Why Fortuna lacks logic

[spirit_of_76]

this is what I get @--Laughing-Soul--

Edited December 3, 2018 by spirit_of_76

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, cheliel said:

C. Ticker and Vent kids are relatively hidden but Eudico is out in the open handling Tennos. Any Corpus investigator can trace the Tenno back to Eudico as they amass to her

There are probably very few Tenno actually working with Eudico, like 3 or 4. Maybe even 1. This is an example where the game mechanics take precedence over direct lore interpretation – like in the Second Dream where all 30 million players fight Hunhow and the Stalker. Obviously that's not how it played out in-universe. Some allowances have to be made.

1 hour ago, cheliel said:

B. Corpus are attacked by groups of Tenno who conspicuously regroup in Fortuna.

Nef knows Solaris United exists, and by necessity is based out of Fortuna. He knows the Tenno are working with Solaris United. This comes out in the Vox Solaris quest. At the end of that quest, he realises that Fortuna and the Solaris people are vital to the working of the Vallis (for which he reaps the profits), and so he can tolerate a little bit of disruption from rogue elements. It's not worth the effort or credits to stamp them out. It's not like Eudico has us exterminating the entire Corpus force. In-universe, we just cause a bit of trouble here and there. In the larger scheme of things, it all gets smoothed over.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Turaglas said:

Radiation or virus bomb it.  Or make a new one and orbitally bomb the Solaris.

Nef needs the Solaris people. They're the only ones who know the inner workings of the Orokin coolant towers, which are necessary to sustain the Vallis' climate. Also, they're cheap labour.

1 hour ago, Pooroldude said:

How does fortuna generate profit for Nef? They missed investors showcase of the orokin tower and they do not seem to mine or harvest any resource.

I do not see any point of nef keeping an awfully defiant set of workers that regularly(bounty) sabotage corpus operations.

The Orb Vallis as a region has many enterprises, all under Nef's umbrella. The Enrichment Labs perform detailed study on Orokin and Sentient traces (likely responsible for the development of the Ocucor, Battacor, and the Sentient shielding that protects the Orb Mothers). Resources are in fact mined from the Vallis, as Eudico sends you to protect some excavators or steal resource stockpiles every now and then. The Ghoul journal fragments tell the story of a scientist who studied extinct Venusian species for reconstruction – for study and for profit. The Grow Site manufacture food, perhaps to be shipped off-world. Fortuna (or the Starport) is likely a massive trading port for Corpus in the Inner System. And it likely serves as a training centre for soldiers as well. In the end, the minor disruptions of the Tenno and Solaris United do not compare to the massive profit the whole Vallis makes for Nef.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Why can't the Doctor just go back in time to save people he missed the first time?

Because going back on your own timeline risks creating a paradox, which is a very bad thing.

This was explained in the series itself, and demonstrated in the episode "Fathers Day" (if not before).

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Because going back on your own timeline risks creating a paradox, which is a very bad thing.

This was explained in the series itself, and demonstrated in the episode "Fathers Day" (if not before).

And why is that the case? Aren't there loopholes? Surely since the requirements pretty much are 'no paradoxes' he could just pull a Marty McFly and pop in once his previous self has turned away and get them out of there. Hell, he does pull stuff like this at other times in the series. He crosses paths with Martha's timeline after she's met him, and thus indirectly his own to give Martha his tie so two of his ties are in the same timestream simultaneously, presumably risking a paradox in order to prove a point - apparently being eaten by extra-dimensional monsters isn't a concern here. And, a big one, 'The Doctor Dies'? Much as I found that plot shenaniganry brilliant, at the end of the day that was them messing around with established continuity - that The Doctor has to die in that moment, as evidenced earlier. River breaking the timeline causes the Apocalypse, the Doctor doing it doesn't. And yes, yes, 'Everyone THINKS he's dead so it counts' I get it, there's a handwave for that too. But does his and Rivers observation of his survival not qualify? What about everyone who meets him past that point? Like the Daleks who would absolutely be keeping tabs on something like that?

Basically, you've proven my point - it doesn't need to be a logically airtight conclusion. All those specifics I gave have answers. Orochi does it because he's massive monster serpent with a personality problem and thinking people are leaving out booze for him is a perfectly rational situation in his mind. Sauron does it because he wants to be stealthy about his return until it's too late for the kingdoms of man to react. Are these answers fully, 100% logical, the best course of action? No. Orochi's also a cunning serpent demon who's presumably been on the receiving end of murder attempts more than once, and why would Sauron need to keep stealthy if the ring is his instant-win button? It's just logical enough for the audience to accept this whilst engaging in the story and not break that 'magic circle' of belief in the world. Same's true of games, just a little more complex due to game mechanics adding another spanner in the works.

