So... why exactly are we fighting the Sentients?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2019-05-23 at 1:22 PM, Rider_Megalon said:

well maybe its me but anyone notices that Natah kinda talking crazy like she talking at us not to us. and how her sentence structure is off  to say the least. maybe i'm think to much of into it but Natah seem to be functionally insane

'

When you suppress someone’s Free Will, it kinda throws them off. 😏

[Alric]

1 hour ago, Katinka said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Frankly I don't get what DE were thinking when it came to the lore behind the Amalgams and the Ropalolyst fight.  Initially it seems that Alad is excited and proud about his new allies and business partner but then in possibly the fastest betrayal ever (from a guy who has possibly betrayed every faction in the game at some point) he starts giving us advice on how to defeat the Ropalolyst!  I mean, he usually stays on one side for at least the length of an event, betraying them next event or even one after but switching against the Sentients in the same event in which he reveals allegiance to them?  That's fast even for him!

Ok so from what I've gathered by running the Ropadopapopalyst fight, Alad V and Natah both want the Ropapopadopapopalyst dead, Alad V cause I assume it's a mindless nuisance like every other Eidolon, and Natah because she's suggesting that every time you kill an Eidolon you are freeing its essence or something to rejoin the greater whole of Sentients.

[Alric]

WUT! Stupid stuttering internet!

Edited May 25, 2019 by Alric
Wut

[Alric]

Seriously how did this happen.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Alric
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[Alric]

I think i need a delete button cause when I hit submit nothing happened and then when I reloaded there were like 6 of these.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Alric
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[Alric]

I am not used to forums.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Alric
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[Alric]

I am so sorry.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Alric
Wut

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-05-23 at 4:00 AM, WindBlade said:

But the Sentients? we kind of have a lot in common. We were both created, used and abused by the Orokin, to the point we were only fighting in the first place because the Orokin turned us into weapons in desperation, and we'd still be disposed-of trash otherwise.

 

And the Orokin are gone now. The main reason I can see we would be fight is dead and long gone.. and I cant help maybe we could be chill with the Sentients, or at least agree to leave each other alone

Have you LISTENED to Hunhow? For all their "sympathetic" backstory, the Sentients are freaking crazy and hate us and want us all to just die. Yeah, I don't think we're going to be making peace anytime soon

[Loza03]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

Have you LISTENED to Hunhow? For all their "sympathetic" backstory, the Sentients are freaking crazy and hate us and want us all to just die. Yeah, I don't think we're going to be making peace anytime soon

Certainly, not with all of them. I could see a more sympathetic faction though. They are sentient after all, and we do know that the Eidolon showed up after Hunhow's plan failed on their own accord, indicating that they can disagree with each other, since the Eidolon would either have had to go against Hunhow's orders to not wait for some kind of signal that the plan was go, or against the other Sentients desire to stay for one reason or another. It had to be independent.

Though I'm actually pretty sure Hunhow might have a change of heart, at least if Lotus is being brainwashed. That's probably the 'reclaiming' that he talked about, that he said he 'would not be able to stop'.

But, what if he could, if it meant teaming up with his enemies? What matters more, his grudge, his fear, or his family?

[SunsetRain]

On 2019-05-23 at 7:20 AM, VanFanel1980mx said:

The sentients view the tenno and the void as a threat, they would never make peace with them and I think they would also destroy other civilizations as well, namely the Ostron.

And yet, the lotus, the Sentient Mimic Queen made peace?

[Oreades]

On 2019-05-23 at 8:23 AM, Kontrollo said:

Because they hate fashion.

T-t-those Monsters 😧

[TARINunit9]

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Certainly, not with all of them. I could see a more sympathetic faction though. They are sentient after all, and we do know that the Eidolon showed up after Hunhow's plan failed on their own accord, indicating that they can disagree with each other, since the Eidolon would either have had to go against Hunhow's orders to not wait for some kind of signal that the plan was go, or against the other Sentients desire to stay for one reason or another. It had to be independent.

Though I'm actually pretty sure Hunhow might have a change of heart, at least if Lotus is being brainwashed. That's probably the 'reclaiming' that he talked about, that he said he 'would not be able to stop'.

