More Warframe Weapons similar to Garuda's Talons

[Naturesocks]

Hello everyone.

Garuda is the first Warframe with an exalted weapon which is not activated by an ability, but by not equipping a melee weapon. I was thinking if not other Warframes could have one, too. It could be used like a normal weapon and also as a "stat stick" for abilities.

As an example, i would suggest Atlas. He has a ability - Landslide - which uses melee mods from his equipped melee weapon to make Landslide stronger. If he had a exalted weapon like Garuda's Talons (E.g. Atlas' Fists), he wouldn't need a weapon that is only there for mods. This could give players the option to use a melee weapon with any mods and still have other melee mods for Landslide. As a bonus, they could use Atlas' exalted weapon as a melee weapon by not equipping melee weapons, similar to Garuda.

The only downside on this would be that, there will not be any Rivens for those exalted weapons, but in my opinion it would be fine. This problem could be solved by making the weapons decent in combat. Not every weapon needs a Riven to be good in combat.

To be clear: I don't mean that every exalted weapon should be used as a normal weapon. So no Valkyr's Talons as a melee weapon like Garuda's Talons. Those should stay as a ability, in my opinion.

For other exalted weapons i would suggest:

• Khora's whip
• Gara's (glass)sword
• (Have you other ideas?)

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

No. Just let Garudas thing be Garudas thing.

Edited January 17, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Duality52]

5 hours ago, Naturesocks said:

As an example, i would suggest Atlas. He has a ability - Landslide - which uses melee mods from his equipped melee weapon to make Landslide stronger. If he had a exalted weapon like Garuda's Talons (E.g. Atlas' Fists), he wouldn't need a weapon that is only there for mods. This could give players the option to use a melee weapon with any mods and still have other melee mods for Landslide. As a bonus, they could use Atlas' exalted weapon as a melee weapon by not equipping melee weapons, similar to Garuda.

We can do better than that, make this mod usable in PVP and buff the numbers too:

[Gurpgork]

The problem with Garuda’s passive is that it’s just another weapon, and not even one that has especially strong synergy with Garuda’s kit. It’s not even the best claw weapon you can put in her hands (Using Seeking Talons to get guaranteed slash procs from the Venka Prime is much scarier than what Garuda’s Talons can do). Giving that passive to other Warframes really just copy/pastes that problem.

I would much rather that we get some “signature” weapons changed to be like the Cobra and Crane: it’s its own weapon, and is usable with any Warframe you want, but it has a unique passive that interacts with only the Warframe that favors it. 

Prime example: Tekko. The description literally says that it’s Atlas’s signature weapon. It already exits, and it’s perfectly usable. So give it an interesting passive that augments Atlas’s gameplay. Like make it reset the duration of Landslide’s cast combo, or something cool like that. Astilla? Let Gara blind enemies hit by its explosions. Nami Skyla? Add its slide attack damage to Tidal Surge.

Then instead of just being one more weapon in the game, we end up with something that actually changes how both the weapon and the Warframe are used. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gurpgork

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

The problem with Garuda’s passive is that it’s just another weapon, and not even one that has especially strong synergy with Garuda’s kit. It’s not even the best claw weapon you can put in her hands (Guaranteed slash procs from the Venka Prime is much scarier than what Garuda’s Talons can do). Giving that passive to other Warframes really just copy/pastes that problem 

Just for note, claw stances do the guaranteed slash procs, venkas thing is the 75% instead of 50% combo levels. Her claws are the highest range ones thus realistically the best for generic use (for some reason having almost a meter more range than venka prime, despite not even having 40% more length in terms of model from fist end to claw tip).

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

6 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

 

I agree with this.

Having these weapons for the sake of having weapons is meaningless when they already have signature weapons themed to specific frames. I've argued for a while that exalted weapons (passive or not) should provide something unique to the kit other than simply damage. If all they are doing is damage then a point will come where another weapon can make the ability obsolete.

[NinjaZeku]

18 hours ago, Naturesocks said:

It could be used [...] as a "stat stick" for abilities.

This, please.