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

give Martha his tie

Except he doesn't. All he does is take it off while saying "Like so!".

 

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

that The Doctor has to die in that moment,

He only had to be seen to die, the consequences of River's actions were due to her going against the observed sequence of events of a fixed point.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Except he doesn't. All he does is take it off while saying "Like so!".

 

He only had to be seen to die, the consequences of River's actions were due to her going against the observed sequence of events of a fixed point.

We can argue the minutia to the end of time. Maybe I got some details wrong, it doesn't matter, I wasn't rewatching those episodes as I wrote that.

My point is, the writers didn't think about those minutia. The writers made something that had a good enough explanation to not break the story. It doesn't have to be something that can 100%, unarguable because that's not needed to keep the vast majority believing in the story.

[Sitchrea]

The way I see it, it's important to keep in mind that cybog Corpus Crewmen and MOA's are far cheaper to manufacture and maintain than a specialized work force with esoteric knowledge.

The Solarians of Fortuna are the only people in the entire Origin System who understand how the Orb Vallis Weeping Posts work. The Vox Solaris quest showed us that Nef cannot lose the Solarians of Fortuna without also losing the Orb Vallis. Given how the Orb Vallis is an extraordinarily valuable piece of land, the loss of a few thousand cyborg Crewmen and MOA's to the Tenno - who are really no more than a nuisance - pales in comparison to losing the entire Orb Vallis to a Solaris revolt. Fringe elements of the Solaris are willing to commit the genocide of their own people, as seen in the Vox Solaris quest. Capitulating their demands is a neccessary evil, and Eudico knows that. Hence the little work the Tenno do to help the Solarians does far more good than what is readily apparent.

When it comes to the Corpus, it's all about the money.

[TheVeiledScion]

4 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

*corpus investigator without a robot head enter Fortuna* hello fellow Solarians, how do you do? *corpus investigator get's send back piece by piece to Nef*

 

4 hours ago, Pooroldude said:

How does fortuna generate profit for Nef? They missed investors showcase of the orokin tower and they do not seem to mine or harvest any resource.

I do not see any point of nef keeping an awfully defiant set of workers that regularly(bounty) sabotage corpus operations.

To me, the simplest question is, why doesn’t Nef just put some Corpus in Fortuna? They can clearly enter and take people at will to repossess their organs and body parts.  They clearly have more than enough bursas and combas to guard a relatively tiny Solaris home base.  This is where the logic actually breaks down, or at least isn’t very well explained.

Also, one thing they could explain more are the rail agents/relative freedom of Solaris to take rail agent jobs.  How do the Corpus account for the flight risk?  Are there trackers? Do they have leverage? I get that the Solaris are really proud of working, but what incentive do debt-slaves have to keep working for an obvious oppressor?

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Arktourus said:

Also, one thing they could explain more are the rail agents/relative freedom of Solaris to take rail agent jobs.  How do the Corpus account for the flight risk?  Are there trackers? Do they have leverage? I get that the Solaris are really proud of working, but what incentive do debt-slaves have to keep working for an obvious oppressor?

I think this, the guys in the relays and the mention of a deal between Solaris and Corpus in Vox Solaris seem to indicate that there are Solaris that don't work for Nef, probably under more favourable conditions. Neffy, then, is cheating that system.

Eudico's mention of Biz as 'Solaris but not from here' indicates this as well, although it seems she (and to be honest, me) suspects that there's more to it than that.

[IIDMOII]

Lol trying to make sense of the lore and story.

It's an open area with absolutely nothing interesting to see or do. 

I wish there were more factions. Because I would choose the ones that attack these new zones not protect them.

All I got is a weak pistol and a ton of host migrations and being stuck in elevator hell.

Much rather see what rewards the corpus would offer for voluntary policing these no head failbots.

If it were possible that would be my most satisfying thing. To destroy that elevator on Fortuna and hallway on Cetus. Those 2 things are the end boss of warframe afaic 

Sorry. The story building and character development happens so slow and in a piecemeal fashion, it's impossible to remember or care. It's also hard to imagine THAT much thought goes into it.

-Open zone.

-Poe template with extreme grind. 

-a basic howdy do with static computer terminals (npc) all of whom have something to by pass said grind with platinum. 

It's shallow. Stop trying to analyze some grand story arc here. It's just the latest room in the skinner box.

