Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[CoolDudeMcCool]

I'm just astonished that I haven't seen anyone else suggest buffing threat levels - the option for Fortuna to literally increase your difficulty on the fly - to be more challenging. Make them last throughout an entire bounty unless you hack something to shut them down, make them immune to damage and require pressing the use key to shut off, but let them stick around longer before going off to give people extra time, since they can't do it at range. Make it so if all four beacons activate at the same time, they gain the old damage numbers. It's easy to come up with ideas for the new mechanic that's literally for what people want.

I'm not against giving people harder content. I'm against making everyone face that harder content whether they want to or not. That's why my suggestion again and again is the option to get the challenge that people want, but not to force it on others, like asking for the nerf to be reverted is doing. Wanting harder content is one thing, being disconnected from the community as a whole and thinking that most players agree with you or can handle that harder content is another thing. Or maybe it's just not caring about others.

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, Arc2199 said:

YES! I CONCUR !

Finally, something we agree on. 😛

I will say, I do like how DE made the enemies in Orb Vallis in general, stats notwithstanding, compared to Plains of Eidolon. Almost every enemy has unique abilities that distract and disorient the players, and some of the larger opponents have ways to better protect themselves such as the Jackal's front shield or the raknoid miniboss overshield buff. The alert level system was also a nice touch.

I really think DE should take what they learned here and apply it to the rest of the game.

[Ailyene]

12 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

I don't think they said anything about a roll back. They said something along the lines of just adding elite units. I doubt it will be as good as before if those units spawn 20mins in at alert level 4.

Actually they did say:

"They'll hit harder again and be a bit harder to kill as well." - Steve at around 38:54 in the stream.

[Spectre-8]

1 minute ago, Ailyene said:

Actually they did say:

"They'll hit harder again and be a bit harder to kill as well." - Steve at around 38:54 in the stream.

I can see the Rhino Inaros squads from a mile away , was this Mag there ? oh nvm it's Nidus . Moving on.

[BlackPanda39]

Le ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2018 à 11:28, 541K4T a dit :

Before Nerf,

After Nerf

That exactly how it's feel now, I Just stop playing Fortuna after this hotfix. It just a big pile of grind now. 

[seprent]

6 minutes ago, BlackPanda39 said:

It just a big pile of grind now. 

*insert all of warframe farming explained in one picture jpg here*

[Arniox]

On 2018-11-14 at 8:20 PM, Boondokz said:

Don't get me wrong I understand that DE wants new players to be able to experience everything and not get discouraged, but will it ever stop coming at the expense of the fun for veterans? With the release of Fortuna I thought I had finally found my new love in the form of base raiding. Enemies hit luck trucks and ramped up to high levels extremely fast. It became intense and therefor fun. How many toroids could you farm up before your team became overwhelmed and then have to sprint to the exit, mount up, and dash away. This was an amazing prospect. Instead DE nerfs the damage that the enemies do, lower the ramp speed (may be observer bias there), and decrease spawn rates. No longer is it an intense battle where you have to play smart if you want your rewards. Instead it has become yet another boring farm session. If you want the intense gameplay you have to wait an extremely long time.

 

So some might argue that Arbitration already fills this roll. To that I would have to disagree. It is the same old experience we have always had except slower as rewards take twice as long. Bring the same old set up you always would and then just wait 40 wave, 40 minutes, ext. and you will get a slight boost in challenge. It may be because the new enemies added out on Orb Vallis just havent been 100% figured out yet that supplied some of the uniqueness, but nerfing them so they are simple as any old enemy seems like veterans are being neglected. I was so happy that there was some "end game content" now it is a walk in the park, where the only reason to leave is something glitches and you are afraid of the WF Crash.

 

I hope when the spider tanks are released the challenge is restored to some extent, and it IS NOT just another operator gimmick. I still love Warframe, only I wish that everything wasn't tuned to be super casual. I expect to get some hate for this post in all honesty, but understand this is partially a knee jerk response to how much I loved base raiding compared to now.

I agree with this. 

