Riven Madness

[Voltage]

Removing disposition is a good idea in my eyes as the system currently promotes players to get Riven Mods like Rubico on release due to the disposition and base stats and not the Kraken, to then later lower the disposition of the Rubico and still no one plays with the Kraken. If everything had a neutral disposition, there would be more consistency with rolls. 

If nothing changes about Rivens however, learning how things work and investing in them properly is needed by the player base. If you invest in Pyrana or Rubico because of the power, that's fine, but don't be surprised when the disposition goes down. Riven Mods are an investment, just like adding Forma to Tonkor/Simulor before they got nerfed. Have fun while you can before things change, and the changes will be less painful.

[ShortCat]

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

It's not to balance weapons, it's to make weak early weapons viable again once you reach endgame. Hence why their dispositions are no longer based on usage stats but rather on the weapon's power tier, as per DE's recent announcement

While this was one of the initially stated goals, this argument is weak because:

• to reach said goal you need to pass several hard RNG checks, or spend RM currency
• there is nothing inherently wrong with tiered weapons...
• ...especially if weapons have upgrads, like Prime, Vandal etc available, which retain base weapon's signature traits
• while it is dabatable, whether said goal has been achieved
• bonus points for everyone who remembers, that there was no disposition on day 1 and people were selling Soma Rivens with 200% CC and CD for a small fortune

10 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

That's why I don't think that's the main reason for their existence, I have a hard time believing a dev would design a system intentionally for the purpose of creating such an experience.

Well, loot boxes exist, so there are precedents. Whether it was intentional or not, is open to interpretation; Riven's system history is set in stone and it tells a story about cheap Skinner-Box that hooked a fair amount of players, revitalized plat trading and fueled power creep.

[Test-995]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Removing disposition is a good idea in my eyes as the system currently promotes players to get Riven Mods like Rubico on release due to the disposition and base stats and not the Kraken, to then later lower the disposition of the Rubico and still no one plays with the Kraken. If everything had a neutral disposition, there would be more consistency with rolls. 

If nothing changes about Rivens however, learning how things work and investing in them properly is needed by the player base. If you invest in Pyrana or Rubico because of the power, that's fine, but don't be surprised when the disposition goes down. Riven Mods are an investment, just like adding Forma to Tonkor/Simulor before they got nerfed. Have fun while you can before things change, and the changes will be less painful.

The only difference is that you can't even complete a riven, based on luck.

At least forma doesn't have any RNG element.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

19 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Extra stats on top, stats not included in any requirement or impetus for any other system in the game. Purely optional.

Ostensibly they are to bridge the gap between when the hivemind thinks a weapon should be changed and the time when it can actually be changed. A weapon with no real attention from the community would have a bigger incentive to use than one that everyone uses.

If I were to go to an extreme, it's to test whether players are capable of handling more frequent stat changes. To test whether players can restrain themselves.

See, to me that reads simply as "buff". Sure, there are meme builds players have for the lulz, but that doesn't come close to all the cries of "GOD ROLL" you see in chat and on the forum. Whether or not that was DE's intent from the beginning is immaterial at this point. And again, as they are purely optional, removing them does not impact gameplay in any truly meaningful way. At least, that's how I see it.

 

18 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

You misunderstand the point of rivens. It's not to balance weapons, it's to make weak early weapons viable again once you reach endgame. Hence why their dispositions are no longer based on usage stats but rather on the weapon's power tier, as per DE's recent announcement. If you equalized weapon power by directly buffing and nerfing them, you'd destroy the early- and mid-game progression, which is in large part based on acquiring better guns as you climb MRs.

I don't think I do misunderstand. "Balance" doesn't exist in this game. And, based on what I've seen on the forum at least, there is no endgame, making rivens utterly pointless (in that regard).

[(NSW)Belaptir]

Porposal 6(maybe?): Make rivens untradeable when unveiled. You can still trade them while they are veiled.

It will encourage riven transmuting rather than riven collecting. And will delete the whole shady market behind the rivens (and the indecent prices of them).

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

19 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

To keep us busy playing the game with more farming and RNG, ofc 😋

finally someone who sees the truth.

Rivens & Kuva are not there to balance anything except DE's checkbook.  They encourage extra hours of play - unveiling, rerolling, trading, forma'ing weapons to make them fit etc.

then "rebalance" them all to define a new meta which means anyone who spent those hours doing all that have to start again with new rivens.

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Uh... Guys... I'm confused by this whole riven dispositions change thing. 

 

Maybe one of you can explain what I'm not getting?

