Why are you getting so grindy again, DE?

[Teljaxx]

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yup. Ever since Fortuna, I've suspected that the people at DE have a one-track mind. Whatever the new bit of content is, ALL of the new rewards are going to be locked behind it. What's new right now... Fortuna? K, everything will require Fortuna progression. What's that? The newest thing is Fortuna Heists? OK, everything will require heists now. Don't like Fortuna? K, come back in, like, a year when the next big thing launches.

I'm facetious, obviously, but the underlying problem is real. By massively over-rewarding such a tiny portion of the game - and a non-randomised, limited-replayability portion at that - the game artificially feels like it has a lot less content to offer. For all the S#&$ I gave it, at least Nightwave was doable via a broad range of content from across the entire spectrum, but here we are back to "grind Fortuna all over again." The longer I play this game, the more convinced I am that it's single greatest limitation is its content bottlenecks. The moment you decide you want A specific thing, the game's scope instantly narrows to a single point as you grind through a single piece of content until you're sick to the back teeth of it, even though you COULD have been doing so many different things.

And the worst part of it is that that then stays this way as development moves onto something else. If would be one thing if content were temporarily gated behind the new shiny, but was later re-integrated into the game in a more natural way. In reality, the deliberately heavy grind designed to funnel people through new content is left as-is for all times, meaning that players coming into the game three years later are STILL being pressured into playing content that might by that point be old, outdated and potentially even broken. That's why we have stuff like Rathuum or the Ambulas, or Mutalist Alad V requiring separate coordinates. It's why Mesa Prime is frankly easier to get than Mesa. The list goes on and on. We could be doing so many things, yet here we are sealing four fissures in Fortuna over and over again, when we've been grinding Fortuna for so long that we don't even need the map any more.

As with a lot of grind, it's not the AMOUNT that bothers people, but the ACTIVITY a lot of the time. If you didn't like Fortuna at release like I didn't, the intervening times would have been pretty grim.

One thing I used to really like about Warframe, way back when I first started playing, is that most rewards came from multiple places. Resources were all available on multiple planets, multiple different enemies dropped the same mods, etc. So if you got tired of farming in one place, you could probably switch things up for a bit without having to give up on your goal. But that hasn't been true for a long time. Now, every new "must have" mod or resource comes from one specific thing, in one specific place, at one specific time. So you either do that thing, or you simply cannot get it.

Combining this with the aforementioned length of the grind and, no matter what you are grinding for, it inevitably gets really stale. And of course, if you have to do part of the game you don't like, then that just makes it bad right from the beginning.

This also causes problems when they release a new area, like Fortuna, and a bunch of new items, like Garuda and kitguns, all together. Everyone gets excited to play in the new area with all the new toys, but you can't. You have to grind in the new area with all your old stuff, so that you can get the new stuff. And by the time you get the new stuff, you are done with the new area, and don't want to go there anymore. So where do you go to play with the new items, then? Do you wait for the next new area to come along? Or do you go back to the even older places that you are also tired of?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

3 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

One thing I used to really like about Warframe, way back when I first started playing, is that most rewards came from multiple places. Resources were all available on multiple planets, multiple different enemies dropped the same mods, etc. So if you got tired of farming in one place, you could probably switch things up for a bit without having to give up on your goal. But that hasn't been true for a long time. Now, every new "must have" mod or resource comes from one specific thing, in one specific place, at one specific time. So you either do that thing, or you simply cannot get it.

Combining this with the aforementioned length of the grind and, no matter what you are grinding for, it inevitably gets really stale. And of course, if you have to do part of the game you don't like, then that just makes it bad right from the beginning.

This also causes problems when they release a new area, like Fortuna, and a bunch of new items, like Garuda and kitguns, all together. Everyone gets excited to play in the new area with all the new toys, but you can't. You have to grind in the new area with all your old stuff, so that you can get the new stuff. And by the time you get the new stuff, you are done with the new area, and don't want to go there anymore. So where do you go to play with the new items, then? Do you wait for the next new area to come along? Or do you go back to the even older places that you are also tired of?

I must also agree with this, despite not minding most of the grind. Having it all in one place only is horrific, specially if it's that new shiny place. That just makes us hate it fast. I don't mind the occasional PoE bounty, but god was I fed up with it before Fortuna, Eidolons too. Now it's Fortuna. Everything comes to Fortuna and decorations are still priced at 100k standing in Cetus and Onkko from the time DE tried to create an artificial (and very lame) content supply. I am nearly fed up with Fortuna as well, and not very excited for the event, from what I've been seeing about it.

