Allow augment mods in exillus slot

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

6 minutes ago, ZeroMR said:

Don't worry, you are on the winning team now.

We're seven years in...I don't see the point to brakes anymore like this argument against an extra mod slot or removing self damage...It's just remnants of by-gone era that's meaningless now beyond the last of the forum hills some want to die on at all costs...

Edited August 22, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[(PSN)Double991]

Most augments can't even beat the drift mods so I'd be all for more choice.

[TeaHawk]

I agree with OP. It should be done already. There's too much confusion about exlilus/not exilus augments. I can't find no relief.

[Keybones]

I can't believe we get something as ridiculous as Umbral forma for any frame/weapon our heart desires yet Augment mod comparability in the Exilus slot is dreadfully unthinkable.

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, Keybones said:

I can't believe we get something as ridiculous as Umbral forma for any frame/weapon our heart desires...

First of all, there was a lot of begging and whining for an Umbra Froma from the community's side after release of Umbra mods, which creates pressure on the developer's side. Whether Umbra mods should exist in the first place is another discussion. However, community again was whining and begging for more Primed mods, which Umbra mods kinda are.
I already covered this ignorant behavior here

16 hours ago, ShortCat said:

It's not like DE is assembled in their villain pub every Friday and discuss how they can flush the game with power creep. One bright-head from the community suggests something and other like-minded geniusses jump on the bandwagon. You do not have to be smart, just loud.

and here

On 2019-08-22 at 10:26 AM, ShortCat said:

Power creep happens not over night. It is a slow gradual process. Greenlighting small, seemingly insignificant power-ups led to current situation. What does one more small push. Right?

 

1 hour ago, Keybones said:

...yet Augment mod comparability in the Exilus slot is dreadfully unthinkable.

Yes, because for every Augments like Ore Gaze, there is one Chromatic Blade or Venome Dose, which can efforlessly grant 200% more Corrosive damage to all weapons for the whole team. At this point you can also allow Blind Rage or Streamline into Exilus. Or just make it a 9th slot.

At least @(PS4)FriendSharkey has given up and is delliberately dismantling the sailing ship, you on the other hand is one of the bright heads.

[Sajochi]

@ShortCat calling out another player isn't helping your argument either. Honestly seems like you want to derail this topic because you don't agree. You're allowed to not agree, but don't try picking fights with others.

In topic, yes, exilus mods have arbitrary rules. We have things like power drift in there, but natural talent is a no go. If augments are made compatible with the exilus slot, you're still making a sacrifice. Even if some augments are scewed in the power section, it only means that the augments need to be further looked at, not ignored as a whole because of powercreep, and the idea of having them in exilus shouldn't be dismissed as it is a possible route to not only open up some builds but to also get a better look as well. 

It honestly seems like the players that are against this idea are not looking at the bigger picture. They're picking one argument and trying to shut it down. Powercreep is only going to get worse, the recent set mods, amalgam mods and potentially new umbral mods (which are just primed set mods) shows that. Powercreep won't be fixed until a lot of core systems, like the modding system, is reworked. But the salt will flow if that is even mentioned in passing by the devs. Making 1 mod type locked behind a grind compatible with a slot that can only be opened with a resource that is a grind to build is not going to suddenly skyrocket powercreep into unfathomable levels. There's a heavy initial cost to it.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Sajochi

[gordianknot]

Some of Augments CAN be used in EXILUS slot...Like Mesa's Waltz, and I think one of Volt's Augments

Why not others too?

[ShortCat]

37 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

@ShortCat calling out another player isn't helping your argument either.

If attacking a dumb position is the same as attacking the person, then we reached new hights of the offend culture.

39 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

Honestly seems like you want to derail this topic because you don't agree. You're allowed to not agree, but don't try picking fights with others.

Derail what exactly? So far this thread is a polonaise of "yes man" without much substance. And presenting actual argumetns, which you deliberately ignored, is picking fights. I just try to adapt to the avarage.

 

46 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

In topic, yes, exilus mods have arbitrary rules. We have things like power drift in there, but natural talent is a no go.[...] and the idea of having them in exilus shouldn't be dismissed as it is a possible route to not only open up some builds but to also get a better look as well. 

