A fair Saryn Nerf that Supports new players and Keeps her Viable Infinite Scaling Untouched.

[(PSN)FK2P]

My change is simple:

This is really easy to implement. Firstly each tick of spores has a maximum damage potential of 20% of the enemy health, which means, a level 10 enemy would take 5 ticks of damage for it to die, instead of being completely nuked away and new players not being able to encounter an enemy in their mission.

A level 50 enemy would take far less than 20% of its health per tick of spores unless that has been raised significantly over time with the damage increase. As your damage builds you would not encounter the cap at all above level 45, which is where saryn becomes most balanced. She is most broken in low levels, and this change ensures that she doesn’t kill too fast without completely clearing entire maps. I think 5 ticks of damage over time is a fair minimum to take at any level. 

Of course this poses a problem because this removes the flaw of killing too fast being a punishment for her, making her spores die off early! But a good counter for this is to increase the percentage by 1% per successful integer of damage increase, this means that at higher levels the risk of building too fast is still there, but this is rarely seen in low level as enemies die out too fast anyway.

Eventhough I’m against nerfing saryn, I agree that I’m low level missions she is extremely effective, and this is a way to ensure she doesn’t completely expose new players to missions where a single enemy won’t be visible for them.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

This is really easy to implement. Firstly each tick of spores has a maximum damage potential of 20% of the enemy health, which means, a level 10 enemy would take 5 ticks of damage for it to die, instead of being completely nuked away and new players not being able to encounter an enemy in their mission.

Three Spores on each enemy, each ticking away. So the enemy will live for 2 seconds instead of 1. Brilliant

[Swagernator22663]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Three Spores on each enemy, each ticking away. So the enemy will live for 2 seconds instead of 1. Brilliant

B-but think of the new players man!

[Genitive]

I don't think Saryn needs any changes.

[taiiat]

revert Saryn to Saryn 2015, and then apply the Bugfixes that should have come but never did to that design.
that would be my avenue of attack if there was to be any.

 

more practical than mapwide Percentage of Total Health, at any rate. which is just overall better than what Spores is now.

if you wanted to really tackle an identified issue of Killing Trash Units too quickly - well, why do 90-95% of the Enemies have basically no EHP and so a single shot from a Lato will Kill that Enemy basically up to like Lv100.
generally if you pick a random Enemy out of a crowd from a Solar Map Mission, that Enemy has like 500-600EHP, and an Assault Rifle already easily reaches that in Damage per Shot with like, 4-6 Mods. not even 8 Mods.
so then, the only goal is to have the widest possible AoE, because hitting Enemies with any Damage will probably Kill them, so any Damage across the biggest AoE is just better.

Edited July 7, 2019 by taiiat

[Kwikwilyaqa]

Saryn is not unbalanced - damage types are.

She have the only damage types that actually have functionality/viability in the game (viral/corrosive), missing only radiation to have all the "good" ones. When other types of damage actually have any uses besides the Profit Taker (and are able to do damage), only them Saryn will not look as good as she is now. And remember that there is "scenarios" where frames are good - Saryn is tied to only a few, so as other frames that became or are good just because they can dominate one or two specific "scenarios" (what does not make them OP, just useful).

[BlachWolf]

Just add line of sight requirement for the spores to spread, the biggest problem with saryn is her insane range thanks to how spores spreads. 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Saryn should /not/ be changed. Because they aren't going to modify ESO; which is the main place people use her, after any nerf they put through which will make that game mode much less enjoyable.... Sorry. Correction. Much less playable. As such most people won't and you won't be able to find teams to play with. 

What they /should/ do meanwhile is revise some of the past nerfs to ember so that Saryn actually has a competitor for mass add destroying potential... Aside from volt maybe.

There are different frames for different things. Some are for stealth. Some are for melee. Some are for add clearing. 

[LunaSelenis]

3 hours ago, Swagernator22663 said:

B-but think of the new players man!

Balancing Warframe viability and effectiveness around new players is how you end up with whatever it is that happened to Ember. Please, never again.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Sayrn is fine and people are just overdramatic, i would go into more detail as to why but I'm sick of explaining this to nerf herders. Also lets be real level 165 is a low level in reality for anyone who knows how to make a half decent build and getting to that is near impossible unless you make a group specifically to do so...

Edited July 8, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

2 hours ago, BlachWolf said:

Just add line of sight requirement for the spores to spread, the biggest problem with saryn is her insane range thanks to how spores spreads. 

Line of sight on an Airborne contagion? That makes zero sense and you know it...