I want my cake and eat it too ability usage and regular weapon modding not to interfere with one another,
especially not when a solution to that problem already exists on other Frames.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Garuda's talons are her Passive, not an Ability Weapon. The Ability Weapons (not Exalted, Exalted Blade wasn't even the first one) are there because they're full abilities that have a cost to them. Garuda's talons are there because they look cool and people whined about her abilities not using them enough.

This thread has come up literally sixteen times since her release in different forms, I wish people would just let frames have a function without expecting it to be applicable to others.

I can understand it with mechanics, people want to know why you can't shoot into Snowglobe when you can shoot into Mass Vitrify (hint to them: because Vitrify is a weaker ability at base and needs functions like that to make it better), but at least that's something where two frames do something directly comparable and yet different.

Garuda's Talons affect none of her abilities, they just exist when you attempt to take off a melee weapon and ruin your levelling runs on the Nagantaka when you try to use her to level her signature weapon, since the Affinity Share gets diluted.

[NinjaZeku]

12 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

just let frames have a function without expecting it to be applicable to others

If an improvement was added to one thing, and would be of benefit to something else, why not?

Again, I mostly want this for abilities that scale with weapon Mods,
I couldn't care less about (but also seriously don't see any problem with) e.g. Atlas having a special Fist thing.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

9 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

(Guaranteed slash procs from the Venka Prime is much scarier than what Garuda’s Talons can do).

The Venka Prime does not have guaranteed Slash procs. Garuda's Talons are status beasts. On top of having the highest base damage and range of all claws

[Gurpgork]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

The Venka Prime does not have guaranteed Slash procs. Garuda's Talons are status beasts. On top of having the highest base damage and range of all claws

I worded that badly. I was referring to Seeking Talons. 

To elaborate, high status chance is more or less lost when Garuda can force slash procs on every single hit with her ultimate. Crit, on the other hand, can massively amplify the impact of having slash procs. Getting an orange crit that procs slash with the Venka Prime will be stronger than getting two slash procs in the same hit with Garuda’s Talons. 

With all that being said, we can have the crit/status argument all we want, but the point is that the addition of Garuda’s Talons doesn’t at all change how she is played. They’re just another melee weapon. A good melee weapon, but one that still lacks unique identity and special synergy with Garuda’s kit. 

That’s why I pointed to Cobra and Crane as a better way to accomplish adding this sort of thing for other Warframes. Cobra and Crane does something for Baruuk that Silva/Aegis Prime can’t. And while the latter has stronger damage output overall, Cobra and Crane has a unique and special synergy with Baruuk’s kit. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gurpgork

[Teridax68]

I'd personally support the OP's suggestion, and in fact I'd go as far as to say every frame could have their own innate weapons. Garuda getting her own weapon is an innovation, not something that needs to restricted to her only because reasons, and could be made to carry over on many more frames who already use some sort of weapon in their kit, but can't be made to use that weapon on its own. I'd love to be able to use Khora's whip as a baseline, and still be able to use her current 1, just as I'd love to pop out some kind of laser weapon on Revenant, throw out fireballs as Ember, or fulfil my Zeus/Palpatine fantasy with Volt by either spraying out lightning or shooting it out in bolts.

Because every frame represents a theme, which itself does not necessarily resume itself to just 4 active abilities, there's much more room to explore on those themes, and innate weapons I think are a pristine opportunity to deliver more upon those archetypes. People keep asking for exalted weapons on frames they like, and exalted weapons also heavily feature in player concepts for warframe abilities (DE themselves use them frequently), so simply giving those frames innate weapons, even if they're not necessarily at exalted levels of power, would satisfy that player demand. In fact, even in the case of frames with exalted weapons, letting players access non-exalted versions of those weapons innately, while being able to use them to much greater effect with a specific ability, could make those frames much more complete: if Mesa's Regulators could be used as a standard pair of dual pistols, for example, and then used for Peacemaker in the manner we all know, Mesa's base gameplay would still be very much the same, but she'd offer that extra amount of player choice, which I see no reason to deny.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

If an improvement was added to one thing, and would be of benefit to something else, why not?

