"power creep" (and rivens" =/= satan.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1) If new weapons and frames aren't at least as good as the stuff we already have access too, what's the point besides mastery rank? If gram, for example, cant compete with the zaw/lesion etc I already have, why should I care? Why is it worth using, why is it worth forma, why is it worth a potato? I'd rather have "power creep" than irrelevant new content. If you didnt have one group of people complaining about powercreep you'd have another group of people complaining about how the new stuff isnt worth using, and along with that, de would probably notice people not using plat for things like potatoes and forma for the things they decided aren't worth using.

Are the kit-guns gonna be good enough to compete with say, akstilleto prime, atomos etc? Because if not pass. If yes, people are gonna complain about power creep again.

2) You, as a player, have total control over how powerful you are, or aren't. Nobody is forcing you to use top-tier primed mod/riven etc loadouts. If you have invested the time to make yourself literally as powerful as the game mechanics will allow I think you SHOULD be overpowered. Think playing as mesa is too easy? Get rid of primed flow. And regular flow. And efficiency. Make peacemaker last like 5 seconds if that feels "balanced" to you. See where I'm going with this? Maybe worry about playing how you want to play rather than acting like de is obligated to force the entire player base to play the way you want to.

3) what is the sudden salt overload with rivens lately? Maybe the intent of the riven dispo STARTED as a way to balance out "the meta" but I think it's obvious that ship has sailed. It's been over 600 days since dispo was updated. December 2016. The riven market makes money for de. That money supports the game for everybody including people who never touch them and we have some people saying things like "lol I cant wait for tiberon dispo to get nerfed the tears and such". Like they actually want players financially supporting de to feel screwed over.

TLDR: power creep is not the devil. Allowing players the choice to be "overpowered" or not is better than not having the choice. Not everyone wants the same playstyle. 

TLDR part II: rivens aren't the devil.

[Yatazanami]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

1) If new weapons and frames aren't at least as good as the stuff we already have access too, what's the point besides mastery rank? If gram, for example, cant compete with the zaw/lesion etc I already have, why should I care? Why is it worth using, why is it worth forma, why is it worth a potato? I'd rather have "power creep" than irrelevant new content. If you didnt have one group of people complaining about powercreep you'd have another group of people complaining about how the new stuff isnt worth using, and along with that, de would probably notice people not using plat for things like potatoes and forma for the things they decided aren't worth using.

Are the kit-guns gonna be good enough to compete with say, akstilleto prime, atomos etc? Because if not pass. If yes, people are gonna complain about power creep again.

2) You, as a player, have total control over how powerful you are, or aren't. Nobody is forcing you to use top-tier primed mod/riven etc loadouts. If you have invested the time to make yourself literally as powerful as the game mechanics will allow I think you SHOULD be overpowered. Think playing as mesa is too easy? Get rid of primed flow. And regular flow. And efficiency. Make peacemaker last like 5 seconds if that feels "balanced" to you. See where I'm going with this? Maybe worry about playing how you want to play rather than acting like de is obligated to force the entire player base to play the way you want to.

3) what is the sudden salt overload with rivens lately? Maybe the intent of the riven dispo STARTED as a way to balance out "the meta" but I think it's obvious that ship has sailed. It's been over 600 days since dispo was updated. December 2016. The riven market makes money for de. That money supports the game for everybody including people who never touch them and we have some people saying things like "lol I cant wait for tiberon dispo to get nerfed the tears and such". Like they actually want players financially supporting de to feel screwed over.

TLDR: power creep is not the devil. Allowing players the choice to be "overpowered" or not is better than not having the choice. Not everyone wants the same playstyle. 

TLDR part II: rivens aren't the devil.

TLDR part III : Rivens arent the devil , they're Lucifer incarnate .

Spoiler

i just saved you 5mns of your life lol

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Yatazanami

[dEjAvU5566]

Nope, power creep is satan.

No need to explain.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 9 minutes, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA a dit :

 why should I care?

That's what I think while reading this. 

You play Warframe for the powercreep. I play Warframe for Warframe. We won't get along. 

[ConzyFTW]

At this point rivens are the only thing I have to do in warframe that I enjoy, making a new weapon specifically for a riven you just picked up, rolled or found is amazingly satisfying. 

Likewise, no weapons really need to have their disposition nerfed, as long as the game doesn’t insentivise end game or high level missions with objectively harder enemies, the game will always be a cake walk where rivens aren’t needed for any content.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

That's what I think while reading this. 

You play Warframe for the powercreep. I play Warframe for Warframe. We won't get along. 

