mainly because

1- viral benefits regardless of enemy type meanwhile corrosive can be subjective to have on high armor enemies. Spores are more general use meanwhile miasma is here and there, not all the time, perfectly goes well with my previous statement.

2- Corrosive stays forever, suits more for one time application while viral wears off, returning enemy to original hp, therefore rendering its previous usefulness(afaik). Viral spores can achieve constant proc meanwhile corrosive when necessary to apply high armor enemies sound very interactive with the game/enemy in a fun way to me. Dude talked about duration being less attractive but with this I can say that duration and miasma has a strong relation to get a meaningful viral duration untill enemies die,which counters his intention.

Toxic Lash

Needs an animation/vfx indicator to have it visible clearly, especially as a melee saryn, I find myself checking timers at the bottom to see whether I have it or not. More clear visuals would be appreciated. I actually wanted to see the devstream molt activation vfx on saryn at toxic lash and permanent to give players a clear view.

I will surely miss toxin spread since regardless of damage, Condition Overload could benefit from an enemy that already have 2 status on them when we focus it.

I completely agree with you completely but I do feel she needs changes mainly to molt and miasma

[Knight_Ex]

Im ok with getting rid of spore+molt turret and some changes with the molt and miasma, but the spore ability needs to remain the same, I do like the changes proposed with toxic lash, again another abilty that people don't usually use the full extent of.

[Ozamchist]

9 minutes ago, Knight_Ex said:

Ok Im tired of you trying to lotter or pound your chest cause you think its a big deal that you were around for her previous rework,  I'm about to take you down a peg so prepare yourself for a reaming,

- Your so called previous rework was Saryns very first large rework which altered her entire kit and not just slight rewards on her 4th ability [She had like 4 I believe]

- Your bragging about a rework from a frame that was 1-2 years without any drastic changes, which doesn't amount to much, almost in the vein of Mags first rework, when your starting on the bottom the only way to go was up

- Her rework was merely a press 4 to win removal which everyone abused the hell out of, of course there would be complaints, its like the ones that were *@##$ing about world on fire changes

- Spores were not utilized to begin with the complaints revolved around her 4 changes

- Her only real rework was done in Update 17, anything else are considered fixes

So get off your high horse, your not some kind of vetern that survived the war, no one cares that you happened to be around during her changes, or the only changes that really mattered, again if your bragging about slight updates and tweaks to her kit then you don't have anything to brag about as no other changes were as substancial as this, aside from the upcoming ones. for the record her last major rework wasn't "last year" it happened 2 years ago.

I never said her rework was last year so why even bring that up. Most of the people here are claiming nonsense, yourself included, that these changes were done because of survival onslaught, when it's been displayed multiple times this is not the case. Many of these reactions are not very well thought out and knee jerk (nothing new there, even i initial was hesitant about the viral corrosive swap and then I actually sat down and thought about it). We are here doubting the guy responsible for two of the strongest scaling frames in the game (nidus, harrow) and the man responsible for her first rework. I'm not pounding my chest I'm telling you history is going to repeat itself, and that you should be a lot more careful and think a lot more critically about where you stand.

[SaiSoul7895]

Can you please keep the viral on spores? We do have armour stripping warframes / weapons. Saryn must keep her viral on her 1 to be unique. 

[(PSN)TX193]

I'm a little concerned about the changes here.

First just the philosophy behind the changes. Frame complexity is going to be an issue where not everyone can be happy. Some people want more straightforward frames, some people want more complicated frames. A perfect frame can be played simply but also has a lot of depth, interaction, and complexity. Saryn is, to me, one of those more complicated frames, and that's fine. You get her from the last boss in the game, a point which I doubt anyone will get to without reading the wiki or going off to do their own thing with the game. For her to be complicated makes sense because people are ready for that complexity by the time they can access her.

Anyway, onwards.

I don't like that the spores would become corrosive procs. I'm just sick of playing around corrosive, and by extension Grineer. I get that the large number of procs caused by spores are better for corrosive damage, but honestly the viral is already strong enough and is generally more versatile and fun.

I don't really like removing the synergy between spores and molt, though it's not a synergy that I ever found particularly important, and as long as we still can cast spores on molt I don't think it's gonna hurt that badly.

I don't like Toxic Lash getting changed like this at all. First, as some people have noted, though she might have reduced energy costs, her way of regaining energy from melee hits on enemies infected with spores wasn't just a great way to get energy that parasitic eximus couldn't steal for a timely cast, it encouraged her to move from target to target, slashing and hacking then leaving her DoT to finish them while she chased down the next spore infected enemy. It's great design that I'll be crushed to lose. Secondly, I don't think it encourages varied gameplay with her. As it stands, Toxic Lash encourages using at least two of Saryn's weapons and changing between them during the match, because you don't want to use melee without Toxic Lash, but Toxic Lash and its gameplay are taxing on your energy and health. If Toxic Lash gives a damage buff to your other weapons as well, and no longer returns energy, it provides much less incentive to stop using whatever weapon you're using or change up your gameplay. It makes her more one dimensional and less unique as a frame.

Lastly Miasma is an ability I just don't understand. I... have never seen it as useful. To the point that I don't even understand how it does damage. Is it an aura of damage with a duration, an explosion of damage that does DoT, and explosion that leaves a cloud of damage? Whatever the case, it doesn't really matter when spores outclasses it for damage due to the sheer number of spores and the size of the DoT procs it can rack up. Why not have it be a decent length aura of many small corrosive ticks to strip some armor? I don't reckon the damage from it really matters, so make it utility?

Also, final note, changing status chance on spores from 10% to 50% is, I'm assuming, only necessary if you make the damage corrosive because I never see any enemy that has spores but not viral. It doesn't take a lot.

