As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[Mach25]

I mostly don't bother reading other's quotes and responses to me on these forums -  just putting that out there.

On to the subject at hand:

8 hours ago, RacerDelux said:

I am unsure how long you have been playing, but endurance runs were literally the game for quite a while

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

See that word I bolded? To quote a favorite movie of mine..."I do not think it means what you think it means."

Agreed. I disagree with that turn of language - using "literally" in that manner makes you sound ill-educated and as though you would use the word, "Like", like for, like every single sentence, so, like, um, like I totally agree with, like, what you're saying.

Not knocking anyone specifically, but that's something I don't like in society today among the younger generations. By the way, sent you a message in your inbox.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Mach25

[EinheriarJudith]

dont leave out octavia. as much as i like her, that doesnt maker her exempt from the issue. she auto kills a room just by pressing 1 and 4.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

dont leave out octavia.

She's not being left out, it's just that Saryn's the poster child for broken abilities atm.

I think we need to start making a list of Frames and the abilities they have that can easily nuke maps like Hydron and come up with fair solutions that allow for more cooperative gameplay.

As was suggested by another player, I think the majority of AoE nukes need to be restricted so that they can't pass through walls. That was a huge complaint with Radial Javelin way back when and the reasoning for that nerf still applies to a lot of AoE abilities.

4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

as much as i like her, that doesnt maker her exempt from the issue.

I wish more players had the ability to recognize and acknowledge that something is wrong, even when it's something that they're doing. So kudos.

The other day I went and dusted off my Mag on Hydron...and God's teeth is her 3 powerful. 300 or so kills from that alone by Wave 10. For an ability that's supposed to focus on armor and shield stripping, it does a good job at killing stuff up to level 45. And that's just with Intensify, Stretch and Primed Continuity equipped. With Natural Talent slotted and enough energy, I can spam that to my heart's content.

And honestly, that feels wrong.

Edited December 9, 2018 by MirageKnight

[RacerDelux]

9 hours ago, Mach25 said:

Agreed. I disagree with that turn of language - using "literally" in that manner makes you sound ill-educated and as though you would use the word, "Like", like for, like every single sentence, so, like, um, like I totally agree with, like, what you're saying.

Not knocking anyone specifically, but that's something I don't like in society today among the younger generations. By the way, sent you a message in your inbox.

Younger generations? You better be a baby boomer if you are calling me "younger generations". Also ill-educated? I JUST presented a definition. Did I use "literally" previously? No.
I think that like you like need to like rethink like your post. Like. 😃

[Sziklamester]

Basically the game is not balanced at all just there are slight balances and tweaks on items but all of the frames can trivialize the game if you build them right. There are frames with abilities which more effective and can clear rooms efficiently like Nox, Saryn, Ember (low-med) levels. Until the devs does not give a purpose to the game the game will remain unbalanced. There is no challenge in this game, newbies suck with some content, rewards mostly bad and some frame does the job better than the most. Ability wise there are better and weaker frames and sadly that cannot be changed because most of these have roles. 

In a continously changing game the balance is a hardly reachable thing which always meant to be changed. If they nerf the braindead frames then they kill them literally and others will be op. This game could only work if the frames has no abilities at all only just raw stats and look. 

I personally don't mind the unbalanced gameplay if there are options to avoid that or those whom using unbalanced items let you play a little. In a game where is 1 mesa or 1 saryn I am mostly just sit and watch tv basically because I don't have a gear that can repel that.

 

[(PSN)psycofang]

On 2018-12-08 at 4:29 PM, DjAirsurfer said:

like Garuda have comparatively sluggish animations for less power?

Uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh...

[Teridax68]

16 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

She's not being left out, it's just that Saryn's the poster child for broken abilities atm.

