I'd like to make a civil argument for better PvP, as an oldschool player.

[Stravask]

Hey everyone.

To start, I'm well aware this is a divisive topic that people are vehemently for, or against, depending on who you talk to.

But, please, I ask that the extremism be set aside temporarily.
To be clear, I'm very much in the camp that PvP is absolutely good for the future of Warframe, and have held that stance since, well, forever.

But please, before you immediately jump to the "DURR HURR YOU HAVE PVP ALREADY" or "THIS IS A PVE GAME, PVP HAS NO PLACE IN IT" screamfest that these types of forums frequently devolve into, I ask that you at least hear me out.

Simply put, I desire PvP because PvP, when done right, is fun. And it's a form of fun that can, theoretically, be done endlessly without getting old.
This is why most of the big online games are PvP-centric. There's a level of challenge and feeling of accomplishment through competitive activity that simply can't be provided by PvE content.

Sure, mowing down mindless enemies is fun, but for the majority of people, it's not fun forever. Not that I'm claiming anything so idiotic as "Warframe will die without PvP", but I am saying it would be good for the future of Warframe to acknowledge that pure "mow down enemies through a level" gameplay is niche, much like the Dynasty Warriors series is niche.

Now, obviously, Warframe provides much more variance in gameplay than Dynasty Warriors, but the comparison is there to provide a point: Warframe is, just out of simple fact, losing out on a reasonably-sized chunk of potential players because it is so rigidly PvE.

I am not asking for a major shift in focus to a PvP-centric game, or disregarding that there have been a few (failed) attempts at implementing a form of PvP into Warframe before. Not at all. I am well aware PvP should never be a "focus" due to the core gameplay of Warframe.
But it could be done so much better with the proper amount of attention and care given to it, and there's a number of reasons to do so.

- First, to be blunt, the reason I quit playing for a very long time, and still have a hard time getting into it for periods of time when a friend wants me to play, is that there's simply no "reason" for me to play anymore. And I am not the only old player who has burned out and quit.
The fact is, in order to keep people playing, Warframe has to constantly add new content to PvE, because there's an end. There's a point when you've gotten all the stuff, played all the stuff, and done all the stuff. There's an end. This is why the Monster Hunter series, which uses a very similar gameplay pattern and grind-based progression system (to the point where I would make a strong argument that a significant portion of how Warframe's core gameplay was designed was MH-inspired) needs to release a new game every year (or couple years in the 'States) in order to retain it's playerbase. PvE games have an end, and while that works for individual-entry series like MH, Warframe is an online game.
The first time I quit, it was because, frankly, I'd unlocked and played and refined everything I was interested in. I'd gotten every weapon and frame I wanted, upgraded all the mods I wanted, and so on. I had nothing left to do. PvP, in a well-designed form, fixes this issue. Human vs Human interaction is endless. Metas evolve and change endlessly. PvP provides a literal perpetual endgame of content. If it was there in a well-done form, players like myself would never have quit, and would still be buying Platinum, and would still be recommending and recruiting people into Warframe.

- Second, PvP is fun to the (frankly, you're going to have to just accept) huge amount of players who enjoy it. Very arguably, if the current scene of online gaming is any indicator, the majority of online gamers. Warframe's PvP doesn't need to try to be the next CounterStrike to have fun PvP, and it doesn't need to devote an overly-large amount of resources to PvP. Hell, when I played a ton, I loved when the Stalker showed up and would literally do everything I could to heighten my chances of him chowing up because it was fun to fight another Warframe (until I could 1shot him obviously).
Treating it as a throwaway game mode and having the community act like somehow adding more content for a section of its community that's been asking for it for literal years is somehow going to "ruin" the game is just... blind. There's nothing but things to gain from implementing a good, supported PvP system. PvP-lovers aren't wanting Warframe to become "like all those other online games", despite what anti-PvP players want to pretend. 