Edited March 10, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[YazMatazO]

100 Hesperon is 10 minutes worth of work. 

Talk about 100 Auron, though...

EDIT: Just adding a quick note here. Did some mining with the most basic laser, and Auron had decidedly better chances at dropping for me. But that still leaves a lot of Oxium there, as well.

Edited March 10, 2019 by YazMatazO

[Sharkgoblin]

On 2019-03-09 at 12:27 PM, Tellakey said:

It started with Nightwave, a system that encourages players to reprioritize their spare time dedicated for whatever content they want to focus on ingame in favor of tedious weekly challenges. That would be okay, mind you, had the system not been time-gated.

oh please first you complain that de is getting grindy again then you complain you cant grind, camon now

On 2019-03-09 at 12:27 PM, Tellakey said:

Then we got Operation Buried Debts, where you made us grind the same mission over and over again for the rewards. Really, DE, a hundred points for Opticor Vandal? That's 14 times the same mission without a hitch, for an OPTICOR.

i finished the event solo in few hours, for example ambulas reborn was waaaaay more grindy , also opticor vandal is much more usable and you get several new cool mods as well

 

On 2019-03-09 at 12:27 PM, Tellakey said:

• Finally, the introduction of Tatsu, a weapon that has nothing to do with Fortuna, but whose requirements include one of the Vallis' most hard-earned resource: Hesperon.

they even put a double resource booster on orb vallis for the duration of the event, in like 10 min i got more than enough esperon i needed for the sword (and yesterday they even buffed the mod drop chance of the ice spiders 

 

On 2019-03-09 at 12:27 PM, Tellakey said:

Let's not even talk about the drop rates of some of the new Ephemera as well as the Wolf's hammer parts.

wolf of saturn spawn chance is going to increase with the advance of the event, epherema is just a cosmetic you dont need it for anything

 

 

[--END--Rikutatis]

I disagree. I don't find this very grindy at all. 100 hesperon is pretty annoying for me since I particularly dislike mining in WF and I can't buy it for plat unlike rare gems, but it's whatever. I don't need that sword immediately available to me now. Sitting on 60 hesperon atm and no need to rush for the rest. 

14 missions for opticor vandal, 4 special mods and the cosmetics is nothing at all. It's a couple nights of playing, that's all. Nightwave gives people a reason to keep playing and logging on to the game at least on a weekly basis, whereas before many people were bored and had nothing to do. Plus the rewards there are great. 

People really want immediate gratification these days it seems. Then you get all the rewards on day 1 and what else are you gonna do afterwards? Log off and complain about content drought? 

[Steel_Rook]

4 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

One thing I used to really like about Warframe, way back when I first started playing, is that most rewards came from multiple places. Resources were all available on multiple planets, multiple different enemies dropped the same mods, etc. So if you got tired of farming in one place, you could probably switch things up for a bit without having to give up on your goal. But that hasn't been true for a long time. Now, every new "must have" mod or resource comes from one specific thing, in one specific place, at one specific time. So you either do that thing, or you simply cannot get it.

That's true, and it reminded me of a bit of personal experience. As a new player, bad RNG made it pretty hard for me to score an un-Flawed Horner Strike mod. I thought it might just drop for me, but by MR 6 or so it still hadn't dropped, so I went on investigating. I went to the Wiki and found that that one mod drops from: Defense (DS, T3), Interception (T1, T2), Survival, (DS1, DS2, DS3, T1, T2, T3), Excavation (T1, T2, T3), Cetus Bounty (5-15, 5-15), Spy (Lua, T1, T2), Salvage (All). I somehow missed that it also drops from Orokin Containers. I'm a notoriously picky player and hate a lot of what most games have to offer. I hated Cetus, I didn't have access to Lua or Salvage, I despised Interception and Excavation was too buggy with battery guys not spawning. So even though I just off-handedly disqualified a crap-ton of potential sources for the mod, that still left me with Defence and Survival missions. That's missionS - plural. Turns out that Defence missions have a bit of a low drop percentage, so we can further eliminate those, but that still leaves us with all of the Survival missions, where the drop chance is 6-10% and I actually like Survival. So we did a bunch of Rotation B/C Survival missions with my friends who also needed an un-flawed Hornet Strike, and before long we had the mod.

Now, on the one hand you can argue that it still came down to just one mission type. One mission type with 12-14 missions across the game's entire level range and against all of its enemies. But consider how much content I was able to selfishly disqualify and STILL end up with a dozen missions I could run. Look at how picky I could be and still find an activity I enjoyed that dropped the reward I wanted. And now look at where we are. If I want an Amalgam Mod, I need to run a single event on a single planet at a single level range against a single faction. If I dislike ANY of the factors involved, that immediately degrades the experience into an unpleasant slog. And it just so happens that I dislike both Orb Vallis and especially the Terra Corpus. But it doesn't matter because the system isn't designed to be fun. It's designed to drive foot traffic through the new shiny and fuel matchmaking, even if it has to come at the player's own experience. And people will defend this by shifting blame onto ME for disliking the event.

