Get rid of low effort damage reduction abilities

[selig_fay]

Level of mobs is growing and personal protection must attend even on thin frames, let this and a temporary measure in the form of reducing damage. Nobody likes getting oneshotes and even thin frames are capable of facetank at 30-50 levels. (I mean the ones you described.) If you mean that such protection is peculiar only to tanks - no. Tanks have already evolved and have infinite HP (including walls) or invulnerability mechanics.The problem isn't damage reduction. The problem is the infinite energy to activate this decrease. The energy at the moment, the only limit is the players with ability with energy drain.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

23 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

Now you are just being lazy. Create your own challenge and stop asking people to spoon feed you.

That would work if warframe was a sandbox game, sadly for you, it's not

Time and time again the devs admit that they need to add more challenge, and they try to add more difficult content like arbies and eso...i love them for that, but the key word here is try

 

[Xepthrichros]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Time and time again the devs admit that they need to add more challenge, and they try to add more difficult content like arbies and eso...i love them for that, but the key word here is try

And time and time again when that new content of enemy arrives, the community tells them to nerf the enemies who are supposed to provide the challenge.

Get the hint: More people in this game dislike challenges than like them. If you want to make a challenge, do it yourself. Don't impose your standards of challenge on others.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Level of mobs is growing and personal protection must attend even on thin frames, let this and a temporary measure in the form of reducing damage. Nobody likes getting oneshotes and even thin frames are capable of facetank at 30-50 levels. (I mean the ones you described.) If you mean that such protection is peculiar only to tanks - no. Tanks have already evolved and have infinite HP (including walls) or invulnerability mechanics.The problem isn't damage reduction. The problem is the infinite energy to activate this decrease. The energy at the moment, the only limit is the players with ability with energy drain.

I have no problem with tanky warframes having tanky abilities, i also have no problems with support warframes having beefy and tanky abilities

What i have(or had) a problem with is dps warframes dealing millions of damage and having insane ehp because of abilities

What i offered wasn't nerfing the damage or nerfing the amount of dr

What offered was no or limited DR when you're DPSing and no or limited DPS when you're tanking 

[Veridian]

I'm just bumping this to keep the thread going.

BRB, bumping the "Volt needs nerf", "Rhino is bad for players", "Inaros is for afk players", "Limbo stops gameplay" and "When will something be done about Saryn" threads.

Hopefully DE will listen to all of those and we will have a proper CoD clone.

[Peter]

Double post.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Peter

[Peter]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Idk what kind of build you're running but my build easily can do everything, nuke with 4...get consistent and always rising damage with her 2 that not only protects me with insane ehp but kills anything that i get close 

Anything that's not touched by the arbie drone gets one shotted ...i went on a 40 waves of defense with a couple of friends as gara and i was the main damage dealer/nuker ....oh wait did i forget to tell you that you can cast splinter storm on your sentinel and let it have the same damage scaling too? So you're basically dealing infinite damage TWICE ...tell me that's not OP just try...

If you frequently loose splinter storm then i'm not the one playing gara wrong

 

Like i said...i don't want to nerf DR, i don't want to merf damage...i just want to provide an exchange...you want infinite damage...you're gonna have to loose the DR and vice versa 

Why does that suck? Just because you can't be god mode? 

 

It seems to me that someone did not like to see Gara's little friend killing and decided to do something about it.

🤣

If you do not like the style of play could start modifying your build or even look for another hobby, this is not a Dark Souls.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Peter

[selig_fay]

35 минут назад, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk сказал:

What i have(or had) a problem with is dps warframes dealing millions of damage and having insane ehp because of abilities

And what DPS have crazy resists? Saryn, Yes, nerf her armor to the level of the Trinity. Gara - the storm is not effective means of applying DPS, as in fact it is a melee weapon with infinite damage that still need to be added. Literally, the mine operator is better in this. Garuda has the same shield as the Volt, you want to nerf both of them? Titania contrary to popular opinion is not DPS and her protection is large. Mesa - resist protects only from projectiles and has synergy with 4 ability to. Of the equinox? Not has good protection. Mag - not has good protection. Mirage - has protection, but she is related to her playstyle. 

If you want more DPS frames poor defence - well, you have the right to demand this. But I don't think a runner like what you want.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

7 minutes ago, Peter said:

It seems to me that someone did not like to see Gara's little friend killing and decided to do something about it.

🤣

 

17 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

I'm just bumping this to keep the thread going.

BRB, bumping the "Volt needs nerf", "Rhino is bad for players", "Inaros is for afk players", "Limbo stops gameplay" and "When will something be done about Saryn" threads.

Hopefully DE will listen to all of those and we will have a proper CoD clone.

Sigh

No hope...

