Where's the 'Ninja' part?

[Skyray-us]

My Fellow Tenno:

     I've been playing since January 10th and have over 260 hours in. I love the game and I consider myself new.  I am having a bit of an issue though. The game was described by many as a "Space Ninja" experience and as a "Shooter-Looter" by others. One of the great things I'm encountering is that the mechanics and environment in many ways can support bot of those concepts and play styles. My problem is that the 'Ninja' part that involves stealth, being undetected and leaving a mystery behind (along with a few bodies) for our enemies to ponder feels missing in many regards. Most of the content vids I've seen and PUG missions I've been on have been like speed runs. They feel and look like superhero movies played in fast-forward. It can be a bit immersion breaking for me. When I solo, I like to take my time and enjoy the extraordinary environs, artwork and atmosphere the devs have created. I also like to do things at a pace closer to a spy movie than a military assault flick. A lot of this has to do more with the players than the game but, what I have noticed is that there doesn't seem to be many rewards for getting missions done that way.  An example would be when we trip alarms. Other than having solve a code to reset them, there doesn't seem to be much of a consequence unless we are in a spy mission.

    It's possible that it's there and I just haven't encountered it yet. If that's not the case, can we expect to see scenarios or missions that reward being undetected to a greater degree than present? Right now, most competent players can speed through the content killing almost everything in their path as they fly through the air do a lot of super human parkour and jumping puzzles. Are there any missions that give you higher rewards for a lower body count (and leaving no living witnesses of course) while scouting/scanning an area or locating a piece of vital something or other? I know that not everyone goes for that play style but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of results or gains for those of us who do. It just seems like the game is so well set up to do that and it's unfortunate that I haven't really seen or felt it yet.

[NekrosMancer]

I guess the main issue is that, at the moment, the game "rewards" players who rush through content quickly more so than those who are methodical. Considering the bulk of WF is RNG drops, and grinding resources, people who go to certain planets or nodes to grind or get a specific drop don't want to spend 10-20 mins each time, over and over, all while alerts are popping up in the background, sorties are going on, invasions are up, etc.

It's not that you can't be a space ninja; it's that the game's nature favors people rushing and cheesing through content, and you get somewhat punished for not following that logic.

[Skyray-us]

NekrosMancer, that's what I've been thinking which leads me to suspect that there are opportunities here for different mission types that are being missed. Here's an example:

Scouting missions where you have to infiltrate a facility undetected, scan an object or collect a sample ( maybe place remote sensors) and escape to deliver your findings back to Lotus or another NPC. You could get cash rewards, a special item of some kind ad affinity, but the rewards go down each time you are spotted or have to fight. This kind of mission could have been a prelude to something like the Fosa mission on Venus where we had to kill the Jackal. Someone had to spot it first.  This is just an idea as an example but I think you and the others can see what I mean.

 

[Zareek]

I think the space ninja aspect of the game, disappeared a long time ago. We are more space warriors.

[(XBOX)Dredd1973]

You could play only spy or rescue missions for more 'ninja' time.

[Umbriellan]

" where is the "ninja" part ?" - well... there is Ash, the "only" true ninja in this game.

Like you, I regret the absence of the splinter-cell kind of style that I thought there was in this game (at the begining, I played very carefuly & slowly - so imagine my confusion when a World-on-fire Ember prime appeared to me in my first public mission...).

I think we could hope for an enemy-detection rework, with some mechanics around it when we (eventualy) get an open-world Sedna; where if you are detected, the entire zone would be blocked & reinforced with big units as we have today on Fortuna...
+ I don't think we would only have to run-&-gun with the New War... it seems impossible to me to win this Sentient War without trying to infiltrate / hack / sabotage in undetected operations... 

[Fiftycentis]

45 minutes ago, Umbriellan said:

Like you, I regret the absence of the splinter-cell kind of style that I thought there was in this game (at the begining, I played very carefuly & slowly - so imagine my confusion when a World-on-fire Ember prime appeared to me in my first public mission...).

Same, started playing soloing mission, with Loki as starter frame and cernos as main weapon. It was really a ninja thing.
Then i started to pub, and saw all those players with frames and weapons able to kill tons of enemies in seconds.

