Please do not cave on Nightwave.

[LSG501]

6 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

The thing is, veterans don't play the game normally. 

Nightmares, starchart missions, outdoor tileset stuff -- that is normal play. The game is designed around that. Veterans don't do that. We do some assortment of sorties, occasional void fissures, endurance runs, and boss farming. We're not normal players. 

Exactly and they could have incorporated challenges for 'veterans' that take into account how they/we play rather than just making us redo things we don't actually need to do anymore....

There have been so many suggestions about challenges aimed specifically at veterans yet the best we get is 'do a x n times' or a specific boss which is supposedly hard. 

As I said earlier even the newbies who are fine with the existing nightwave will eventually get to the stage where they'll be fed up doing the same missions over and over again, especially if they get to the point where they have no reason to do said content again.

If we don't keep pushing this sort of issue DE will just do what they normally do and think it's done, we don't have to worry over that anymore and eventually players will not be drawn in by the juicy umbra forma and cosmetics because the rest of the rewards aren't enough to make them do the same things over and over.  You know as well as I do that as a veteran the only things we're really after are the things right down at the far end of the tier rewards such as the umbra forma and operator suit (this time)

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

7 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

You do realise you can enjoy the game and still see the issues which it has right...

Oh yes, of course.  And I do have issues with certain things.

But I also enjoy the wide variety of missions, regardless of whether or not I already earned the related items.

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Oh yes, of course.  And I do have issues with certain things.

But I also enjoy the wide variety of missions, regardless of whether or not I already earned the related items.

As do most of us but throw in a you must do it 'now' or you must do n of soemthing and it takes out the fun aspect of a mission for many of us.  The current Nightwave is restricting choice of how we play or what we do, a quick and dirty fix would be a lot more choice of challenges to do and a capped weekly standing (we actually already have a weekly cap this time but it's been done 'silently' by having no minions etc to kill).  Add in proportional rewarding so if you do a third of a challenge you get a third of the points for said challenge etc and imo it would make nightwave 'better'.... although I'd still prefer a more 'syndicate' style levelling and a plague star store where we can just buy what we want type of thing.

[SnuggleBuckets]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

This season is much tamer than last season due to feedback, and I'm concerned about next season.  I want Nightwave to reward us for going and doing stuff, which seems antithetical to many voices on the forums.

Over the course of my time reading Nightwave complaints for the season on both Reddit and the forums, including serious replies to threads that were originally jokes, I've found complaints about the following challenges:

And amusingly, I've noticed some people coming out of the woodwork who extol the virtues of the alert system, how earning 10,000 credits for a level 10 exterminate was rewarding or Nitain being available only at certain hours was fine.

There are just certain people who do not want to actually do anything in your game.  At some point, please cut off the hyperbolic shrieks from your actionable feedback.

I have a newer player in my clan, and I'm helping another clan of new players.  None of them want everything in the game handed to them, none of them have had complaints about Nightwave.  Almost all the complaints I've seen are from self-described veterans who should have no issue completing this content.

Please, do not cater to a minority of people who refuse to play the game.

"Seems antithetical to many voices on the forums" -- Well thanks for assuming you know what people complain about (you don't, most criticisms of Nightwave had to do with bad incentive structures, not the idea of incentive structures themselves)
Also:
"Please, don't cater to a minority of people who refuse to play the game."
That is contradicting your "many voices in the forums" claim, so which is it?
Oh right, you're just straight up asserting without any data, just pulling impressions out of your hat.
And people laud you for being a "voice of reason".
You're just another elitist gatekeeper who hates that other peoples voices are being heard, when you only want your own voice heard, out with everyone else who have problems.

Why should anyone repeat ad nauseam yet again all of our elaborate criticisms of Nightwave to another person who didn't even provide an argument, let alone any evidence, just their whining about other players, because that's what this topic is, not feedback, nothing concrete, constructive or helpful, just you going "eew, those plebs are ruining my fine establishment of a videogame".