 

5 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

This also causes problems when they release a new area, like Fortuna, and a bunch of new items, like Garuda and kitguns, all together. Everyone gets excited to play in the new area with all the new toys, but you can't. You have to grind in the new area with all your old stuff, so that you can get the new stuff. And by the time you get the new stuff, you are done with the new area, and don't want to go there anymore. So where do you go to play with the new items, then? Do you wait for the next new area to come along? Or do you go back to the even older places that you are also tired of?

Agreed as well. The way the game's most recent progression systems are set up, the amount of grinding new content required to progress is enough to undermine both the novelty and the good will created by it. I've literally spent less time on Lua than I have on Fortuna, and I'm frankly already more than sick of it. And sure, people will argue that that's my fault for wanting all of the rewards immediately. I don't, but I want some of the rewards at some point, and everything is gated behind the highest level of grind possible. Orb Heists are gated behind max rank with Solaris United, with everything as of Fortuna's release being gated behind Solaris United standing, so that's a lot of grinding for standing. Now that we have a full inventory for Vox Solaris, everything's gated behind that and Orb Heists, with Hildrin initially gated behind max rank in Vox until someone at DE woke up and realised that was a terrible idea.

New area comes out with an excessively long grind, all the extra content that comes out afterwards is gated behind max-grind and comes with grind of its own, everything coming out subsequently is gated behind behind all of the max grinds cumulatively. Someone posted an image of a player being given a "new content" cake, immediately devouring it messily and the complaining about content drought. Well, when new areas come out light on content and with most rewards gated behind the maximum progression available, what do you expect people are going to do? When new progression systems keep being tacked onto the ends of previous progression systems, what do you expect people are going to do? When pretty much all of the new content since Fortuna has been gated behind Orb Vallis bounties, are you really surprised that people might be feeling a little full?

Like I said, DE are acting as though they have a one-track mind. We're in "Fortuna Season," so everything has to happen in Fortuna until whatever else comes out next (Railjack?), at which point literally everything will happen there until we're all sick of it. All the while, old content sits dated and unused. Warframe, a game with SO MUCH to do, but so little of which is actually being used at any one time. We need more vectors for new rewards beyond just grinding the new shiny until it's dull.

[Fellas92]

This is why I rarely visit the forums. Most of the time the context is a joke.

No content ? Everyone starts whining because there is nothing to do.

DE adds new stuff to grind? Everyone is upset because you actually need to spend time to earn something.

DE adds easy content? Everyone is upset because you get everything before blinking.

Can you people be happy with what you get for once? DE will never satisfy everyone, it is impossible. Done easy content ? Liked it ? Now do some grindy stuff. You are not special to be personally satisfied with the content which YOU want.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Fellas92

[TheSkunkyMonk]

On 2019-03-09 at 1:03 PM, Loza03 said:

1: People spent the latter half of last year complaining that there wasn't enough stuff to do. In fact, I believe a number of people pointed out there wasn't enough stuff to grind for. DE is just responding to what people asked for.

2: DE needs money to pay for things, and that means they need to encourage people buying plat. Game development ain't cheap, especially in regards to graphical improvements, which they're working on right now. 16th century alchemists were right about one thing - you can't get something out of nothing. 

Actually compared to what they bring in game devolpment is cheap,  more than 2 thirds of the profits goes to a few share holders who have nothing todo with the game and are their solely to suck cash out of this game, the other 30% pays all the wages for the devs, pays for all the servers to run the game, buys the computers the devs code on while also keeping the light on and paying for their offices, 30%! DE hav plenty of money they just want more, and more. In our current economic system its no good making 200million one year and then only making 200milion the next that is not profitable.

Shame they now make games to appease share holders instead of to entertain their players.

Cya DE 10+ weeks to complete Nightwave with the chance of missing out on the end rewards if I don't complete enough chores, at least you made me laugh on my way out...

 

[SordidDreams]

Quote

Why are you getting so grindy again, DE?