Openning with a strawman does not help you. It is not about whether some Augments can be allowed in Exilus, which is the case already and is fine; it is about whether all Augments should be allowed. So, nobody is dismissing the idea of Augments in Exilus. Moving on.

55 minutes ago, Sajochi said:

If augments are made compatible with the exilus slot, you're still making a sacrifice.

What sacrifice? Show me one build that gets worse with an Augment in Exilus instead of a regular slot. Or you are talking about "sacrifice a regular mod slot"? In which case I already said:

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

there is one Chromatic Blade or Venome Dose, which can efforlessly grant 200% more Corrosive damage to all weapons for the whole team. At this point you can also allow Blind Rage or Streamline into Exilus. Or just make it a 9th slot.

Are you honestly trying to argue those Augments are not worth the slot?

1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

Even if some augments are scewed in the power section, it only means that the augments need to be further looked at, not ignored as a whole because of powercreep

As an extention of the previous line, there are 3 ways I understand your words:

1. Augments require further improvemnts, so that they are woth the slot. Something everbody should agree with. Including me.
2. You are talking about Augment's potential in Exilus, and in case it is too powerfull it should be tuned down to maintain compatibility with Exilus? Or we just stick with 1 and make all augments worth using.
3. All Augments belong into Exilus to present new "options". This view clashes hard with the "sacrifice" theme, as you allow uber mods to have their own space and basically create a 9th slot. Or pure power creep.

1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

They're picking one argument and trying to shut it down. [...] Powercreep won't be fixed until a lot of core systems, like the modding system, is reworked.

What argument? Power creep? So you suggest to fully embrace it, because later all existing problems could be fixed? Problems, which you create with your current course of actions in the first place. Flawless logic.

1 hour ago, Sajochi said:

Powercreep is only going to get worse, the recent set mods, amalgam mods and potentially new umbral mods (which are just primed set mods) shows that.

My answer, glad you paid attention.

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

First of all, there was a lot of begging and whining for an Umbra Froma from the community's side after release of Umbra mods, which creates pressure on the developer's side. Whether Umbra mods should exist in the first place is another discussion. However, community again was whining and begging for more Primed mods, which Umbra mods kinda are.

It's not like DE is assembled in their villain pub every Friday and discuss how they can flush the game with power creep. One bright-head from the community suggests something and other like-minded geniusses jump on the bandwagon. You do not have to be smart, just loud.

Power creep happens not over night. It is a slow gradual process. Greenlighting small, seemingly insignificant power-ups led to current situation. What does one more small push. Right?

I was arguing against community during Exilus' implementation back in 2015. I was arguing against Umbra mods and its polarity after Sacrifice Update. And now you dare to say in my face that power creep is inevitable? To make it clear offending: you are part of the problem and have no rights to complain about power creep.

[Sajochi]

@ShortCat I see there is no point to continue a discussion with you. Calling something dumb because you don't like it just means you cannot be talked to. Sure, there are plenty of others here who agree with the OP, but we're not going to get anywhere with feedback by shutting something down immediately. And yes, you are attacking, you're not discussing.

I'm still for augments in exilus, and I would like to talk about the costs vs benefits and figure out what to do to balance that out.

 

[ShortCat]

1 minute ago, Sajochi said:

Calling something dumb

Where?

[Sajochi]

20 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

If attacking a dumb position is the same as attacking the person, then we reached new hights of the offend culture.

 

6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Where?

You say it's a dumb position, implying the idea is dumb. Don't try to play coy. I'm done with you.

[ShortCat]

2 hours ago, Sajochi said:

You say it's a dumb position, implying the idea is dumb. Don't try to play coy. I'm done with you.

Glad you quoted the whole sentance :) Sad you did not understand it :(

We are indeed done, you had nothing to say anyway.

 

[-HoB-KurtOn]

On 2019-08-21 at 8:24 PM, Frompa said:

title...

 

wouldn't mind seeing an additional mod slot for augments but the exilus slot would help.

 

EDIT:  I don't care about how the exillus slot is currently used or what those mods are currently used for.  I'm just stating what I would like to see, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I don't care about being overpowered or changing what anyone is used to.  