Let's say that I have 2 rivens for my Lanka, one is really good with the highest stats in the things that make a Lanka better and the negative value works in my favour, and the other is very much a "meh" riven with much worse stats than the first one even though all other things are equal. 

If the disposition has changed, can I reroll my good riven to get it higher than it is right now? And will the meh riven now be higher in stats than it was before the change? 

Or will my good riven still grant the highest bump in stats possible in the game, still bigger than what the meh one gives? (Because if this is the case, then you guys will need to explain why that's an issue causing so much trouble for some people.) 

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

21 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Nothing

Well, if you delete rivens without compensating, it benefits/doesn't bother you, but enrage others with rivens, which might lead to rage quitting the game, further lead to DE's income loss. So why would DE shoot themselves in the foot? 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

Well, if you delete rivens without compensating, it benefits/doesn't bother you, but enrage others with rivens, which might lead to rage quitting the game, further lead to DE's income loss. So why would DE shoot themselves in the foot? 

This is a video game. What sort of compensation are you expecting from virtual items with no real value?

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

Just now, (PS4)abbacephas said:

This is a video game. What sort of compensation are you expecting from virtual items with no real value?

I got 0 answers for that question. That's exactly why I think it's so hard for DE to remove rivens without shooting themselves in the foot.

To be fair tho, the value of items is determined by the consumers, regardless of the nature of the items. 

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uh... Guys... I'm confused by this whole riven dispositions change thing. 

Maybe one of you can explain what I'm not getting?

Let's say that I have 2 rivens for my Lanka, one is really good with the highest stats in the things that make a Lanka better and the negative value works in my favour, and the other is very much a "meh" riven with much worse stats than the first one even though all other things are equal. 

If the disposition has changed, can I reroll my good riven to get it higher than it is right now? And will the meh riven now be higher in stats than it was before the change? 

Or will my good riven still grant the highest bump in stats possible in the game, still bigger than what the meh one gives? (Because if this is the case, then you guys will need to explain why that's an issue causing so much trouble for some people.) 

The Lanka's Riven Disposition went up, so all Rivens for it got buffed. There is no difference between your two Lanka Rivens besides their current, random stats. You could reroll them both, and the good one could become trash and the bland one could remain bland. You don't need to reroll for the changes to have effect, existing Rivens were altered. 

The issue is that a lot of Riven Dispositions went down, weakening the mods by a significant degree. Whether it's for the greater good or not, nobody likes it when their shiny toys get dulled. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite God

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

5 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

This is a video game. What sort of compensation are you expecting from virtual items with no real value?

In-game compensation, brosef. When DE nerfed Steel Charge, they gave people Legendary Cores. When they did the huge balance update for a lot of weapons, they gave people a pocketful of Forma. When servers went down, they gave people boosters. When the TennoCon Livestream debacle happened, they gave everyone Ash Prime. DE has a precedent of providing compensation when they make disruptive changes. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite God

[AtsiaZ]

I'm on the side of rivens mostly working as intended, and removing them Stu this point of just gonna cause major issues for DE since there's nothing that really gonna compensate for them.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Just now, Atsia said:

I'm on the side of rivens mostly working as intended, and removing them Stu this point of just gonna cause major issues for DE since there's nothing that really gonna compensate for them.

Prime Access for everyone 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

On 2019-04-02 at 3:35 PM, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Proposal 4: Remove rivens entirely. Buff weapons as necessary. Nerf weapons as necessary.

i like rivens

i just hate how they keep nerfing them

people spend huge plat on them, or grind and work hard for them

just for some dumb nerf

[Voltage]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Porposal 6(maybe?): Make rivens untradeable when unveiled. You can still trade them while they are veiled.

It will encourage riven transmuting rather than riven collecting. And will delete the whole shady market behind the rivens (and the indecent prices of them).

The market is not really shady.

Think of it this way: Every Riven Mod is unique and a monopoly held by the owner. A collector will want to find something that performs well, and pay even more for something that looks cool (this is why an unrolled Riven Mod is popular compared to the same roll with 10 rolls. It is fundamentally useless when looking at the power of the roll, however desired). The "shadiness" is brought by the drama and garbage of that bot stuff. I agree that third party applications to enhance trading does go into the gray area.

However, the ability to trade does come down to a skill, and even those who have access to shady practices need to understand what has value and what does not. If I have Damage, Multishot, and Critical Chance with negative Slash, I will not instantly rake in thousands. However, if that roll is applied to Pyrana, you will make TONS (this is due to shotgun status mechanics and the base status chance of the Pyrana Prime).