To that I respond with the third paragraph.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I can understand it with mechanics, people want to know why you can't shoot into Snowglobe when you can shoot into Mass Vitrify (hint to them: because Vitrify is a weaker ability at base and needs functions like that to make it better), but at least that's something where two frames do something directly comparable and yet different.

Mechanical, functional changes, those work. Gimmicks, like passives? No, just let it be.

2 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Again, I mostly want this for abilities that scale with weapon Mods

But how is this in any way better than what we already have? When you want to change things, there does need to be some kind of improvement to back it up. The weapons we have already are better than anything that you can add as a passive, case in point when you take the stats on Garuda's talons to other claw weapons and specifically the best claw weapons.

Adding ones that are better than existing weapons would just be power creep, and the modding for a stat-stick would be absolutely no different either. So nothing would change from this.

[NinjaZeku]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

how is this in any way better than what we already have?

Because then I can have, say, a Fistomancy weapon on Atlas properly build for max Landslide pwnage,
plus maybe a Glaive or whatever because I wanna have fun with that, all on the same loadout.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

the modding for a stat-stick would be absolutely no different

But that's my point, the stat stick would then be the "hidden" innate weapon,
you wouldn't need to cripple your actual Melee weapon with a build catering to the abilities fueled by it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

28 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Because then I can have, say, a Fistomancy weapon on Atlas properly build for max Landslide pwnage,
 plus maybe a Glaive or whatever because I wanna have fun with that, all on the same loadout.

But that's not how this would work at all.

It doesn't work that way with Garuda, for certain. When you have another weapon equipped, you do not still have Garuda's talons equipped, they are Unequipped. You wouldn't be able to use the Fist weapon for stats and then also equip another melee weapon.

They aren't Ability Weapons, they don't have a separate loadout slot. They are a passive equipped regular melee weapon.

[NinjaZeku]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But that's not how this would work at all.

DE can make it work like that. They have the technology.

[Gurpgork]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If Mesa's Regulators could be used as a standard pair of dual pistols, for example, and then used for Peacemaker in the manner we all know, Mesa's base gameplay would still be very much the same, but she'd offer that extra amount of player choice, which I see no reason to deny

That's kinda the problem with this suggestion, though. If Mesa's gameplay would be essentially the same, then what's the point? We'd get one set of extra dual pistols that only Mesa could use, even though they aren't necessarily going to be any better or even any different from other dual pistols in the game. The only real difference is that they'd be vaguely Mesa flavored. 

Maybe it would be one thing if they went in the melee slot or something so that you'd get your 50 HP and a third weapon, but other than that, if it doesn't change Mesa's gameplay, then why do it? We already have hundreds of weapons in this game, and 65 of them are dual pistols. Getting dual pistol #66, but only if you play Mesa doesn't exactly scream "fresh new player choice" to me. 

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

That's kinda the problem with this suggestion, though. If Mesa's gameplay would be essentially the same, then what's the point? We'd get one set of extra dual pistols that only Mesa could use, even though they aren't necessarily going to be any better or even any different from other dual pistols in the game. The only real difference is that they'd be vaguely Mesa flavored. 

Maybe it would be one thing if they went in the melee slot or something so that you'd get your 50 HP and a third weapon, but other than that, if it doesn't change Mesa's gameplay, then why do it? We already have hundreds of weapons in this game, and 65 of them are dual pistols. Getting dual pistol #66, but only if you play Mesa doesn't exactly scream "fresh new player choice" to me. 

Why not do it? It's a fun addition to the game that adds flavor to a frame and lets players immerse themselves even more fully into that frame's theme. If we're talking in pure pragmatic terms, it sells the frame even better, particularly since it's a cheap way of adding or advertizing weapons in a game using assets you already have. If Garuda can have her talons, why can't Mesa use her Regulators as regular dual pistols? They already have a mod table as well, so much of the work there is already done.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

DE can make it work like that. They have the technology.

But, and please think about this logically, what would anyone gain from that?

If what you're asking for is separate modding to make the abilities work like Ability Weapons, then they already said they aren't doing that when the Ability Weapon changes came around to give those specific things separate modding. Their usual comment of 'not on the table' was used. Also, it would be nothing but more power for no reason.