This I think is an important point with regards to the disagreements players have been having here. Players aren't complaining about Saryn because they want to only complain about Saryn, and don't see a problem with anyone else, they're complaining about Saryn because she's one of the most egregious examples of a design philosophy that causes many different frames, Saryn included, to cheapen gameplay for their entire team. Whataboutism is all too easy a fallacy to fall into in any sort of game that features different characters players are meant to become attached to, and the more productive mindset here should be to take a comprehensive look at all problem frames, as mentioned above, rather than stonewall discussion of one's pet frame just because others are also being allowed to get away with similar design flaws.

16 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

As was suggested by another player, I think the majority of AoE nukes need to be restricted so that they can't pass through walls. That was a huge complaint with Radial Javelin way back when and the reasoning for that nerf still applies to a lot of AoE abilities.

This I think could solve a large number of problem abilities, though I feel there can also be room for different balancing methods: an ability that can reach enemies through walls but can't kill them on its own, for example, is an ability that could allow a frame to influence a map and set up kills, without necessarily taking them away from their teammates each time. Even an ability that can single-handedly kill enemies through walls could be acceptable, if that ability could only do so infrequently (preferably without implementing a cooldown, though). In general, I think there are three key traits that make a nuke ability problematic: if the ability can a) kill enemies on its own, b) ignore line of sight, and c) be used on-demand with little to no downtime, the end result is an ability that can and will be used to simply eliminate enemies from the map without much interaction from any player, including the one casting the ability. Eliminating even one of these traits would make for a much healthier nuke, and so the trick would be finding which component to take out of each problem nuke to have it become healthier and still work well for the frame in question (Saryn may not want her Spore propagation to rely on line of sight, for example, but may not need to kill enemies with Spores single-handedly either).

[Fallen_Echo]

My brother who is mr 8 doesnt yet have many corrupted mods (espefically for frames he doesnt have any) can nuke hydron with oberons carpet. Does this mean that oberon needs to be nerfed?

Standing still while holding m1 with the soma prime can result in entire rooms being dead, should those be nerfed?

Do i need to explain covert lethality builds what scale infinitely?

This is a casual horde shooter and apart from some frames(limbo), weapons (toxocys and friends) and maybe the movement system everything is as braindead as possible. So if you really dont like ceratain types of casual fun its best if you pre-make your groups.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2018-12-09 at 1:18 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

You hit the nail on the head there. Just because the existing balance sucks and isn't really meeting its targets doesn't mean that DE is trying to balance for endless.

Yes, things are currently skewed enough that practically infinite-length endless runs are possible. No, that does not mean DE intends to balance for endless missions.

If they did, one might expect there to be some actually meaningful rewards set deep into Endless modes.

Yet what do we see in practice? Everything set to be accessible within "bite-sized" sessions rather than 60+ minute long runs. Hmmmm... It's almost as if DE spoke about this particular topic recently when they addressed the possibility of scaling rewards.

Endurance runs are certainly a legitimate way to play the game, and I doubt you'll find many people in favor of removing them or making them outright impossible.

But that doesn't make it appropriate to balance for them.

If players can't handle L200 enemies with the gear that they're given, then tough luck. That means they can't handle L200 enemies (and getting that far might actually be an accomplishment rather than an exercise in staving off boredom). There is no defensible reason why Saryn (or any other Frame, for that matter) "needs" to have damage output capable of downing enemies at that level.

DE only needs to fairly equip players up to the highest levels possible within a single reward rotation of any Endless setup. After that, it's (as I said previously) "just extra."

Just wanted to chime in on this.  DE has expressly stated that they indeed do not balance for things past a certain point.  Though I think you might be making a false equivelance here (if i'm using the term right.)  Just because DE doesn't balance for that point doesn't mean frames shouldn't be capable of handling content beyond that point.  DE recognizes that Warframe is a grind based game.  So in the case of endless missions (which is where most people go to farm a majority of things in the game) they're essentially offering you two ways to play.

You can either hop out once you've hit a full rotation and then re enter.  Or you can stay longer for some better exp/resources and continue to farm but at the cost of harder content.  I think this choice is important and should stay.  It sounds like you're essentially asking for things to only be about the star chart.  (please correct me if i'm wrong.)  You could argue that people wouldn't need to grind as hard if DE lowered the requirements for things.  Thus they wouldn't need to have frames be able to do long runs.