Because it's a free-to-play game that makes a profit by annoying people with grind until they get fed up and pay to skip and/or accelerate it. They can never reduce the grind to the point where it's not annoying, because then they wouldn't make any money.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

Actually compared to what they bring in game devolpment is cheap,  more than 2 thirds of the profits goes to a few share holders who have nothing todo with the game and are their solely to suck cash out of this game, the other 30% pays all the wages for the devs, pays for all the servers to run the game, buys the computers the devs code on while also keeping the light on and paying for their offices, 30%! DE hav plenty of money they just want more, and more. In our current economic system its no good making 200million one year and then only making 200milion the next that is not profitable.

Shame they now make games to appease share holders instead of to entertain their players.

Cya DE 10+ weeks to complete Nightwave with the chance of missing out on the end rewards if I don't complete enough chores, at least you made me laugh on my way out...

 

Interesting how you have DE's financial reports to give me such precise numbers.

[Test-995]

at least there is things to do now, it's better than there is no things to do.

[TheSkunkyMonk]

38 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Interesting how you have DE's financial reports to give me such precise numbers.

not hard gross - net

[Xzorn]

Nothing has really changed.

It's more the method is more obvious these days or less interesting. Depending on your view.

In the old Void Key days we spent hours in the Void farming Primes. Now we spam missions farming Primes. In old events we would achieve a high enough score in one mission. Now we spam the same mission till we get a collective score.

If anything we've traded the ability to do things in segments for an increased total grind period though I do find it odd players have given up on talking about the one blatant money grind in the game that is the Riven system. It's masterfully done. Esp by convincing players to invest in something they don't even need. The system is so good at it's job it's collected groups of players based solely around exploiting others and specialized bots to aid in that process. Anything else pales in comparison.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

not hard gross - net

And let's be real here: No company ever releases their actual financials - they release buttered up versions of it that look good to banks and investors. For example - companies like Defy are particularly extreme examples of this.

The only way you're getting that info is if you're an investor and are investigating it.

[True_Naeblis]

I simply speak with my time. I tend to take very long breaks from the game because WF relies far too heavily on funneled, tunnel-vision grind as others have pointed out. It's one thing to have a game like Guild Wars 2 that also has obscene grind but offers login rewards, area rewards, and other means of obtaining what you want/need. Heck, you can even PvP for a lot of the available loot. Their system gets old as well, but at least it offers variety. I tend to return to WF because I want to try new weapons and frames, maybe see a bit of the new areas, but the grind always turns me off because the scope is so limited.

I thought Nightwolf would be a nice departure from the old ways, but then we get hour long survivals that can be screwed up by a single person or a host migration, a new event that even some veterans can't easily jump into, more huge time gating on the new frame by locking it behind max rep from a faction that bottom line everyone doesn't like to participate heavily in, and so on. What's clear is this: DE's bottom line is making sure that the population stays steady, and once they get the grinders hooked they're hooked, so the incentive to change is low. I watch people here and on the BDO forums praise grind all day long and even get upset at people suggesting there are other ways to keep people playing and interested because it's not how they want to play.

I've accepted that while DE is very responsive in some things, in others they rule by whim or dictate. They said themselves that the grind in PoE was too heavy, then Fortuna drops and they just double down on most of it. I can't bring myself to care anymore in fighting it. I'll simply log in as the mood strikes and if I never get all the rewards, oh well. DE will be getting little of my time and none of my money until things change because I can't be bothered to play something that's supposed to be fun and is frustrating and presented as a chore. If more players who dislike the way things are progressing would step away maybe things would change. I can only imagine how time consuming the game will be once Railjack, the Tau System, and who knows how many other things have been added in. You'll need an app to keep up with the most efficient ways to progress and staying relevant will become a part-time job. I'll stick with things I actually get paid for if I'm going to have to dedicate that much of my life to them.

[Ultimatesoup]

il y a 7 minutes, True_Naeblis a dit :

They said themselves that the grind in PoE was too heavy, then Fortuna drops and they just double down on most of it.

Dropping the sauce 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Ultimatesoup

[Teljaxx]

6 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Nothing has really changed.

It's more the method is more obvious these days or less interesting. Depending on your view.

In the old Void Key days we spent hours in the Void farming Primes. Now we spam missions farming Primes. In old events we would achieve a high enough score in one mission. Now we spam the same mission till we get a collective score.

If anything we've traded the ability to do things in segments for an increased total grind period though I do find it odd players have given up on talking about the one blatant money grind in the game that is the Riven system. It's masterfully done. Esp by convincing players to invest in something they don't even need. The system is so good at it's job it's collected groups of players based solely around exploiting others and specialized bots to aid in that process. Anything else pales in comparison.

The main difference in what made the older things more fun, and the newer things less fun is the variability of them. Players used to have the option to mix things up at least a little bit over time, while still grinding for the same thing. This really helped the game from getting stale super quickly.