Yea cant wait to put venom dose on saryn in a "9th" slot, because that wouldnt be too much would it.

[Frompa]

Why does "power creep" bother people?  When changes are made to increase power or play style in anyway it should be a good thing.  No one is forced become more powerful.  You always have the option to limit yourself and stay where you are.  Giving options to those who want more just allows more people to play the way they want to play.  If you like playing at a certain level, do so, find like minded people to group up with or play solo, it's your option.  Nothing is forced.  

[Keybones]

On 2019-08-23 at 5:43 AM, ShortCat said:

First of all, there was a lot of begging and whining for an Umbra Froma from the community's side after release of Umbra mods, which creates pressure on the developer's side.

Can you explain why you believe this idea is relevant to the topic?

On 2019-08-23 at 5:43 AM, ShortCat said:

 for every Augments like Ore Gaze, there is one Chromatic Blade or Venome Dose, which can efforlessly grant 200% more Corrosive damage to all weapons for the whole team.

Then that power disparity between Augments might need to be addressed as its own thing, much like the disparity between different Warframes. And because these values can be tweaked at any time, this is not a good argument against allowing Augment mods into the Exilus slot/adding a dedicated Augment slot.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Keybones said:

Then that power disparity between Augments might need to be addressed as its own thing, much like the disparity between different Warframes. And because these values can be tweaked at any time, this is not a good argument against allowing Augment mods into the Exilus slot/adding a dedicated Augment slot.

Personally, I'd say it's a terrific argument for a massive augment overhaul -before- changing how slots work.

 

[ShortCat]

12 hours ago, Keybones said:

Can you explain why you believe this idea is relevant to the topic?

It was a response to the "inevitable power creep" argument. Was all in the post you quoted that part from.

12 hours ago, Keybones said:

Then that power disparity between Augments might need to be addressed as its own thing, much like the disparity between different Warframes.

On 2019-08-23 at 2:38 PM, ShortCat said:

• Augments require further improvemnts, so that they are woth the slot. Something everbody should agree with. Including me.
• You are talking about Augment's potential in Exilus, and in case it is too powerfull it should be tuned down to maintain compatibility with Exilus? Or we just stick with 1 and make all augments worth using.
• All Augments belong into Exilus to present new "options". This view clashes hard with the "sacrifice" theme, as you allow uber mods to have their own space and basically create a 9th slot. Or pure power creep.

One more: atm Augments are already stronger in most cases. Furthermore, the more popular Exilus mods are Drift mods, which grant slight stat improvements. In case you decide to use an Augment in Exilus you also free a slot, that is not confined with Exilus limitations anymore, and as nobody is using Power Drift for its knockdown resist or Cunning Drift for extra slide, there is no reason to consider it over all the other power mods. Coaction Drift would be an exception with its Aura boost, but for everything else there is a better alternative. Exilus mods will die the moment you allow all Augments into Exilus slot.

12 hours ago, Keybones said:

this is not a good argument against allowing Augment mods into the Exilus slot/adding a dedicated Augment slot.

Why? How about you present reasonable arguments for your ideas?

Edited September 1, 2019 by ShortCat

[Nerf_SupYo]

On 2019-08-21 at 2:46 PM, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Been suggested multiple times, but I agree. The fact some augments work in the exilus slot makes it even more confusing as it it, plus there's so many augments that are band aid mods for flawed or lackluster abilities that it sucks we have to waste one or more main slots for these augments. Making all augments compatible would bring consistency and free one more modding slot for more important stuff like survivability mods or energy mods.

Take Ash for example. I pretty much have to use seeking Shuriken because the base ability kinda sucks and is rather useless without armor stripping. I also have to use fatal teleport because the teleport kill is unreliable without it (when I teleport close to a LVL 150 plus bombard, I want it 💯 percent dead). Likewise, Smoke Shadow is a cool gimmick, but am I going to waste a mod slot on something that could be part of ability by default. Being able to offload one to exilus (or better, a dedicated augment slot) would be sweet.

 

Agreed, and applies to so many frames. I think most of this could be resolved just by adding the function to ________ ability and killing the augment in general.