But that would be a massive overhaul of the game and personally i'd question why you're playing a game that's designed to be a time sink in the first place.  I think it's important to recognize that the reason we're so powerful isn't due to radial abilities alone.  But rather over the course of the past year ish DE has been making it so player power on an individual level increase steadily.  The average player has a handful of options to be self sustainable through mods, operator, and frames.  Both for energy and health.  Equipment too.  This is a major reason why, in my mind, coop is at the way side.  (beyond the fact that warframe syngeries are rare and not encouraged/rewarded.)  I'm rambling though.

Basically I wouldn't say DE is balancing for all content.  I think they're just making sure the options for gameplay continues to stay as open as possible regardless of what content your playing and what level the enemies are.  Which at least is a good thing to go for.  Even if it might not be handled the best at the current time.

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Just because DE doesn't balance for that point doesn't mean frames shouldn't be capable of handling content beyond that point.  DE recognizes that Warframe is a grind based game.  So in the case of endless missions (which is where most people go to farm a majority of things in the game) they're essentially offering you two ways to play.

So which one is it, then? Should DE balance frames so that they can thrive against level 200 enemies, or should they not? Obviously, the game doesn't become literally impossible to play the moment enemies reach level 101 or the like, but if you're having trouble dealing with enemies after that, why should anyone care? By contrast, if your frame is killing level 1-100 enemies way too fast, or can literally go AFK in a crowd and lose virtually no health (looking at you, Inaros), then there is a problem, because that frame is clearly imbalanced, by the definition DE have set themselves for balancing frames. Saryn does not need to be balanced around mass-murdering level 200 enemies within a couple of seconds, and if she were (I don't think she is), that in itself would be an easy reason to nerf her. Going past the first rotation in an endless mission is intended to become increasingly difficult, and asking for a frame to be balanced around thriving well into those ranges simply amounts to asking for endurance runs to be made easier.

[MirageKnight]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This I think could solve a large number of problem abilities, though I feel there can also be room for different balancing methods: an ability that can reach enemies through walls but can't kill them on its own, for example, is an ability that could allow a frame to influence a map and set up kills, without necessarily taking them away from their teammates each time. Even an ability that can single-handedly kill enemies through walls could be acceptable, if that ability could only do so infrequently (preferably without implementing a cooldown, though). In general, I think there are three key traits that make a nuke ability problematic: if the ability can a) kill enemies on its own, b) ignore line of sight, and c) be used on-demand with little to no downtime, the end result is an ability that can and will be used to simply eliminate enemies from the map without much interaction from any player, including the one casting the ability. Eliminating even one of these traits would make for a much healthier nuke, and so the trick would be finding which component to take out of each problem nuke to have it become healthier and still work well for the frame in question (Saryn may not want her Spore propagation to rely on line of sight, for example, but may not need to kill enemies with Spores single-handedly either).

I suppose it boils down to how the ability is meant to work from a mechanical / physical perspective. Is the "medium" generated by the ability intended to flow around and over objects like a gas, flow around things like a liquid, or outward in all directions like a shockwave? If the latter, such as Volt's 4 or Mag's 3, then walls ought to block propagation.

With regard to Saryn, her 4 ought to be redone so that it inflicts Gas and Corrosive. Tweak Spores so that they only do Toxin damage and for a limited duration...and reduce the casting range to 50m.

No starting ability should be as powerful as Spores is right now.

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

My brother who is mr 8 doesnt yet have many corrupted mods (espefically for frames he doesnt have any) can nuke hydron with oberons carpet. Does this mean that oberon needs to be nerfed?

As an avid Oberon player with a 255 strength Rage build....I'm honestly inclined to say yes, Hallowed Ground's damage could stand to be reeled in a little bit.

When a couple of people have to ask you to tone things down a bit so they can actually kill things, that speaks volumes.