Void keys vs relics: Void keys got really boring, because no matter what tier you were playing, you were always on the same tileset, fighting the same enemies. And each reward only came from one specific mission type. But with relics, the tileset, mission type, and base enemy faction varies over time. The only thing that always stays the same is that corrupted enemies always spawn as well.

In older events, you usually had more of a sense of personal progression. You would start at the easy difficulty, earning low points. Then after earning a few points there, you would unlock the medium difficulty, with tougher enemies, but a larger point payout. Then, you could usually unlock a hard/endurance mode at the end for a real challenge, and even better point payout. This made it so you didn't have to spend the entire event doing just one thing over and over. You could also choose the difficulty that was best for you, so if you couldn't handle the top tier mode, you could still play the lower ones, it would just take a bit longer.

But now, it always seems to be just do this one thing until you get 100 points, then you are done. At least with Buried Debts there is apparently some sort of phase 2 coming once we all get enough scans. But this first phase has still been incredibly tedious, and I am betting the second part will be, too.

16 minutes ago, True_Naeblis said:

I simply speak with my time. I tend to take very long breaks from the game because WF relies far too heavily on funneled, tunnel-vision grind as others have pointed out. It's one thing to have a game like Guild Wars 2 that also has obscene grind but offers login rewards, area rewards, and other means of obtaining what you want/need. Heck, you can even PvP for a lot of the available loot. Their system gets old as well, but at least it offers variety. I tend to return to WF because I want to try new weapons and frames, maybe see a bit of the new areas, but the grind always turns me off because the scope is so limited.

I thought Nightwolf would be a nice departure from the old ways, but then we get hour long survivals that can be screwed up by a single person or a host migration, a new event that even some veterans can't easily jump into, more huge time gating on the new frame by locking it behind max rep from a faction that bottom line everyone doesn't like to participate heavily in, and so on. What's clear is this: DE's bottom line is making sure that the population stays steady, and once they get the grinders hooked they're hooked, so the incentive to change is low. I watch people here and on the BDO forums praise grind all day long and even get upset at people suggesting there are other ways to keep people playing and interested because it's not how they want to play.

I've accepted that while DE is very responsive in some things, in others they rule by whim or dictate. They said themselves that the grind in PoE was too heavy, then Fortuna drops and they just double down on most of it. I can't bring myself to care anymore in fighting it. I'll simply log in as the mood strikes and if I never get all the rewards, oh well. DE will be getting little of my time and none of my money until things change because I can't be bothered to play something that's supposed to be fun and is frustrating and presented as a chore. If more players who dislike the way things are progressing would step away maybe things would change. I can only imagine how time consuming the game will be once Railjack, the Tau System, and who knows how many other things have been added in. You'll need an app to keep up with the most efficient ways to progress and staying relevant will become a part-time job. I'll stick with things I actually get paid for if I'm going to have to dedicate that much of my life to them.

Finding that point between grinding and paying is a fine balance indeed, and very hard to maintain. If you make the grind too long and frustrating so that people will pay to skip it, then no one has any reason to play, because they bought everything. But if you make it too short and easy, then no one buys anything and you make no money.

This is especially hard in Warframe, because the overall spectrum of player power can vary so much. What may take a brand new player weeks to get may only take a couple hours for a veteran. And even between veterans it can vary a huge amount, because of just how many different items each one may or may not have. Like Rivens, for example.

And recently, it seems like DE has been focusing more on making grinds long for top tier veterans specifically, which makes them absolutely horrible for anyone else. This, combined with the sheer volume of stuff in the game at this point, means that finding the most efficient way to grind is key to getting anywhere. But, by separating all the new content out so much, they keep making grinds that are impossible to do efficiently. You can't grind for several different things at once when everything you want comes from an entirely different place. like how the Plains and Vallis each have entirely separate resource pools that you can get nowhere else, and standing only counts for one faction at a time.

It is possible to make long grinds fun, but DE has been getting further and further away from that with each update.

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

The main difference in what made the older things more fun, and the newer things less fun is the variability of them. Players used to have the option to mix things up at least a little bit over time, while still grinding for the same thing. This really helped the game from getting stale super quickly.

Void keys vs relics: Void keys got really boring, because no matter what tier you were playing, you were always on the same tileset, fighting the same enemies. And each reward only came from one specific mission type. But with relics, the tileset, mission type, and base enemy faction varies over time. The only thing that always stays the same is that corrupted enemies always spawn as well.