- Third, most of us just want a form of PvP that's actually accessible and enjoyable for anyone interested in it, without it being so  niche that the only people who enjoy it at all are those who devote a disturbing amount of time to it in order to be even close to competitive.  A lot of these players just want to have a PvP mode that feels like Warframe's gameplay, where they can use all their carefully-decided grinding and gameplay skills that they've gained in PvE in a competitive setting against another player. Yes, Warframe has, or had, a sort-of PvP mode. but it feels like such a throwaway mode that a lot of people don't even remember it exists. The playerbase for it is tiny not because "nobody wants PvP in Warframe", the playerbase is tiny because the only PvP option provided is a game mode that's basically just "we turned on damage against other players" and so it doesn't feel interesting or interactive most times. The conclave is riddled with issues that come from a lack of attention. The conclave-rating system for mods was a step in the right direction but has never been really supported, some Warframes are just outright superior to the majority of the roster, and so on.
I could probably make a whole thread on "how to make PvP in Warframe good", but so could many others and I'm sure many have. That's a separate topic, I'm simply trying to point out the reasons for implementing a PvP system that's actually cared about.

- Fourth, I can't stress enough that I'm not saying "Warframe is dying", but there's a concept in Game Design called "Feature Bloating", or more commonly understood during the development process as "Feature Creep" (though there is a distinction). In short, after a certain point, adding more features can actually cause more issues than benefits. Think of it like building endless additions onto a house: After a certain point, the amount of work required to add interesting things to the house exceeds the skill or workload-tolerance of the people developing the house, as well as not really adding anything new of interest to people touring the house. Not to mention, it gets to the point where entering the house for the first time becomes daunting, confusing, and difficult for people. Endless PvE content tends to have this effect after a few years of game development, and while I'm not remotely claiming that PvP is immune to it, I am saying that the cost/benefit of adding a good PvP mode is significantly weighted in the "benefit" side as far as feature-bloating is concerned. Significant benefit for catering to the sections of the community (and future potential players) who are looking for it, without adding another layer to the already very high entry barrier that Warframe can be to new players.

Thanks for reading, I could make a list that goes on and on, and I'm not really here to debate, I simply wanted to make a thread that wasn't just a rage-fueled debate-fest with regards to the topic of adding a good PvP mode to Warframe. In short, PvP quite simply can't "ruin" Warframe, and it requires nowhere near the level of resources that people like to pretend it does. Warframe is already set up for it, and just needs tweaks in the PvP modes that go in the right direction to allow for it to be interesting and accessible (if it wasn't, people wouldn't have been asking for it ever since the game's release). Not to mention, there's plenty of good things that come from introducing a well-done PvP system into an online, "Personalized Avatar"-style game like Warframe. Especially one that's so centrally focused on being a Space Ninja killing humanoids with weapons.

Hopefully this thread gets a little attention without becoming a flame-fest, but this community tends to do that to any thread about PvP so we'll see. I just hope maybe I've convinced a few people to not hate the idea of a polished PvP mode, and maybe one day we can get the thing that I, and many other players I've known who eventually quit, have been waiting literally years to see. Thanks again!

[motorfirebox]

The main problem I see is that the things that make Warframe fun for PvE are difficult or impossible to implement in a PvP setting. PvP combat already lacks the extreme speed and maneuverability of PvE Warframe, because that kind of movement would make the skill barrier too high for most players to find PvP enjoyable. Similarly, PvE Warframe is largely built around being able to nuke the crap out of everything around you. Try to implement that in PvP, and you get one of two things: either nukes are nerfed to the point of being largely irrelevant (seems to be where PvP is currently, given energy scarcity); or Lagframe, in which the winner is always the player who can get their nuke off first.

Most games that have both PvE and PvP implement some significant differences between the modes, but I feel like for the most part the goal is to make both modes feel basically like they're at least part of the same game. But Warframe's PvE mode is so inimical to PvE, I just don't see how you can do it.

Full disclosure, I haven't gotten into PvP in any serious capacity since around the time Alliance warlocks could port half the raid into Frostwolf Keep, so I'd be a hard sell even if Warframe PvP was great.