[DiabolusUrsus]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Just wanted to chime in on this.  DE has expressly stated that they indeed do not balance for things past a certain point.  Though I think you might be making a false equivelance here (if i'm using the term right.)  Just because DE doesn't balance for that point doesn't mean frames shouldn't be capable of handling content beyond that point.

Uh, yes it does. If a Frame is balanced to handle L200 content then it is necessarily going to be OP for L100 content and below.

And let's be clear: the idea of "capability" in thos case is flexible. I'm not saying L200 enemies should be outright impossible to beat, but if DE balances only up to L100 then "but we need this damage for L150+ content" is not a valid argument.

Quote

DE recognizes that Warframe is a grind based game.  So in the case of endless missions (which is where most people go to farm a majority of things in the game) they're essentially offering you two ways to play.

You can either hop out once you've hit a full rotation and then re enter.  Or you can stay longer for some better exp/resources and continue to farm but at the cost of harder content.  I think this choice is important and should stay.  It sounds like you're essentially asking for things to only be about the star chart.  (please correct me if i'm wrong.)

I... What? Did you read or skim? Based on this statement:

On 2018-12-08 at 11:18 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Endurance runs are certainly a legitimate way to play the game, and I doubt you'll find many people in favor of removing them or making them outright impossible.

I thought it should be clear that my goal is not to destroy endurance runs.

Quote

You could argue that people wouldn't need to grind as hard if DE lowered the requirements for things.  Thus they wouldn't need to have frames be able to do long runs.

Similarly, I would argue that our ability to grind so efficiently is precisely why we've ended up with such inane resource costs (Hema, Sibear, Vauban Prime, etc.) and 0.02% drop rates on some mods.

Quote

But that would be a massive overhaul of the game and personally i'd question why you're playing a game that's designed to be a time sink in the first place.

There's a difference between requiring grind and completely failing to respect the players' time as valuable. The level of grind is arbitrary, and it's not an honest argument to suggest that players are missing the point if they say "this is too much."

Grind is a big part of Warframe, true, but it's not the sole factor in whether or not players enjoy playing.

Quote

I think it's important to recognize that the reason we're so powerful isn't due to radial abilities alone.

Agreed, and I didn't say otherwise. But this thread is rather explicitly about Saryn. My only original point was that "high level content" is not a valid consideration for balance tweaks because it isn't supposed to be balanced in the first place.

Quote

  But rather over the course of the past year ish DE has been making it so player power on an individual level increase steadily. 

That's been happening a lot longer than the past year.

Quote

The average player has a handful of options to be self sustainable through mods, operator, and frames.  Both for energy and health.  Equipment too.  This is a major reason why, in my mind, coop is at the way side.  (beyond the fact that warframe syngeries are rare and not encouraged/rewarded.)  I'm rambling though.

I am inclined to agree with this statement, though I would prefer to preserve a baseline level of self-sustain for all Warframes in consideration of solo players.

Quote

Basically I wouldn't say DE is balancing for all content.  I think they're just making sure the options for gameplay continues to stay as open as possible regardless of what content your playing and what level the enemies are.  Which at least is a good thing to go for.  Even if it might not be handled the best at the current time.

Then what, pray tell, is the point of scaling enemies at all?

The two most common complaints I see from endurance runners are

1. It takes too long to reach challenging content, and
2. There isn't really that much challenge when you actually get there.

These complaints are a direct consequence of Warframes being OP enough to trivialize L300+ enemies, all the way up to 9999 or whatever the max level is given the right setup.

If DE successfully balanced the game for up to L100,

1. It would take less time to be challenged, and
2. There might actually be some challenge because enemies would start to out-scale players.

This would make reaching high level content an actual accomplishment rather than "did you pick an endurance build? yes/no" followed by "do you have the patience to play this mode for 3+ hours? yes/no."

Edited December 10, 2018 by DiabolusUrsus
Typo

[Pixues]

Its not just new players.

Veterans also complain about these things.