And if all you want is themed stat-sticks they won't be stronger than a regular stat-stick could be, because the regular weapons have things like the Venka Prime's combo scaling, or the Jaw Sword's Syndicate augment, the ability to have max-disposition Rivens, or just plain better base stats so that when you're not using the ability you can still use it as a good melee weapon.

There isn't anything to gain from this that isn't either unwarranted power creep or redundant.

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not do it?

When the answer to 'why do it?' is 'why not?' in a setting where somebody has to put in time and work to do it, then it's not a strong enough argument.

Mesa is already exceptionally popular among frames, there is no need to try and sell her harder, and here's a little fact for you:

The only reason that Mesa's Regulators are powerful is the ability, constantly ramping up their crit and fire rate. The base stats of the guns aren't even as good as existing Prime Secondary Pistols. Why would you literally give her worse guns when pressing 4 is not only quicker, it gives auto-aim and instantly better damage? This suggestion is just... the epitome of redundant.

[Teridax68]

37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

When the answer to 'why do it?' is 'why not?' in a setting where somebody has to put in time and work to do it, then it's not a strong enough argument.

You have read the rest of my post, and should know that that was not my only answer, and that in fact my point was that it would be a cheap and effective way to add content and value to the game, and give players something they clearly want, as noted by the many threads asking for more exalted weapons and more Garuda-like innate weapons (including a thread asking to wield Mesa's Regulators as normal pistols not that long ago). The reason I opened with that was specifically because there seems to be this unspoken reason to avoid implement this, which I so far have yet to see. Isolating the literal first sentence of my reply and quote mining me to make it look like that was my only substantive reply is a disingenuous and hostile tactic, one that does not lead to productive discussion and only serves to misinform others.

37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Mesa is already exceptionally popular among frames, there is no need to try and sell her harder,

This is some rather short-sighted thinking, particularly at a time when Warframe has experienced significant metagame shifts that have drastically altered the viability of many frames (it's the main reason why Mesa is currently god-tier). The game will last far beyond this current meta, and if Mesa dips at any time then, this sort of feature would help her (and, by the way, I am in no way advocating for this feature to be exclusive to Mesa either). That kind of point is also utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or not to sell a frame: some players will buy frames because they're strong, for sure, but the prime point of attraction for a frame comes from their theme, and how they deliver upon said theme. If Mesa not only has a sweet gunslinger aesthetic and kit, but also comes with a free set of dual pistols to play with, that would certainly not harm her sales. 

37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

and here's a little fact for you:

The only reason that Mesa's Regulators are powerful is the ability, constantly ramping up their crit and fire rate. The base stats of the guns aren't even as good as existing Prime Secondary Pistols. Why would you literally give her worse guns when pressing 4 is not only quicker, it gives auto-aim and instantly better damage? This suggestion is just... the epitome of redundant.

... because one's an ability and the other's a weapon? Again, Garuda's talons aren't particularly special on their own, and they're not even part of an exalted weapon, but they're still widely popular just because they're an entire weapon of their own that are part of the frame, and used in one of her abilities. If Mesa's Regulators can be made into perfectly workable pistols without even contributing to power creep, that makes the job even easier than it is now, and would allow for players to experience more flavor from her without making her unbalanced. Again, I cited Mesa's Regulators as but one of many examples, so I don't even see what value there is in pretending that this suggestion targets her exclusively.

[Gurpgork]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It's a fun addition to the game that adds flavor to a frame and lets players immerse themselves even more fully into that frame's theme.

And I'm all for adding flavor to Warframes, I just don't think that Garuda's Talons accomplish that in anything beyond a surface-level way. I dislike the idea of innate weapons because Garuda's Talons are simultaneously restricted to one Warframe while playing exactly like every other claw weapon, differing only in stats. I don't like the idea of adding more passives like it because the one and only unique thing about Garuda's Talons is that only Garuda can use them. Adding it for the 37 other Warframes would be taking 37 existing weapons in the game and then making a copy of each of them, while shuffling the stats around a little along the way. 