Edited December 3, 2018 by IIDMOII

[trst]

2 hours ago, Arktourus said:

 

To me, the simplest question is, why doesn’t Nef just put some Corpus in Fortuna? They can clearly enter and take people at will to repossess their organs and body parts.  They clearly have more than enough bursas and combas to guard a relatively tiny Solaris home base.  This is where the logic actually breaks down, or at least isn’t very well explained.

Also, one thing they could explain more are the rail agents/relative freedom of Solaris to take rail agent jobs.  How do the Corpus account for the flight risk?  Are there trackers? Do they have leverage? I get that the Solaris are really proud of working, but what incentive do debt-slaves have to keep working for an obvious oppressor?

As far as we know regular Corpus are actually paid for their work or at the very least compensated more than the Solarians are. Nef keeps the Solaris in a endless cycle of debt and if they default or die before paying it then Nef goes out and "passes" the debt to their family.

And the same can apply to those who're able to work off Venus; Nef has their number and if they default then their family has to pay for it. Plus (at least as far as the corpus are concerned) nobody is coming to their aid if they default on a contract with someone as powerful as Nef. Even the other factions might refuse to step into these problems since Nef is likely doing everything he does legally.

[Loza03]

28 minutes ago, IIDMOII said:

Lol trying to make sense of the lore and story.

It's an open area with absolutely nothing interesting to see or do. 

I wish there were more factions. Because I would choose the ones that attack these new zones not protect them.

All I got is a weak pistol and a ton of host migrations and being stuck in elevator hell.

Much rather see what rewards the corpus would offer for voluntary policing these no head failbots.

If it were possible that would be my most satisfying thing. To destroy that elevator on Fortuna and hallway on Cetus. Those 2 things are the end boss of warframe afaic 

Sorry. The story building and character development happens so slow and in a piecemeal fashion, it's impossible to remember or care. It's also hard to imagine THAT much thought goes into it.

-Open zone.

-Poe template with extreme grind. 

-a basic howdy do with static computer terminals (npc) all of whom have something to by pass said grind with platinum. 

It's shallow. Stop trying to analyze some grand story arc here. It's just the latest room in the skinner box.

I'm no DE yes-man, but frankly, if you think that negatively about Warframe that… why are you still playing it? Genuinely, why? It can't be healthy.

[OniDax]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'm no DE yes-man, but frankly, if you think that negatively about Warframe that… why are you still playing it? Genuinely, why? It can't be healthy.

Because he wants it to get better, so he is pointing out flaws in how DE develops their game and the kind of content they make. Also, he's right. DE's approach to story is incredibly shallow.

Edited December 4, 2018 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[spirit_of_76]

1 hour ago, IIDMOII said:

All I got is a weak pistol and a ton of host migrations and being stuck in elevator hell.

learn to make kit guns they are far from weak

1 hour ago, IIDMOII said:

-Poe template with extreme grind.

this is way less than POE after the fixes

1 hour ago, IIDMOII said:

a basic howdy do with static computer terminals (npc) all of whom have something to by pass said grind with platinum.

this might be why you kit gun sucked.  the point is to build one to your specification not to by a random one for plat

2 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

It's an open area with absolutely nothing interesting to see or do

get the enemies to 4 star wanted level and then see how long you last.  

2 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

Lol trying to make sense of the lore and story.

 

because there is some and it is fun to debate whether Fortuna should be written off

2 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

Sorry. The story building and character development happens so slow and in a piecemeal fashion, it's impossible to remember or care. It's also hard to imagine THAT much thought goes into it

there is a fair bit when you reach old mate and they are willing to tell you about some of their history

[Highlord83]

The hell would Neffy do about it? Order his cronies to storm an enclosed, close-quarters zone made of corridors and blind turns full of rampaging supersoldier space ninjas?

We'd scalpel off his little danglers and give them unto the void in a day flat.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Highlord83

[Pooroldude]

1 hour ago, Highlord83 said:

The hell would Neffy do about it? Order his cronies to storm an enclosed, close-quarters zone made of corridors and blind turns full of rampaging supersoldier space ninjas?

We'd scalpel off his little danglers and give them unto the void in a day flat.

 

Maybe that's why they nerfed superman 😜

and ember

Edited December 4, 2018 by Pooroldude

[Loza03]

On ‎2018‎-‎12‎-‎03 at 11:58 PM, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Because he wants it to get better, so he is pointing out flaws in how DE develops their game and the kind of content they make. Also, he's right. DE's approach to story is incredibly shallow.