Now i still play mainly Loki, soloing as much as possible, but the ninja thing in warframe is kinda dead, even in more stealthy mission like spies and rescues, you see really few players able to to them using all the hidden ways because they want to be fast and take the short way (i look at you, random player that tries to open the main door in sortie rescue and dies under enemy fire)

[Klaleara]

53 minutes ago, Umbriellan said:

" where is the "ninja" part ?" - well... there is Ash, the "only" true ninja in this game.

Like you, I regret the absence of the splinter-cell kind of style that I thought there was in this game (at the begining, I played very carefuly & slowly - so imagine my confusion when a World-on-fire Ember prime appeared to me in my first public mission...).

I think we could hope for an enemy-detection rework, with some mechanics around it when we (eventualy) get an open-world Sedna; where if you are detected, the entire zone would be blocked & reinforced with big units as we have today on Fortuna...
+ I don't think we would only have to run-&-gun with the New War... it seems impossible to me to win this Sentient War without trying to infiltrate / hack / sabotage in undetected operations... 

Ivara is pretty ninja like too.

[DerGreif2]

The title is not Ninjaframe its Warframe. Its less Nija and more Warriors since the beginning.

[MagPrime]

Are we talking Hollywood ninjas, or historical ninjas?

Turns out, significant difference. 

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Are we talking Hollywood ninjas, or historical ninjas?

Turns out, significant difference. 

Very true. There are many examples of Hollywood Ninjas in Warframe.  There are only maybe 2 or 3 that can qualify in the historical aspect and even then only in solo mode.  

5 hours ago, Skyray-us said:

It's possible that it's there and I just haven't encountered it yet. If that's not the case, can we expect to see scenarios or missions that reward being undetected to a greater degree than present? Right now, most competent players can speed through the content killing almost everything in their path as they fly through the air do a lot of super human parkour and jumping puzzles. Are there any missions that give you higher rewards for a lower body count (and leaving no living witnesses of course) while scouting/scanning an area or locating a piece of vital something or other? I know that not everyone goes for that play style but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of results or gains for those of us who do. It just seems like the game is so well set up to do that and it's unfortunate that I haven't really seen or felt it yet.

The Ninja aspect of the game is there.  It's just that due to the playstyles that most players use to play the game, you will have to select solo mode to experience it in most cases.  I myself love the playstyle that you've described and been using it as my main method of playing this game since I started 3 years ago.  

Currently Warframe doesn't really have any in-game incentives to play in a stealthy or even tactical manner.  There is currently only one benefit to this playstyle and that is using the stealth multipliers to quickly rank up gear and weapons.  Before anyone tries to say this method only works for melee, I have used this very method with both Primaries and Secondaries to great effect just by slapping on a silence mod.  

[Teridax68]

Unfortunately, the "Ninja" component has deteriorated over time in Warframe, at the very least in PUGs. This is due to three factors:

•  Currently, it's simply more efficient to blaze through missions without any regard for stealth, because there is currently no real bonus or incentive for completing most missions undetected. There is also no punishment for detection in all but a handful of missions, and players can easily murder anything in sight, so going out guns blazing is also far easier.
• A whole bunch of content is simply impossible to complete through stealth. This includes mission types like Defense or Survival, but also more recent content like Sanctuary Onslaught or most bounties in the Plains and the Vallis, which instead encourage more horde mode-style combat.
• Stealth isn't quite functional right now. Short of picking a warframe that goes constantly invisible (or using a special ability you'll access later on), it's practically impossible to move through a level without getting detected, because there aren't really any tools to anticipate where enemies are facing outside of directly seeing them, and many tilesets have only one path through a room, meaning the player cannot do anything except get spotted. Finishers for some reason alert nearby enemies since a patch a few years ago, making stealth melee kills almost impossible, and on top of that it's very difficult to get rid of corpses, which also causes stealth players to accidentally trip the alarms just because some random mook spawned and ran into a corpse the player left on their way three rooms behind.