[Gandergear]

I dislike PVP, however if there was a PVE->PVP resource sink added it could stimulate the WF economy which has become stagnant and rife with inflation. For example if consumables were added to PVP that could only be created through PVE encounters (or trading) that would do wonders for the plat market.

[Drejzer]

Warframe gameplay, with its speed and bulls#!t we can pull off (get a Mesa and duration Limbo, and you get death-dealing untouchable horror for any enemy (and being on the receiving end of this is... not fun)), is really fun to play... and ridiculously hard to put into a pvp scenario... 

Well, the "Railjack" could allow us to level the playing field and allow for somewhat balanced pvp with the spaceship battles (and I'd love to see that)...

[Croise]

Pvp was never a big thing in warframe and will never be^^i know this sound like no one want to listen  to the things you have to say........but it is like it is!heads up^^

[CandyManCriminal]

personally i don't like PvP, never have never will
but i'm all for it being spruced up for those that DO enjoy it

[Stravask]

To be clear, I'm not saying a 1-to-1 translation of PvE gameplay would work for PvP, and like I said in my original post, the goal was not to debate the specifics of "how to make Warframe PvP good", and simply to bring up that there is a very logical middle ground between the extremes and that PvP (if done well) can do literally nothing but help extend the lifetime and playerbase of Warframe. Furthermore, that adding a polished PvP mode would add content without "bloating" the game, which is very realistically something that we can argue we're starting to see happen (Warframe isn't exactly new after all).

That disclaimer being said, I am in full agreement and support that the normal PvE speed and power would not work for PvP and would heavily argue for a toning down of those traits for the sake of an interesting PvP mode. 
Moving 10-million-miles-per-hour is cool-looking and all, but is zero fun in a PvP setting unless it's a specialty (with drawbacks) of a particular playstyle. For example, Volt in speed mode moving normal-PvE-levels-of-fast could fill that PvP niche, but not everyone should move nearly that fast. Same thing with Ash instakilling people or Rhino being perpetually unkillable: They can work as a niche, if tuned properly, but they obviously won't work if they're done at the same level as they're done in PvE. Someone in here has already said "you can't do PvP without removing the fun things" but that's purely anecdotal: I don't, and never have, needed to move at godlike speed to have "fun" playing Warframe, and I'm certainly not the only one who would be totally fine moving at a more reasonable speed in order to enjoy a PvP mode. If anything, the closest "core to Warframe's gameplay" thing you could remove for PvP would be the Parkour elements, and the Warframe-style Parkour would make PvP more fun for (as best I can guess) basically everyone playing it, so I don't think there's a danger of something like that needing removed.

But, again, that's why I've said that PvP doesn't require a major restructuring of anything, simply tweaking.
Like, for example, if the Conclave were presented as a spectator-sport battleground in-universe, and such had a sort of "gravity well" that artificially "weakened" warframes so that they didn't hit as hard and didn't move as fast "so that the Warframes don't kill each other", that presents you with a narrative reason for tweaking the numbers values in such a way that PvP could be fun and reasonably paced, without feeling too "arbitrary". 
We already have a faction system, why not translate that in-universe thing into a tournament as well, sort've like Solaris in the Mechwarrior/Battletech universe (for those that are familiar)?

Cannot stress enough that it's not like you'd have to have months of specific development time to make PvP interesting, just a proper, thoughtful approach to numbers tuning for the most part. Sure, not every WF is going to be great in PvP (my boy Nekros :c) unless you allowed for some specific actual development work (allowing Nekros to summon X units every time he ults in PvP?), and because of that it won't ever be "The Next E-Sport" or "Perfectly Balanced" (unless they specifically section off a team that's whole goal is developing and tuning PvP, one day), but that's no reason to ignore what could possibly be a great thing and make a bunch of players happy, keep old players around, and potentially draw in new players.