The Riven system allows players with tens of thousands of Platinum accumulated over years of pet imprints, mods, Primes, etc. to indulge into potential collectors items and potentially powerful mods to add to their arsenal. They are an economy stimulant for sure, but the healthy way to make them interesting as hit the core of Kuva farming. If you hit this system with much needed changes, the rolling system will then feel like an actual grind with some reward, not a scratch ticket.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Voltage

[ba12348]

I've seen the term "power creep" get mentioned over and over in the recent riven discussion, not necessarily on this post, but I have to ask... is it a bad thing?  First things first, I'm not happy about the changes.  I don't want to call myself salty or angry over them, but since the riven changes I just, haven't wanted to play.  I enjoy my Tiberon, and even after the changes it's still a great gun with a ridiculous riven (+84% multishot, 84% cold, 148% crit chance, -75 status duration), I bought a bad riven for 150 plat, and rolled it 13 times to get here.  It's still a great combo, but somehow it just doesn't feel awesome now.  Which brings me to my point; this is not a competitive game, sorry Teshin, is having overpowered guns a bad thing?  No one is going to stop using the lanka for eidolon captures as a result of these changes, no one is going to stop using the ignis wraith for loot runs after these changes, and no one is going to start using the Dread for... whatever bows are supposed to be good at.

I'd like to see rivens go one of two ways, possibly both:
No more nerfs.  Make me want to use those early game or unique guns, don't make me not want to use the guns I like.  If one gun in particular is over performing, everybody else gets a buff, same end result but nobody gets hurt.
No more changes based entirely on usage statistics.  When you give a gun away (Soma Prime, looking at you) it's gonna get used.  

Edited April 4, 2019 by ba12348

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

12 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

The Lanka's Riven Disposition went up, so all Rivens for it got buffed. 

It did? Now I'm even more confused:

Lanka: 0.95->0.85

 

12 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

You could reroll them both, and the good one could become trash and the bland one could remain bland.

So that means that my hypothetical Godroll riven with perfect stats, would still be one of the best rivens in the game for that weapon, no matter what happens to the disposition. It might just give a slightly smaller buff than it previously did, or slightly stronger. 

Well then, I'd still have the best possible buff for the weapon I'm using, so I would have nothing to complain about. So again, not sure what the all fuss is about. 

[AtsiaZ]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It did? Now I'm even more confused:

Lanka: 0.95->0.85

 

So that means that my hypothetical Godroll riven with perfect stats, would still be one of the best rivens in the game for that weapon, no matter what happens to the disposition. It might just give a slightly smaller buff than it previously did, or slightly stronger. 

Well then, I'd still have the best possible buff for the weapon I'm using, so I would have nothing to complain about. So again, not sure what the all fuss is about. 

People are just upset about losing their "investment" since getting a good riven can take hundreds of rolls and thousands of kuva. But that is a problem on their end since DE said from the absolute beginning that dispositions are gonna change, so it's falls into gamblers fallacy.

[Cicasajt]

On 2019-04-02 at 10:35 PM, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Proposal 4: Remove rivens entirely. Buff weapons as necessary. Nerf weapons as necessary.

but how else would we get negative ips?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

19 minutes ago, Atsia said:

People are just upset about losing their "investment" since getting a good riven can take hundreds of rolls and thousands of kuva. But that is a problem on their end since DE said from the absolute beginning that dispositions are gonna change, so it's falls into gamblers fallacy.

But they still have a good riven don't they?

It didn't change, just the multiplier it applies.... So while they might not be getting the numbers they used to see, but aren't they still seeing the very best numbers possible in the game for that weapon?

[AtsiaZ]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

But they still have a good riven don't they?

It didn't change, just the multiplier it applies.... So while they might not be getting the numbers they used to see, but aren't they still seeing the very best numbers possible in the game for that weapon?

Oh yes, all the meta weapons that got a lower disposition are still extremely powerful, with or without riven.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

46 minutes ago, Cicasajt said:

but how else would we get negative ips?

[Leyvonne]

On 2019-04-02 at 11:32 PM, (XB1)Erudite God said:

Proposal 2: Riven Disposition REMOVED, all set to 1.0, but a new Mod slot for Rivens is added to all weapons, like Exilus slots. These slots will also be useable for mods that affect reload speed and ammo. 

No thanks. At least now players who don't like the riven system can completely ignore them without feeling like their builds are missing something.

[Ham_Grenabe]

On 2019-04-02 at 4:44 PM, (XB1)Erudite God said:

If DE were to delete Rivens, what would an appropriate compensation be? 

Nothing. We all spent real money on imaginary things; if those imaginary things disappear...well, I believe we're capable of understanding that was a risk.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe