In praise of MR, one of DE's most underrated ideas

[Hououza]

The Mastery Rank, or MR system, we all know it, as it forms one of the core backbones of Warframe.

A lot of people complain about it, specifically the time gating for MR tests, or how people to this day use it as a form of elitism.

Despite those things Mastery Ranks represent a thematic and practical triumph for DE, albeit one that took them a long time to fully realise the potential of.

In the majority of games, such as Destiny, character level is your primary measure of progress. As your Guardian ranks up you gain access to new abilities and classes, but if you want to try another class then you have to start a new character and do everything from the beginning, with some leeway to allow you to transfer weapons and armour between characters on your account.

Warframe does away with this entirely, in so far as you are free to build another frame and switch between them at any time between missions. Thus players are given the freedom to change to any role that a frame can fulfil, without needing to have multiple different characters.

Naturally, you still have to level each new frame, and there is an argument here to say how is that different from levelling multiple characters in other games?

My answer is: Mastery Rank affects the mod capacity you start with available on any new piece of equipment you obtain.

Spoiler

Up until the point at which you complete The Second Dream, Mastery Rank doesn't really make sense. However, following the revelation of the existence of the operator it all falls into place.

Mastery Rank is basically a representation of the skill of the operator at using the tools of the Tenno. Every time you master something for the first time, that is essentially the operator familiarising themselves with that piece of equipment, be it a weapon or a Warframe. It makes sense therefore that forma does not give you more mastery, as in essence all you are doing is fine tuning the item, rather than learning to master it all over again.

I find it interesting that Anthem seems to have adopted a similar approach, in that the Javelins themselves do not appear to gain levels, instead it is the pilot who levels up, which means more freedom for the player to change what equipment they want to use without having to replay the same content multiple times for each new character.

Personally I think it has proved to be one of the best ideas DE have had in Warframe, and for all it's faults it represents a solid way of promoting player choice, whilst still giving a mechanism for progression.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

The real brilliance of MR is that it conditions folks to grind for/buy complete junk like the 3 identical k-drives to get the MR out of them.

The starting capacity change is one of the best things DE has ever done, but that's only because we're stuck with this tedious level, forma, repeat grind.

* Honorable mention goes to gilding as a further incentive to buy a prefab Moa, Kitgun, or Zaw to skip a leveling pass while completely defeating any possible "fun" of a modular system.

In Monster Hunter World I can build whatever I have the materials for, slot the skills I want from my available decorations, and immediately enjoy using it to full effect...there's a reason I played MHW 4 times more than WF last year.

So basically I reject your premise...MR might be good for DE in order to keep people playing in the absence of meaningful/engaging new content...but it's not good for players as the only way to increase your MR contributes to folks spending a lot of their "play" time psuedo-leeching at the Draco du jour because of the nonsense way affinity works.

[taiiat]

i feel like you've said it's brilliant because it's less bad than some other things. rather than it's brilliant because it's actually something good for a Video Game without any major issues of its own.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

In Monster Hunter World I can build whatever I have the materials for, slot the skills I want from my available decorations, and immediately enjoy using it to full effect...

QFT :D

[Zelmen]

The only thing I feel could help the MR is raising the low MR caps. Let the new players get 5k caps until MR 4-5 and then use the formula. Some might say it forces new players to explore other parts of the game. I think it hurts the game a little in the start. New players don't understand MR, don't grind MR and, may be failing MR test from being so new.

[OniDax]

I don't like the Mastery System because it is designed around collecting stuff. I know Warframe is a looter, but I don't think progression should be tied to how much stuff you get. It's a system that rewards you not based on your time spent playing the game (killing enemies, completing missions, hacking panels, etc.) but on how many warframes, weapons, vehicles, and companions you rank up. I don't like that system because it doesn't really reward player choice and play styles. It rewards those who max out everything in the game.