But, what if he could, if it meant teaming up with his enemies? What matters more, his grudge, his fear, or his family?

Hunhow is the LEAST likely Sentient to have a change of heart. This guy was, in the most human term we have, a "farmer", yet the moment he got his military conscription notice he went COMPLETELY mad with power and believed himself a "Destroyer of Worlds"

He is the closest thing to Hitler in the lore. And that's not Godwin's Law, I'm talking "real life actual human being Adolf Hitler", as in the poor German boy who failed at a mundane job, became a ground-level WW1 veteran, and went crazy with psychotic patriotism and delusions of grandeur and dreams of mass genocide. The main difference being Hitler was actually in charge, where the leader of the Sentient armada seems to be Hunhow's wife rather than himself.

Moving away from Godwin's Law and into intentional subtext, I really don't see the Sentients ever not locked in a brutal war of extermination with the Tenno. We're both locked in a cycle of fear, systemic hatred, and preemptive warfare at this point. Neither of us trust the other to just sit back peacefully in our respective solar systems. And on top of that, the next quest is literally called "The New War". As in a reference to the Old War. Which was Orokin + Tenno vs Sentient. Second verse, same as the first? I think so

The only way I could see your theory panning out to any degree is if we get more lore on the Sentinels, those pseudo-Sentients we found in the Kuiper Belt

[rand0mname]

The way story goes, I would not be surprised to find out that Tenno looted Tau till it was a barren wasteland, wiped out a huge part of Sentient hive-mind forever by accident and made cool weapons out of fallen Sentients. And blow up Tau star with said weapons.

You know, the usual.

😒

В 23.05.2019 в 15:29, (NSW)Sk0rp1on сказал:

Makes me wonder what kind of rare resources Tenno drop.

Long-long time ago I seen my lvl 3 Loki drop a Health Orb then Stalker killed him.

Edited May 25, 2019 by rand0mname

[Otaiken]

What I wonder about is where do these "new" sentients come from?

Void renders sentients sterile. This was supposed to be a failsafe by Orokin since because there's no solar rail leading to Tau then the only way to get back in a timely fashion is to use void jump and therefore nuke Sentient's replication ability. Well, they returned anyway and were indeed made sterile so they presumably did use void jumps to get back for old war. PoE lore states that the earth's sentient indeed was sterile and that he discovered that Kuva restores his ability to replicate.

So old war sentients used void jump to get back and therefore rendered themselves sterile. As such when Tenno destroyed them there were none left in the system.

So where do these new sentients come from? If they come from Tau then they should be also sterile and then go after Grineer to steal their Kuva to restore their replication abilities. Or they travelled all the way from Tau using conventional space travel since the end of old war and as such it took them all this time to actually get back.

As for why they fight us:

 - Grineer have the Kuva which sentients would be VERY interested in. And I doubt they'll just give it up. Tenno are also interested in it btw.

 - Corpus are the descendants of orokin. And orokin greed is the reason why sentients returned to wage war in the first place since they believed Orokin would ruin Tau system as they did Solar system. So Corpus are fair game for attack.

 - As for Tenno, Natah does mention that their judgemenet is coming. So presumably it's simply a matter of justice or revenge for them.

 - Gameplay has to happen.

Edited May 25, 2019 by LocoWithGun

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

3 hours ago, Katinka said:

I don't see why we couldn't co-operate with Sentients (if DE were to run that path and add non-hostile Sentients) in the same manner that we co-operate with non-hostile Grineer (Steel Meridian, Kavor), non-hostile Corpus (Perrin Sequence, Myconians) and non-hostile Infested (Helminth).  I'd be happy to see that as the conclusion of Lotus/Natah's story arc, once she's sorted her head out and stopped trying to be what others want her to be.

As to current events (no pun intended)...

  Hide contents

Frankly I don't get what DE were thinking when it came to the lore behind the Amalgams and the Ropalolyst fight.  Initially it seems that Alad is excited and proud about his new allies and business partner but then in possibly the fastest betrayal ever (from a guy who has possibly betrayed every faction in the game at some point) he starts giving us advice on how to defeat the Ropalolyst!  I mean, he usually stays on one side for at least the length of an event, betraying them next event or even one after but switching against the Sentients in the same event in which he reveals allegiance to them?  That's fast even for him!

