Can we have some content DE?

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Yes. You want to change main aspect of why ive chosen warframe over Destiny (I got it for free). Majority feels the same way. Clearly DE also feels that way. 

Ok, just so we're clear here.

 

What I want is invalid. What you want is what the devs should do.

Cool. Glad we sorted that out.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So, let me get this straight.

You don't want it. Therefore, it's wrong?

Well... Uh... Isn't that the justification that you have been using? 

You don't want things that make it easier for weak players to rapidly clear the low level content in the starchart, so those things are wrong, and need to be removed. 

 

Please understand, like you I personally don't enjoy using the ignis. I think that I may have it equipped on one of my lesser used loadouts, but I'm not sure. But I can see the allure for newer players, who don't have as many options, or more complete mod collections.

The way I see it I'm not being asked to use it, don't have to use it, and am not harmed by other people using it if that's what floats their boat. So why should I care if it's a thing? 

[kuciol]

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ok, just so we're clear here.

 

What I want is invalid. What you want is what the devs should do.

Cool. Glad we sorted that out.

Nah , im just living proof that your idea will be harmfull to the game. You want a change while i want continuation. I want what devs already do and its a reason why im here you want to take that away because reasons.

[Awazx]

il y a 27 minutes, kuciol a dit :

Yes. You want to change main aspect of why ive chosen warframe over Destiny (I got it for free). Majority feels the same way.

Your opinion is not more important than that of other people here.

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Awazx said:

Your opinion is not more important than that of other people here.

Goes both ways you know. Why should their opinion be more valid? I like the game as it currently is and I will continue to defend that.

[Loza03]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well... Uh... Isn't that the justification that you have been using? 

You don't want things that make it easier for weak players to rapidly clear the low level content in the starchart, so those things are wrong, and need to be removed.  

 

Please understand, like you I personally don't enjoy using the ignis. I think that I may have it equipped on one of my lesser used loadouts, but I'm not sure. But I can see the allure for newer players, who don't have as many options, or more complete mod collections.

The way I see it I'm not being asked to use it, don't have to use it, and am not harmed by other people using it if that's what floats their boat. So why should I care if it's a thing? 

No, actually, it isn't my only justification.

The justification I've been using is that having these easy end-game options has an impact on the game as a whole, one that isn't entirely positive. As I've pointed out, Ignis and similar strategies dominate at higher levels as well as lower ones. This means that high level gameplay requires relatively little input from the player. Another example is endurance run Octavia, T-bagging in the corner and refreshing Zenistar + Mallet. This requires very little engagement from the player. It is also a very successful means of playing the game. Other examples include the old Banshee farming strategy, and even spamming stasis with Limbo - who is my favourite frame mind you. 

The term you're referring to is a 'first-order-optimal strategy', or FOO strategy. They are easy, low-effort strategies that have reasonable output intended for new players to get used to theg ame. Call of Duty's infamous 'noob toob' is one such strategy. In theory, there isn't anything wrong with them, but left unchecked, these can cause problems with the game's overall design. In Warframe's case, the FOO strategies remain viable - and indeed have a tendency to be more viable than other strategies - long-term. This means that elements of the game where that strategy can apply must have their design shifted to accommodate. This means that the whole playerbase is affected.

Simply put, on the balance of 'effort to implement / power', FOO strategies are usually intentionally unbalanced in their favour in the early game, but also unbalanced against them later. This is not what's seen with Warframe. Thus, the game has to compensate by either A: rebalancing around FOO with enemies that are also unbalanced or B: removing large chunks of the game from the system those strategies appear in.

Resource acquisition, for example, being removed from combat efficiency and being applied to standing, fishing or mining. Or Bosses that ignore big chunks of the game's systems through weird resistances or invulnerability mechanics. Those are all the result of trying to escape the FOO strategies. And many of these are extremely controversial.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Loza03
clarification

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

21 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, actually, it isn't my only justification.

The justification I've been using is that having these easy end-game options has an impact on the game as a whole, one that isn't entirely positive. As I've pointed out, Ignis and similar strategies dominate at higher levels as well as lower ones. This means that high level gameplay requires relatively little input from the player. Another example is endurance run Octavia, T-bagging in the corner and refreshing Zenistar + Mallet. This requires very little engagement from the player. It is also a very successful means of playing the game. Other examples include the old Banshee farming strategy, and even spamming stasis with Limbo - who is my favourite frame mind you. 

The term you're referring to is a 'first-order-optimal strategy', or FOO strategy. They are easy, low-effort strategies that have reasonable output intended for new players to get used to theg ame. Call of Duty's infamous 'noob toob' is one such strategy. In theory, there isn't anything wrong with them, but left unchecked, these can cause problems with the game's overall design. In Warframe's case, the FOO strategies remain viable - and indeed have a tendency to be more viable than other strategies - long-term. This means that elements of the game where that strategy can apply must have their design shifted to accommodate. This means that the whole playerbase is affected.

Simply put, on the balance of 'effort to implement / power', FOO strategies are usually intentionally unbalanced in their favour in the early game, but also unbalanced against them later. This is not what's seen with Warframe. Thus, the game has to compensate by either A: rebalancing around FOO with enemies that are also unbalanced or B: removing large chunks of the game from the system those strategies appear in.

Resource acquisition, for example, being removed from combat efficiency and being applied to standing, fishing or mining. Or Bosses that ignore big chunks of the game's systems through weird resistances or invulnerability mechanics. Those are all the result of trying to escape the FOO strategies. And many of these are extremely controversial.

Again, please understand that I'm not particularly opposed to your suggestions, but I accept that others will be. Our game is not balanced around high level, endgame players. We can clear the starchart at MR 5. By the early teens we can access almost all content. By the late teens the benefit of levelling up is minimal. 

And from the look of things, that is where the majority of the players exist, down in the lower ranks. But high MR players like you can join up with weaker ones. I got yelled at by a kid the other day because I paired up with a newb to farm a resource. (I mostly just stood by the objective, blasted enemies who were closing in, and did quick circuits to mark stuff for him and occasionally revive people.) I was also making sure that Newb got the nightwave standing for the 20 waves. 

I could have taken Newb out into the star chart to get the resources, if he would have been able to survive and do some damage. But Earth was better for him, and I kept it spoiler free. Today that Newb is MR 6 and in theory could complete all quests and the star chart. He still wouldn't be able to keep up if he did. 

So do you balance the game around the millions like him, or the thousands like you and me? 

I can adjust my loadout to suit my needs. So can you. Newb can't. 

 

I seem to be using a lot of food metaphors this week, so why stop now, right? In my county people tend to eat a lot of spicy foods. We used to be known for a food that's literally called "pepperpot" and is pretty much exactly what you would expect it to be. But not everyone can take that sort of heat, not even in my own family where many of us really do enjoy very hot foods. So when we cook, we cook for the lowest denominator, we make sure that they're taken care of, and then those who enjoy it a bit less bland, adjust to our personal tastes. Heck yesterday I scooped several tablespoons of roasted pepper onto some spicy paprika fries, and habanero infused fried chicken. It was fastfood I bought for lunch and man, was it delicious!

Warframe is like that. Just because you and I don't enjoy it, doesn't mean that others don't find that bland tasteless existence enjoyable for whatever reason. 

I am not saying that I think your suggestions don't have merit, just that not everyone will agree with what you proposed. 

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again, please understand that I'm not particularly opposed to your suggestions, but I accept that others will be. Our game is not balanced around high level, endgame players. We can clear the starchart at MR 5. By the early teens we can access almost all content. By the late teens the benefit of levelling up is minimal. 

And from the look of things, that is where the majority of the players exist, down in the lower ranks. But high MR players like you can join up with weaker ones. I got yelled at by a kid the other day because I paired up with a newb to farm a resource. (I mostly just stood by the objective, blasted enemies who were closing in, and did quick circuits to mark stuff for him and occasionally revive people.) I was also making sure that Newb got the nightwave standing for the 20 waves. 

I could have taken Newb out into the star chart to get the resources, if he would have been able to survive and do some damage. But Earth was better for him, and I kept it spoiler free. Today that Newb is MR 6 and in theory could complete all quests and the star chart. He still wouldn't be able to keep up if he did. 

So do you balance the game around the millions like him, or the thousands like you and me? 

I can adjust my loadout to suit my needs. So can you. Newb can't. 

 

I seem to be using a lot of food metaphors this week, so why stop now, right? In my county people tend to eat a lot of spicy foods. We used to be known for a food that's literally called "pepperpot" and is pretty much exactly what you would expect it to be. But not everyone can take that sort of heat, not even in my own family where many of us really do enjoy very hot foods. So when we cook, we cook for the lowest denominator, we make sure that they're taken care of, and then those who enjoy it a bit less bland, adjust to our personal tastes. Heck yesterday I scooped several tablespoons of roasted pepper onto some spicy paprika fries, and habanero infused fried chicken. It was fastfood I bought for lunch and man, was it delicious!

Warframe is like that. Just because you and I don't enjoy it, doesn't mean that others don't find that bland tasteless existence enjoyable for whatever reason. 