There are some warframes and weapons that I have no interest in. Yet, the only way to progress is to rank up those weapons. It doesn't reward you for continued use of content you have already maxed out. I don't think that's a good system for progression, and I don't think that's a good system for any sort of future endgame. If the game would continue to reward Mastery Points for XP gained by using already maxed-out content, then it would directly reward gameplay, and players would always feel like their time is being rewarded.

In case someone thinks that would discourage the acquisition and use of new content, well, all I have to say is this: If the majority of players don't want to use certain content items, then that is a problem for DE because they designed it. That would also push DE to develop more content that is appealing to players and would discourage them from pushing out mastery fodder. It's ultimately a win-win situation for DE, players, and Warframe overall in that regard. So, I'm against the Mastery System as it currently stands and I don't believe it is some great underrated idea.

Edited February 19, 2019 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

57 minutes ago, Hououza said:

or how people to this day use it as a form of elitism

Not that I disagree with your post, but I feel the need to point out I see like 90% people trashtalking high ranking players and maybe 10% actually elitist trash players. And I should know. I am a MR26, help tenno out and give advice and can clear any part of the game, but I also hate the guts of a player I once did a raid with. Just that one elitist stain, and one or another here and there.

Another point who most will disagree because they heard someone else say it: MR does matter a bit. Before the "hurr-durr you're wrong" let me just say that all the gear, all the time-gating in the game and need for wiki makes a player take a lot of time to reach a MR23+ level. In that time a player either learns his stuff, or has that MR23+ with non-formad gear and gets shot down by the first bullet out of a crewman in sortie. Sure it doesn't mean much, but it's also not meaningless. In a mission you're far more likely to see a newb low MR player and a pro high MR player. Exceptions happen, those un-formad (because you can't fake the forma effort) high MR slobs are out there, as there are truly skilled newbies, as there are high MR players playing in new alt accounts for whatever reason, or playing on a friend's low MR account to help.

All I'm saying is that there's some hatred towards either side when there's no need for it. It's very relative. This coming from a respected (In my alliance and clan) high MR player. It's not by accident that my alliance's newbies come to me seeking for help or other alliance leaders/older/experienced/high MR players.

[Soldier1312]

I strongly disagree. MR system gives close to none progression. Your MR is nothing more than "how many times you've been to exp farm" counter. If mastering weapon would be something like, mentioned by you Destiny's weapon catalysts - complete challenges with given weapon to unlock its full potential. (and by the way "character" level means little in mentioned title, while all that matters is level of your equipment).

So in short: MR level is based on brainless grind more than it is based on actual "mastery". Basically pointless number to make players feel little better.

[veloSylraptor]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

The real brilliance of MR is that it conditions folks to grind for/buy complete junk like the 3 identical k-drives to get the MR out of them.

The starting capacity change is one of the best things DE has ever done, but that's only because we're stuck with this tedious level, forma, repeat grind.

* Honorable mention goes to gilding as a further incentive to buy a prefab Moa, Kitgun, or Zaw to skip a leveling pass while completely defeating any possible "fun" of a modular system.

In Monster Hunter World I can build whatever I have the materials for, slot the skills I want from my available decorations, and immediately enjoy using it to full effect...there's a reason I played MHW 4 times more than WF last year.

So basically I reject your premise...MR might be good for DE in order to keep people playing in the absence of meaningful/engaging new content...but it's not good for players as the only way to increase your MR contributes to folks spending a lot of their "play" time psuedo-leeching at the Draco du jour because of the nonsense way affinity works.

I agree with the above, I'd also add that MR grinding is the single most torturous grinds I've ever experienced. Its not the grind I have a problem with, mind you. Its being forced to grind with stuff(frames/weapons) other than the ones I like and want to use.

Cause if I could do all the grinding with the stuff I actually enjoy, then its play, an enjoyable experience I actually play video games for. As opposed to work, where I do it just to unlock the weapons I want and that's it, never again. I only hope they don't start locking the cinematic quests behind some stupidly high MR, as that is one of the content I care most about.