[DrBorris]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

revert Saryn to Saryn 2015, and then apply the Bugfixes that should have come but never did to that design.
that would be my avenue of attack if there was to be any.

Except that a bug-free version of Saryn from 2015 would just be a massive buff. Sure, it would require you to tailor your build a bit more, but the end result would be Saryn one-shotting entire tiles of enemies.

 

Want to nerf Saryn? Buff her.

Change her damage scaling to be exponential. The higher your damage per tick, the faster your damage per tick increases. This would result in your damage of Spore resetting much more often, which in turn requires you to make more use of her full kit to make the most out of your high damage strain while it lasts.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

No.  

Setting the criteria for nerfing a frame based on lower levels is how Ember landed in the crisis she's in now.  If a Saryn is in a lower level, blame the player, not the frame.

[nms.]

How about instead of nerfing everything so that it's level 5 compatible, proper matchmaking is implemented limiting the exposure of the 20 hour guy to the 2000 hour guy. Prioritize pairing the 20 hour guys with other 20 hour guys, and slight maybe that random 200 hour guy. Then give the 2000 hour guy an alternative to the garbage level 5 lith fissures, as an extra instance of a lith mission that starts at axi levels (same for meso and neo). That way the 2000 hour guy can at least get a semblance of engagement and the 20 hour guy can continue playing metal gear solid on earth, without his fun being ruined by the 2000 hour guy who literally dreads playing the level 5 mind numbing mission and just wants to get it out of the way, because there's literally no other option to crack lith relics than to forcefully play with 20 hour guys.

If 2000 hour guy wants to drop in the level 5 mission, then he's dropped with other 2000 or 200 hour guys and the 20 hour guy is protected unless it's 3am and there are no other players around, then heresy happens.

But recruit conditioning equivalent for pve is just a pipedream. So let's just balance the game around the level 5 content, that makes more sense, as is the norm here...

Edited July 8, 2019 by nms.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, DrBorris said:

but the end result would be Saryn one-shotting entire tiles of enemies.

 

Change her damage scaling to be exponential. The higher your damage per tick, the faster your damage per tick increases. This would result in your damage of Spore resetting much more often, which in turn requires you to make more use of her full kit to make the most out of your high damage strain while it lasts.

that would be a very specific Equipment choice, to even remotely be able to do such a thing. and requiring that you be fighting high enough Level Enemies for that setup to even play out.
while instead with basically any other Weapon in the game, it's localized pockets of enormous Damage, with wide reaching Support/debuffing. and the more effort you put into your Damage, the more Damage you get out of it.xx

or, you're talking about low Level Missions where the small ticks of passive Damage would Kill everything on the map. but Spores does the same thing as that right now anyways.

either way it worked better thematically. Enemies more likely to lose the infection if you aren't aggressively spreading it yourself, the capability to do big Damage Numbers but only if you put in the effort to do so, the first three Abilities fitting together in a very natural, unforced way...
just with so many limitations+bugs that it only worked sometimes and then when it did work usually what a skilled Saryn would be thinking is 'these Enemies aren't high enough Level for me to deal high Damage! damnit"

 

 

what full kit? Saryn doesn't have a full kit. you have a dedicated Ability for spreading Spores to the entire Map, and then an Ability that exists to be used as a finisher+debuff to Kill the Trash Units quickly.
while Toxic Lash can be pushed into being used as a general Damage Buff and it's a somewhat decent Damage Buff then, it really just exists to spread Spores. Miasma just exists to make Spores a bit more efficient.
there isn't a full kit. that was deleted already.

 

 

ofcourse we do have some nice creature comforts now, like both Spores and Toxic Lash being one handed. and that Guns get something out of Toxic Lash, though unfortunately despite being an expert on the Warframe and saying over and over and over again that Guns should get something from Toxic Lash too but it should not be the same thing that Melee gets.... well, we got exactly that. a lazy bandaid that partially broke the flow of the Abilites and missed the mark on an opportunity to introduce even more features to be able to mix and juggle. on top of basically every single active mechanic of the Warframe being deleted. oh well i guess.

[TeaHawk]

As stated before, you need to prioritize matchmaking issue instead of nerfin whatsoever again. People who destroyed Ember for the same reason of nonexistent balance are making me laugh. Saryn is a perfect and currently the only good frame for ESO. And we need to have a specific frame for each mission type.

The idea of level-based matchmaking is great. That should be taken in consideration by DEVs.

 

[BlachWolf]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Line of sight on an Airborne contagion? That makes zero sense and you know it...

So does molting increasing your speed. But you know this is a game not reality.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

3 minutes ago, BlachWolf said:

 So does molting increasing your speed. But you know this is a game not reality.