It's what's been boring me alot for a very long time. 

For new players they might not understand the concept, but as a vet, and many others can agree: when you have everything, EVERY mission in the entire game is piss easy. There is 0 challenge to be found ANYWHERE right now. And since I'm not farming for anything specific, just more weapons and the occasional frame, this repetitive, unimaginative, boring, easy game play loop no longer becomes worth it.

Recently I've just been fu**ing around and running public prime farms with vaulted relics to share out my stuff. 

I've gotten so bored though that I have still have a heap of og relics... 

[Lordmotav]

No. A veteran player like me doesn't have a need to buy platinum, a new player does. There will always be a need to cater to new players, they have a higher chance and higher need to make platinum purchases.

Besides, I don't mind the not balls to the wall difficult content being added. They tried that with raids and it just alienated new players and old ones from experiencing it together and it forced you into meta builds for only the meta frames. Nobody wanted to bring new people because they just wanted the end reward asap and because it was hard enough to where you couldn't go in and experience it and have fun. As a consequence like, less than 5% of the player base ever even bothered. What a waste of all that development time.

 

We have sorties and arbitrations for our hard content. And if that's too easy we can just gimp ourselves for a challenge. God forbid we give new players a lot of elbow room to have more fun in. Granted I don't want them doing anything in Fortuna either but that's because I know it's bad for them progression wise. Totally locking it off until you've got end game meta frames and rivens is kinda dumb.

 

If you're upset at the lack of challenge maybe it's because you've finally hit the end of your progression. There's nowhere else to go, so if you're not having fun anymore just by playing the game then maybe you need a break from it.

[Arniox]

On 2018-11-14 at 11:08 PM, Nihil501 said:

Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

Plus if you compare the same level enemy on Plains to a same level enemy on Vallis.....the corpus guys are hitting much harder and have much more skills. So in that point....a nerf was totally justified.

If you want more challenge, take the highest bounty....don't even have to finish it....do what you want, the enemies will scale all over Vallis to that bounty. And start raiding bases.....after a high enough alert level, good luck.

You missunderstand how fu**ing piss easy even that is for a vet. 

There is NOTHING in the entire game anymore that challenges me. And it's boring as hell. 

What I'd personally love is a setting that allows you to scale up enemy spawns based on your choice. If I go solo, the enemy spawn count is so low I've actually feel asleep at my desk, woken my self up, alt-f4 and played something else. It's so boring. 

And when you have 4 players the spawn count s finally a little challenging, but there's now 4 super overpowered players killing things so it's the same level of difficulty. 

I want to scale it up 10 or 20 times for solo, or 50 times in squads. I want to be Swamped HARD cause then finally I would feel challenged 

[Peter]

Today you guys are harvesting what you planted crying for nerfs everywhere, I am not surprised by the result.

[ZackNeutron]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

Today you guys are harvesting what you planted crying for nerfs everywhere, I am not surprised by the result.

OMG.. 

If only I can up vote this hundred times. 

[Ailyene]

"Sorry about that, I measure strength in meters, so I can't discern differences of a millimeter or two." - Shalltear

More describes my own experience, before nerf/after nerf/level 125 it all felt the same.  I don't really mind this though since I'm just here to collect Floofs and understand Part I of Fortuna is just getting the content to where it won't explode and burn (for weeks) like PoE did on launch before releasing the more serious stuff.

I think its pretty much impossible to challenge veteran players by just adding numbers when we have many frames/options like Mesa that can get 99%+ damage reduction and do the damage of 20 Opticors going off at once per second with 100% accuracy.  Only solutions that come to my mind for this are forced damage gating mechanics, mechanical gimmicks, and power nullification that the community hates so I'm glad I'm not a developer.

Anyways looking back at the stream again they probably were just talking about more elites like Kyta Raknoid and not actually turning back the damage nerfs by that quote.  Also AI upgrades, maybe Terra Plasmor Crewman will finally get the memo his 15m range shotgun is not a sniper rifle that should be used from 100m away.