But you have a lot of registered people that want to keep all of it in the game because of this thing called 'power-fantasy'.

[RacerDelux]

29 minutes ago, Pixues said:

But you have a lot of registered people that want to keep all of it in the game because of this thing called 'power-fantasy'.

I also would rather the 2,000+ hours I have put in the game to suddenly have little value, as well as the thousands I have given DE. I have supported the game for 5 years as it is now, and would be very disappointing to see that go away.

I am happy Warframe is like this, not for a power fantasy, but rather because I think there is really little wrong with how power is in the game. Could scaling be better? Yes.

As it stands, Warframe is unique in the looter shooter game market. With Destiny and the upcoming Athem taking their own place (played the alpha, was impressed, and felt different from both Warframe and Destiny).

TLDR - Warframe is its own game, and should not strive to be like any of the other games in the market.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Uh, yes it does. If a Frame is balanced to handle L200 content then it is necessarily going to be OP for L100 content and below.

This assumes content is balanced around that kind of content.  DE themselves said they don't balance that high.  I don't think something being capable of being able to do that kind of content mean's it's balanced around that content.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

And let's be clear: the idea of "capability" in thos case is flexible. I'm not saying L200 enemies should be outright impossible to beat, but if DE balances only up to L100 then "but we need this damage for L150+ content" is not a valid argument.

Not the argument i'm making.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I... What? Did you read or skim? Based on this statement:

I thought it should be clear that my goal is not to destroy endurance runs.

Was more or less stating that I feel like some of your statements were confusing to me.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Similarly, I would argue that our ability to grind so efficiently is precisely why we've ended up with such inane resource costs (Hema, Sibear, Vauban Prime, etc.) and 0.02% drop rates on some mods.

I think there is a bit more to it than that.  I think we currently exist in a self feeding vicious cycle.  As long as people can recognize that player power isn't the only reason we're at where we're at and sole blame isn't placed there I can move on.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

There's a difference between requiring grind and completely failing to respect the players' time as valuable. The level of grind is arbitrary, and it's not an honest argument to suggest that players are missing the point if they say "this is too much."

Grind is a big part of Warframe, true, but it's not the sole factor in whether or not players enjoy playing.

This is true, if you got that I was trying to be arbitrarily black and white I apologize.  That was not my intention with this statement.  There are some things where the cost is indeed too high.  And players do indeed play this game for more than just grinding.  But I think it's important for people to realize that the game is heavily based on grinding.  And simply reducing that across the board by a significant amount would have ramifications that I don't think people are seeing.  The immediate one would probably be DE scrambling to find some other way to pull money from us.  As a good portion of their income comes from people shortcutting.  If we simply reduced the need to shortcut on such a drastic level then that wouldn't be a valuable source of income for DE anymore.  imo anyway.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Agreed, and I didn't say otherwise. But this thread is rather explicitly about Saryn. My only original point was that "high level content" is not a valid consideration for balance tweaks because it isn't supposed to be balanced in the first place.

I agree that high level content is not an excuse to ignore potential balance issues.  But i'd also argue that just because Saryn is capable of doing said high level content that doesn't mean the content itself is balanced.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's been happening a lot longer than the past year.

I am inclined to agree with this statement, though I would prefer to preserve a baseline level of self-sustain for all Warframes in consideration of solo players.

I agree.  I also believe all content should be soloable.

18 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Then what, pray tell, is the point of scaling enemies at all?

The two most common complaints I see from endurance runners are

1. It takes too long to reach challenging content, and
2. There isn't really that much challenge when you actually get there.

These complaints are a direct consequence of Warframes being OP enough to trivialize L300+ enemies, all the way up to 9999 or whatever the max level is given the right setup.

If DE successfully balanced the game for up to L100,

1. It would take less time to be challenged, and
2. There might actually be some challenge because enemies would start to out-scale players.

This would make reaching high level content an actual accomplishment rather than "did you pick an endurance build? yes/no" followed by "do you have the patience to play this mode for 3+ hours? yes/no."