I am not saying that I think your suggestions don't have merit, just that not everyone will agree with what you proposed. 

Bear in mind, the Ignis Wraith is an MR 10 item, as are many of the first-order-optimal strategies available. Octavia, for example, requires completion of the Second Dream, and the Zenistar requires at least 100 days of use, not to mention utilising Condition Overload to work at those high levels. Not exactly beginner stuff, despite playing like a FOO strategy.

With that in mind - who is being balanced for? A lot of people have said that the game is at it's best before you hit those high power levels, and whilst that's not something I entirely agree with, the Sentiment is striking. The game requires more focus, more effort for the same reward at the start of the game than at the end. It's almost like an inversion of the typical progression - FOO strategies are only available after they would normally have worn out their usefulness, and after they can cause issues. I know not everyone will agree - I'm not exactly perfect - but that does signal to me that there is at least a major irregularity in the core gameplay, one with major effects.

 

Lastly, I think this does indeed demonstrate I have more justification for my perspective and stance than @kuciol, which is how this particular tangent of discussion opened.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

With that in mind - who is being balanced for?

I don't think even DE can answer that at this point.

There's still the learning cliff for new players, and the lack of challenge for late-game players...actually a lack of challenge for everyone past early game depending on who you ask. Then there's the whole issue of the "Nuke everything" standard we have going on now which DE constantly has to account for with nullifiers or massive damage resistance.

Really I don't think there is any semblance of balance right now personally.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Bear in mind, the Ignis Wraith is an MR 10 item, as are many of the first-order-optimal strategies available. Octavia, for example, requires completion of the Second Dream, and the Zenistar requires at least 100 days of use, not to mention utilising Condition Overload to work at those high levels. Not exactly beginner stuff, despite playing like a FOO strategy.

With that in mind - who is being balanced for? A lot of people have said that the game is at it's best before you hit those high power levels, and whilst that's not something I entirely agree with, the Sentiment is striking. The game requires more focus, more effort for the same reward at the start of the game than at the end. It's almost like an inversion of the typical progression - FOO strategies are only available after they would normally have worn out their usefulness, and after they can cause issues. I know not everyone will agree - I'm not exactly perfect - but that does signal to me that there is at least a major irregularity in the core gameplay, one with major effects.

 

Lastly, I think this does indeed demonstrate I have more justification for my perspective and stance than @kuciol, which is how this particular tangent of discussion opened.

Recall that MR 10 takes 250k cumulative points. Getting to 15 takes over 500k, and 20 takes over a million. 

MR 10 wasn't so very long ago for me. I remember building the arca plasmor and thinking that it was glorious. I also remember noticing some time later that it wasn't doing as great a job, and finally learning to forma and mod my weapons, and realising how much more power my weapons. I stopped ranking up after MR 16 (I'd always gone by stops and starts for whatever reason), but I'd guess I'd be somewhere around MR 19 to 20 based on the last time I looked at my. MR 10 me was a total n00b and didn't know a darned thing compared to current me. 😅 And current me probably won't be anything close to MR 30 me when we finally get there.

But based on the the achievements percentage numbers, MR 10 me was already in the upper echelons of players. So where does the actual average Tenno fall on the scale? Pretty far down is my guess. So who do we balance for? Those vocal few who have mastered it all, or those silent majority who are struggling to do it for the first time? 

That's why I think taking away all of the OP toys from the weaker players isn't truly viable. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

On 2019-08-15 at 10:35 PM, uxx0 said:

It was a break from the usual grind. Gathering your clan mates/friends once a day for about an hour of doing something other than grinding was pretty much what kept me motivated in this game. That, breaking raids horribly and speedraiding. The latter was a completely different experience to casual raiding. Sadly only LoR(NM) was fun to speedrun. Mainly because it was the only content that required mechanical skill, rather than being a gear check. Before you say that 6x3 requires mechanical skill as well: Sure. But it doesn't feature WFs movement mechanics as much as raids did. And that's what makes it rather unpleasant to play for me.

In plain english: I'd like to see more content geared towards movement. Fixing and expanding on custom dojo obstacle courses would be a start. Having competition with leaderboards also helps sustain replayability. In case you didn't know: Raids had leaderboards as well.

 Couldn't have said it better mate.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Recall that MR 10 takes 250k cumulative points. Getting to 15 takes over 500k, and 20 takes over a million. 