Fine have it your way, stick with your OP builds, your one shotters, you're thousands and thousands of ehp

If you have fun playing god then that's fine i can get that, but some players want challenge and eventually all of them will get bored and want something more than casually killing everything and anything in the game with just pure muscle memory

[Colyeses]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

If you have fun playing god then that's fine i can get that, but some players want challenge and eventually all of them will get bored and want something more than casually killing everything and anything in the game with just pure muscle memory

Your problem is that, while you have the opportunity to pose your own challenge for yourself, you're of the opinion that everyone else should have their option to play comfortably and for fun taken away, because that's not what you enjoy.

As said before, slot some stupid mods, make a dumb build, and make things challenging for yourself. Try some new stuff. 

Don't come crying to DE that other people are having fun and you want that to stop.

[Peter]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

If you have fun playing god then that's fine i can get that, but some players want challenge and eventually all of them will get bored and want something more than casually killing everything and anything in the game with just pure muscle memory

There is a reason why your Warframe is customizable, don't you like the supposed god mode? Change the build but don't think that they will change the whole system because someone wants to play hardcore.

[Veridian]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

Sigh

No hope...

Fine have it your way, stick with your OP builds, your one shotters, you're thousands and thousands of ehp

If you have fun playing god then that's fine i can get that, but some players want challenge and eventually all of them will get bored and want something more than casually killing everything and anything in the game with just pure muscle memory

You write as if you wanting challenge grants you some sort of superiority over the "plebs" that don't.

I play plenty of games that involve "challenge". What drove me into Warframe is that unlike these other games, I don't feel like a turd in the wind and I get to relax feeling like the big bad in the room not only in a cut scene for once or depend on a random group of 3-20 players lacking basic competence to achieve victory.

You want challenge?

Try professional curling.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Ver1dian

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I get what you're saying, but I think the solution may need more refinement before it could be considered. I definitely think more powerful abilities should require far more effort than they do.

But, I think that Gara is a bad example. She can get insane numbers for offense with her shield, but it requires constant maintenance and energy upkeep to achieve. That's, appropriately, more effort than probably any other ability in the game. And that's coming from an Ash main that has to pinpoint every single target that I want to kill (multiple times if I want more marks).

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

29 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

You write as if you wanting challenge grants you some sort of superiority over the "plebs" that don't.

No no i don't mean that at all, but actually i got tired of explaininh my point over again, so i just meant what you love to do in the game

But eventually some players do get burn out 

And some players look for enemy balance and what not, when they don't realize how effortless some of our defensive abilities are, 

I guess it doesn't matter anymore  and if we're honest we have both types in the game

Effortless defensive abilities with no exchange, and other ones that requires more time 

 

I just wish we could implement that more

But maybe i'm exaggerating the amount of DR abilities we have

Edited August 22, 2019 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk

[TeaHawk]

2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And time and time again when that new content of enemy arrives, the community tells them to nerf the enemies who are supposed to provide the challenge.

Do you remember that wonderful Executioner Garesh. He was a wonderful guy. I feel like I was the only player chasing him in the whole squad.

[Teridax68]

As unpopular as the proposal may be to some, I have to agree with it. While I do think some frames deserve to be more survivable than others, we are currently in a game state where:

• Tanky frames often have tens or hundreds more times more effective health than squishy frames. This makes the game impossible to adequately balance because:
  • Balancing enemy damage so that tanky frames have even a chance at dying means squishy frames get vaporized (this is currently the case in high-level content).
  • Balancing enemy damage so that squishy frames have a reasonable chance of surviving means tanky frames become immortal (this is currently the case in most content).
• The vast majority of survival abilities are done in the absolute least interesting way possible: there is no appreciable gameplay to pressing a button every minute or so for some damage reduction, and what could be an interesting ability instead becomes a perfunctory steroid.

If this were one or a few isolated cases, that'd be fine, but we're at a point where every frame basically needs some boring 90% damage reduction steroid on their kit just to not blow up instantly in content relevant to more experienced players, regardless of the frame's theme or gameplay intent. In an ideal world, we should definitely have frames with survival abilities, as well as frames with nukes, and so on, but having both at the same time should not be considered the sole standard for late-game viability, nor does access to either have to exclusively be implemented as going invincible or clearing an entire room with a single, idle button press.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

So nerf the damage reduction abilities just for nerfs sake and you thinking they do to much for to little then? I dont think I could ever agree with that and it would not be taken well by the community so it aint gonna happen either way. I think your just trying to make a large group of frames that are just fine as is much worse overall just because YOU dont like them. I have never seen another player complain or ask such a thing so your just the fringe minority who wants nerfs on top of nerfs and wish to ruin everything people love! Please just quit the game if you have a problem with how it is instead of trying to change it to suit YOUR wants and needs...