I play warframe for warframe. If you think making yourself stronger isnt a central element of the game I dont know how much fun you're gonna have with it.

[Obviousclone]

You fail to understand that power is relative and whenever you make something that upsets the balance in power, you invalidate the existence of older content.

 

What's the point of using the sonicor if the atomos/asktiletto primes exist? All it exists now is to be mastery fodder that most players will skip. Which means the time DE spent working on that piece of content is now completely wasted.

 

If you play for powercreep, if you're okay with powercreep, then you hate the game at it's core because you don't want to play what the game has to offer, you'd rather see that content be rendered obsolete in favor of playing to the meta.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

1 minute ago, Obviousclone said:

Which means the time DE spent working on that piece of content is now completely wasted.

Yeah, and if new content is inferior to old content, then the new content is a waste of time.

New content that's stronger than old content > old content that's stronger than new content. Ideally, new content should be equal but different and not just better, but powercreep is better than irrelevant weapons that DE can't profit from. Powercreep only invalidates things when new content is designed around the powercreep, if not, then your old gear is just as good as it always has been and will be, barring reworks like melee 3.0.

[Loza03]

The big problem with power creep I see is that we're fighting enemies designed for the level 30-50 range at levels 100+

Sure, they're not invincible, but at those levels, large numbers of extremely high-damage mooks roam the areas. Meaning that the meta becomes closer and closer to being necessary to survive. Everything's at the damage level of a 'high priority target', so using playstyles other than screen-nukes or turtling behind cover become too risky to maintain without being oneshot.

In the discussion of our power creep, enemy power creep needs to be looked at. There's two sides to every conflict, and both need to be well designed for the game to be fun.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 29 minutes, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA a dit :

If you think making yourself stronger isnt a central element of the game I dont know how much fun you're gonna have with it.

I've been playing casualy for 3 years and a half with over 3.8k hours (Steam), and I still enjoy it a lot. I enjoy using the weapons I like, the frames I like, the builds I like, and guess what? I barely have any Arcane. My rivens are medium at best. My builds are basic and rarely use Blind Rage, and even if they do, it's rank 8, like most of my uncommon+ mods. I mainly use my Sobek, Stradavar, Tenora, Burston Prime, Dex Furis, Viper Wraith, Furis, Dex Dakras, 2 Zaws (one Mewan Sword and on Plague Keewar Staff) and my trusty Jat Kitty. I say "mainly" because I also use many others that I like using from time to time with certain frames. 

If you only play Warframe for the powercreep, then you're gonna be bored waaaay before me. Why? Because I take the time to appreciate the game as a whole, and not just as a "click to see high numbers and colors" thing. 

il y a 14 minutes, Obviousclone a dit :

If you play for powercreep, if you're okay with powercreep, then you hate the game at it's core because you don't want to play what the game has to offer, you'd rather see that content be rendered obsolete in favor of playing to the meta.

  

Edited September 26, 2018 by Blade_Wolf_16

[Tiltskillet]

I think the more natural analog would be  Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, or Mighty Gozer the Gozerian, so yeah.

[Zi-Sui]

I'm kinda split between this. On the one hand, power creep is nice. It's satisfying to be able to breeze through the content. On the other hand, I also like challenges, like Ambulas sortie with radiation hazard.

I don't think we need any more power creep. Isn't there any middle ground where the new weapons wouldn't be much more powerful than the old ones but still powerful enough to be used instead of them in certain situations?

Rivens seem actually good for this, only if DE changes their disposition 3-4 times a year or more often. They are rare enough and would boost the less used weapons enough to compete, which wss their original purpose.

[SastusBulbas]

I beleive most frames and weapons in Warframe are simply used to increase MR, they get leveled to 30 then sold and forgotten.

 

 

[Veridian]

Yes, rivens aren't the devil. More like Brutus. They were meant to break the meta, not enforce it. E.G. Lanka for Eidolons, Tiberon, Pyrana, now Gram for melee...etc.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Ver1dian

[(PSN)robotwars7]

my, that's quite a rant.

what if I told you that it's possible to enjoy ALL the weapons in warframe? the weaker ones used by hipsters, the strongest ones used by meatheads, and everything in-between. what if I told you that you can have fun without needing to see large numbers, but still appreciate them when they do appear, and occasionally build for them without conforming to the meta permanently?