But again, my former two paragraphs are just to specify that I'm fully aware of the "PvP doesn't work with Warframe" sentiment, I'm simply pointing out (in hopefully a non-offensive manner) "sure it does, you're just looking at it from the wrong angle". I don't think anyone (who's knowledgeable, at least) thinks that a PvP mode where Ash can ult and instakill someone, or everyone slide-spins at 1,000,000,000 mph, would work, but that's the thing: Those are tuning/numbers problems, not core design problems. The core design of Warframe's gameplay absolutely could work very well in PvP, as when you break it down to its core elements it's really just a parkour-heavy hero-shooter, and we've already seen that type of gameplay work in several other games just fine.

But hey, I know I'm digressing, and hopefully this doesn't derail the topic, I just wanted to make it clear that my sentiment is absolutely not to just dump PvE gameplay into PvP, because that would, again, create just a half-assed throwaway game mode. I'm simply saying that if you wanted to go really bare-bones with making a solid PvP mode, you could just accomplish it purely through numbers-tuning and nothing else.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Stravask

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

I think you're missing the point here Stravask which is simply that Warframe is at it's core a PvE game. The only reason PvP was put in was because DE was trying to add a different type of experience into the game it kind worked for a short while. I understand that you feel the pvp could be improved and I agree it could. But I kinda feel you yourself aren't looking at all the angles either. DE puts all resources and effort into bringing the entire WF community new content and as stated earlier pvp isnt the core of this game and DE knows this which is why pvp has suffered in the eyes of those who like the pvp in WF. DE at this stage in WF life cycle cant really afford to focus on pvp because if they did they'd lose a large chunk of their player base and money.

[Falconer777]

3 часа назад, Stravask сказал:

The first time I quit, it was because, frankly, I'd unlocked and played and refined everything I was interested in. I'd gotten every weapon and frame I wanted, upgraded all the mods I wanted, and so on. I had nothing left to do. PvP, in a well-designed form, fixes this issue. Human vs Human interaction is endless. Metas evolve and change endlessly. PvP provides a literal perpetual endgame of content. If it was there in a well-done form, players like myself would never have quit, and would still be buying Platinum, and would still be recommending and recruiting people into Warframe.

I fully agree with this argument. PvP really gives an infinite endgame, solving the problem of boredom and burnout. In some other games, this is true, at least.
If PvP mode in this game was a little slower :), I would love to play it.

[Talonflight]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

I think you're missing the point here Stravask which is simply that Warframe is at it's core a PvE game. The only reason PvP was put in was because DE was trying to add a different type of experience into the game it kind worked for a short while. I understand that you feel the pvp could be improved and I agree it could. But I kinda feel you yourself aren't looking at all the angles either. DE puts all resources and effort into bringing the entire WF community new content and as stated earlier pvp isnt the core of this game and DE knows this which is why pvp has suffered in the eyes of those who like the pvp in WF. DE at this stage in WF life cycle cant really afford to focus on pvp because if they did they'd lose a large chunk of their player base and money.

I disagree. THere are plenty of old systems in the game that are in dire need of retouching and fixing that DE regularly ignores in favor of adding new content. The game as a whole is great, don't get me wrong; I wouldn't still be playing if I didnt love it. But theres plenty of stuff that hasn't been messed with in years (archwing, sharkwing, conclave, pets, enemy AI, raids, dark sector) that require retouching.

Also, as has been said, retouching PvP isn't going to suddenly lose them a huge chunk of players and money. Content releases for Warframe are literally years apart. Doing something like diverting a small team to mess with the PvP as a seperate issue from the new content will not "hurt" the PvE content, since PvP is an entirely seperate issue. No one SHOULD leave just because some other players are enjoying a different point of the content, thats just stupid.

[peterc3]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

The only reason PvP was put in was because DE was trying to add a different type of experience into the game it kind worked for a short while.

The only reason it was added was because people begged them to add it.

14 hours ago, Falconer777 said:

I fully agree with this argument. PvP really gives an infinite endgame, solving the problem of boredom and burnout. In some other games, this is true, at least.
If PvP mode in this game was a little slower :), I would love to play it.

You can't have an endgame that can't use what you you gained over the time in the game.

Most of the frame abilities are unsuitable for PvP. None of the damage systems are made with facing other players in mind. A fully modded Tigris P. would vaporize near anyone.