[Ikusias]

Honestly augents feel more like something that you should work for to obtain and than make permanently part of a frame... with prime frames coming with some preinstalled.

Why? because most augments are more or less worthless and the majority of the remaining ones are bandaids to big faults in the powers they modify.

True, there are outliers that feel very powercreepy, but those are the absolute minority and simpthom of other issues.

Dedicated unlockable slots for augments would make sense, as paying for their "mod power" in "mastery ranks". Heck even treating augments like arcanes would make sense and keep syndacates relevant for longer!

 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Same old tried and true arguments about power creep power creep power creep. 

Power crunch is also a thing. 

Way too many mods in this game are trash. Why? "Because of power creep!" no. Because DE won't periodically balance their modding system. And like it or not, buffs are usually more effective at solving the problem than nerfs. "Well this mod has become literally required on most builds, so we're going to nerf it so that people will try to use other things and.... wait why can't anyone complete this event, this event, this event, or this event anymore?" Game companies assign metas, because by specifically designing an event around certain weapons, certain classes, etc, to be used on that activity, it allows them a central structure to build around. Which is why Saryn is perfect for ESO, and why Trinity was nerfed. Because they wanted people using saryn, volt, etc, they didn't consider that it would be easier to nuke things with trampoline trinity. It screwed up their meta. 

Problem is when you assign meta, after meta, eventually certain things you have left out of the meta for long enough become trash...and other things have to be trash to be part of the meta. For instance the masochism exploit for Chroma. Take your throwing stars, put on concealed explosives, throw them at your feet until you have max armor and damage, pull out lanka, say goodbye to eidolon. They built that encounter knowing people would do that, so as such concealed explosives can't be buffed because it would instantly kill Chroma and make Eidolon hunts far more S#&$ty of an experience.

They really need to, just every once and a while, look over all the mods, and buff where it needs to be, and nerf where it needs to be. Multishot being nerfed would result in massive outcry.................. significantly buffing fire rate mods to potentially do more damage in less time on certain weapons at the expense of burning your magazine faster, would probably be a counter for multishot. you use it at a price, more damage, faster ammo burn, vs multishot increasing damage less but doing so at far better ammo economy. And the multiplier for bows needs to be adjusted to work on all charged weapons. Right now there is never a viable excuse to not have multishot on your weapon build. That's not power creep. That's a result of bad balancing decisions.

Edited September 2, 2019 by (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2019-08-21 at 2:24 PM, Frompa said:

EDIT:  I don't care about how the exillus slot is currently used or what those mods are currently used for.  I'm just stating what I would like to see, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I don't care about being overpowered or changing what anyone is used to.  

☝️

That's a really, really, really bad reason for wanting something to change. 

 

Want it to change because it would fix something broken. 

Want it to change because it would be a clear improvement. 

Want something to change because it would provide an option. 

 

 

But ffs don't stand there stamping your little foot and insisting that it should change because you "just want it". 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Problem is when you assign meta, after meta, eventually certain things you have left out of the meta for long enough become trash...and other things have to be trash to be part of the meta.

Stop. You're spouting complete nonsense. 

Do you even understand what a "meta" is? DE doesn't assign metas. People find them by experimenting or by crunching the numbers. 

The majority of things aren't "trash", they're "trash when compared to the current meta, if you want to complete this in the most efficient way". 

It's like how neither Gara nor Limbo are included in the group Eidolon hunting meta, but they're in the solo Eidolon hunting meta. Different jobs, requiring different tactics to be "most efficient". Does that make Limbo trash for taking down Eidolons in groups? No, because he's more than capable, it just won't be quite as fast as some of the other combinations. 

 

Seriously, it's time to wean yourself off of youtu.be and start thinking about the things you are saying, instead of just parroting what people looking for views tell you. 

[(XBOX)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy]

For the record: Power creep actually has nothing to do with the relation of player power versus content difficulty. It actually refers to the power of rewards versus like rewards, and the resulting obsolescence of the lower tier fare.

For players, the release of new, more powerful weapons making older weapons pointless to use would be an example of power creep. Rivens, which have made players more powerful, would not be an example. Quite the opposite actually, since rivens are designed to make previously obsolete items more powerful to compensate (YMMV) and thus, despite increasing player power, actually combats power creep (in theory at least).