 

[Toran]

1. Fashion is Endgame. Not for everybody but some (especially with no real challenge at hand). For me Gram could be the most powerful melee in the game, it's still not my thing - thanks for the 3,000 affinity though. Warframe is all about overpower and there are tons of ways to achieve it. A power creep to a new contender hardly matters, who cares if I kill a grineer with 120% damage over his health or 5,000%? I like new weapons with a twist like Phantasma (somehow I die a bit more often lately).
2. Sounds a bit like self-inflicted wounds and as those like not too much fun. I'd prefer if the game itself had more challenging content. Some ideas: predetermined loadouts for challenge missions, skill-related challenges (e.g. only headshots count), selectable mission modificators. Special rewards for particular hard challenges in form of cosmetics (e.g. badges, regalia, ribbons or ship deco etc.).
3. It's but a new trend. The forum is in no way representative of the player base, the vast majority don't give an F about the forum or balance.

   vor 6 Stunden schrieb Obviousclone:

   If you play for powercreep, if you're okay with powercreep, then you hate the game at it's core because you don't want to play what the game has to offer, you'd rather see that content be rendered obsolete in favor of playing to the meta.

   Whenever I read such nonsense or the cry for "balance" (in a coop horde shooter...) I feel like punching someone... really hard. Overpower is the core of Warframe, always was and probably always will be. Warframe is Dynasty Warriors in Space. Most of the time you can turn off your brain while vaporizing hordes of equally mindless enemies. The game has over 300 weapons, a vast part is already obsolete by your personal loadout choice. For someone else it's a different choice. The questionable power creep is but marginal as overkill is already the standard, overkilling a bit more is just a variety. 
   
   Lacking other challenges, for some going along with the power creep and achieving new damage peaks is but a sport.
   
   Same goes for Riven Mods: they offer more variety, not only in terms of overpower but changing a weapon's characteristic. Flight Speed, Recoil and Zoom can open up interesting new ways (I wish there was a modifier for spread too). Have fun with a "streaming" Supra Vandal, or a rail-gun Pyrana or a max spread/range CC Blast-Ignis.
   
   TLDR:
   I agree with the OP. Rivens ain't the Devil. In a game that revolves in so many ways around Overkill, Rivens and Power Creep are but varieties by now.
   
   And who's the Devil, anyway? In the game "Killing in the name of" God leads by trillions...

[Xgomme]

When you have the choice to create new mechanics and gameplay, new gimmicks and things you can build around. But you create a bunch of easy powercreep that erase the usefulness of older weapons. It's bad, and it's the same problem you talked about with "new weapons being weaker than X or Y so they're useless MR fodders" but in the opposite way. When a new powercreep is out, the old one is useless. But if both had a real gameplay difference and speciality, both would be playable.

[novalery]

2 hours ago, SastusBulbas said:

I beleive most frames and weapons in Warframe are simply used to increase MR, they get leveled to 30 then sold and forgotten.

 

 

Unless you are a hoarder.... most of my weapons and all of my frames are still in the arsenal. I almost never sell a weapon for the slot. I’ve sold the free excal once, for the purpose of building an excal that i farm from ambulas.

As for riven, I’m one of those players who choose to used a weapon based on the mechanic or sound or visual.. So for example: i like using the zenith rifle because of its sound. Then i got a riven for it that increase the fire rate, making it sounds even more awesome... i dont really invested much into the riven stat. So for me Its not the better star weapons that s important. But does it feels great (sound, visual)

[rune_me]

3 hours ago, Toran said:

Whenever I read such nonsense or the cry for "balance" (in a coop horde shooter...) I feel like punching someone... really hard.

What's wrong with crying for balance? In a coop horde shooter? 

You can call it nonsense all you want, but truth is, it makes perfect sense. It is in fact the most sensible thing said in this thread so far.

In my opinion, of course. Feel free to feel like punching someone hard. Doesn't really change my opinion.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

2 hours ago, Xgomme said:

When a new powercreep is out, the old one is useless.

Useless to the min-maxers*

The old powercreep will be just as powerful as it has always been, barring explicit changes to the weapon(s) in question. If your weapon kills enemies in two hits, it will still kill enemies in two hits. If the new weapon kills enemies in two hits, your weapon will still kill enemies in two hits. You can keep using your weapon if you prefer it, it's not weaker than it was when it was the current powercreep, so if it was effective then it's effective now.

The difference between old powercreep being stronger than new powercreep or vice versa is that if the new weapons are weaker, people stick to their old weapons. If the new weapons are stronger, more people will flock to them. For the Devs, that means more potential income from people straight-up just buying them, and for the players it means a change of pace, even if it's just a new visual.