I'll be looking forward to what comes out with the Orb Mothers, they say it won't be a DPS race like with the Eidolons and be much more involved.  Sounds like fun.

 

And to all the people complaining about ramp up time, you can already get level capped mobs within 15 minutes after reaching Alert level 4 while having an active T5 Bounty.  At least the past 3~4 times I've done it its never taken longer than that.

 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

This again...

Why is it everytime DE makes challenging content with Veterans in mind that content goes unplayed/avoided & hated like the plague?

Kuva Survival, Elite Onslaught, & Arbitrations are recent topics.

Vets asked for a mode that would push them to the brink, couldn't be easily played endlessly, & would let them see just how far their loadouts would go.

DE adds Elite Onslaught.

Veterans ask for gameplay that is unforgiving & makes lives matter.

DE adds Arbitrations.

Veterans ask for enemies that can't be easily dispatched by Warframe powers & etc.

DE adds Combas, Nullifiers, etc.

Yet all of the above are hated for their difficulty or some reason which basically results in the fact DE listened & gave folks what they asked for.

So now Veterans want Fortuna to be inaccessible to players until what is essentially post War Within minimum.

This would KILL the Fortuna update & be nothing but Destiny 2 level bad press for DE.

Ironically, I wanted Fortuna to be on Neptune or Pluto in the first place anyways... (Had it been on those planets enemy difficulty would make sense.)...you know an actual ICE world, not the literal hottest planet in the Solar system.........

I digress...

Second planet or not. A level 10 enemy in Orb Vallis was equal to a level 30+ enemy. That is definitely a bug or very bad design. It was not intentional on DE's part obviously.

Do vets now want bugs to be left untouched if it makes the game harder for them?

In the long run those enemies would push more players away than it would retain. No new players = a dead game.

(Seriously, look at D2 & even after a wonderful expac its bleeding players & pushing new players away because of the focus taken. It didn't break even in sales, & now the game is facing population issues yet again because too many systems in it are extremely new player unfriendly & punishing.)

Imagine being told that you have to come back to experience Fortuna AFTER you've cleared the Star Chart, farmed decent mods, frames, & etc.

You'd go to another game.

I'm not defending so much as just being cut & dry with this.

A bug is a bug. Bugs needs to be fixed. Period.

[Chaemyerelis]

"· After some rebalancing, we’re looking at bringing back more Elite enemies on the Orb Vallis, now we think that enemy level is in a better state."

[Threa]

I'll never agree with "veterans" who say the game is boring unless they're being nearly 1 shot and overwhelmed by enemies and thus making the game "fun and engaging." I respect that playstyle brings you excitement but for players like myself, a more casual veteran, I don't find the idea of feeling so squishy that I feel forced to switch to Mesa or a tank frame conducive to a fun and exciting experience. I loved the nerfs and I hope that the "buffs" they're bringing back make sense because if they don't I won't be playing anymore. I'm tired of so many people wanting every single aspect of this game to be difficult and challenging.

[Threa]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

This again...

Why is it everytime DE makes challenging content with Veterans in mind that content goes unplayed/avoided & hated like the plague?

Kuva Survival, Elite Onslaught, & Arbitrations are recent topics.

Vets asked for a mode that would push them to the brink, couldn't be easily played endlessly, & would let them see just how far their loadouts would go.

DE adds Elite Onslaught.

Veterans ask for gameplay that is unforgiving & makes lives matter.

DE adds Arbitrations.

Veterans ask for enemies that can't be easily dispatched by Warframe powers & etc.

DE adds Combas, Nullifiers, etc.

Yet all of the above are hated for their difficulty or some reason which basically results in the fact DE listened & gave folks what they asked for.

So now Veterans want Fortuna to be inaccessible to players until what is essentially post War Within minimum.

This would KILL the Fortuna update & be nothing but Destiny 2 level bad press for DE.

Ironically, I wanted Fortuna to be on Neptune or Pluto in the first place anyways... (Had it been on those planets enemy difficulty would make sense.)...you know an actual ICE world, not the literal hottest planet in the Solar system.........