Ugh, this place is filled with toxic people who constantly just want to feel superior to everyone else.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

14 minutes ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

"Please, don't cater to a minority of people who refuse to play the game."
That is contradicting your "many voices in the forums" claim, so which is it?

The majority of players don't complain on Reddit and the forums.  That doesn't mean that outraged individuals can't outnumber level headed posts.

14 minutes ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

Oh right, you're just straight up asserting without any data, just pulling impressions out of your hat.

I assumed everyone else who browses Reddit and the forums was seeing the same posts.  I did not write this for people with selective reading skills.

15 minutes ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

Why should anyone repeat ad nauseam yet again all of our elaborate criticisms of Nightwave to another person who didn't even provide an argument, let alone any evidence, just their whining about other players, because that's what this topic is, not feedback, nothing concrete, constructive or helpful, just you going "eew, those plebs are ruining my fine establishment of a videogame".

Ugh, this place is filled with toxic people who constantly just want to feel superior to everyone else.

Ah, another attempt to paint people who support the Nightwave system as elitist when we're defending challenges like:  Bounties.  The Profit Taker.  Sorties.  Formaing.  Bullet jumping.  Etc.  There's no "hit level cap in a survival," "do a 6x3 in a night," or anything else that would be elitist.

It appears you have not read nor considered our responses to the posts complaining about Nightwave.  No point repeating them here.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

The only bad challenges are ones that require you to just spend resources for no reason, like Gilding or the Forma one. 

[Showerwalker]

As others have said, the challenges are boring, I don't want to play NW less because it's too hard or I don't enjoy playing games, but because I want to waste less time on my tasks of the day and get on with playing.... kind of reminded me of my childhood. Anyways, I don't think NW is too much, in fact it offers too little to be acceptable for it's intentions, the repetition is too exposed and bare, the story and rewards are cool but they run parallel with the challenges and never touch, and I hope DE notice this sooner than later, perpetual content doesn't mean doing the same things forever. I'm not against reusing contents, and I 100% support it, so I'll leave this here if any DE staff is reading and I hope it's of some help in making NW better.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Showerwalker

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I have 2200 hours logged in my in game statistics.  I am mastery rank 27, every weapon I use is formaed and the majority of my favorites have rivens.  The majority of what I do in game is farming platinum or doing stuff I don't need to farm because I enjoy it.  I do not have to imagine.

 

Ok so I have a serious question then. What happens when you have more plat than you could ever realistically spend? What happens when plat becomes a High Score rather than a currency? I'm at 5k in-game more plat than I could spend, all Focus capped and 6-10 mil in each school to spare.

There is nothing worth my time to farm if I already own it. I go out of my way to not buy things with plat and instead farm it because the game is so starved for something to do at this point. I think a lot of Veterans take this tactic to entertain themselves which is why DE doesn't develop anything with Veterans in mind.

Imagine if they simply put a twist in these tasks:

• Kill The Ropalolyst without using abilities.
• Complete X sorties using the same loadout for all missions.
• Capture missions. Capture target without using stealth abilities or altering the target. (Not currently possible)
• Fishing while airborne.
• Mining while Wall latching.

Even changes like this will get repetitive and old but this is a much better starting point than what we got isn't it? I don't even know why Invasions are still a thing. The system should be reworked. They are essentially the same system as Alerts and DE should just put the two together to create a champagne progression setting. Complete an Invasion then get a multiple choice alert option. Depending on results do another Invasion with modifiers, another multiple choice alert, ect. Eventually ending in a fight like Phorid you have made easier or harder based on your choices.

[Ham_Grenabe]

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Exactly and they could have incorporated challenges for 'veterans' that take into account how they/we play rather than just making us redo things we don't actually need to do anymore....

There have been so many suggestions about challenges aimed specifically at veterans yet the best we get is 'do a x n times' or a specific boss which is supposedly hard. 

