Kitguns are still making most other secondaries irrelevant.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but wanted to raise the issue again.

Kitguns are high damage weapons with the ability to achieve 100%+ crit chance before rivens.  The Catchmoon does massive AoE damage, the Tombfinger is a Lex with bullet travel but with far more damage plus an AoE, and the Rattleguts is s better Akstilletto Prime.

The reason everyone is running around with kitguns isn't "cool new thing" anymore, it's "why bring anything else when this weapon does it all?"

So, some suggestions:

- I have an equivalent Rattleguts riven and Akstilletto riven.  The Rattleguts consistently kills 2x as fast in a DPS test.  Both rivens enhance crit, both weapons are hybrids.  Buff the dispositions of weapons comparable to kitguns and consider further tweaking kitgun rivens.

- Run a balance pass on kitgun base damage.  The 100% crit can stay for amusement, but it needs at least lower base damage or crit mult.

- If that last suggestion is unpopular enough not to implement, other comparable secondaries still need a purpose.  So if kitguns must remain as powerful as they are, it may be time to accept the power creep has already happened, and buff the absolute crap out of all comparable secondaries.

[kotex073]

There always will be a meta, nerf the kitguns and another meta will takes it place.

I don't see any problem, if you like to use something else than a kitgun who stops you ?

[Rhyandra]

Yes, let's nerf the weapons that require the most timesink which are also supposed to be the best secondaries. 900 iq

[Cicasajt]

kitguns are dull tho. i rather play a weapn thats more interesting or is close to my heart

[RAZORLIGHT]

since the starting post metiones rivens... not the kitguns are the problem but the whole riven system.

it was designed to buff weaker weapons to an acceptable state... but all it does is making strong weapons even stronger.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

7 minutes ago, kotex073 said:

There always will be a meta, nerf the kitguns and another meta will takes it place.

I don't see any problem, if you like to use something else than a kitgun who stops you ?

I do use other weapons of course.  I'm just disappointed that most other secondaries are now outclassed.

6 minutes ago, Karu-QW said:

Yes, let's nerf the weapons that require the most timesink which are also supposed to be the best secondaries. 900 iq

By this logic, the Hema and Sibear should be god-tier best in class weapons that put everything else to shame.

... Which tbf they do need a buff for how hard they are to get lol

[Guest]

You traded beauty for power. The Kitguns are extremely ugly. Then not considering that, they take a lot more resources than any other weapon to build, require standing grind to get the necessary parts and still require even more standing for the Arcanes.

If you are just salty the Prime Weapons aren't cutting it ... well they are so much easier to get, ofc they will be lousier.

Oh, since you mentioned the Hema, it should be an MR 15 gun with Stats enough for a Hybrid Build and all.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Guest

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

If you are just salty the Prime Weapons aren't cutting it ... well they are so much easier to get, ofc they will be lousier.

Having multiple top options and weapons balanced for the MR at which they are available has been the goal in the past.  End-all-be-all weapons are generally bad for the game.

[Guest]

Just now, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Having multiple top options and weapons balanced for the MR at which they are available has been the goal in the past.  End-all-be-all weapons are generally bad for the game.

Something will power creep it in the future. You may hate this, but it is a fact.

If the new stuff doesn't improve on the old stuff no one will use the new stuff.

[Soldier1312]

Honestly? To hell with meta. Play whatever you are comfortable with. Warframe's most content is closed between lvls 1-100. And you really can use most of equipment there.

And I, personally, don't care for time challenges and few-hours-long survivals. And if you don't care like me then stop worrying about meta in PvE game.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

Just now, Soldier1312 said:

Honestly? To hell with meta. Play whatever you are comfortable with. Warframe's most content is closed between lvls 1-100. And you really can use most of equipment there.

And I, personally, don't care for time challenges and few-hours-long survivals. And if you don't care like me then stop worrying about meta in PvE game.

Well of course.  But things are meta for a reason.  When a kitgun can delete a horde faster than the Ignis Wraith, has the easiest time against bosses, instantly destroys dropships at max level bounty, etc. you tend to stop seeing the alternatives used by the playerbase.