I think scaling enemies exist as DE's "challenging" content.  But they realized this wasn't enough so they've been trying to make specific activities for this.  I also believe the serve as a wall for players with less optimal builds to reach a challenge earlier.  That way not all content is a joke for all players until some really high mark.  Actually I partially agree with that.  But I also think that the reason said content isn't challenging is because the enemies themselves are not offering anything different for the player.  All that changes is a higher spawn rate of the annoying enemies and more health/armor.  From what i've seen people want challenging content in the form of mechanics.  Which is half the reason why endurance runs are not as attractive as they used to be (back when the void was the end game designated area.)

Also I don't think people would really mind going 3+ hours again if gameplay itself was more engaging.  Part of this problem is indeed player power.  But part of this is also due to how poor enemy design is.  I want to make it clear that i'd be totally down for shrinking player power, having less of a grind, and having a much higher emphasis on coop play.  The issue I run into here is two fold.  The first being DE would have to change a LOT.  I would not be satisfied with a player nerf only.  (and it seems like some people think nerfing player power alone would solve all of WF's issues.)  The second would be the community should be fine with waiting to have a change drop until DE can address it all at once.  Meaning if we're going to drop player power I will not accept this as being okay unless they're following up with an enemy scaling rebalance either at the same time or within the week.

I personally am neutral here.  I don't mind how things currently are.  And I also wouldn't mind a big shift in direction for this game.  I just don't believe DE would be willing to jump that far.  Which is why i'm always a bit touchy when people ask for nerfs.  Because I don't want things to become less effective just for the sake of someone else's piece of mind.  I don't personally believe Saryn is a problem anymore than any other dps frame outside of ESO.  I'd be fine with her getting a rerere-rework down the line so long as the new Saryn is just as engaging and interesting as this current one.  I don't personally accept some of the solutions proposed here on nerfing her for reasons i've already stated a handful of times.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This assumes content is balanced around that kind of content.  DE themselves said they don't balance that high.  I don't think something being capable of being able to do that kind of content mean's it's balanced around that content.

Not the argument i'm making.

In that case I don't think there was anything to debate in the first place. I wasn't arguing that Saryn was balanced for high-level content, or that her current power level means she is balanced that way.

I was supporting an argument that shot down the idea that Saryn needed as much damage as she has for the purpose of downing high level enemies. 

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think there is a bit more to it than that.  I think we currently exist in a self feeding vicious cycle.  As long as people can recognize that player power isn't the only reason we're at where we're at and sole blame isn't placed there I can move on.

Obviously energy economy and enemy scaling are also contributing factors, and for any sort of meaningful systemic rebalance to he successful everything needs to be tweaked in one go.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This is true, if you got that I was trying to be arbitrarily black and white I apologize.  That was not my intention with this statement.  There are some things where the cost is indeed too high.  And players do indeed play this game for more than just grinding.  But I think it's important for people to realize that the game is heavily based on grinding.  And simply reducing that across the board by a significant amount would have ramifications that I don't think people are seeing.  The immediate one would probably be DE scrambling to find some other way to pull money from us.  As a good portion of their income comes from people shortcutting.  If we simply reduced the need to shortcut on such a drastic level then that wouldn't be a valuable source of income for DE anymore.  imo anyway.

I think you're overlooking the fact that the grind requirements would be reduced proportionally to compensate for decreased grinding potential. In other words, players grind slower but they don't need to grind for quite as long.

Nobody is suggesting that DE should damage their own monetization.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I agree that high level content is not an excuse to ignore potential balance issues.  But i'd also argue that just because Saryn is capable of doing said high level content that doesn't mean the content itself is balanced.

Are you suggesting that Saryn is not overpowered?