TL;DR, Saryn is fine, though Miasma is disappointing to me, and I sincerely don't want to see her changed. Happy to see there's an armor buff coming at least, so small woo. That'll let me play her as a melee bruiser more.

[Foxbat40]

22 hours ago, ngrazer said:

Hi!

I think it's pretty well-known that as of right now Saryn's spores allows her to compete with other frames in terms of overall usefulness. Cast Spores on a Molt, pop 'em, few moments later new enemies spawn - cast the Spores and pop 'em again to affect those new enemies. This is extremely useful and convenient to keep enemies under the effect of Spores.

New 'recast to pop' is completely destroying this thing.

 

The new mechanic forces you and your team to kill mobs in order to spread spores. Since this is something you should already be doing, I don't see a problem with this. You can also spread spores by popping them with Toxic lash on any weapon or by shooting the spores directly. So max range builds will still be good. 

[Onigirigo]

I'd want a Excalibur Javelin rework 😞

[TheEternalJester]

Is it me, or is the spore spread range shorter in the Primetime? I swear I might be going insane but it seriously seems like the Spores didn't spread as far as it normally does.

[noah33noah]

1 minute ago, TheEternalJester said:

Is it me, or is the spore spread range shorter in the Primetime? I swear I might be going insane but it seriously seems like the Spores didn't spread as far as it normally does.

I tested the range on mot with the same build as in the stream and I got similar results. Its most likely due to the low range (145% range isnt that much for saryn, most people use at least 190% or 235%) and the low spawn rates in solo survival so spores couldnt really spread (they were also doing a lot of dmg).

[ZarakkiZenn]

Changes to her molt and toxic lash are welcome, as is the removal of spamming 1 into your 2. That should have been foreseen as obviously players will seek out the most "effective" way of doing things and spamming 1 into your 2 was even encouraged. Bad move.

With that in mind, what becomes the most effective way to play Saryn under this rework: hit 1, kill an en enemy, hit 4; rinse and repeat. That will be enough to clear any low level area as far as range allows. Not great either. In higher levels, it becomes a waiting game: hit 1, spread, wait for corrosive procs, hit 4/kill with weapons. Better, but not superb either. I find gameplay is at its best when its reactive and not repetitive: you must react to your environment and the reaction is always a choice among options you weigh quickly and execute.

If bizarre synergies are at the heart of this rework, the solution is simple: forget about the miasma synergies, make it deal corrosive damage and proc, and infuse active spores (not popped by miasma) with only a little corrosive damage and proc chance, only once. So your ultimate remains a quick cc move that also helps deal with hardened targets, and if the spores aren't popped by miasma, the viral and toxic damage that's been transfered (yes, keep that, it's unique and ads some rewarding randomness) ramp up because the target has less armor.

At least this way it'd retain its identity and unique gameplay while also leaving behind some of those unintuitive synergies. No need to drastically rework a popular and well liked frame because, what's the upside?

 

Edit: also, infinite duration and scaling damage sound good on paper only imo, as the community will always prefer "kills fast" over "ramps up", and making spores infinite duration and not recastable alters the basic feel of the frame in favor of what? less energy consumption? I'll agree that "see an enemy, hit 1, kill it" is somewhat clunky at first compared to "see an enemy, kill it", but it's become the feel of the frame by now and ads in the form of less passive gameplay. That said, it's been scripted, it's going live...

Edited May 11, 2018 by ZarakkiZenn

[Shadedraxe]

What’s with all of these complaints about spores becoming corrosive and Miasma becoming viral. Currently for Saryn’s kit, multiple viral procs through spores become useless once they proc the same enemies again until the timer runs out and corrosive procs aren’t really all that great with diminishing returns unless you get a whole lot of them. Well now Sayrn’s spores spread a whole lot of corrosive procs with a boosted status chance, and her ult is a global guaranteed viral proc to deal damage and half every enemies health as well. This is awesome guys!!!

[Xyhon]

For the love of whatever, stop dancing around armor scaling issue, and just reroll armor stats on higher levels. Spores do corrosive. Geez.

[Konachibi]

On 2018-05-10 at 7:00 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

Also I'd like to just bring this to your attention DE.  According to this original post, you want players to 'feel more involved' when playing Saryn, and then you bring this point up.  

Let me tell you what will happen with this change and the Spore rework.

Currently, players can set a Molt, apply Spores to it, shoot the Spores to spread them to every enemy, and then gun all the enemy down because the viral proc has made them squishy.  This is an interactive way of playing Saryn that promotes the use of multiple abilities, benefits the entire team,  and allows the player to control the fight.  Obviously some players do abuse this by spamming Spores on Molt, but that could easily be changed by restricting Molt to only allowing a single Spore cast on it and no more.

What your 'rework' will do is, instead of players using Spores and Molt in the usual way, and actually using their guns to kill stuff, instead they will apply Spores to an enemy, then cast a Molt in the corner of a room and stand behind it while they wait for the Spores to very slowly do their work because the players gun won't kill enemies as quickly as they did before the 'rework'.  They'll choose to spread, hide and wait for the damage to increase instead of taking action.  Your 'rework' will make Saryn LESS interactive.  

Also as pointed out, what you're doing is changing a cheap and fast ability that works on every enemy type in the game, and making it work on only ONE enemy type in the game.  Corrosive is useless on infested, it's useless on Corpus, it's only good on Grineer.  What you're saying is if people want to use Saryn against Corpus or Infested, they have to build specifically for Miasma, so an efficiency+range build which will then limit her usage of Toxic Lash and Molt, in order to get the same effect they had prior to the 'rework' on an ability that only cost 25 energy, could be cast while moving, and didn't need to be spammed.

Explain to me, explain to everyone, how making Saryn less interactive and more in to a 'press 4 to win' frame again is somehow 'GOOD' for her.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Konachibi