In older events, you usually had more of a sense of personal progression. You would start at the easy difficulty, earning low points. Then after earning a few points there, you would unlock the medium difficulty, with tougher enemies, but a larger point payout. Then, you could usually unlock a hard/endurance mode at the end for a real challenge, and even better point payout. This made it so you didn't have to spend the entire event doing just one thing over and over. You could also choose the difficulty that was best for you, so if you couldn't handle the top tier mode, you could still play the lower ones, it would just take a bit longer.

 

I feel Void keys had more perks than you're giving credit Vs Relics. The Tilset was the same true though that tileset felt more like a right of passage and "end-game" place. The do anytime functionality also allowed players and friends to play together more often on the mission type they wanted and not wait for a window of that fissure type and map type to happen. There was also the incentive of efficiency which kept people interested in staying longer.

Both systems have Pros and Cons though overall I don't think anything was gained in terms of the farming intensity long term. Yes we can do Radshares for a greater chance but we also can't stock up on Void keys and spam a mission the moment a Prime comes out and eventually it's impossible to Radshare Relics making them little more than Ducats.

More of the recent events are spamy. Even the Trophy gains of the last event had no prestige involved at all. It was just spam to get X point and here's a Trophy. Ambulas Reborn's Leaderboard was Kill in a single mission. Some older events only handed out a set number of Trophies per Tier. The events are have more or less become a participation thing rather than a performance thing esp with the Trophies.

[True_Naeblis]

4 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

The main difference in what made the older things more fun, and the newer things less fun is the variability of them. Players used to have the option to mix things up at least a little bit over time, while still grinding for the same thing. This really helped the game from getting stale super quickly.

Void keys vs relics: Void keys got really boring, because no matter what tier you were playing, you were always on the same tileset, fighting the same enemies. And each reward only came from one specific mission type. But with relics, the tileset, mission type, and base enemy faction varies over time. The only thing that always stays the same is that corrupted enemies always spawn as well.

In older events, you usually had more of a sense of personal progression. You would start at the easy difficulty, earning low points. Then after earning a few points there, you would unlock the medium difficulty, with tougher enemies, but a larger point payout. Then, you could usually unlock a hard/endurance mode at the end for a real challenge, and even better point payout. This made it so you didn't have to spend the entire event doing just one thing over and over. You could also choose the difficulty that was best for you, so if you couldn't handle the top tier mode, you could still play the lower ones, it would just take a bit longer.

But now, it always seems to be just do this one thing until you get 100 points, then you are done. At least with Buried Debts there is apparently some sort of phase 2 coming once we all get enough scans. But this first phase has still been incredibly tedious, and I am betting the second part will be, too.

Finding that point between grinding and paying is a fine balance indeed, and very hard to maintain. If you make the grind too long and frustrating so that people will pay to skip it, then no one has any reason to play, because they bought everything. But if you make it too short and easy, then no one buys anything and you make no money.

This is especially hard in Warframe, because the overall spectrum of player power can vary so much. What may take a brand new player weeks to get may only take a couple hours for a veteran. And even between veterans it can vary a huge amount, because of just how many different items each one may or may not have. Like Rivens, for example.

And recently, it seems like DE has been focusing more on making grinds long for top tier veterans specifically, which makes them absolutely horrible for anyone else. This, combined with the sheer volume of stuff in the game at this point, means that finding the most efficient way to grind is key to getting anywhere. But, by separating all the new content out so much, they keep making grinds that are impossible to do efficiently. You can't grind for several different things at once when everything you want comes from an entirely different place. like how the Plains and Vallis each have entirely separate resource pools that you can get nowhere else, and standing only counts for one faction at a time.

It is possible to make long grinds fun, but DE has been getting further and further away from that with each update.

Exactly that. If they would keep the grind in but allow it to be done in multiple ways then it wouldn't nearly be so bad. Why can't there be a Torroid stash on regular Corpus tiles? Why can't you find Eidolon shards here and there on Grineer tiles since they're supposed to be actively hunting them? Same for Sentient items considering that the Corpus are dissecting them on Venus. So much of the lore DE has come up with fits with mats being available all over the star chart, yet like Kuva, they force it into a ridiculously repetitive gathering method that burns out all but the most hardcore. Some stay because of sunk cost fallacy, but very few have fun over the long run.

It just amazes me that some of the games with talented, passionate devs absolutely swing and miss when it comes to utilizing their own worlds in the most effective ways. I can't speak for everyone, but most people I know of all ages will still spend hours playing cards, board games, etc., because they're engaging by design and because they offer soooo much social currency. Why would you not want to capitalize on the same in Warframe? Players like talking to each other, comparing frames, seeing how others play, seeing new weapons, seeing mod interactions, and just having fun. All I remember at the end of most Eidolon runs is whether or not they were tedious and how long they took.