Considering that it's possibly the most negative spin that they could make without any attempt to detail any precise flaws instead making sweeping generalisations (some poorly-informed), written on a forum away from the two dedicated Feeback sections? If feedback was their intent, then it's not clear and not properly done. Not to mention that the only suggestion, that a Corpus side to Fortuna be made is impossible with DE's resources. That would necessitate pretty much twice the work of Fortuna, which was already an undertaking of similar proportions to PoE since it would require equivalent mechanics, with their progression curves. A second Kitgun system, an alternative transport to K-drives, an alternate quest and in the future, an alternative to the Orb fights. And these would probably be mutually exclusive, locking players out of content, which is something DE have shown they're not keen on doing.

Besides all that, the term that they used I was particularly looking at was 'Skinner box'. This implies that they no longer derive enjoyment from Warframe and are only playing it for the Drip-feed of Content. That's why I said what I said - if you're viewing any form of entertainment like that and still engaging it, it's not healthy and you should stop. That's not fun - that's addiction. 

[Legion-Shields]

Nef Anyo no doubt has more money to pay us with but we decide to work for the slaves instead.

[cheliel]

Let’s keep the conversation relevant to the title- the logic of Fortuna, instead of getting sidetracked 

Someone said something interesting- that the lore really is a solo mode thing just like quests 

To that I suggest we see only few people in Fortuna, just like in quests. Because the logic will break if we see dozens of Tennos near Fortuna if indeed the lore a solo experience 

[Loza03]

26 minutes ago, cheliel said:

Let’s keep the conversation relevant to the title- the logic of Fortuna, instead of getting sidetracked 

Someone said something interesting- that the lore really is a solo mode thing just like quests 

To that I suggest we see only few people in Fortuna, just like in quests. Because the logic will break if we see dozens of Tennos near Fortuna if indeed the lore a solo experience 

I agree that the conversation should stick to the title. I don't particularly want a S***show, regardless of whether or not I'm stumbling into one by my own social awkwardness.

To that end, I half agree? On the one hand, it fosters a nice sense of community to be able to actually see and run into Tenno every now and then. On the other hand, it can mess with the lore.

[Falconer777]

В 03.12.2018 в 19:04, cheliel сказал:

A. Corpus can be killed yet we have animal preservation 

I agree. In addition, we will look at the main "savior of animals" of Fortune - Garuda. And her third skill, "Altar of Blood". In fact, she puts the people of the Corps on a stake. IMHO, or the salvation of cute little animals - or sadism. Somehow need to be determined)

Цитата

B. Corpus are attacked by groups of Tenno who conspicuously regroup in Fortuna. 

I am agree again. At the same time - Tenno continue to take part in the entertainment program of the Corpus - Index, earning money for themselves. And Tenno continue to work for the Corpus in the "invasions", killing Grineer.
Personally, I find it difficult to see some sequence in the plans of Tenno)

Цитата

C. Ticker and Vent kids are relatively hidden but Eudico is out in the open handling Tennos. Any Corpus investigator can trace the Tenno back to Eudico as they amass to her 

I also do not understand why she is still at large, and why the Corpus Division is not worth it in Fortuna. Fortuna is not protected and is not strengthened AT ALL. All that separates her from the soldiers of the Corpus - is the elevator.

Another incomprehensible moment for me:

Спойлер

Why do Solaris carry their own severed heads with them in their chest boxes? That is, what's the point at all. What kind of benefits for the Corps in such ... hmm ... configuration of their slaves. It looks unpleasant and pointless. And if Solaris is so cunning and unattainable for the soldiers of the Corps, why did they still not hire a good transplantologist, and did not return their heads to their shoulders?)

 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

On 2018-12-03 at 10:04 AM, cheliel said:

A. Corpus can be killed yet we have animal preservation 

B. Corpus are attacked by groups of Tenno who conspicuously regroup in Fortuna. 

C. Ticker and Vent kids are relatively hidden but Eudico is out in the open handling Tennos. Any Corpus investigator can trace the Tenno back to Eudico as they amass to her  

 

A, ya the biz wants to save life instead of taking it, so who better to help than the sneaky tenno

B, Nef Anyo has control of fortuna but he cant really go bat S#&$ crazy on it an kill off all the workers, as a full out attack on it would lead to venus having no workers.

C. so sounds like you did not listen to what was being said during the intro quest. Eudico became Nef Anyos floor boss to mediate issues an try an make things easyier for her people. She got tired of losing so many people in the fight that didn't seem like was getting anywhere. Tenno came an helped to rekindle the rebelious spirit.