 

Alad V is excited because he got sentient technology to work with to hybridize his units. What he doesn't like though is the fact that Natah sent the Ropalyst as a watchdog hence why he despises it and helps the tenno. He likes the new toys, he hates the fact that Natah is watching his every move and it doesn't help that the Ropalyst flies around and breaks S#&$.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

43 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

So old war sentients used void jump to get back and therefore rendered themselves sterile. As such when Tenno destroyed them there were none left in the system.

Who said there was none left in the system? The fragmented pieces of hunhow should've given you the idea that not all sentients were killed off, him and the Eidolons still alive in present time. 

 

44 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

So where do these new sentients come from? If they come from Tau then they should be also sterile and then go after Grineer to steal their Kuva to restore their replication abilities. Or they travelled all the way from Tau using conventional space travel since the end of old war and as such it took them all this time to actually get back.

They've obviously came from Tau through solar rail technology and or the sentient who Natah refers to as Mother has them all stationed on her. Well besides the fact, no conclusion can be drawn simply because it's behind the New War lore that has yet to been release.

[Loza03]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Hunhow is the LEAST likely Sentient to have a change of heart. This guy was, in the most human term we have, a "farmer", yet the moment he got his military conscription notice he went COMPLETELY mad with power and believed himself a "Destroyer of Worlds"

He is the closest thing to Hitler in the lore. And that's not Godwin's Law, I'm talking "real life actual human being Adolf Hitler", as in the poor German boy who failed at a mundane job, became a ground-level WW1 veteran, and went crazy with psychotic patriotism and delusions of grandeur and dreams of mass genocide. The main difference being Hitler was actually in charge, where the leader of the Sentient armada seems to be Hunhow's wife rather than himself.

You do realise that description fits the entire Grineer empire right? Them as a human sub-species. If any of them are Hitler/Nazi stand-ins, it's them.

They were in mundane jobs (slaves), and frequently failed or died due to genetic degredation. They were then conscripted into being fighters during the Old War. Then they went crazy with psychotic patriotism and delusions of grandeur, and starting killing everything that wasn't a Grineer, AKA Genocide. And if I had to draw another comparison, Vay Hek's tendency to bark speeches laced with propaganda is a lot more conventionally Hitler-esque than Hunhow's quieter riddles and sinister metaphors. As well as Hek being a Politician, just like Hitler - Hunhow, as far as we are aware, is not. Plus we don't know if Hunhow failed at his job either, just that he decided to stop doing it, or never started.

Make no mistake, Hunhow's psychotic, narcissistic, self-aggrandising, possessive and a whole heap of other descriptors, few of which are positive, but Hilter-like? Not really one of them. There's a lot of people in history who fit those same descriptors, including Hitler, but that doesn't really make all of them Hitler. And, considering that this is a story, such descriptors have also applied to a number of redemption arc characters in the past. Vader for example. Or Vegeta. Both of whom were redeemed over the course of their respective stories.

33 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Moving away from Godwin's Law and into intentional subtext, I really don't see the Sentients ever not locked in a brutal war of extermination with the Tenno. We're both locked in a cycle of fear, systemic hatred, and preemptive warfare at this point. Neither of us trust the other to just sit back peacefully in our respective solar systems. And on top of that, the next quest is literally called "The New War". As in a reference to the Old War. Which was Orokin + Tenno vs Sentient. Second verse, same as the first? I think so

The only way I could see your theory panning out to any degree is if we get more lore on the Sentinels, those pseudo-Sentients we found in the Kuiper Belt

You could say the same for the Tenno and the Grineer, or the Corpus, yet on numerous occasions we've banded together with them. And I know the 'Old War/New War' thing does imply that, but... this is also DE. DE loves to pull plot twists, and they've been known to use quest titles as red herrings. Remember how many people thought 'the Sacrifice' would be Lotus Sacrificing herself for us? 