I really miss playing games that encourage you to play but also give good means of interacting with other in between. WF is becoming such a grinder that you need to spend every moment playing as efficiently as possible to stay caught up, and by the time that's over you're drained and just want to log out. That's how it is for me anyway. So many of us take the time to voice our thoughts here on the forums/Reddit/Twitter; that should tell DE that we want to invest in the game, and there is no need to try and force us to play and play and play over The Fear of Missing Out.

Maybe we're just silly in the end. Maybe the studies show that playing on that fear and on sunk cost fallacies will yield the biggest profits and that's the bottom line. Maybe they just don't care about the insane burnout the forced treadmill of PoE only, Venus only, Nightwolf only, new event only leads to so long as they keep pulling in the dollars. Whether that's the case or not it feels that way right now and so I'm done giving the game more than a play here and there and completely done giving it dollars until that changes.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

17 hours ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

Actually compared to what they bring in game devolpment is cheap,  more than 2 thirds of the profits goes to a few share holders who have nothing todo with the game and are their solely to suck cash out of this game,

It's funny how you are so detailed in what you say, yet you miss two key things:

1. Unlike shareholders for other companies, this one stays away and lets DE do their thing;
2. DE shouldn't pay the shareholder, despite the shareholder equipping DE with a cr*pton of money so that they could have a mo-cap studio, hire extra people to work on the game, etc. Right? 

And what's the problem in DE proffiting so long as it's honest? It's not like players are forced to stay if they don't like the grind, which is typical of this sort of games

[Teljaxx]

3 hours ago, True_Naeblis said:

Exactly that. If they would keep the grind in but allow it to be done in multiple ways then it wouldn't nearly be so bad. Why can't there be a Torroid stash on regular Corpus tiles? Why can't you find Eidolon shards here and there on Grineer tiles since they're supposed to be actively hunting them? Same for Sentient items considering that the Corpus are dissecting them on Venus. So much of the lore DE has come up with fits with mats being available all over the star chart, yet like Kuva, they force it into a ridiculously repetitive gathering method that burns out all but the most hardcore. Some stay because of sunk cost fallacy, but very few have fun over the long run.

It just amazes me that some of the games with talented, passionate devs absolutely swing and miss when it comes to utilizing their own worlds in the most effective ways. I can't speak for everyone, but most people I know of all ages will still spend hours playing cards, board games, etc., because they're engaging by design and because they offer soooo much social currency. Why would you not want to capitalize on the same in Warframe? Players like talking to each other, comparing frames, seeing how others play, seeing new weapons, seeing mod interactions, and just having fun. All I remember at the end of most Eidolon runs is whether or not they were tedious and how long they took.

I really miss playing games that encourage you to play but also give good means of interacting with other in between. WF is becoming such a grinder that you need to spend every moment playing as efficiently as possible to stay caught up, and by the time that's over you're drained and just want to log out. That's how it is for me anyway. So many of us take the time to voice our thoughts here on the forums/Reddit/Twitter; that should tell DE that we want to invest in the game, and there is no need to try and force us to play and play and play over The Fear of Missing Out.

Maybe we're just silly in the end. Maybe the studies show that playing on that fear and on sunk cost fallacies will yield the biggest profits and that's the bottom line. Maybe they just don't care about the insane burnout the forced treadmill of PoE only, Venus only, Nightwolf only, new event only leads to so long as they keep pulling in the dollars. Whether that's the case or not it feels that way right now and so I'm done giving the game more than a play here and there and completely done giving it dollars until that changes.

You can see the effects of lore taking a backseat to the grind with the latest events. With older events, mostly back before the quest system came along, they were the main thing that moved the story forwards and provided the world building. Because of this, you usually had tons of players speculating and theorizing about what all the different parts meant, and how it would affect the story and whatnot. But now, basically all of that has been moved to the quests, and the events are much less story based than they used to be. And because of that, all you get are threads complaining about the grind. No more coming together as a community and wondering about the mysteries of Warframe. Just complaints about how awful it was to get the shiny new toy.

At least with quests, you always get the reward item at the end. Imagine if you had to grind for it? Having to play The Second Dream like 20 times to get the Broken War? No thank you...

Also, somewhat unrelated: I don't get the logic behind where they put certain items, either. Why is Baruuk's main blueprint available one rank below his components? Why is Hyldryn's main blueprint in the game at all, even though it is impossible to get her components yet? Its not like you can do anything with the main blueprint without the components as well, so there is no point in having it accessible earlier.