MR 10 wasn't so very long ago for me. I remember building the arca plasmor and thinking that it was glorious. I also remember noticing some time later that it wasn't doing as great a job, and finally learning to forma and mod my weapons, and realising how much more power my weapons. I stopped ranking up after MR 16 (I'd always gone by stops and starts for whatever reason), but I'd guess I'd be somewhere around MR 19 to 20 based on the last time I looked at my. MR 10 me was a total n00b and didn't know a darned thing compared to current me. 😅 And current me probably won't be anything close to MR 30 me when we finally get there.

But based on the the achievements percentage numbers, MR 10 me was already in the upper echelons of players. So where does the actual average Tenno fall on the scale? Pretty far down is my guess. So who do we balance for? Those vocal few who have mastered it all, or those silent majority who are struggling to do it for the first time? 

That's why I think taking away all of the OP toys from the weaker players isn't truly viable. 

Well, that's the weird thing. Taking away the OP toys from the weaker players HAS been done. 

When I was but a wee newb I worked to get the Nikana Prime. Not bad by any means, but not exactly Memeing Strike Atterax. Thing is, Memeing Strike is only really available to people deep into the game able to farm it, or the platinum needed to acquire it. It's pretty FOO-like (little effort, large output), and it's only attainable once you go deep in.

It's this bizzare situation where the FOO strategy curve has inverted, and that's causing issues that ripple across the whole game.

50 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I don't think even DE can answer that at this point.

There's still the learning cliff for new players, and the lack of challenge for late-game players...actually a lack of challenge for everyone past early game depending on who you ask. Then there's the whole issue of the "Nuke everything" standard we have going on now which DE constantly has to account for with nullifiers or massive damage resistance.

Really I don't think there is any semblance of balance right now personally.

Again, kind of the same as above. Steve is apparently using Railjack to trial some new systems, see how people respond - this was posted around January. We might see large-scale reworks and rebalances across the board if the systems presented in Empyrean receive a positive reception. That might help with the weird state the game's in.

[Aldain]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Again, kind of the same as above. Steve is apparently using Railjack to trial some new systems, see how people respond - this was posted around January. We might see large-scale reworks and rebalances across the board if the systems presented in Empyrean receive a positive reception. That might help with the weird state the game's in.

I know that's Steve's plan, but I expect nothing but a negative reception from the masses, especially if they "nerf" anything be it directly or indirectly.

My personal hopes come down to just more relevance for things that aren't "Massive deeps", I know Railjack will make some changes, but my faith in them being positively received is very low.

[Ikyr0]

On 2019-08-14 at 9:59 PM, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Well, that escalated quickly.... 

Rip thread

rip absolutely nothing. thread is still productive and going strong. him and whoever upvoted him are in the minority.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I know that's Steve's plan, but I expect nothing but a negative reception from the masses, especially if they "nerf" anything be it directly or indirectly.

My personal hopes come down to just more relevance for things that aren't "Massive deeps", I know Railjack will make some changes, but my faith in them being positively received is very low.

Who knows? I have a more optimistic outlook, but I'm not hiding under a rock.

I honestly believe that such a thing would have a positive outcome - DE just needs to stick to their guns to some degree.

[Ikyr0]

11 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Oh no, content is consumed faster than it takes to make! What a travesty.

Because for some reason they don't design enough new gameplay loops or improve old ones, just adding more short lasting linear content. short linear content simply can't keep up with the demand, even with casual players. look at the Gas City update and the Ropalolyst. I got all my Hex in 2 days to build the two weapons and Wisp after which there was other reason to run endless Disruptions. they could have instead put in another resources to grind, or inserted Disruptions into the Arbitration rotation. again for some not-good-enough reason, they did not. This would have taken like 15 mins of coding, and potentially provided hundreds of hours of additional content for players like me. this infuriates me about DE. with the exception of Eidolons, the existing gameplay loops have hot trash rewards. it was really encouraging to hear on the devstream today they'd be improving Disruption rewards.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Ikyr0

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I don't think even DE can answer that at this point.

There's still the learning cliff for new players, and the lack of challenge for late-game players...actually a lack of challenge for everyone past early game depending on who you ask. Then there's the whole issue of the "Nuke everything" standard we have going on now which DE constantly has to account for with nullifiers or massive damage resistance.

Really I don't think there is any semblance of balance right now personally.

And maybe there shouldn't be. DE has to decide weather they're making a balance game or a power game... Can't have both.

[844448]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

And maybe there shouldn't be. DE has to decide weather they're making a balance game or a power game... Can't have both.

Conclave model balancing, there's your power and balance ala destiny

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

DE has to decide weather they're making a balance game or a power game... Can't have both.

...I don't understand why you think those are mutually exclusive.

Why can a player only feel powerful when there isn't some form of balance? Why does a balanced game mean the player can't feel powerful?