As I said earlier even the newbies who are fine with the existing nightwave will eventually get to the stage where they'll be fed up doing the same missions over and over again, especially if they get to the point where they have no reason to do said content again.

If we don't keep pushing this sort of issue DE will just do what they normally do and think it's done, we don't have to worry over that anymore and eventually players will not be drawn in by the juicy umbra forma and cosmetics because the rest of the rewards aren't enough to make them do the same things over and over.  You know as well as I do that as a veteran the only things we're really after are the things right down at the far end of the tier rewards such as the umbra forma and operator suit (this time)

I see your point, but I don’t come down on the same side  

Basically: they’ve laid out the requirements for the Good Things, and I want them, so I’ll do the tasks. The community of veteran players here tends to view rather harshly any newer players who even hint that they shouldn’t have to do certain things to get certain rewards, so I figure it’s a bit hypocritical for me to complain. I don’t like finding three sabotage caches, but that’s the rules of the game.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

I see your point, but I don’t come down on the same side  

Basically: they’ve laid out the requirements for the Good Things, and I want them, so I’ll do the tasks. The community of veteran players here tends to view rather harshly any newer players who even hint that they shouldn’t have to do certain things to get certain rewards, so I figure it’s a bit hypocritical for me to complain. I don’t like finding three sabotage caches, but that’s the rules of the game.

Don't get me wrong I want the stuff too so I'm doing the tasks, this doesn't mean I don't see the issue with the challenges and will say about it etc.  However there will come a point where I'll just go screw it, can't be bothered with this anymore.

TBH I don't think the current nightwave setup is particularly friendly for the really new players either if I'm honest (and that's ignoring the creds side of things).  I've seen posts where 'veterans' are saying you only need to do 60ish percent and someone even showed some sums based on a 10 week period and it basically meant that if a newer player wanted to get everything on the tier rewards (and I think everyone should be able to no matter level, just more challenges need completing for a newbie type of thing) they would literally have to do every daily and weekly mission AND one elite mission to hit the 300k for the entire 10 weeks, in all likelihood they wouldn't get access to the catch up mechanic either because not all newer players can do the elite challenges like eidolons etc. 

One of the suggestions to fix the issues with nightwave 1 was to add in MORE missions to pick from, not reduce them like DE decided to do... I have to say I'm more on that side because I think nightwave would be better with LOTS of things to pick from and a weekly cap (as I said earlier nightwave 2 already has a cap due to no wolfie and co).  If I think about it I think I'd like to see every week have every nightwave challenge (plus others maybe with even higher standing but a harder challenge, ie the old 1 hour+ missions), partial rewards for partial completion (ie 1/3 standing for each mission from a 3 mission challenge) a cap on weekly standing and then be left to pick and choose what I want to do per week.  Make sure there's enough challenges for all levels of players without forcing you to go and do things you don't want/need to do and I reckon you'd get more people just passively doing it every week.  By making it more of a passive thing it wouldn't feel as much like a chore.  You could even add in a catch up mechanic where you get extra standing spread over following weeks if you miss a week to ensure you hit the 300k etc. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by LSG501

[Ham_Grenabe]

I would not complain about more options, definitely not. I'd rather have 100 different bounties each week, of which you can pick X (so people don't go nonlinear and hit level 30 in a day), than what we have now.

I also wish it was a story / quest in itself, rather than (as DE Steve puts it) "an achievement system." 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[Xzorn]

I'd actually like to take this opportunity to bring up the Cred gains, costs and how they translate to other parts of the game.

• We can gain a total of 36.5k Reputation per week after rank 30 is achieved. That's 54.7 Creds per week.
• Using this season's current Cred rewards we're also getting 400 Creds for Rank 1 to 30.
• Assuming we do every single daily and weekly it takes 8.2 weeks to hit rank 30. Leaving 2 weeks extra.
• The grand total without any bonus effects like the Fugitives we had before that's 510 Creds for the Season.

Now lets take some Cred reward costs and compare them the the Warframe market price:

• Orokin Catalyst / Reactor 20p
• Alt-Helms 75p
• Shock-Camo Skin 25p
• Forrest-Camo Skin 20p

Season Cred cost of these items:

• Orokin Catalyst / Reactor 75 Creds
• Alt-Helms 35 Creds
• Shock-Camo Skin 30 Creds
• Desert-Camo Skin 30 Creds
• 10,000 Kuva 50 Creds

Besides these numbers being obviously skewed the first and most funny comparison is 10k Kuva Vs Orokin Catalyst / Reactor. According to this 10k Kuva is worth about 13 plat. When was the last time you spent 2-3 hours of time for 14 plat? Keep this in mind when you're on your 40th roll at 520 plat. Should feel great.

We can also observe by comparison that Potatoes cost too much in Creds while Alt-helms on the market have always been over priced IMO. The weapon skins are pretty much on point but still we're comparing hours of investment each week for a handful of plat. Personally if not for the Umbra Forma I'd probably skip this whole system.

[ikkabotz]

It started with deleting dark sectors, which killed clans. Then they killed the void. Then they stopped doing events. Then they removed raids. Then they made big empty open worlds. Then they made long, boring, unrewarding arbitrations. I'd like to see more development around the game adding a challenge or cooperative gameplay, not the opposite.

Edited July 31, 2019 by ikkabotz

[Velothed]

7 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I have argued in favor of replacing challenges with harder ones by choice, like swapping out Silver Grove for the Hydrolyst or the original 1 hour survival.

This is a brilliant Idea! Have one option for newer players and one more challanging for veterans or mid-range players who want a challange. I don't think someone who can't doe the Hydrolyst yet would complain about having to do Silver Grove instead. Going to look for where you proposed this to upvote^^

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Disagree totally.

I work five days a week, and the last thing I want when I get to the weekend is to spend 8 hours doing menial tasks grinding content that i've already done a thousand times for nora standing strictly due to the fear of missing out on exclusive content.

I don't have as much time to play weekly as I did when I was an unemployed slob a couple years ago, and I wish my time spend with warframe each week was spent playing content I enjoy and doing tasks I need to progress my account further, rather than doing chore lists by surrogate space mom.

In your proposed list, i hate most of these tasks, asides from the three capture missions... I don't need fishes, gems, invasions, nightmare missions, profit takers, I don't need to "prove" I can survive 30 minutes , I don't need to guild an am, I'm MR27 already ! I don't usually need to put five formas on anything, and If I , I wish I could do it at my own pace.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Leyers_of_facade]

I would love it if DE just adds the rewards in nightwave into some sort of bundle (with the cosmetics and the umbra forma) and put it in market, in that case, I will just get the bundle and not bother with this boring chore-like system.

That being said, I could see that its precisely why DE did not do that =_=

 

Honestly, I would prefer it if nightwave challenges are actual challenges, things that actually challenge the players to do something "out of the box" per say, and not the current "hey, can you waste half an hour doing this boring task for xxxx standing where the biggest challenge is not falling asleep?"

Edited July 31, 2019 by Leyers_of_facade

[ArcKnight9202]

Due to some difficulties it took me 55 minutes to finish just the animal conservation. This wasn't even an "elite" tier bounty and it took an exorbitant amount of my time.

Nightwave could be so much better but it is FAR too limited in scope every week. Why must all the "challenges" be so benign? There are also so few of them each week. Why can't there be more creative ones -alongside- the more benign ones? Maybe give a slight bonus to the ones with a twist? This way, if you can't do it, you still get like 95%. Like the example Xzorn gave above: Kill Flydolon 7k points. Kill Flydolon without using powers 7.2k points.