Garuda is in a similar situation. You get her main blueprint from the Fortuna intro quest, and her components drop from the easiest bounties, so you can collect them all super fast. But you can't build her until you get all the way up to the second highest Solaris United rank, because you need the Marquis Thyst blueprint. So, with a bit of luck, you should be able to get all her blueprints and the resources you need within a day or two. But you can't build the last one for at least a week, maybe longer depending on how much standing you can get per day. So what is the point?

These kinds of things, along with the completely out of whack costs of certain items, like the Hema, really make me think DE doesn't actually have any idea how to balance out all this grinding, and is basically just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

11 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

I don't get the logic behind where they put certain items, either. Why is Baruuk's main blueprint available one rank below his components? Why is Hyldryn's main blueprint in the game at all, even though it is impossible to get her components yet? Its not like you can do anything with the main blueprint without the components as well, so there is no point in having it accessible earlier.

Artificial time-gating. They knew what they were doing there. To prevent players to get Garuda (example) like, 2 days before than they actually got her, which only creates frustration over basically nothing. I do understand why they do it, even if I don't agree much. Because then instead of "DE So much time to get Garuda" we'd be seeing threads with "DE! I got Garuda in 1 day! Too easy, drought incoming". There's no pleasing nitpicky crowds.

[Ultimatesoup]

il y a 15 minutes, (PS4)Pauloluisx a dit :

Artificial time-gating. They knew what they were doing there. To prevent players to get Garuda (example) like, 2 days before than they actually got her, which only creates frustration over basically nothing. I do understand why they do it, even if I don't agree much. Because then instead of "DE So much time to get Garuda" we'd be seeing threads with "DE! I got Garuda in 1 day! Too easy, drought incoming". There's no pleasing nitpicky crowds.

Both are unpleasant. 

And both are too easy, except that time-gating makes it very long and boring.

 

[Teljaxx]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Artificial time-gating. They knew what they were doing there. To prevent players to get Garuda (example) like, 2 days before than they actually got her, which only creates frustration over basically nothing. I do understand why they do it, even if I don't agree much. Because then instead of "DE So much time to get Garuda" we'd be seeing threads with "DE! I got Garuda in 1 day! Too easy, drought incoming". There's no pleasing nitpicky crowds.

See, I get the whole time gating thing. That's how they counter the problem I mentioned in a previous post, the large gap in how long it can take different players to get new stuff. It makes sure that everyone has to wait for it, instead of only the newer players. I remember back when they were still releasing frames that dropped from bosses, this was a huge issue. All the old players could build them right away, because they already had massive stockpiles of resources. But new players couldn't.

The thing I don't get is why they don't just put all the related items together. Why not put Baruuk's main blueprint at the same rank as his components? Why not wait to release Hyldryn's main blueprint once we can start farming the rest? Why not just make all of Garuda's parts available from Solaris United at the same rank as the Marquis Thyst blueprint? Giving you part of it, when you can't do anything without all of it, is pointless.

All I can think of is that its supposed to make you feel like you have gotten something, even though you really haven't. A little bit of false hope to keep you grinding, even though the goal is still so far away.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

4 minutes ago, Ultimatesoup said:

Both are unpleasant. 

And both are too easy, except that time-gating makes it very long and boring.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

See, I get the whole time gating thing. That's how they counter the problem I mentioned in a previous post, the large gap in how long it can take different players to get new stuff. It makes sure that everyone has to wait for it, instead of only the newer players. I remember back when they were still releasing frames that dropped from bosses, this was a huge issue. All the old players could build them right away, because they already had massive stockpiles of resources. But new players couldn't.

The thing I don't get is why they don't just put all the related items together. Why not put Baruuk's main blueprint at the same rank as his components? Why not wait to release Hyldryn's main blueprint once we can start farming the rest? Why not just make all of Garuda's parts available from Solaris United at the same rank as the Marquis Thyst blueprint? Giving you part of it, when you can't do anything without all of it, is pointless.

All I can think of is that its supposed to make you feel like you have gotten something, even though you really haven't. A little bit of false hope to keep you grinding, even though the goal is still so far away.

Yes indeed, and I agree. I also don't like time-gating, and I tend to eat trough content if there's no time-gating. But at that point I either create my own goals (Clan management, daily challenges, arbitrations, you name it) or I'll go play another game. Because of this time-gating created to appease to players who can't manage themselves I get chained with them and my progression is slowed down without actual need. Because DE tries to cater to them as well. On other hand I also know that it's hard to make all these decisions, so I just go with the flow. If it's too much I take a break, maybe just post a feedback post about why just so DE can know why some players give up, without fussing or hating, and so that they may have more information for their future decisions, if/when I come back. But that's about it.