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think scaling enemies exist as DE's "challenging" content.  But they realized this wasn't enough so they've been trying to make specific activities for this.  I also believe the serve as a wall for players with less optimal builds to reach a challenge earlier.  That way not all content is a joke for all players until some really high mark.  Actually I partially agree with that.  But I also think that the reason said content isn't challenging is because the enemies themselves are not offering anything different for the player.  All that changes is a higher spawn rate of the annoying enemies and more health/armor.  From what i've seen people want challenging content in the form of mechanics.  Which is half the reason why endurance runs are not as attractive as they used to be (back when the void was the end game designated area.)

How would you suggest implementing challenging mechanics when enemies die in fractions of a second and players can permanently disable their AI through CC?

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Also I don't think people would really mind going 3+ hours again if gameplay itself was more engaging.  Part of this problem is indeed player power.  But part of this is also due to how poor enemy design is.  I want to make it clear that i'd be totally down for shrinking player power, having less of a grind, and having a much higher emphasis on coop play.  The issue I run into here is two fold.  The first being DE would have to change a LOT.  I would not be satisfied with a player nerf only.  (and it seems like some people think nerfing player power alone would solve all of WF's issues.) 

Agreed that DE needs to adjust the entire status quo at once. Nerfing players only would just produce OP enemies with inane levels of damage and health.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The second would be the community should be fine with waiting to have a change drop until DE can address it all at once.  Meaning if we're going to drop player power I will not accept this as being okay unless they're following up with an enemy scaling rebalance either at the same time or within the week.

This seems like a repeat of issue 1. Otherwise players are already used to waiting for big updates.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I personally am neutral here.  I don't mind how things currently are.  And I also wouldn't mind a big shift in direction for this game.  I just don't believe DE would be willing to jump that far.  Which is why i'm always a bit touchy when people ask for nerfs.  Because I don't want things to become less effective just for the sake of someone else's piece of mind. 

Sorry, but that's a big 'ol strawman. You're being needlessly reductive about why players ask for nerfs.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I don't personally believe Saryn is a problem anymore than any other dps frame outside of ESO.  I'd be fine with her getting a rerere-rework down the line so long as the new Saryn is just as engaging and interesting as this current one.  I don't personally accept some of the solutions proposed here on nerfing her for reasons i've already stated a handful of times.

That's fine; I'm not here to debate about which specific changes to make, nor am I interested in debating which specific modes Saryn becomes problematic in.

[Xepthrichros]

Well, then kindly leave.

I am only a 1 year old player.

I joined. I saw the power. I liked. I farmed the frames. I used the power. I enjoyed. Room-clearers included.

In a market full of games that make you feel weak, giving you meager rewards for hours of grinding. Every now and then, something that grants you the power to wreck all is refreshing. (and yet some people say warframe is farm frame or warfarm)

If that's not for you, then maybe you joined the wrong game. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Xepthrichros

[MirageKnight]

52 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Well, then kindly leave.

Who are you to dictate who can and cannot participate in a discussion?

56 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

I am only a 1 year old player.

I joined. I saw the power. I liked. I farmed the frames. I used the power. I enjoyed. Room-clearers included.

Well, then kindly leave. See? I can do that too.

53 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

If that's not for you, then maybe you joined the wrong game. 

Same could be said of you mate. If you don't like games where you're supposed to cooperate with others, then you probably shouldn't have picked up a coop-oriented shooter.

[Xepthrichros]

14 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Who are you to dictate who can and cannot participate in a discussion?

Well, then kindly leave. See? I can do that too.

Same could be said of you mate. If you don't like games where you're supposed to cooperate with others, then you probably shouldn't have picked up a coop-oriented shooter.

People who cooperate actually stay in games, regardless of who or what joins the party and don't scream on forums for nerfs. That latter of which is precisely what you and the topic starter are doing.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Xepthrichros

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Well, then kindly leave.

I am only a 1 year old player.

I joined. I saw the power. I liked. I farmed the frames. I used the power. I enjoyed. Room-clearers included.

In a market full of games that make you feel weak, giving you meager rewards for hours of grinding. Every now and then, something that grants you the power to wreck all is refreshing. (and yet some people say warframe is farm frame or warfarm)

If that's not for you, then maybe you joined the wrong game. 