Which is why I'm pointing so hard at Cobra and Crane as a much better version of this idea. The implications of having weapons that have unique synergies with a specific Warframe adds much more flavor and interest to the world of weapons and Warframes, and potentially opens the doors to as much new diversity as augment mods did. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

On 2019-01-17 at 1:00 PM, Naturesocks said:

Hello everyone.

Garuda is the first Warframe with an exalted weapon which is not activated by an ability, but by not equipping a melee weapon. I was thinking if not other Warframes could have one, too. It could be used like a normal weapon and also as a "stat stick" for abilities.

As an example, i would suggest Atlas. He has a ability - Landslide - which uses melee mods from his equipped melee weapon to make Landslide stronger. If he had a exalted weapon like Garuda's Talons (E.g. Atlas' Fists), he wouldn't need a weapon that is only there for mods. This could give players the option to use a melee weapon with any mods and still have other melee mods for Landslide. As a bonus, they could use Atlas' exalted weapon as a melee weapon by not equipping melee weapons, similar to Garuda.

The only downside on this would be that, there will not be any Rivens for those exalted weapons, but in my opinion it would be fine. This problem could be solved by making the weapons decent in combat. Not every weapon needs a Riven to be good in combat.

To be clear: I don't mean that every exalted weapon should be used as a normal weapon. So no Valkyr's Talons as a melee weapon like Garuda's Talons. Those should stay as a ability, in my opinion.

For other exalted weapons i would suggest:

• Khora's whip
• Gara's (glass)sword
• (Have you other ideas?)

 

Garudas weapon isnt exalted. Its pretty average. Venka is better as far as claws go.

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

And I'm all for adding flavor to Warframes, I just don't think that Garuda's Talons accomplish that in anything beyond a surface-level way. I dislike the idea of innate weapons because Garuda's Talons are simultaneously restricted to one Warframe while playing exactly like every other claw weapon, differing only in stats. I don't like the idea of adding more passives like it because the one and only unique thing about Garuda's Talons is that only Garuda can use them. Adding it for the 37 other Warframes would be taking 37 existing weapons in the game and then making a copy of each of them, while shuffling the stats around a little along the way. 

Which is why I'm pointing so hard at Cobra and Crane as a much better version of this idea. The implications of having weapons that have unique synergies with a specific Warframe adds much more flavor and interest to the world of weapons and Warframes, and potentially opens the doors to as much new diversity as augment mods did. 

This is a fair assessment, and I agree that the way forward should likely be to give any future weapon of this kind more flavor, as well as perhaps some better synergy with the frame. I fully agree that Garuda's talons could become just a tiny bit more interesting if they had some special synergy with her kit, even if that synergy wouldn't necessarily make it the strongest weapon to have at all times. I personally don't really like the Cobra and Crane's hidden passive, and generally I don't think general-use weapons should have forced synergy with specific frames, companions, etc., but that sort of effect could be perfectly fine on a frame-only weapon, imo.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a fair assessment, and I agree that the way forward should likely be to give any future weapon of this kind more flavor, as well as perhaps some better synergy with the frame. I fully agree that Garuda's talons could become just a tiny bit more interesting if they had some special synergy with her kit, even if that synergy wouldn't necessarily make it the strongest weapon to have at all times. I personally don't really like the Cobra and Crane's hidden passive, and generally I don't think general-use weapons should have forced synergy with specific frames, companions, etc., but that sort of effect could be perfectly fine on a frame-only weapon, imo.

Would be nice if having them out made her first and second do more damage. But it is also good during weapon specific sorties. Otherwise, it’s just a passive. Passives are not meant to be some secret 5th ability. Passives are like rank 1/2-1/4. Sometimes useful. Sometimes not. Most warframes’ passives are useless. Rhino is slowed a lot by his passive. Be nice if his passive was affected by how high he fell from. But point is, whining about a warframe’s passive is a complete waste of time and energy. 

[NinjaZeku]

3 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Rhino is slowed a lot by his passive.

You don't need a heavy landing to trigger the shockwave, just slide after falling a good distance.

3 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

whining about a warframe’s passive is a complete waste of time and energy

We shouldn't give feedback on things that are lacking, in the Feedback section? 100% disagree.