Actually molting does increase the ability for things that do it to move more freely and therefore faster after the fact. Back on point though I don't think she needs any nerf and is balanced just fine for late game while unable to build up her spores reliably at low levels. Line of sight ruins anything it touches and just puts it in the garbage bin which is proven by history and their is no point to add it to a otherwise balanced ability. New players will always fail to come close to the results of any established player as well regardless of what either party is using so the only way new players would not complain is if players skill and movement was nerfed. And lets say we do nerf Spores via LoS, then the crosshairs will just go to equinox who people will flock to for maximum efficiency. The best way for new players to get some action is to improve themselves to a point where they can compete somewhat or play with other new players!

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

24 minutes ago, ConsumerJTC said:

Bu... but... for the new players!

The new players can improve and get the gear like we did instead of complaining that everyone else is ruining their mission. New player complaints have ruined so many good pieces of gear if only because they want everyone else to be as weak as them in many cases. They should learn the game and then they have the right to complain...

[CuChulainnWD]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Actually molting does increase the ability for things that do it to move more freely and therefore faster after the fact. Back on point though I don't think she needs any nerf and is balanced just fine for late game while unable to build up her spores reliably at low levels. Line of sight ruins anything it touches and just puts it in the garbage bin which is proven by history and their is no point to add it to a otherwise balanced ability. New players will always fail to come close to the results of any established player as well regardless of what either party is using so the only way new players would not complain is if players skill and movement was nerfed. And lets say we do nerf Spores via LoS, then the crosshairs will just go to equinox who people will flock to for maximum efficiency. The best way for new players to get some action is to improve themselves to a point where they can compete somewhat or play with other new players!

Indeed, take Excalibur and his Radial Javelin for a case in point. He was the king of DPS until they nerfed him with a line of sight requirement. It was a tragic day. Then later on they nerfed his Exalted Blade, to fade damage over distance and objects passed through.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

Indeed, take Excalibur and his Radial Javelin for a case in point. He was the king of DPS until they nerfed him with a line of sight requirement. It was a tragic day. Then later on they nerfed his Exalted Blade, to fade damage over distance and objects passed through.

Yep, all a nerf would do is put the spotlight on the next best things which are even more powerful in certain situations. My guess would be Equinox followed by volt, at that point LoS would be on every good room clearing ability used to speed things up and then the weapons would start to get hit as well. This is a battle nobody wins and in my opinion people should be matched up my playtime up until they complete enough quests and know the game enough to do something in any mission so stupid nerfs to balanced things do not need to happen.

[BlachWolf]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Actually molting does increase the ability for things that do it to move more freely and therefore faster after the fact. Back on point though I don't think she needs any nerf and is balanced just fine for late game while unable to build up her spores reliably at low levels. Line of sight ruins anything it touches and just puts it in the garbage bin which is proven by history and their is no point to add it to a otherwise balanced ability. New players will always fail to come close to the results of any established player as well regardless of what either party is using so the only way new players would not complain is if players skill and movement was nerfed. And lets say we do nerf Spores via LoS, then the crosshairs will just go to equinox who people will flock to for maximum efficiency. The best way for new players to get some action is to improve themselves to a point where they can compete somewhat or play with other new players!

So you're telling me a snake that has molted will be faster or  better an insect like a centopiedi, molting really only helps them to grow, we humans just happend to no need that.

 

Saryn is still a problem, she has access to the best dmg types and scaling dmg, in addition she doesnt care about armor, equinox literally becomes useless in mid to high level content if you dont stack up a lot of dmg, which most of the time requires a lot of downtime. Saryn needs to be balanced.

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned from a few unconstructive posts.

[Teridax68]

Why not just prevent Spores from dealing lethal damage on their own? I think the core problem with Spores isn't simply that they kill enemies too quickly, but that they can single-handedly wipe out crowds of enemies without all that much effort. Having the ability reduce enemies to 1 health, but no lower, would fix that without having to dig too deep into the scaling or the like, and would also make Saryn more approachable while also making her play better with teammates.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not just prevent Spores from dealing lethal damage on their own? I think the core problem with Spores isn't simply that they kill enemies too quickly, but that they can single-handedly wipe out crowds of enemies without all that much effort. Having the ability reduce enemies to 1 health, but no lower, would fix that without having to dig too deep into the scaling or the like, and would also make Saryn more approachable while also making her play better with teammates.

This would drop Saryn's popularity to zero.  As much as her ridiculous attracts braindead gameplay, disabling her ability to kill using her.....abilities seems counter productive.