I've played Devil May Cry games for example and I felt like an unstoppable force, but I needed to actually work to feel powerful, the game, enemies and bosses were BALANCED against the power I had, I still had the "power fantasy" of being an unstoppable force, but I also had a challenge to overcome WITH that power.

There's no reason why it has to be a "one or the other" choice.

[844448]

11 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...I don't understand why you think those are mutually exclusive.

Why can a player only feel powerful when there isn't some form of balance? Why does a balanced game mean the player can't feel powerful?

I've played Devil May Cry games for example and I felt like an unstoppable force, but I needed to actually work to feel powerful, the game, enemies and bosses were BALANCED against the power I had, I still had the "power fantasy" of being an unstoppable force, but I also had a challenge to overcome WITH that power.

There's no reason why it has to be a "one or the other" choice.

We should have miniboss or boss on our level as balance, the cyber trooper where they move as fast and hit as hard as us do. Isn't that what devil may cry have?

[CandyManCriminal]

16 minutes ago, 844448 said:

We should have miniboss or boss on our level as balance, the cyber trooper where they move as fast and hit as hard as us do. Isn't that what devil may cry have?

so release executioner Garesh into the wild, but with real weaponry/defenses 

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

We should have miniboss or boss on our level as balance, the cyber trooper where they move as fast and hit as hard as us do. Isn't that what devil may cry have?

Devil May Cry has many enemies, they all fill different niches, the strongest enemies in DMC games (at least in my opinion) were usually the bosses proper, whereas mini-bosses tend to start with their first appearance as a strong 1v1 enemy and then later show up slightly degraded in durability but still as strong and fast as they were before.

Devil May Cry is a pure action game so it might not have been the best comparison, but my point was mostly for illustrating that balance and power fantasy can exist without contradiction.

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

12 hours ago, Olphalarepth said:

-snip-

I'm a vet, with 4000 hours. I don't need a longwinded explanation of whats going on in the game.

[kuciol]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

With that in mind - who is being balanced for?

Mid game players. You base all your idea of balance on false perception that game is to easy. It isnt. It is to easy for you but for majority it isnt in any way. I cant solo tridolon (3 teralysts maybe) for example or PTO. You think soloing those is not a problem based on outliers that do this kind of stuff. Vast majority wont be able to do it any time soon. There are some stupid mechanics like maiming strike you mentioned, or Rivens that i think are just stupid and should be removed but that doesnt make gameplay as whole boring. Again this is casual game and should remain as such. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by kuciol

[Circle_of_Psi]

22 hours ago, S.Dust said:

They give one announcement and then never bring it up again when it doesn't come out till three days later, or they release their statement that it wont be coming out that day at a late time. Also no I haven't made a post on this I dont think but it does sound like something I would do.

Also love how you took the time to find every example of them doing something like their still cant be a time they didn't.

I have to agree to this to some degree, DE do give a single announcement and then never bring it up again, until its "their time" to be ready, but what rubs salt in the wound for most, is that they "Show and Tell" the same announcement over and over again. Railjack was shown last year: Jul 8, 2018

Now they show Railjack once more, after teasing it over and in the Years of 2018: Until: Jun 10, 2019

They spoon-feed hype in order to try "keep players" aware and keep them playing. The fact they are going to expand Nightwave Series 2 (even tho some will finish this Monday or already have). Goes to show you alot.

I also wanted to bring up that they highlighted: "This will be our last Devstream for a while due to overlapping vacations"

 

Just goes to show you.

 

 

All in all: While we have a sample of other games like Cyberpunk 2027 (I think its called that), sure some people have good saints of waiting, but the Train that's going on lately, won't last long. Sure we are "getting" Gauss, Mod/Look Link, Disruption Update, an Emote and Caps.

Now I want you to take something in: Gauss and Disruption Update are the only two things that are Content, yes sure, I've mentioned before that adding on already exsisting content is not so much, but with what I saw, Disruption Update is more then just new toys to farm. It's an overall by the looks of things.

But lets look at the rest: Mod/Look Link is just a QOL change, an single emote with added nitpicks and Cap rising: Another QOL.

 

So the Update we're getting in terms of Content is An Frame/His Weapons and the Disruption Overall, now they chuold have other small things inside, like Lore bombs, like they did before with the Lotus Helmet thing, or add something in by srupise, like Railjack Dock, but I won't hold my breath.

 

 

P,S: Someone here mentioned about Cyberpunk, but I can't find the post, feel free to poke your head out, cuz I am interested in having DM chat about it, cuz I do love Cyberpunk