To fix this, we'd need quite a few changes to happen. For starters, we'd need fixes and additions to the stealth system so that the player can actually participate in stealth without getting detected for no valid reason (e.g. no longer having stealth finishers alert enemies, but also having stealth kills disintegrate corpses instantly), as well as better incentives to participate in stealth gameplay (e.g. access to rare rewards when completing a run undetected, maybe even irreversible and more impactful alarms). Eventually, though, we'd also need changes to tilesets to give us side paths to every room, so that we can move undetected if we play right, as well as more missions that play on the ninja component to Warframe, and give the whole magic warrior side a rest for once. Who knows how long that might take, though, so in the meantime your best ticket to experiencing ninja gameplay is to try to solo Spy missions.

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

because there aren't really any tools to anticipate where enemies are facing outside of directly seeing them,

Their direction shows up on the mini-map if you have enemy radar equipped.  

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

. Finishers for some reason alert nearby enemies since a patch a few years ago, making stealth melee kills almost impossible, and on top of that it's very difficult to get rid of corpses, which also causes stealth players to accidentally trip the alarms just because some random mook spawned and ran into a corpse the player left on their way three rooms behind.

This is what channeled melee for.  A channeled melee stealth kill completely removes the body from being seen.  

Just giving you corrections to some things that you seemed to not have known fellow Tenno.  😄 

Edited February 25, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Hobie-wan]

FWIW, the Lua spy mission and some riven unlocks require you to be sneaky or methodical and precise.

[bottledbob]

Maybe you could get double drops for remaining undetected?

[(NSW)Joewoof]

4 hours ago, bottledbob said:

Maybe you could get double drops for remaining undetected?

That's a pretty cool idea: maybe like an "Alert Rank" that exists on Orb Vallis. The longer you remain undetected, the higher your resource bonuses become at the end of a mission. Double or triple, if you remain completely undetected throughout.

[Ulvra]

11 hours ago, bottledbob said:

Maybe you could get double drops for remaining undetected?

Considering what people did to farm focus back before onslaught I'd rather not. People would stealth farm to get the 5x affinity buff, run missions over and over just to get a bit of focus and I foresee that very boring gameplay coming back with something like this. Granted it's optional, but just as others said that the game rewards quick play, that would just be rewarding quick but specific play by making you feel like you have to play specific frames and weapons to not lose out on the time vs. reward table.

Personally I love running missions medium quick, no speed running nonsense for me, but not just slaughter mindlessly, rather I find it fun to try to remain undetected, and it's quite doable even while going quick. Dash into a room and behind an enemy before they react, take them out with a finisher, then turn to their mates. It's fun, it's challenging.

Now I will say, the game actually does reward slow play, in that if you take the time to look in the corners, find containers etc. you'll find a lot of resources you'd miss if you just raced through. Granted you could bring things like the ignis and just run, but where's the fun in that? It's about as fun as a nekros dark sector survival loot run, it does the job, but it's not exactly entertaining (at least to me).

[Tsukinoki]

20 hours ago, Skyray-us said:

Scouting missions where you have to infiltrate a facility undetected, scan an object or collect a sample ( maybe place remote sensors) and escape to deliver your findings back to Lotus or another NPC. You could get cash rewards, a special item of some kind ad affinity, but the rewards go down each time you are spotted or have to fight. This kind of mission could have been a prelude to something like the Fosa mission on Venus where we had to kill the Jackal. Someone had to spot it first.  This is just an idea as an example but I think you and the others can see what I mean.

So pretty much a mission that says "Bring Loki or Ivara or you're screwed out of rewards!"; and those missions might as well be "Here have automatic full rewards" for being either of those frames.
And unless the rewards are substantial and the mission is quick, it wouldn't be played because it would be too slow to get the rewards people want.  And if the rewards are substantial and the mission quick it would just be cheesed with Ivara or Loki 24/7.
That's a hard balance point to work around.

Because that's what would happen...especially with how buggy the alert mechanics are in this game.  Take for instance Mars; if a skate shows up (random wildlife in those maps) it can cause full lockdowns and the Grineer becoming alerted...meaning that they know where you are.

And that is just wildlife triggering them, there are plenty of cases of enemies seeing or hearing things that they really shouldn't, such as detecting a frame walking a distance directly behind them.