I would agree with the OP's point that being able to freely change your setup in terms of frames and weapons is a good thing. However, being forced to spend time with frames and weapons you don't like and will never use beyond the needed affinity to unlock the stuff you actually want is bad.

Edited February 19, 2019 by veloSylraptor
Structure, punctuation, etc

[torint_man]

Man, Y'all are way too close minded. "Forced to spend time with frames and weapons I don't like", so what?. A hell of a lot of stuff you won't truly know if you like till you try it. Sure, there are a lot of objectively inferior weapons that you pump and dump, and non prime versions of frames you already have the primes of, but a lot of weapons have special gimmicks or playstyles you won't know for certain you like, and as for frames, if you aren't talking about the non prime version of frames, you are really close minded. It's impossible to say anything for certain about how you like a frame if you haven't leveled them to 30 before. 

Also, y'all are acting like you are compelled to go to Hydron to get any MR whatsoever, but you can easily just have one of your weapon slots with an MR fodder you never have to actually use when you aren't doing high level stuff. You can hardly call that "Forced to spend time".

Sure, it isn't perfect due to things like gilding and K-drives, but y'all are making it out to be like it's some burdensome time vacuum grind. Oh no, you can't use the same dozen weapons and frames for the entirety of your play time, what a travesty. 

[(XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE]

Honestly, the MR system is trash.  Utter trash.

 

It is a system that does not reward you for enjoying the game, but rather for slogging through ranking up item after item, frame after frame, instead of rewarding you for actually playing the star chart with a favorite frame and set of weapons.

 

Go and beat Alad V in a maxed frame and gear?  Big whoop.  no XP to you, do not pass go, go suck a fat D.  Sit in Draco for 30 minutes and level up your new stuff?  Showered with XP....literall swimming in it.  To me that is a poor design choice, to get nothing experience wise out of your maxed stuff versus unleveled equipment.

 

(Honestly, and this is a fringe argument to have here, but Im not a fan of the mod thing really, as unless you have a few forma's and and a very specific set of mods, you are nothing.  Nobody seems to be able to live without Redirection, Prime flow, Prime Continuity, Rage, Streamline, Overextended, etc etc.  Or Lethal torrent, Hornet strike, dual status mods....or Shred/Vile acceleration, basically ANY multishot mod is needed to status stuff.  We cannot live without these mods, and if they disappeared overnight there would be a riot because suddenly every-bodies power is cut by half or more.  No longer can you solo 30+ minutes in a survival or defense, it would have to go back to how it used to be, where you wanted a good defense frame to guard the objective, or you needed great CC frames to stop the onslaught on survival ad your DPS frames to do the killing so you didn't get overwhelmed.  Literally without the same set of mods, that every single person uses, you are garbo.  Weak.  Powerless in ways that you aren't used to.  No longer can you nuke the tile.  No longer can you CC everything within 50m.  Your gun no longer fires through 4 guys in a row, with 120% multishot and does Blast and Corrosive, now it just shoots regular old bullets or bolts or energy beams.)

 

The MR system does not reward you for playing the game to have fun.  It only rewards you to grind over and over and over to get a new rank on a meaningless system to unlock other gear behind a number wall to further grind on.  Hell, you supposedly lose affinity when you die, but where did that affinity come from?  There is no live rank system where it is calculated off how proficient you were in the mission, and subsequently across all your missions, where if you kept dying you might see that rank go down and fluctuate a bit.  Death is meaningless.  Death used to have a physical cost in the form of 4 revives.  Any more and they cost plat.  Granted that was a horrible idea as well, but it made you less apt to run off and be a hero during missions back before we had these god tier mods.  Nowadays everyone is a walking battle tank full to the brim with overpowered weapons and equipment so strong and abilities so utterly deadly that the only way to balance it was nullifiers and grossly over applied scaling.  There is no tact when playing.  No special tricks to make the mission easier, its literally spawn in, energy pad or operator bubble, gain energy, spam abilities and melee swing for dear life and there isn't a single enemy in the entire game that won\t crumble before you for playing so recklessly. When I started I used to creep my way around missions and find places to choke enemy groups up in, and my friends all used equipment that complimented out play style, where someone crown controlled, someone had high damage but low efficiency, and others were using strong weapons with Volts shield up to shoot through to stop you from getting beat up by heavy gunners and bombards.  Add to all of this the Mastery Rank system which doesn't even teach you new methods to use in the game, it doesn't reward you for trying a different approach and succeeding, it just asks you to grind your ass off, and then grind your ass off some more.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, Hououza said:

Mastery Rank affects the mod capacity you start with available on any new piece of equipment you obtain

it does now*. a long time ago it only said how many things you had levelled and gave a rather skewed idea of how skilled a player was (not reliable enough to properly judge a player ofc). since then DE has improved the system and made it far more beneficial to increase MR by changing requirements on and buffing weapons, and offering perks like more Void trace Capacity and higher Daily Rep caps for Syndicates. that said the system is not without flaws..

the main problem is the common misconception I hinted to before: the idea that High MR = High Skill level and/or many hours invested, which is usually never the case. levelling weapons and frames is easy and doesn't take long, especially with boosters and liberal use of farming spots. It's hard to make people drop this idea, but when you've seen enough high-rank players who are trash ( back in the day, some would call them "Draco Babies", referencing one of the most used farming spots of the old starchart), it soon dawns on you. hours played isn't a reliable indicator either, they might have spent all that time below level 30 for all you know.

[Hypernaut1]

Man, the negativity! Lol. 

How quick does a "this is why I love X" turn into "this is why I hate X and it should never exist"

Edited February 20, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[Aldain]

MR's problem is it has diminishing returns past about MR 7-10.

I'm currently sitting on MR13 and 1/2 on Switch, and outside of maybe a handful of weapons locked behind MR 14 and some primes, its hard to work up the desire to level up more gear that I won't be using for more than 30 levels of exp.

The weapon balance and the fact that there are so many "MR Fodder" weapons are what I blame for these diminishing returns. It creates this issue of "Why am I building this Frame/Weapon/Sentinel/etc. when I'm just going to wind up throwing it away once it's leveled up".

The basic purpose of MR is to encourage diversifying playstyles, and it does succeed at this at lower MR because new options keep unlocking, but as MR goes higher there becomes less of an incentive to use/grind for new things because oftentimes those new things are worse than other lower MR/cost options.

As long as "MR fodder" is a thing these diminishing returns as players will almost always gravitate to the path of least resistance or most effectiveness.

And before somebody brings it up, no, Rivens aren't something that I personally would ever grind MR for; some Rivens having insane MR blocks just makes them that much more troublesome for me and I'm sure there are at least some players who agree with me, though I cede that this part is purely subjective.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Aldain said:

And before somebody brings it up, no, Rivens aren't something that I personally would ever grind MR for; some Rivens having insane MR blocks just makes them that much more troublesome for me and I'm sure there are at least some players who agree with me, though I cede that this part is purely subjective.

Come on man, I am sure you are higher than MR 16, which isn't even hard to get in the first place.

[Aldain]

Just now, Datam4ss said:

Come on man, I am sure you are higher than MR 16, which isn't even hard to get in the first place.

Nope, MR 14 is likely where I'll stop and I just sell all my veiled Rivens for plat.

A triple decker of RNG with grinding for a resource used for more RNG re-rolling on the side is not in any way my idea of a good time.

[(NSW)Joewoof]

I love the MR system, and how it encourages me to keep trying Warframe's huge collection of weapons and companions. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Makes this one of my favorite games ever.

It's interesting how the exact same reason is hated by some players.

[rune_me]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

In Monster Hunter World I can build whatever I have the materials for, slot the skills I want from my available decorations, and immediately enjoy using it to full effect...there's a reason I played MHW 4 times more than WF last year.