To have PvP they have had to have a completely different balance for the weapons and frames, change some of the abilities, remove most of the mods.

Infinite endgame for only the people who like PvP anyways. This is a minority of the players. They can't make PvP into the endgame for some players.

[RogueVoxel]

I think the biggest challenge for fixing PvP is the people that dont want it, you have to convince alot of people that conclave needs some development before it can even start

[Stormdragon]

As someone who enjoys the current conclave, I'm all in for improvements being made to it as long as its core remains the same.

Hell, I'd be happy if whoever is at charge of the conclave develpment started to post once in a while in conclave feedback to address concerns and/or explain the reasoning behind certain decisions in the same way as we see in bug reports, art&animation, sound, website/app, and other feedback subforums.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Stormdragon

[Stravask]

Il y a 2 heures, RogueVoxel a dit :

I think the biggest challenge for fixing PvP is the people that dont want it, you have to convince alot of people that conclave needs some development before it can even start

I agree, and though the more important thing is convincing the Devs to give PvP the development-respect it deserves so that they, y'know, develop it, the biggest hurdle to that is the people who are vehemently against PvP seemingly for no other reason than "I don't like these other PvP-focused online games".

The best way to combat both of those challenges is through education, and outlining the benefits while hopefully dispelling misgivings that some people have, which is what my goal was here by making my original post.

PvP won't and literally can't "ruin" Warframe or push it into becoming "Just like Overwatch/TF2/Counter-Strike/etc", and I don't think there's any people who want PvP that legitimately want Warframe to become like that. If they did, they wouldn't be playing Warframe in the first place.

Warframe is at its core a PvE, level-based, hack-n-slash style game. Absolutely true.
That doesn't mean PvP can't have a very healthy, and worthwile, place in the game as its core combat design and personalized leveling mechanisms already lend itself to the "I bet my Warframe can beat your Warframe" mentality, and it's an area of the game that's gone under-utilized in the past.

This is anecdotal, but literally the two biggest arguments I hear when I ask or see people who've quit playing are either A) "I ran out of stuff to do / it got too repetitive and boring" or B) "There's no PvP / no real attention given to PvP". A well implemented PvP system fixes both of those issues, thus maintaining players and potential customers.

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

22 hours ago, Talonflight said:

I disagree. THere are plenty of old systems in the game that are in dire need of retouching and fixing that DE regularly ignores in favor of adding new content. The game as a whole is great, don't get me wrong; I wouldn't still be playing if I didnt love it. But theres plenty of stuff that hasn't been messed with in years (archwing, sharkwing, conclave, pets, enemy AI, raids, dark sector) that require retouching.

Also, as has been said, retouching PvP isn't going to suddenly lose them a huge chunk of players and money. Content releases for Warframe are literally years apart. Doing something like diverting a small team to mess with the PvP as a seperate issue from the new content will not "hurt" the PvE content, since PvP is an entirely seperate issue. No one SHOULD leave just because some other players are enjoying a different point of the content, thats just stupid.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I agree a lot of older systems have been forgotten in favour of DE pushing out new content. The point I was making was that players leave not because they dont like the pvp part of a game, players leave because they feel the devs are catering to the pvp part of a game and not the core of the game which is pve. Some perfect examples of this are fortnite and the division. Fortnite was in development for 7+ years and at its core it was a pve based game then they threw together a battle royale mode in about the last few months before they released it and look what happened the pve gets forgotten while the quick cash cow BR gets everything. In the divisions case they did a real bad job implementing the pvp into the game. To make it worse the guns and gear that was abused in pvp got nerfed which heavily affected pve.

Yes pvp is a separate in warframe but in other games its not and it does affect the pve side of things. As you already know warframe gets stale for most really fast because they burnout on it so they always ask for new content which is a large portion of the warframe community. This kinda forces DE's hand at wanting to fix and touch up older systems in order to keep the community happy and the player base/count high.