It's entirely possible for the New War to be a Sentient Civil War. After all, we don't actually know much about the politics of the Sentients. For all we know, the group that wants to take over/destroy the Origin system could be the Minority. Discounting Mother as we've not met her yet, but counting the Eidolon in the past, we've met 3 Sentients, one of which was our ally, and may still be under brainwashing?

We were fine with Lotus even after she turned out to be our most hated enemy. Why not other sentients?

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

 

 

 

On 2019-05-23 at 7:00 AM, WindBlade said:

 

The sentients fight the tenno because they're literally the only thing that can kill them. When they couldn't defeat them they turned them against their creators and remember that the final directive was to kill the tenno but Natah didn't do it. The sentients are just finishing what they started and the tenno are orokin.

[nslay]

How come we have Steel Meridian and Perrin Sequence, both originating from factions that are our enemies... but no Sentient factions? Are all sentients just magically anti-everything? I thought they were intelligent beings that could make up their own minds!

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

4 hours ago, Katinka said:

I don't see why we couldn't co-operate with Sentients (if DE were to run that path and add non-hostile Sentients) in the same manner that we co-operate with non-hostile Grineer (Steel Meridian, Kavor), non-hostile Corpus (Perrin Sequence, Myconians) and non-hostile Infested (Helminth).  I'd be happy to see that as the conclusion of Lotus/Natah's story arc, once she's sorted her head out and stopped trying to be what others want her to be.

As to current events (no pun intended)...

  Reveal hidden contents

Frankly I don't get what DE were thinking when it came to the lore behind the Amalgams and the Ropalolyst fight.  Initially it seems that Alad is excited and proud about his new allies and business partner but then in possibly the fastest betrayal ever (from a guy who has possibly betrayed every faction in the game at some point) he starts giving us advice on how to defeat the Ropalolyst!  I mean, he usually stays on one side for at least the length of an event, betraying them next event or even one after but switching against the Sentients in the same event in which he reveals allegiance to them?  That's fast even for him!

 

Absolutely agree, there have to be other sentient who are opposed to the war. Afterall both the Tenno and Sentient fought eachother and suffered because of the Orokin, with the Orokin being a common enemy and gone there really is no reason for them to fight, the only reason we fight is because of the cycle that we are stuck in since the old war itself, a cycle that has to broken for benefit of both.

On 2019-05-23 at 6:13 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No two species can occupy the same niche and survive, one will always, inevitably outcompete the other and drive it into extinction. 

Competitive Exclusion Principle 

It’s the same old reason, the same as it's always been:

The Sentients know that we are a threat to their existence. We know that they are a threat to us. We will not allow them to eliminate us. They will not allow us to eliminate them. 

So we must fight until one eliminates the other. 

 

To put an historical spin on it:

"Carthago delenda est."

Cato the Elder, 2nd Century B.C.

Not necessarily true in this context, the Sentient have inhabited the Tau system and made it their home and the Tenno and other factions and cultures inhabit the Origin system.

The only reason the Sentient went to war and back to the Origin system was because of the Orokin as they knew that they would ruin the Tau system aswell. As long as both keep to their own it shouldn't be a problem.

Also in theory if there are 2 or more sentient intelligent life forms that are able to communicate and understand each other that occupy the same place I don't see why a peaceful coexistance shouldn't be possible. While it makes sense with animals and more primitive life forms, higher life forms may be an exception to this.

[(XBOX)Futarrari]

On 2019-05-23 at 8:37 AM, (XB1)UpgradeAcorn989 said:

1 I hope so, 2 we don't have eyes, 3 we don't have spleens either 4 if you want to test the drop rates then go play the endgame conclave

some warframes do have eyes though and mouths as well.

 

[Loza03]

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

How come we have Steel Meridian and Perrin Sequence, both originating from factions that are our enemies... but no Sentient factions? Are all sentients just magically anti-everything? I thought they were intelligent beings that could make up their own minds!

We haven't met enough of them, most likely. We've only met invaders, and only a handful. We know of only 4 - Natah/Lotus, Hunhow, the Eidolon and Mother.

I would imagine we'd have to go to Tau, or some halfway point, before encountering those with other ideas.