The reason we've gotten balance passes in the past instead of a "Just play whatever you want! They all kill things." from the devs is that the "meta" exists for a reason.

[AvPCelticPredator]

42 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but wanted to raise the issue again.

Kitguns are high damage weapons with the ability to achieve 100%+ crit chance before rivens.  The Catchmoon does massive AoE damage, the Tombfinger is a Lex with bullet travel but with far more damage plus an AoE, and the Rattleguts is s better Akstilletto Prime.

The reason everyone is running around with kitguns isn't "cool new thing" anymore, it's "why bring anything else when this weapon does it all?"

So, some suggestions:

- I have an equivalent Rattleguts riven and Akstilletto riven.  The Rattleguts consistently kills 2x as fast in a DPS test.  Both rivens enhance crit, both weapons are hybrids.  Buff the dispositions of weapons comparable to kitguns and consider further tweaking kitgun rivens.

- Run a balance pass on kitgun base damage.  The 100% crit can stay for amusement, but it needs at least lower base damage or crit mult.

- If that last suggestion is unpopular enough not to implement, other comparable secondaries still need a purpose.  So if kitguns must remain as powerful as they are, it may be time to accept the power creep has already happened, and buff the absolute crap out of all comparable secondaries.

Your conclusion is pointless, is overpowered against low and mid lvl no doubt, but did u try to use them in "Arbitration" against lvl 150 or 300+?

I'm doubt that u are, so if u dont like them dont suggest something like this never again.

They are made with purpose to play against harder enemies not to killing low lvl enemies. 😉

[SneakyErvin]

They are the most time and resource involving weapons to get, much like Zaws, so it isnt more than right that they are "end-game" weapons. You also need to level them all twice before unlocking their full potential. So yes, they should be better than the mass produced low cost/low time stuff.

[Zyneris]

A meta will always exist with or without a 'top dog'. If it's not kitguns, it's going to be something else.

Do I find it a twinge odd that they are inherently powerful compared to the already existing weapons? Sure I do, however, if they weren't they would have no allure for people to go through the trouble of making them.

That is their ultimately flaw in design. If their grind wasn't so tedious and pointless, people would make them without thought. But since it's such a drag, there needs to be a reason beyond MR to make them. Hence their power. Do I agree with this model? No, not in the slightest. But I get it. The open worlds have to have their gimmick otherwise players wouldn't be bothered.

Now is what I said true in every situation for every person? Absolutely not! Personally I wasn't bothered with Fortuna content until I decided that I wanted some of the benefits that Fortuna gave us (this does not actually include kitguns).

All in all, it's a choice. You don't -have- to get a kitgun. You really don't. Anyone who says you have to is wrong. The only real place you may really want one is very long endurance runs and even then, kitguns just make it easier but are by no means required.

Again, do I think the model of modular items is a bit questionable? Yes. Do I think that it's making nonmodular weapons irrelevant? No. Not even close.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Zyneris
I edit after proofs.

[OvisCaedo]

I feel like people tend overstate the resources kitguns take to make, but I guess it probably feels like a lot when landscape gameplay is so awful. Though I do probably have a skewed perception on it, since my MR and daily cap were on the higher side.

Anyhow. I don't really expect any nerfs to them; zaws already powercreeped to the top of most of their melee categories, from the sounds of it, and that's been the case for an extremely long time now. Gotta have a juicy carrot if you want to lure people through grinding the open landscape snoozefests. Kitgun riven dispositions will probably keep getting lowered every three months due to their popularity, though, so there's that.

Edited April 24, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[Rhyandra]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)BenHeisennberg:

I do use other weapons of course.  I'm just disappointed that most other secondaries are now outclassed.

By this logic, the Hema and Sibear should be god-tier best in class weapons that put everything else to shame.

... Which tbf they do need a buff for how hard they are to get lol

Never said that should not be the case. In fact I do think they should be god tier weapons because of the ridiculous grind.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Even if you were to balance dps between kitguns and other secondaries -either via buffs or nerfs

I'd still be using the kitguns, because the appeal isn't that they're overpowered.