Edited July 9, 2018 by (PS4)Deathscythex01

[Buttaface]

My ace MMO PvP days are long behind, and it would make WF a better game to enhance their PvP. But the howls of protest from... ehm... "PvE Superstars" when -any- loot requires PvP to gain,  even for cosmetics, is so deafening that we'll likely never see anything done with it.

WF is based on giving masses of very mediocre/bad, poor computer equipment/connection players a power fantasy at the sacrifice of replayability and depth, and that is not likely to change. Admittedly, other "hard" better games have failed, fallen by the wayside time and time again due to being even remotely difficult or rewarding actual skill... see Global Agenda as one of many examples... and WF is still here and growing.

[ShogunGunshow]

I've got a way to improve the PvP experience for people: Remove the PvP, so they can go play a game that's more suited for it.

[Tsardova]

As much as I like the idea of branching out from PVE focus a bit and making conclave a thing among us, I'm skeptical if it will ever catch fire to be honest.

 

It's just not what the main demographic identifies warframe as and the last thing we need is for WF to lose its identity ergo bleeding player count. We've seen this one too many times with multiple other games Multiplayer games; wildstar, TERA, Vindictus, and even Paragon. The latter being the most prominent in that even though it came from prominent developer and is designed as a PVP game, it faltered once it lost its identity. Hell, even single player game from way back like Dino Crisis just ceased to exist cause it didn't establish itself well as to what it is; a survival panic game/ action arcade, etc(???).

 

"PVP is fun to the players who enjoy it"; how much does that echo to the populace who play Warframe though. That is the key thing here, what we have right now is a game with a clear-cut identity; a coop-shooter grinder. When that is what people instantaneously think of WF, how many people do you really think will initiate a conversation regarding the game's pvp mode? The PVP scene is currently too focused on the whole Battle Royale genre, and the last thing we want is to see WF sink in that cesspool as well.

Furthermore, back in the days when we play on couch coop pvp, it was all in good fun and minor banters or punch to the shoulder would mean nothing more than laughing material. But now with the internet being... well... internet, and how toxic things get very quickly, the last thing we want is miscommunication and all-in-good-fun banter turning to flaming, trolling, etc from PVP niche seeping towards the PVE parts of the community thus making an even more disparity than what we already have.

 

Many times other multiplayer games try to incorporate PVP but they just don't fly, with only a niche segment of dedicated players playing said segment overtime and not even on a very consistent basis, making the developer investment in said segment seem moot, slowing down PVE content for the main segment of player base.

As much as PVP may seem to provide endless amount of possible fun, again it won't matter on the long run if there was, is, and will only have a very minuscule segment of the player base who enjoys it. As above, investing in a mode where the minority can enjoy the game indefinitely while possibly derailing/ confusing the majority of player base who comes in for what the game is identified as will just jeopardize the game's overall longevity.

[RacerDelux]

If they were to add anything PvE related, it should borrow from an idea I saw in Albion Online. You have two squads of 4 enter the same dungeon. Both team's goal is to clear all of the enemies, get loot and leave. Each team can choose to engage the other team and kill them, or work with them and split the reward. If both die nobody gets a reward.

Basically it is a PvPvE.

From what I have seen, the Railjack system could actually implement this quite well.

[Buttaface]

2 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

If they were to add anything PvE related, it should borrow from an idea I saw in Albion Online. You have two squads of 4 enter the same dungeon. Both team's goal is to clear all of the enemies, get loot and leave. Each team can choose to engage the other team and kill them, or work with them and split the reward. If both die nobody gets a reward.

Basically it is a PvPvE.

From what I have seen, the Railjack system could actually implement this quite well.

Global Agenda had this other than the cooperative option, and it was a very fun mode. One team was the "defense" and the "offense" team had to kill all the mobs and the boss while being harried/killed by the defense. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work in WF, especially if it offered distinct rewards only obtainable in that mode, but who knows for sure?

As stated, games with PvP woven into the core game or even as the focus of the game tend to be better in many ways, but they also tend to fail commercially.