[iLightning13]

Because they (initially) wanted to wipe out all human life in the solar system.

And now they want to fuse with us to make horrific monsters that "want to die" (Amalgams).

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

You could say the same for the Tenno and the Grineer, or the Corpus, yet on numerous occasions we've banded together with them.

No, I don't really think I could say the same for them. The Corpus are opportunistic and capitalistic, not genocidal. The Grineer are genocidal, but to a far less degree than Hunhow, i.e. perfectly willing to enslave rather than kill. Both sides are also very pragmatic, and are willing to set aside their pride for critical threats such as the Infested. Grineer, Tenno, and Corpus are all fragments of the Orokin Empire -- they are enemies by circumstance rather than by inheritance, looking to capitalize on a power vacuum and scarce resources. While they are at odds to each other due to rivalries, they are not thematically predisposed to violence

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

And if I had to draw another comparison, Vay Hek's tendency to bark speeches laced with propaganda is a lot more conventionally Hitler-esque than Hunhow's quieter riddles and sinister metaphors. As well as Hek being a Politician, just like Hitler - Hunhow, as far as we are aware, is not. Plus we don't know if Hunhow failed at his job either, just that he decided to stop doing it, or never started.

Hek is a lot closer to Mussolini: dangerous and genocidal, but so narcissistic and self-absorbed that he can't actually accomplish anything

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

And, considering that this is a story, such descriptors have also applied to a number of redemption arc characters in the past. Vader for example. Or Vegeta. Both of whom were redeemed over the course of their respective stories.

I don't really see any parallels between Hunhow and Vader/Vegeta at all. I don't see anything in Hunhow that would ever be grounds for redemption. You bring up storytelling tropes, but Hunhow is dangerously close to the Complete Monster: nobody likes him, nobody outside of his minions thinks of him as anything but a threat to be exterminated, and he is never given any levity (contrast with Hek, who is equally evil but repeatedly shown to be absurd and wacky)

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

We were fine with Lotus even after she turned out to be our most hated enemy. Why not other sentients?

The big reveal in the Natah quest is showing that Lotus doesn't really have any of her heritage in her. She's technically a Sentient, but lacking all of their qualities and attributes. That is why she is not our enemy, because she lacks any and all themes of being a Sentient

This is followed up in Second Dream where Hunhow threatens to subjugate Lotus back into a Sentient: this is presented as nothing short of a complete erasure of Lotus's identity. To become a Sentient again would be to completely lose all characteristics that make her our ally. She would join our enemy, the Sentients

And as a final chapter to this, it's shown in Hostile Mergers that the entire Lotus identity is a lie. Natah was captured and brainwashed into being the Lotus, an identity that was a complete fabrication. When she is stripped of the Lotus personality (or brainwashed by her mother) she takes on a fully Sentient identity -- and IMMEDIATELY turns hostile and seeks our destruction. As a Sentient, Natah wan'ts nothing to do with us outside of slaughtering us

It is hammered in time and again, Sentient = Enemy. There is no allying. There is no truce. There is no agreement. There is only war. The Tenno and the Sentients will either flee or fight, they will not make friends

If a "Sentient civil war" were to happen, I don't think they would identify as Sentients. Perrin Sequence do not identify as Corpus, Steel Meridian do not identify as Grineer

[Otaiken]

It was Ballas who betrayed Orokin by conspiring with Hunhow to get Natah as a spy to Lua.

It very well may have been a bait-n-switch. Ballas got Margulis back somewhat, destroyed Sentients and got his revenge on Orokin for killing Margulis (though it's unclear whether he knew that would happen). Then he could get revenge on Tenno by turning Lotus against them once more.

That would make Ballas the mastermind of pretty much the entire "plot" of Warframe.

And then there's the lore tidbit about how kuva restores sentient replication ability. So there you have it, drink some red juice and you're good. There's no need to adopt a bunch of homicidal angsty teens with superpowers.

And DE really has to clear up what a sentient really is in New War. Most are the size of a bloody ship using presumably drones for ground operations and then there's Natah which is just fine being the size of a human. So are they a hive minds? Are they individuals? How does it work?

Edited May 25, 2019 by LocoWithGun