So far, each week has given an "Elite" that I have no interest in doing. Or in the case of Sorties, just can't do at all due to riven blocks. I have to make sure I do as much of this tedious nonsense as possible because, if I don't, the stuff I miss might get blocked behind challenges I seriously don't want to do and thus the catch-up won't kick in.

I actually liked Alerts a lot more than this. Out of sight, out of mind. A lot more work needs to be done before I would find Nightwave to be an enjoyable part of Warframe.

Edited July 31, 2019 by ArcKnight9202

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

9 hours ago, (XB1)PerverseWolf said:

Why bother going into dead content you've basically played for months on end when it was new just to get more items/mods you don't need/have an incomprehensible amount of?

It's not an elitist view, it's logic a man fishing for three days isn't going to trade his fish with a fellow fisherman to get the same fish off him

 

This is certainly an overarching problem, and I don't believe that it's a Nightwave problem.

The simple fact of the matter is it seems for many people, most content exists only to get the rewards and then be cast aside.  The content itself is not fun enough for people to come back without there being something to earn from it.

If a lot of people are playing most of the game just to get gear, and once they have the gear they don't want to play most of the game, that is an issue separate from (but highlighted by) Nightwave.

Edited July 31, 2019 by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

[Test-995]

Problems are in act count for 99% of weeks.

[Chaemyerelis]

Sticking rare rewards behind a bunch of chores I've already done is a real borefest. 😴😴😴

[Thrymm]

15 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

1 - what about the players who have not been there, done that?

2 - like complaining about how 150 bullet jumps are too hard, or claiming you're being forced to do anything NW when in fact you choose not to do it and miss out on some of the nice rewards it has?

 

Work for it.

And...... there's the magic nonsense.

1.  What about the players who have not been there and done that?  No, really, what about them?  They can still do it, nothing is stopping them from a thing, and there doesn't need to be a nightwave challenge in order to send them to this content.  For point of reference, check out the first six years of the game---no nightwave and we still did stuff.  The whole "then don't do it" line of logic that we see in so many of these tired "mah chaluunguz" threads works both ways--and really, being new here is golden, when you've got that mountain of unfinished content ahead of you to enjoy yet you don't exactly need nightwave to make it something to do.

2.  Nobody complained about 150 bullet jumps being too hard.  Frankly I wish folks would stop parroting that whole "people think it's too hard" crap.  The entire thread was based around it being tedious, arduous, and excessive.  I'd tend to agree.  It's just kind of a dumb challenge, honestly, and I've no idea why anyone would just outright defend it, as if not having stuff like that would make the game less in some way.

 

And then, for a grand cherry on top....the good ole' fashioned "Work for it".  Sorry, but I don't clock in to play this game.  Odds are that's exceptionally rare.  Nobody here should "work" in their game, not one time, not ever.  If it becomes work, it was developed wrong.  If it wasn't developed wrong and you still feel like you're working, it's probably not for you.  Just stop with that stuff.

My last thought on the whole thing is that, well....I think season two challenges are massively improved over the first.  There is a much more noticeable respect for our time, and a much better grasp of how to make bite sized challenges rather than arduous work projects.  I think it's on the right track.

 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 minute ago, Thrymm said:

And...... there's the magic nonsense.

1.  What about the players who have not been there and done that?  No, really, what about them?  They can still do it, nothing is stopping them from a thing, and there doesn't need to be a nightwave challenge in order to send them to this content.  For point of reference, check out the first six years of the game---no nightwave and we still did stuff.  The whole "then don't do it" line of logic that we see in so many of these tired "mah chaluunguz" threads works both ways--and really, being new here is golden, when you've got that mountain of unfinished content ahead of you to enjoy yet you don't exactly need nightwave to make it something to do.

2.  Nobody complained about 150 bullet jumps being too hard.  Frankly I wish folks would stop parroting that whole "people think it's too hard" crap.  The entire thread was based around it being tedious, arduous, and excessive.  I'd tend to agree.  It's just kind of a dumb challenge, honestly, and I've no idea why anyone would just outright defend it, as if not having stuff like that would make the game less in some way.