[FRAMESERAPH]

I thought the railjack update was dual PVE/PVP expansion. With clans forming an alliance having squads pilot decked out ships, engaging in dogfights until a Tenno breaches the enemy and everything spirals into a conclave match. Fighting over solar rails or sections of the map.

 

Is that not the direction this update is taking?

[MimouAuditore]

If they made clans able to build dungeons and players can attack the dungeons for rewards, it'd be cool as a sort of pvp mode but without any real player vs player interactions. 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I've come to the conclusion in this day and age of development with the issues PVP brings to PVE and how PVE can effect PVP..It seems the Devs should hire a independent studio like they did to port Warframe to Switch or the Chinese Warframe and just have them concentrate on a PVP only version of Warframe... Think of all that room if there was no PVE aspect and they could concentrate on any PVP game mode from BR to Lunaro Rocket League. 

 

Because...The game's free, a player can have both versions installed or just one depending on their preferences...

 

...but the thing with PVP in a PVE game...is if it takes off it tend to ruin the PVE side of the game for everyone who enjoys PVE..PVP brings in the trolls calling players care bears, toxicity towards them, and general dismissal,  and before you know it, you have to have a PVP pedigree and ranking or number or KD and a pokemon history of what you did in the game to post anything on a forum or anywhere for constructive criticism or just have a normal conversation when PVP becomes serious business for the community...

Then developers get lazy..because the money is coming in, all they have to do is make a map dlc and balance weapons and whatever...PVE content like a campaign is then pushed aside till the next iteration and lately they don't even do that anymore...

PVP creeps into the PVE and nerfs anything of value against the Ai...and this is visa versa...PVE can easily destroy PVP in seconds when it creeps into it...

I would like PVP to have a place in Warframe...but...it's clear as crystal, both game types should be on separate Warframe games and developers should stop trying to have them crammed into the same room on your hard drive under one title where we get this tug of war...

Edited July 22, 2018 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Tyreaus]

Only one, critical question:

What?

The game already has a PvP system (and while you said to hold off on that comment to give you a chance, it's still a fact of the matter). That PvP, clearly, isn't enough to fulfill what you think would be best, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. It isn't popular except for a niche audience—that's the main problem. So, what should we do in particular? Do we try to make the extant, albeit unpopular, PvP better in some uncertain way? How do we market that to increase playerbase and popularity (which is the main issue plaguing any good matchmaking), especially given its extant reputation? Do we go for something completely different and rebuild it from the ground up, like some kind of MOBA-style thing that better fits with the horde shooter aspect? Can the resources be afforded for that kind of undertaking, even if it'd be 100x more effective than straightforward PvP? Is the WF team at DE even able to make good PvP content like that?

You say it helps if done right, but the issue comes down to one Spartan word: if.

And I'll be honest: I play Warframe as a PvE horde shooter. I hate Conclave. Getting two-shot with a sniper by a guy jumping around the ceiling isn't fun and that's the only part of the whole experience that feels like Warframe. I don't want to be told how good PvP could be for the game, I want to know why I might like it and why I'd want to play it. If your response is "it's just not for you", then congratulations: you've just polished a lump of coal. Most still don't want it.

Also, throwing exclusive loot into the mode isn't going to help, it's just going to "force" people who don't really want to play it to suffer through it for that loot (or quit in that endeavour). That's not good for anyone. The bans against people who've farmed Conclave for that loot is testament.

TL;DR: Instead of telling people how good PvP would be for Warframe if done right, sit down and sell us on some idea that can do it right. The former's a tautology, the latter is progress.

[(XBOX)Heart of Bastet]

After I started playing Warframe for the first time a few days ago, I was told the PVP was barren and tacked on, and I can definitely see why. I don’t think PVP could support a fast and power heavy play style like people employ in PVE. Then mods for Warframes plus their weapons and Sentinels/pets will have to be adjusted too. I play another game where weapon and subclass balance was based on PVP and PVE feedback over the past 3 years, and everyone and everything turned out balanced and just not fun, if the same happened here, I’d be so disappointed it affected a game I started to enjoy.