I digress...

Second planet or not. A level 10 enemy in Orb Vallis was equal to a level 30+ enemy. That is definitely a bug or very bad design. It was not intentional on DE's part obviously.

Do vets now want bugs to be left untouched if it makes the game harder for them?

In the long run those enemies would push more players away than it would retain. No new players = a dead game.

(Seriously, look at D2 & even after a wonderful expac its bleeding players & pushing new players away because of the focus taken. It didn't break even in sales, & now the game is facing population issues yet again because too many systems in it are extremely new player unfriendly & punishing.)

Imagine being told that you have to come back to experience Fortuna AFTER you've cleared the Star Chart, farmed decent mods, frames, & etc.

You'd go to another game.

I'm not defending so much as just being cut & dry with this.

A bug is a bug. Bugs needs to be fixed. Period.

Thank you for posting this, it summarizes my thoughts as well.

I'm done trying to be PC about elite veterans. They're elitism and entitlement is reaching insane levels. Release after release have been modes that cater to their playstyle and it's never enough. At some point the rest of us casual players are going to be pushed away and as much as elitist veterans would like that, they alone cannot sustain this game. The game needs a variety of both easy and challenging content but the trend, because of how vocal these elitists are becoming, is pushing DE toward hardcore/difficult content and they only need to look at how destructive that's been for other games who went that route to know it is a very bad idea. 

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

Good news is that the new spider boss will be new player friendly , confirmed on stream 🤣

Yes. I got worried when I heard that. All the tease and build-up at "something for veterans" and something big would be quite disappointing if it turned out to be balanced in such a way that takes new players into account. That is, unless Scott was not talking about combat when he said new players could still "participate and help".

Edited November 17, 2018 by Jarriaga

[Lost_Cartographer]

33 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes. I got worried when I heard that. All the tease and build-up at "something for veterans" and something big would be quite disappointing if it turned out to be balanced in such a way that takes new players into account. That is, unless Scott was not talking about combat when he said new players could still "participate and help".

Oh he definitely wasn't.  For one, we probably won't require spoiler form to make it vulnerable, and we probably won't be under a time crunch to beat them, though doubtful they intend for the fight to last longer than 15 minutes (or rather, for someone not to figure out how to take it to under 15 by their lonesome.)  If an MKI Braton will work... eventually... then a it's "newbie friendly."

I'm guessing gun implacements will be a thing though.  Got PLENTY of turrets all over those bases the orbs hang around.

 

But on to the elites and "bringing challenge back," I took that to mean one of two things.  Either they'll keep the Elite Crewman around even through tier 4 alarms and return the elites (overtakers, trenchers) to their original damage values (and make them a little rarer as spawns) OR they'll simply spawn more overtakers and trenchers, but not touch their base damage, because their numbers do get a little... sparse.  Could also mean just a more steady supply of mini orbs, Jackals, and hyenas.

 

Finally, want to take a moment to disparage a few things:

ONE:  Just because it's on Venus, doesn't mean it has to be "easy."  It's got 5 difficulty settings, suggesting it's meant for all levels of play.  Ideally though, tier 3 (20-40) doesn't have enemies that hit like they're level 80 bombards.  Like, that's when things start getting hairy even now if you're not on your toes, before the nerf it was just stupid.

TWO:  Scaling was the culprit here, and I don't think DE can really just make 50-60 hit WAY harder than 5-15, the increases follow a rather exponential if linear path.  Now the guys complaining "they don't hit for jack now!" need to realize that maybe stacking damage mitigation is the source of their problems.  When it comes to Grineer and Infested, you can tack on wide area CC, due to the lack of nullifier bubbles (the only reason tank frames rose to prominence is because of the Corpus.)

THREE:  Most players don't run super ultra META builds, and the reason is simple - they ironically make the game boring easy to play by default.  Doesn't matter how hard the enemy can hit you if you render them either unable to fight at all, or practically render yourself immune to damage.  I can spam radial blind as Excalibur and finish all my foes all day, regardless of their level.  Doesn't mean I'm being challenged, and it's no secret this kind of strat is what those seeking "challenge" do.  Not even to DE.  Not anymore.