 

And then, for a grand cherry on top....the good ole' fashioned "Work for it".  Sorry, but I don't clock in to play this game.  Odds are that's exceptionally rare.  Nobody here should "work" in their game, not one time, not ever.  If it becomes work, it was developed wrong.  If it wasn't developed wrong and you still feel like you're working, it's probably not for you.  Just stop with that stuff.

My last thought on the whole thing is that, well....I think season two challenges are massively improved over the first.  There is a much more noticeable respect for our time, and a much better grasp of how to make bite sized challenges rather than arduous work projects.  I think it's on the right track.

 

1 - not everybody has max rep on fortuna to do profit-taker runs, or the Ropalolyst boss unlocked. Some don't even do animal conservation, just to name a few challenges for this week and last. I don't know what you're trying to get at here, but frankly, you gotta take those players into consideration too ya know.

2 - 

Tedious/Hard, doesn't matter. There has been a flood of these kinds of threads lately, and all its doing is making them sound fairly petty imo. The only thing "tedious" is the nightmare mission challenges, for example, maybe a couple of others. But most of these challenges are not either for most experienced players. And for the more casual and newer players? Well NW is not something I'd recommend they do anyway as they should focus on their star chart and the rest of the mainline gameplay before trying to jump into these kinds of game modes, unless they want to try their luck.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

38 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Nobody complained about 150 bullet jumps being too hard.  Frankly I wish folks would stop parroting that whole "people think it's too hard" crap.  The entire thread was based around it being tedious, arduous, and excessive.  I'd tend to agree.  It's just kind of a dumb challenge, honestly, and I've no idea why anyone would just outright defend it, as if not having stuff like that would make the game less in some way.

I didn't say they said it was too hard, I said there were complaints.

Also, you think 150 bullet jumps is tedious, arduous and excessive?  Do you walk everywhere?  That challenge is as close to "complete just by playing the game" as you can get without it being the "complete a mission" challenge.

We're not asking you to "git gud," none of these challenges are particularly crazy, including the ones labeled elite.  We're trying to wrap our brains around stuff like the idea that people are taking hours of intensive grinding to do the bullet jump challenge.  Seriously, three days to do what happens naturally over the course of a few missions, if the player has played Warframe longer than a week.

We're asking DE to take feedback from people who do basic Warframe stuff like do missions, fight bosses, and engage in basic movement mechanics.

[Test-995]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I didn't say they said it was too hard, I said there were complaints.

Also, you think 150 bullet jumps is tedious, arduous and excessive?  Do you walk everywhere?  That challenge is as close to "complete just by playing the game" as you can get without it being the "complete a mission" challenge.

We're not asking you to "git gud," none of these challenges are particularly crazy, including the ones labeled elite.  We're trying to wrap our brains around stuff like the idea that people are taking hours of intensive grinding to do the bullet jump challenge.  Seriously, three days to do what happens naturally over the course of a few missions, if the player has played Warframe longer than a week.

We're asking DE to take feedback from people who do basic Warframe stuff like do missions, fight bosses, and engage in basic movement mechanics.

Eh, i do ask DE to take feedback from people who do basic warframe stuff and also having problem with nightwave.

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Eh, i do ask DE to take feedback from people who do basic warframe stuff and also having problem with nightwave.

But the "problems" come mostly from the fact that some people are just bored of the game. Most complains are just stupid. Vets do not consider that its not content made for them. Everything from mission structure to rewards scream "mid tier content". Its a replacement for a system that they already have everything from and they are surprised that its mostly pointless to them, like come on. They forget that vast majority of players dont have everything and NW is aimed toward such players. Its boring and tedious for them the same way any other part of the game is (according to forums...).

Edited July 31, 2019 by kuciol