12 hours ago, bottledbob said:

Maybe you could get double drops for remaining undetected?

This already essentially happens for focus farming (look at how quickly Ivara or Loki can max out focus in an exterminate mission) and we don't need that two frame meta in more places...though honestly doubling rewards wouldn't be enough because sure you can stealthily kill 50 enemies in 5 minutes...I'll just kill over 120 in that same length of time without worrying about broken enemy detection...

[Heidelgard]

I like to "role play" as a ninja/stealthy character while playing solo, trying to remain undetected without letting the enemies turn on the alarm.

I think that the majority of the players prefer a high speed gameplay, so for me the ninja aspect of the game disappears only when joining public missions.

[Steel_Rook]

9 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

So pretty much a mission that says "Bring Loki or Ivara or you're screwed out of rewards!"; and those missions might as well be "Here have automatic full rewards" for being either of those frames.

I had a post written up on the subject, but that's what it comes down to. Warframe doesn't really seem to have a very complex stealth system, and what stealth system it does have seems VERY easily cheesed by a few Warframes. Putting extensive rewards on whole-mission stealth, then, ends up putting a gear check on that content, just as you said. I'm not really sure how you resolve that.

[Teridax68]

15 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Their direction shows up on the mini-map if you have enemy radar equipped.

The enemy radar stat for sure shows directions... in 2D. This is only marginally useful in a 3D environment, especially when enemy detection radii are inconsistent to boot. By contrast, it's become standard in many stealth games to be able to see enemy detection cones, which show exactly where enemies are facing, including if they turn their heads to look around.

15 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is what channeled melee for.  A channeled melee stealth kill completely removes the body from being seen.

Any channelled melee kill will destroy the body, but that still restricts stealth killing to melee, which as mentioned above can fail your stealth run if your stealth kill alerts an enemy within earshot. Channelled melee hits will also not destroy existing corpses, so if you kill anything with anything other than a channelled melee hit, you are almost guaranteed to leave behind a body for others to find.

[(PSN)Mpeach45]

22 hours ago, Umbriellan said:

where if you are detected, the entire zone would be blocked & reinforced with big units as we have today on Fortuna...

I tried a stealth Fortuna run last night with Ivara. Was not detected, but killing crewmen resulted in rising threat levels nevertheless.

it's true that the Grineer are dumber than the Corpus. Stealth kill 90% of the base and the remaining Grineer stay calm. Kill 1% of the Corpus crewmen and the whole floor goes on alert.

[nlas-slayerkane]

well its a futureistic space ninja game.. who know this is a future space ninja.. i mean how many actual space ninja's do you know ?? 😛 
jk jk.. i have te same feeling its an awesome game jsut missing the legit ninja aspect

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The enemy radar stat for sure shows directions... in 2D. This is only marginally useful in a 3D environment, especially when enemy detection radii are inconsistent to boot. By contrast, it's become standard in many stealth games to be able to see enemy detection cones, which show exactly where enemies are facing, including if they turn their heads to look around.

Any channelled melee kill will destroy the body, but that still restricts stealth killing to melee, which as mentioned above can fail your stealth run if your stealth kill alerts an enemy within earshot. Channelled melee hits will also not destroy existing corpses, so if you kill anything with anything other than a channelled melee hit, you are almost guaranteed to leave behind a body for others to find.

While I don't disagree with you, my earlier post was to provide info on methods that are currently in the game that most either don't realize or forget.  

[IllogicalLogic420]

You should learn more of the game mechanics and use them to their fullest. Then you'll see where the ninja part comes in.

Although, I have to admit, the game mechanics don't exactly offer a big enough incentive to learn anything other than "press E to win, shoot to win".

A new combo/combat system would remedy this, especially with interactive engagements.

What do I mean? For example, a chance to get into a "lock" or "struggle" with an enemy, requiring you to successfully completely a series of key presses, or press a single key rapidly enough, or a single press timed correctly, or whatever. After a success, you can pull of a ninja-like counter, which could be a strike, a body throw, whatever.

Maybe certain key presses will yield different counters that can be pulled off.