That's why all of the "veteran" challenge modes and actually challenging enemies of late have a gimmick or restriction in place, primarily to mess with our room-spanning abilities.

And this all brings us to FOUR:

Even with challenging content, most - what was it, Digital Fighting Elite? - are actually after some kind of exclusive reward to show off their crazy "skill."  Can't have a desirable reward exclusive to modes the majority community consider to require undesirable cheese ball tactics.  There's a reason most people don't frequent the void, or go beyond the first rotation C in an endless.  It's boring, and they don't want to META build and stand in one place, letting the enemy come to them like you see in many veteran videos/streams going for safety and efficiency over excitement in their hours-deep endless run.  Rather, players want to play with equipment they find fun.  I think the only reason sorties are still frequented is because they're a quick series of missions, ultimately.  Cheese for about 15 minutes, get rewarded, go on to do something more entertaining.

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Littleman88

[Genitive]

12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes. I got worried I heard that. All the tease and build-up at "something for veterans" and something big would be quite disappointing if it turned out to be balanced in such a way new players can find a way to make it. That is, unless that Scott was not talking about combat when he said new players could still participate and help.

If the fight includes running around bases and hacking stuff then maybe, but I'm leaning against the idea because it will either be too easy or new/undergeared players will be carried. And complaints about lack of serious endgame will start over.

There is nothing wrong with gating content. If endgame activities are available right out of the gate content will become stale more quickly. Because why should I collect gear and level up mods if I can join a group that will essentially play for me?

If DE want to engage new players into fighting orbs it would be better to add a special kind of mission that would indirectly affect the actual fight. Generate buffs for players or weaken the orbs. Kind of like a community-driven event.

[SenariousNex]

Make a switch that multiplies all levels by 10 and all rewards/drops by 2.  So Vets can fight their level 500s instead of 50s and get a little bit more rewarded for it. Simple and easy, splits newbs and vets so they don't interfere with each other. 

[_JustSomeone_]

So that's why i could easily survive a max level wave of corpus now (i rarely read hotfixes)

As for some saying Venus it's a low level planet, yes it is and i understand that new players have easy acces to it, but the high level bounties 40-60 + feel way to easy now  and therefore difficulty should be increased at least on that range of those levels (reverted to how it was)

Edited November 17, 2018 by _JustSomeone_

[Chaosdreamer]

Well before nerf I was like My Inaros need to move a bit taking all these hits is not good idea ...

after nerf I'm Inaros I'm just God like everywhere else cannot die , can afk in middle of battlefield no problem

so yea no more challenge , the only good thing was for the challenge with target must not lose X% HP

[--PV--Arc]

5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Finally, something we agree on. 😛

I will say, I do like how DE made the enemies in Orb Vallis in general, stats notwithstanding, compared to Plains of Eidolon. Almost every enemy has unique abilities that distract and disorient the players, and some of the larger opponents have ways to better protect themselves such as the Jackal's front shield or the raknoid miniboss overshield buff. The alert level system was also a nice touch.

I really think DE should take what they learned here and apply it to the rest of the game.

YES! I CONCUR WITH THIS AS WELL !

 

It doesn't matter that if certain enemies don't match 100% ditto with their counterparts in other places. Enemies CAN BE UNIQUE ! ENEMIES SHOULD BE UNIQUE ! As much as possible without unsetting the game balance and all.

[--PV--Arc]

5 hours ago, Ailyene said:

Actually they did say:

"They'll hit harder again and be a bit harder to kill as well." - Steve at around 38:54 in the stream.

I thought that was just in relation to the elite units and not the enemies overall.

But if that really is the case then.... #*!% YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[iuki.]

 with 6k hours on steam and 2k hours ingame, I absolutely do not mind DE catering to new players at least for fortuna: it's new content everyone should be able to enjoy, not just the vets.

Edited November 17, 2018 by iuki.