Lots of people play the game for the unique aesthetic, the tacky 90's anime atmosphere, and the sheer diversity of stuff you can get that gives you so much room to find fun combinations of stuff, and those reasons are equally as valid as the reasons you play the game. Believe it or not, people can enjoy a game and want to play it without unanimously and uncritically loving absolutely everything about it. That is why the feedback forums even exist in the first place. Someone coming to the feedback forum to express a complaint does not mean that this game is absolutely wrong for them and that they should quit playing it. 

Furthermore, Warframe can be a fun power fantasy without being mind-numbingly trivial, and it can certainly be a power fantasy without one player being able to effortlessly make every mission a ghost town for the 3 other people in the squad. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Gurpgork

[DiabolusUrsus]

50 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

People who cooperate actually stay in games, regardless of who or what joins the party and don't scream on forums for nerfs. That latter of which is precisely what you and the topic starter are doing.

Standing around twiddling your thumbs while 1 person solos the mission is not "cooperating."

[MirageKnight]

59 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Furthermore, Warframe can be a fun power fantasy without being mind-numbingly trivial, and it can certainly be a power fantasy without one player being able to effortlessly make every mission a ghost town for the 3 other people in the squad. 

Well said!

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

the tacky 90's anime atmosphere,

Be fair - It's not THAT tacky.

^{Also, Frohd Bek vids don't count.}

[Gurpgork]

4 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Be fair - It's not THAT tacky.

Perhaps, but make no mistake--I love Warframe because of its tackiness, not in spite of it. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

In that case I don't think there was anything to debate in the first place. I wasn't arguing that Saryn was balanced for high-level content, or that her current power level means she is balanced that way.

Yeah that was a misunderstanding on my part.  Apologies.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I was supporting an argument that shot down the idea that Saryn needed as much damage as she has for the purpose of downing high level enemies. 

Fair enough.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Obviously energy economy and enemy scaling are also contributing factors, and for any sort of meaningful systemic rebalance to he successful everything needs to be tweaked in one go.

We are in agreement then.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think you're overlooking the fact that the grind requirements would be reduced proportionally to compensate for decreased grinding potential. In other words, players grind slower but they don't need to grind for quite as long.

Nobody is suggesting that DE should damage their own monetization.

I'm having a hard time seeing that in my head.  But this is likely due to my learning handicap.  I'd be fine with shortening grind time if shortcuts were still a lucrative thing for DE.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Are you suggesting that Saryn is not overpowered?

I don't personally believe she is.  Likely what I see as OP is different compared to many others.  I usually have a bass ackwards view on things/understandings of terms.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

How would you suggest implementing challenging mechanics when enemies die in fractions of a second and players can permanently disable their AI through CC?

I don't have a suggestion for that.  Sorry.  I was merely just trying to state that in my experience with gaming people usually like opting for challenge via mechanics over health/damage increase because mechanics ask a player to play something different/learn something new.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Agreed that DE needs to adjust the entire status quo at once. Nerfing players only would just produce OP enemies with inane levels of damage and health.

Thank you.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

This seems like a repeat of issue 1. Otherwise players are already used to waiting for big updates.

It is some what.  I don't think I got my point across exactly how I wanted it.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Sorry, but that's a big 'ol strawman. You're being needlessly reductive about why players ask for nerfs.

Apologies.  I'm not trying to indicate that all nerfs being asked for are for the same reason.  Nor am I trying to devalue someone else's opinion/feelings.  I was just trying to clarify that even though i've been arguing against nerfing Saryn in here I'm not against her being changed.  In the same vein with me defending the game as is.  I suppose it would have just been easier for me to just say i'm not against change.  I'm just against specific changes being mentioned here.

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

That's fine; I'm not here to debate about which specific changes to make, nor am I interested in debating which specific modes Saryn becomes problematic in.

Alright.

[(PSN)xstatic900]

I miss saryn 2.0.