With Mesa Prime coming soon, can you make her "cooler" ?

[Futurehero]

I would like it if Mesa got some ability changes so they can feel more impactful and interesting because I find her extremely lame. Considering how over the top the gunplay is in Warframe,  she doesn't do anything interesting with gunplay. 

So, the key issues I have are:

• Her abilities look underwhelming.   Compare her to Rhino, whose 2 and 3 do similar things and they just look better and give you clear feedback when you cast them. Mesa gets.... a little sparkling ball of light around her and gets a slight change in tint?   For an even broader comparison, look at what Overwatch is doing. Dva can shoot bullets out of the sky with her guns,  Reaper can do 360 full-auto fire with shotgun pistols, even Soldier 76's aimbot ultimate looks more interesting than Peacemaker. And one that note...
• Peacemaker gets lame-er with every patch.   So Mesa was initially supposed to be the gun-kata frame, and yet, her gun-kata ability gets less and less interesting  as time passes. She went from 360 killing , to only killing in a small cone in front of her, to even losing the cool animations and poses she has with her Augment.  At this point, she's just pointing two extremely weak looking pistols vaguely at her enemies while they drop dead. It's one of the lamest ultimates in the game when you consider Nova charges enemies with Antimatter and causes them to explode. It's not even unique anymore since Titania also gets a pair of unique pistols with her ultimate.  This game has so many cool things to do with its gunplay, why is Peacemaker so lame?
• Yeah, she still needs a kit overhaul   Her passive is some behind-the-scenes minor stat boost (that I bet some Mesa players don't even know what it does). Her 1 is useless, and her 2 and 3 are buffs that you just cast around the clock whenever they go out. Also, a mentioned in my first point, they look bad as well. Go play Bayonetta or Devil May Cry to get an idea how over-the-top gun fighting should look and feel.  

When you take into consideration that Mesa is one of the top DPS frames in the game she should not be this mediocre in her design. She's sharing the spot with Equinox who has two different forms and bleeds enemies to death with force of will alone, and Saryn who melts enemies with poison.  This is not what a gunplay focused warframe should play like

Edited October 7, 2018 by Futurehero

[Absens]

I agree with some of your points, but there are frames in dire need of change. I do not think Mesa is DE's priority. I believe she is in a good spot.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Absens

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

I think Mesa is a little clunky, but needs some QoL improvements, and her 1 really belongs on a sniper frame, not a moar-dakka one.

Her 2 is very powerful, but it isn't immediately apparent just how much. With it up she can dive into a large group of very high level enemies and kill all of them while they fumble with their guns.

Her 4 is one of the most powerful DPS abilities in the game - I mean, with the right build if Mesa can see it then it's already dead. But she's also a glass cannon with no armour and expensive abilities.

She definitely doesn't need an overhaul - either her 2 or 3 needs to be recastable (ideally both) and her 1 should have a more scaled effect on an entire clip.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

She doesn't need an overhaul, for Christ's sake. Only her Ballistic Battery could use a buff; maybe add all of her cool animations back

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Futurehero said:

When you take into consideration that Mesa is one of the top DPS frames in the game she should not be this mediocre in her design.

Well, there's a justification for a rework I've never heard before.🙃

Anyway, even though I think there's many frames that need more help, I agree with your real points.   What appeal Mesa has for me is  because of the western gunfighter trope, not because her abilities are anything special.  She doesn't get much sympathy in that regard because her damage numbers can be so terrific, but it's still a problem.

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I there are a few things I'd change about Mesa. 

First is her 1. 

I really like @(PS4)robotwars7suggestion. Where her 1 turns into a quick draw single shot from her regs. 

I would also like her gun-kata to work while she's airborn. So while in the air you activate her 4 she would do "bayenetta dmc style" acrobatic moves while she's air born in Peacemaker. 

 

Other than that she's perfect. Has great synergy between her 2, 3, and 4. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[ZodiacShinryu]

4 hours ago, Futurehero said:

Yeah, she still needs a kit overhaul   Her passive is some behind-the-scenes minor stat boost (that I bet some Mesa players don't even know what it does). Her 1 is useless, and her 2 and 3 are buffs that you just cast around the clock whenever they go out.

I am sorry (kind of) to make this a Chroma comment but... really? Chroma's passive is a description of his ability. Mesa at least gets something. Then you can replace "Her" with "His [Chroma]" and you have a statement about Chroma. Ignoring that Mesa actually has a great (functioning) 4th.

Chroma didn't get updated at all on his Prime and if you want to go by points, is in a worse position. Why exactly should Mesa get a look at again?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

She’s not a gun kata frame. She’s a gun slinger. There’s a very big difference between the two.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

6 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

I would also like her gun-kata to work while she's airborn. So while in the air you activate her 4 she would do "bayenetta dmc style" acrobatic moves while she's air born in Peacemaker. 

 

That's a cool idea, but it's also a completely different frame. It's all wrong for her personality. Think western six-shooters-at-noon (or old style 12-steps-turn-and-shoot flintlock duel for her deluxe skin), not Equilibrium.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

She’s not a gun kata frame. She’s a gun slinger. There’s a very big difference between the two.

Yes. This -----^

Mesa doesn't carry a melee weapon (she can, but her health takes a hit), and shattershield is useless against melee - she's all about guns. 

I think a gun-kata frame would have much more of mixed melee focus. Their exhalted weapon would be a gunblade, not pistols. Their defence abilities would work against melee and maybe even closely bound to it (like a high damage shot back whenever they block damage or parry).

 

[Julian_Skies]

I'm... Surprised there's a complaint about her augment animations.

Didn't you notice the afterimages she leaves when moving? Plus the augment isn't even that useful, that's why it's an exilus.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

That's a cool idea, but it's also a completely different frame. It's all wrong for her personality. Think western six-shooters-at-noon (or old style 12-steps-turn-and-shoot flintlock duel for her deluxe skin), not Equilibrium.

OP said make Mesa cooler.. so that's what I did. 

First let me say I've been maining her since her release. And understand her better than many. 

Mesa is a gunslinger vagabond outcast, says so in her profile video. Her inspiration is any and all references to being a gunslinger vagabond outcast.  That includes any and everything that uses firearms to fight. Such as Bayenetta, DMC, The Old West gunslinger types, Han Solo types and yes even the clerics from Equilibrium. She's a culmination of all of it.

Also fun fact:

It may surprise you but her inspiration for her 4 is from the movie equilibrium the gun-kata. 

(Here is an example of two moves Mesa does quite a bit while in PM.) 

Edited October 8, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

and shattershield is useless against melee

That's why she has her 2. It stops melee enemies from meleeing you. Plus if playing Mesa and  allow a melee enemy to hit you?? Well my friend you need more practice. 

 

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

like a high damage shot back whenever they block damage or parry).

Her SS does reflect damage back to the enemy. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

14 hours ago, Futurehero said:

Mesa is one of the top DPS frames in the game she should not be this mediocre in her design. 

Oh man, now I've seen it all.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

She’s not a gun kata frame. She’s a gun slinger. There’s a very big difference between the two.

Mesa is a culmination of all "gunslinger vagabond outcast" types. That includes any and everything that uses firearms to fight. Such as Bayenetta, DMC, The Old West gunslinger types, Han Solo types and yes even the clerics from Equilibrium. She's a culmination of all of it.

It may surprise you but her inspiration for her 4 is from the movie equilibrium the gun-kata. 

(Here is an example of two moves Mesa does quite a bit while in PM.) 

[xcenic]

a litte tiny buff on mesa will consequently drive DE to an after nerf. The frame is on a good state compared to others like nyx, bansee, wokong, atlas, vauban. i rather let mesa in this actual state, good state and dont drive mesa to a GOD tier frame for a continue nerf and hit the ground. The moment DE nerf mesa to a useless shame and useless frame instead a balance, will be the day im leaving this game.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

31 minutes ago, xcenic said:

The moment DE nerf mesa to a useless shame and useless frame instead a balance, will be the day im leaving this game.

Yup. 

[Axio.]

14 hours ago, Julian_Skies said:

I'm... Surprised there's a complaint about her augment animations.

Didn't you notice the afterimages she leaves when moving? Plus the augment isn't even that useful, that's why it's an exilus.

Actually the reason why it's an Exilus mod is because it's a movement mod like patagium and all the elemental parkour mods.

[(XBOX)rhymes2lyrics]

On 2018-10-07 at 2:26 PM, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

I there are a few things I'd change about Mesa. 

First is her 1. 