It's that they're Customizable

I get to swap parts around all I want to make whatever combo I enjoy of stat vs crit vs hybrid vs bullet hose vs sharpshooter gun.

There's just so much variety, so its natural that they'd be a good choice.

People say they're overused, but that's a generalization lumping together All the different possible combos as if they were a single gun. If you were to look at any Single instance I doubt it would stand out all that much.

My favorite Kitgun, is not necessarily the same as the next guys favorite Kitgun.

-Note, I believe the current Riven Dispositions are inadequate for kitguns; Different combos of parts can produce very different weapons and I would suggest that Disposition should vary based on all 3 pieces combined, not just the chamber.

[AzureTerra]

I haven't done much with kitguns mostly because the one i did try was not what it was advertised as and was ugly to boot. Have many side arms that are already good and those ^@^$ boxes don't hold a candle to them.

[5H4DE]

Modular weapons will ALWAYS outclass others simply because the players have the ability to decide the ups and downs on them.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

No one is forcing you to use Kitguns, and what is wrong with weapons being strong in a game like warframe? Plenty of other weapons out their for you to use like many players do even with kitguns existing as is so just join them and use whatever you want whenever you want instead of asking for nerfs. Kitguns also take more time investment then most other secondaries so their power is warranted. Powercreep is a thing GET USED TO IT!

[-_Highlander_-]

Catchmoon aint a bad weapon to have without rivens sure it aint the end level beating up lvl 300+ but iam happy with it as an secondary .. normaly i would used Akstilleto prime

who needs rivens anyway

Rivens make easy weapons to OP Meta's 

And then you have it .. the battlecry for nerfs 

1 reason not to use rivens anymore

They are beeing added to almost every weapon there is .. even if its already powerfull to beat 100+ 

on top of that you have the riven disposition that can make the riven less powerfull but in the end you adapt to it and make it and Meta once again no mather what

-- Rivens or no Rivens there is always an way to make yourself Overpowered --

And asking for nerfs isn't going to help 

[CashMoneySloot]

You talk about the Meta as if it's something that matters. A quick spin through a hoard with an atterax will delete the enemies faster than a kitgun but its boring to use, I enjoy using the Twin rogga, Akmagnus, Pandero, Plink and Staticor all for different reasons and they hold up well. Not everyone is using the Meta and not everyone needs to use the Meta otherwise you will just burn your self out because you use X damage dealing weapon only and never touched Y that makes the best little plinking noise when shot.

[Buttaface]

So OP is a verbose version of "nerf kitguns." Why not simply say that then?

Kitguns are fine. Three of them have range, projectile/travel time and obstacle (Catchmoon) tradeoffs in comparison to hitscan weapons that of course OP forgot to mention... working as intended. The Rattleguts is a top tier secondary, as are akjagara, atomos, sicarus, etc. Not OP compared to many other weapons.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

On 2019-04-24 at 11:25 AM, RAZORLIGHT said:

it was designed to buff weaker weapons to an acceptable state... but all it does is making strong weapons even stronger.

mmmm beg to differ.  I'm pretty sure my Lato Vandal, a highly underused weapon and weaker weapon, is able to easily supersede any other secondary in the game because of my Riven.  It has some near 137k DPS.  I've never seen a gun reach that high - hell it's hard to get most guns past the 50-60k  point. 

I mean closest we could compare to is AkLex P. as another crit based pistol(s), one of the best in the game - and even though that weapon under normal circumstance would dominate every time, there is 0% chance you could ever generate a Riven strong enough to allow it to overtake my Lato at this point.  In theory the AkLex Prime is normally ~2x as strong.  Rivens changes that quick. 

If you get good rolls the Riven system generally does work.  I think people just don't actually try to make the weaker weapons viable and continue to play the meta, because of the very misconception that Rivens don't work, and that's why they miss gems like Lato rivens that give incredibly busted stats.   

Edited April 26, 2019 by (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z

[RAZORLIGHT]

No the system doesnt really work because the gun handling is still me with Lato.

Riven system is flawed and they never fixed it like most stuff they introduce.