For content it would be releasing a new mode/level/raid/expansion with better loot that makes previous content unrewarding by comparison. This funnels players into this one drop of content, and makes the rest of the game obsolete due to lesser rewards. Most games do this with raids, increasing reward drop rates dramatically and giving exclusive, better gear drops from those raids, making all other content basically pointless to play if you can manage the raids. And of course, since devs tend to funnel better content into newer raids it furthers that creep, making older raids obsolete as well, and thus relegating "end game" to one singular piece of content.

That's actually what power creep refers to.

[Frompa]

shameless bump 🙂

[Avienas]

On 2019-09-02 at 2:45 PM, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

For the record: Power creep actually has nothing to do with the relation of player power versus content difficulty. It actually refers to the power of rewards versus like rewards, and the resulting obsolescence of the lower tier fare.

For players, the release of new, more powerful weapons making older weapons pointless to use would be an example of power creep. Rivens, which have made players more powerful, would not be an example. Quite the opposite actually, since rivens are designed to make previously obsolete items more powerful to compensate (YMMV) and thus, despite increasing player power, actually combats power creep (in theory at least).

Sadly outside of those who are those cult lovers of ancient weapons that would only be mastery fodder for the average player, riven mods just simply turned into more abuse filler on various weapons. Such as when bows got buffed, Daikyu became a new eidolon buster but likely one of the first things people thought about is, what kind of riven they will need to turn this thing into a one-shot monster for eidolons. 

Just like how many systems got left unchanged (and now we have a massive controversy between a drop interaction getting nerfed then all of a sudden a booster comes out), riven mods should of honestly been tweaked proper to give ridiculous amount of power to weapons with little use and weapons that get used to absurd levels as a norm would be worst then a augur type filler mod, all 3 lines in total being worst at how it should of been like.

Which would of helped if said riven mods on top of a POPULARITY balancer would also of included a WEAPON DESIGN balancer, basically comparing said weapons to the commonly used strong ones or the averagely used ones and put on a % bonus skewer where if the weapon was a skana, it would have more resistance to retaining a high disposition, but if it was say a cornith, then it would have a harder time to get itself out of what would be trash disposition it would be stuck in due to being one of the most popular shotguns at the moment).

Quote

For content it would be releasing a new mode/level/raid/expansion with better loot that makes previous content unrewarding by comparison. This funnels players into this one drop of content, and makes the rest of the game obsolete due to lesser rewards. Most games do this with raids, increasing reward drop rates dramatically and giving exclusive, better gear drops from those raids, making all other content basically pointless to play if you can manage the raids. And of course, since devs tend to funnel better content into newer raids it furthers that creep, making older raids obsolete as well, and thus relegating "end game" to one singular piece of content.

That's actually what power creep refers to.

Sadly you can count the number of actual better loot in terms of mods down to likely less then the numbers you can count on your fingers, maybe even only one hand if we get more specific like with warframe loadouts for new mods. Plus i would likely not count loot that is way too close to the same level of stuff we already have, that kind of fits more slightly to different options of loot then better loot, because i am sure people like rapid fire rocket launchers with one of them being homing rockets and the other can apparently be used in eidolon busting now.

Granted some companies have the brain power to do things in their game like rotate content and sometimes update the reward pools regularly which can keep older content fresh, even if its say the same 3 raids as usual but they get some new kind of loot sticking to the theme of what they are about. Especially if they introduce new resources, but have it more fit to cover numerous old type of resources that got merged into it, instead of it just adding a new resource everyone can only chase in X content, meaning everyone is focused on that content instead.

Well sadly i cannot expect D.E. to condense sorties into a weekly thing and then show what each week`s sorties will focus on X faction at the start of the week, plus allow people to spam the same sortie, 7 times in a day to wrap up the weekly or players can just do it old-school and do one sortie a day if they wanna be that usual casual. Oh plus tidy up the resources and maybe make each clear of said sortie would give like 5 or even 10 of the invasion tier resource on top of a currency to spend on whatever you want in the `sortie dispatch shop` to replace that silly randomized loot annoyance.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Avienas