New gear should be better than old gear or equal but different. The former is better than nothing.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Useless to the min-maxers*

The old powercreep will be just as powerful as it has always been, barring explicit changes to the weapon(s) in question. If your weapon kills enemies in two hits, it will still kill enemies in two hits. If the new weapon kills enemies in two hits, your weapon will still kill enemies in two hits. You can keep using your weapon if you prefer it, it's not weaker than it was when it was the current powercreep, so if it was effective then it's effective now.

The difference between old powercreep being stronger than new powercreep or vice versa is that if the new weapons are weaker, people stick to their old weapons. If the new weapons are stronger, more people will flock to them. For the Devs, that means more potential income from people straight-up just buying them, and for the players it means a change of pace, even if it's just a new visual.

New gear should be better than old gear or equal but different. The former is better than nothing.

That's sadly not how it works in reality.

In reality, it goes like this. 1) old weapons kills enemies in 2 hits. 2) power creep is introduced, and now a weapon kills enemies in 1 hit. 3) people start complaining that the game is too easy now. 4) harder content is introduced where new weapons now require 2 hits to kill enemies. 5) Old weapon requires 4-5 hits to kill enemies in this new content. 6) power creep is introduced that can kill new content enemies in 1 hit. 7) people start complaining that the new content is too easy now. And so on and on. Making the old weapons more and more useless with each passing cycle. 

The Vulkar may be as powerful as it's always been, but you don't see anyone bringing it to an Eidolon fight. Why would you, when you have a Vectis Prime or a Lanka? That's the problem with power creep, and why it should be avoided. Because it either makes old weapons fall more and more behind, or developers keep creating content where those old weapons are still useful, leaving players complaining about lack of difficult content. Power creep is always a loose-loose situation.

[Gremlin]

There's that ridiculous 'limit yourself' argument again. Why would I play to get stuff if I'm choosing specifically not to use it? I mean, the game is cool and all, but if I'm playing just to shoot poor AI enemies, those thousands of hours of playtime would've stopped before hitting 100. The game is just boring if you aren't working towards a showable result. We just want a reason to be able to use our maxed out stuff, why would it be included if there was no reason to use it. It's like DE is offering us a ferrari and forcing us to drive 20 miles under the speed limit.

[Damocles]

OP's 3 points are true, DE constantly does experiments on us like releasing onslaught to see what exploits we would use, veldt to see how we would react, in fact PoE was one big social experiment to see how we take open world concepts. So when veldt got trashed on, DE knew that moving on, things had to have a hierarchy, which means reasonable power creep increments over time, at the cost of other aspects, like range and speed (for those who haven't noticed yet)

On that subject, often things have trade off, like his example, Mesa's OP 4 with a sacrifice to efficiency and energy consumption. Of course they can be compensated for by using mods, which means you are giving mod slots for other things like range, duration and power strength. Gram gives up speed/range for crit/status, tiberon gives up full auto for crit or gives up crit for status, etc. Everything is a trade off, and depending on what you value, you may not agree what is overpowered.

Lastly the riven market is a big plat pool for DE. Salty players who are given this plat barrier to entry want nerf to invalidate the richer veterans. If you analyze this from a neutral perspective, the problem is the 1/5 disposition weapons out there. Their rivens amount to nothing compared to removing the riven itself for a mod slot to put in a primed mod. 1/5 literally doesn't amount to much, so the real direction is buffing those dispositions instead. (For melee, range and scalable damage is king. Gram has 2m range but highly scalable damage. It's not OP, it's simply the trade off it makes)

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Lastly the riven market is a big plat pool for DE. Salty players who are given this plat barrier to entry want nerf to invalidate the richer veterans.

Nah, not really. I have a riven for most of the weapons I use. I have a 5 figure plat amount and nothing left to spend it on. And I still want rivens nerfed. Actually, I would prefer they'd be removed all together.

[Damocles]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

Nah, not really. I have a riven for most of the weapons I use. I have a 5 figure plat amount and nothing left to spend it on. And I still want rivens nerfed. Actually, I would prefer they'd be removed all together.

You do realize that the only thing that makes a player feel unique about their accomplishment is the uniqueness of the riven and its concept of variation. There's almost no identical riven out there, and they also serve as a method of breathing possibilities to otherwise statically existing mods. For example, you cannot get more range than +165% since only Primed reach is the sole mod that does so. A riven becomes an exception to that case. The role that riven mods perform is similarly to how other games allow you to replay content with modifiers to keep things interested and unique, like cheat codes and switching characters in those lego console games.