I really like @(PS4)robotwars7suggestion. Where her 1 turns into a quick draw single shot from her regs. 

I would also like her gun-kata to work while she's airborn. So while in the air you activate her 4 she would do "bayenetta dmc style" acrobatic moves while she's air born in Peacemaker. 

 

Other than that she's perfect. Has great synergy between her 2, 3, and 4. 

Excuse me this is actually mesa peacemaker way back when she first came out. and yes her first ability should change and her 3rd passive not equipping melee mod will give her health. Melee is so much important in this game. It should change to a weapon recoil since there are a lot of weapons that need it. Steady Hands Anyone? She is a gunslinger after all.

Edited November 3, 2018 by (XB1)rhymes2lyrics

[MickThejaguar]

I don't think a frame needs their kit overhauled just because you think it's doesn't look cool.

[Guest]

She does need nicer anims and effects for casted powers though...

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2018-10-08 at 6:48 AM, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Mesa is a culmination of all "gunslinger vagabond outcast" types. That includes any and everything that uses firearms to fight. Such as Bayenetta, DMC, The Old West gunslinger types, Han Solo types and yes even the clerics from Equilibrium. She's a culmination of all of it.

It may surprise you but her inspiration for her 4 is from the movie equilibrium the gun-kata. 

(Here is an example of two moves Mesa does quite a bit while in PM.) 

Nope

[Loza03]

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎08 at 12:31 PM, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

OP said make Mesa cooler.. so that's what I did. 

First let me say I've been maining her since her release. And understand her better than many. 

Mesa is a gunslinger vagabond outcast, says so in her profile video. Her inspiration is any and all references to being a gunslinger vagabond outcast.  That includes any and everything that uses firearms to fight. Such as Bayenetta, DMC, The Old West gunslinger types, Han Solo types and yes even the clerics from Equilibrium. She's a culmination of all of it.

Also fun fact:

It may surprise you but her inspiration for her 4 is from the movie equilibrium the gun-kata. 

(Here is an example of two moves Mesa does quite a bit while in PM.) 

I've played both Bayonetta and Devil May Cry extensively - all the games in both series, including DMC2, the reboot and even 8-bit Bayonetta if  that counts, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Dante and Bayo are very, very different to Cowboy and Han Solo types. Dante's about crazy action that goes everywhere, stylish tricks and general mayhem. Bayo's about domination, physical, mental and yes, sexual. Cowboys are about focus and quick, efficient movement - that's why peacemaker has that whole 'shoot in the ring' thing. Sure, she styles a bit whilst firing, but nowhere near to the levels that Dante and Bayo do things.

I'd love to see a 'stylish action' frame in the DMC or Bayonetta vein, but Mesa's not it.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

can say without a shadow of a doubt that Dante and Bayo are very, very different to Cowboy and Han Solo types.

You are not paying attention. They all have something in common. Mesa.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Dante's about crazy action that goes everywhere, stylish tricks and general mayhem. Bayo's about domination, physical, mental and yes, sexual. Cowboys are about focus and quick, efficient movement - that's why peacemaker has that whole 'shoot in the ring' thing. Sure, she styles a bit whilst firing, but nowhere near to the levels that Dante and Bayo do things.

Mesa is a AMALGAMATE of all "gunslinger vagabond outcast types" whilst be Vash, Dante, Bayo, Han, Old West Gunslingers, Clerics..She is DEs culmination of all of it. 

They are all stylish and use firearms for much of the fighting they do just like Mesa. And some even have Magical abilities like Mesa. 

But you say Mesa is only "Cowboy" inspired? 

What Cowboy can reflect bullets, and projectiles (like missles) back to thier attackers using a magical force field? 

What Cowboy can jam attackers weaponry just by being near them? 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

but nowhere near to the levels that Dante and Bayo do things.