Monster Hunter World honestly has the best farm, build, farm again game-loop of any looter I have ever played. It's extremely focused and just really well thought out.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I think way too many people blow MR way out of proportion.  

 

Way.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

I think way too many people blow MR way out of proportion.  

 

Way.

I agree. I never felt like it forced me to do anything. More like a badge of progress than anything

[OniDax]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I agree. I never felt like it forced me to do anything. More like a badge of progress than anything

It's not that it forces players to do stuff. It's that it only rewards them for acquiring and maxing out new items. It doesn't directly reward gameplay, because it doesn't reward gameplay with maxed out items (as in, once you max out an, any additional XP/affinity gain will not count towards Mastery Rank). And by rewarding, I mean rewarding with Mastery points.

Edited February 20, 2019 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Falconer777]

Grinding a lot of unnecessary weapons to increase the rank is, IMHO, not the greatest pleasure in the game. As quite rightly noted above - this is work, not entertainment.

[veloSylraptor]

4 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Man, the negativity! Lol. 

How quick does a "this is why I love X" turn into "this is why I hate X and it should never exist"

I know it sounds like a lot of negativity, but it really comes from a place of love, not of hatred. Take my main statement for example:

"MR grinding is the single most torturous grinds I've ever experienced."

Implicit in that statement, is a glowing praise for the rest of the game. Why else would I suffer through it if I didn't enjoy the game enough that I consider it worth suffering through? I love everything else about the game, everything but the MR grind.

 

And for people saying, "just have one of your weapon slots with an MR fodder."

No

It deprives me the option of using what is supposed to be in that slot; most importantly, all the weapons I equip are part of the style, being forced to use other weapon breaks the style, and that is unacceptable.

You don't get to decide what other people find acceptable, you don't get to decide that not being able to use the same dozen weapons and frames for the entirety of my playtime is not a travesty.

And you certainly don't get to decide that people should be open minded about trying new weapons and frames. This game doesn't exist in a vacuum, we've had prior knowledge and experiences from other games. We know what we like, we know what we expect, and we know the experience we're after. So do us a favor, don't assume we can't possibly know if we would like a weapon before try it, cause we certainly can. I'm sure you don't have to try sticking your hand into the mouth of an alligator to figure out its a bad idea.

[DerGreif2]

"Oh God I have to try out new things and frames"

In other games you just run missions over and over again. Experience is not just a number that pops out of an enemy it's in Warframe really "experience". Yes it is a grind and if you have found your favorite weapon and frame you dont enjoy it as much but thats the point. You have a little but to work to increase to the next MR even if this means run hydron 20 times for the just XP farmer it's still more interactive than other game level systems.

Edited February 20, 2019 by DerGreif2

[DerGreif2]

8 minutes ago, veloSylraptor said:

It deprives me the option of using what is supposed to be in that slot; most importantly, all the weapons I equip are part of the style, being forced to use other weapon breaks the style, and that is unacceptable.

 You don't get to decide what other people find acceptable, you don't get to decide that not being able to use the same dozen weapons and frames for the entirety of my playtime is not a travesty. 

Dont expect you wear it longer than one or two games. There is hydron for that kind of people. Also you dont HAVE to increase your MR. You can do all kind of things with MR 6 or so. If you want to unlock new weapons  then yes. It's a lot better than other level systems.

Edited February 20, 2019 by DerGreif2

[veloSylraptor]

14 minutes ago, DerGreif2 said:

Dont expect you wear it longer than one or two games. There is hydron for that kind of people. Also you dont HAVE to increase your MR. You can do all kind of things with MR 6 or so. If you want to unlock new weapons  then yes. It's a lot better than other level systems.

I don't have to anymore, you're right about that. I did have to do it before I managed to unlock the weapons I want, and I sincerely hope I won't have to do it for future quest content.

And I'm not disputing the benefits it has over other level systems, I'm pointing out that parts of the implementation is bad because it has a good chance of forcing people to play the game in a way they find most unenjoyable.