Well that's just silly, of course not. That would be WAY to Overpowered! Come on man. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Teridax68]

I don't think Mesa's really first in line to need a rework, as her kit largely works quite well with itself and is largely seen as fun to play, but I agree that there's room for improvement. As it stands, her kit has one ability that's truly engaging to use, namely her 4, and otherwise just has 3 buffs. Thoughts on her current kit:

• Her passive I think is okay. It could probably be turned into something a bit more interesting, such as having Mesa automatically disarm/jam enemy weapons while aiming at them, but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't get changed, imo.
• Ballistic Battery is one of the abilities on Mesa that gets hardly used, but that I think could be improved significantly with just a few tweaks. For one, having the damage accumulation be a permanent passive, rather than a thing one has to activate, would remove a large part of the hassle tied to the ability, and removing its caps would also allow it to scale to a sufficient degree. Additionally, having the active draw from only a portion of this damage pool, but draw exponentially larger amounts when pressed repeatedly without being expended, could allow the player to manage this resource a lot better, and be able to decide between one big gunshot, or multiple smaller empowered shots.
• Shooting Gallery has this unique propagation mechanism, but I have to agree is a buff that doesn't carry much gameplay. It may be better for her fantasy if she could consistently disable enemies she's about to shoot, e.g. by slowing enemies in front of her and creating weak spots to hit for increased damage, RDR-style.
• Shatter Shield is one of those abilities that I think is incredibly strong, not to mention useful (it's a major reason why Mesa is so strong and viable at higher levels in the first place), but that otherwise isn't all that inherently fun or interactive. It's just a button you press to become near-invincible for a duration, and the bullet reflection itself is practically worthless. Personally, I think it'd be more interesting if the ability drastically slowed enemy projectiles around Mesa, and allowed them to be shot out of the air, instead of simply turning her into a tank. She could still remain a very survivable frame, with emphasis on protection against ranged attacks, but would be able fulfil that fantasy in a way that'd be more interactive than just a simple button press, and could allow her allies to benefit from the effects as well.
• I personally like Peacemaker, and from the looks of it so do several other players. Perhaps the animations could use some more pizzazz, but the gameplay at this point is probably the healthiest it's ever been, as her previous 360 noscope room-clearing meant she did a lot of killing without all that much player participation. I wouldn't change it too much in its current form, besides maybe giving Mesa the option to use it in mid-air, but I would perhaps also add a central reticle that would deal increased damage to whatever it's directly aligned with. Coupled with the above suggested change to Shooting Gallery, which would create weak spots, this could reward Mesa much more for more precise aiming, which is currently not that big a part of her playstyle, outside of synergy with some weapons like the Dual Toxocyst.

Overall, while there are some gun-kata elements to Mesa, I think she mostly satisfies the cowboy/sharpshooter fantasy, in that she excels at standing on the other side of a shootout from her opponents, and lining them up before taking them all down. She does that pretty well now, but she could definitely do that in a more interesting manner, i.e. by actually manipulating enemies, projectiles and the battlefield to reflect her fantasy, instead of simply pressing buttons to apply generic buffs to herself.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Teridax68

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

You are not paying attention. They all have something in common. Mesa.

Mesa is a AMALGAMATE of all "gunslinger vagabond outcast types" whilst be Vash, Dante, Bayo, Han, Old West Gunslingers, Clerics..She is DEs culmination of all of it. 

They are all stylish and use firearms for much of the fighting they do just like Mesa. And some even have Magical abilities like Mesa. 

But you say Mesa is only "Cowboy" inspired? 

What Cowboy can reflect bullets, and projectiles (like missles) back to thier attackers using a magical force field? 

What Cowboy can jam attackers weaponry just by being near them? 

Well that's just silly, of course not. That would be WAY to Overpowered! Come on man. 

But Dante, Bayo and similar protagonists can't do any of those things either. So, by that logic, mesa's not based on them or that style either.

I say she's cowboy inspired by the scenarios she can create. One of the most enduring images of the Cowboy is the cowboy standing in a street devoid of civilians, his opponents ahead of him. A quiet moment without gunfire, followed by a surge of movement as the two sides race to make the first shot. As opposed to Dante and Bayo, who's fighting styles are floods of constant movement. 

Since Warframe doesn't allow for quiet standoffs under regular conditions, Mesa's abilities are built to engineer a scenario that's close enough. Normally, constant movement is a necessity in Warframe, but Mesa's kit lets her stand still, having that moment of quiet before she draws her Regulators and guns everyone down.

And I did some research of my own. As it turns out, there's a scene from a rather famous movie where a Cowboy pulls the kind of moves Mesa uses, right down to gun spinning. It's got harsh language, which the forums aren't too fond of to my knowledge, so I won't imbed it. But, for reference, it's from the original 'True Grit' and on youtube, the clip goes under the name "Bold talk for a one-eyed fat man."