Edited August 22, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander

[000l000]

Il y a 11 heures, TeaHawk a dit :

Even with 300% melee damage riven and all damage mods on jaw sword, you will only have around 50k damage while breaking your mass vitrify with a high duration build and acceptable range. Only 50% of that damage is stacked in your shatter shield. That means that to have 1.000.000 damage you have to recast it 40 times. And you won't be wasting energy because of risk of loosing stacks. An average time between casts of mass vitrify must be around 22 seconds. On average you have to maintain your shatter shield while continuously stacking damage at least for 15 minutes in order to reach 1.000.000 damage. I don't think it's that op, as long as you have to be so concentrated on time management while playing. You could not renew your shatter shield at time? You lose all stacks and must restart at ground zeros. It's just rewarding. And it should stay rewarding. It's just that active gameplay DE wants players to be engaged in.

To mention, you should invest in riven and mods to reach these levels of destruction.

I don't get your point at all. In a few shatterings only you have enough damage to kill everything in your path. Extra damages are only useful to scale with endless mission's enemies level, why would you care about having 1.000.000 damage anyway ? Most common enemies have less than 200-300k health at level 160...

I don't need a lot of shattering to be able to kill any current level enemy, even bursars or elite at some point, and Gara can't waste her energy because of Spectrosiphon augment mod only.

Gara is one of the best overall frame around, she's lacking of popularity cause (1) no fancy frame (2) still no prime (3) "overcomplicated" - you can't play her effectively spamming her 4th only and the most important part (4) most players don't have a clue about what's going on in this game - they're complaining all day here about frames when they don't even understand how they should be played or which synergy they have.

Inifinite scaling damage, 95% DR, infinite energy orbs, lure and exploding walls... Seriously, each time i play her content become so easy suddenly.

[TeaHawk]

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

I don't get your point at all. In a few shatterings only you have enough damage to kill everything in your path. Extra damages are only useful to scale with endless mission's enemies level, why would you care about having 1.000.000 damage anyway ? Most common enemies have less than 200-300k health at level 160...

I don't need a lot of shattering to be able to kill any current level enemy, even bursars or elite at some point, and Gara can't waste her energy because of Spectrosiphon augment mod only.

Gara is one of the best overall frame around, she's lacking of popularity cause (1) no fancy frame (2) still no prime (3) "overcomplicated" - you can't play her effectively spamming her 4th only and the most important part (4) most players don't have a clue about what's going on in this game - they're complaining all day here about frames when they don't even understand how they should be played or which synergy they have.

Inifinite scaling damage, 95% DR, infinite energy orbs, lure and exploding walls... Seriously, each time i play her content become so easy suddenly.

Did you actually read the post I've been answering to:
-> I guess players do want to have stacks of 90% damage reductions and deal millions of damage overtime at the same time
I've explained how exactly you're getting millions of damage. That's all.
->Gara is one of the best overall frame around
I'm not saying the contrary.

[Wolfchild07]

I don't play Gara, but since Nezha's dr is also 90% and I have played him alot, then I'm going to just say that he still gets one-shotted...through his ward...so it needs to be buffed, not nerfed.

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Unlike zephyr for example...why have a 360° shield that evades 100% of damage when she's very fast and mobile....would've been better if turbulence damage evasion is based on zephyr's air velocity, the slower she is in the air the more damage she evades

I was starting to support your arguments until you lost me here.

Mostly because I played Zephyr on her release and Turbulence went through many shifts in how it does what it does. And one of those stages was an aura of Accuracy reduction based on a percentage. You know why they ditched that? Because enemy accuracy scales up, and simply scaled to the point that even with 99% Accuracy debuff on the enemy, the 1% of shots that hit would kill you outright.

Turbulence is one of the few absolutely balanced defense abilities in the game right now. Duration based, cannot be recast until the ability ends making you have to be aware of the timer and your weak moments, only removes one kind of damage (ranged) and not all of it (flame throwers), makes any in-attentive Zephyr player pay dearly for staying in range of melee, not noticing the glowing blue orbs on the ground, or trying to run into enemies face-first, and is almost entirely useless against an entire faction of enemies with the exception that Ancients can't hook you and standing on a pillar can become a viable tactic again. Also, if you try to nerf your range to get better duration, slower projectiles can actually penetrate the aura far enough to still hit you before they're redirected, especially if you're standing close to the enemy, and you're also more likely to divert a Bombard/Napalm rocket into the ground at your feet rather than off at an angle outside of it's AoE range.

Look...

Warframe is a horde-based game. And it contains many situations where you do not actually want to be killing enemies, except for very specific enemies.

The enemy is not, and never will be, challenging without a major AI upgrade and a massive shift in how both we and the enemy deal and take damage.

Turning every single encounter with them into the equivalent of Quake's 'rocket tag' mode (the one with the fastest shot wins) will not create challenge, it will create frustration.

It will create more and more situations where people will shout 'Oh come on! I killed them! That's BS, I shouldn't have died there' because instead of having a reliable defense in a game where they're one against hundreds, they have to instead consistently be killing any and every enemy in sight or you die.

I will agree with the single point: Situational defense does allow for many Warframes to have a better power balance. Volt, for example, has a literally invulnerable shield ability that even protects him from AoE damage, the weakness to it being that it's a single pane and you have to recast multiple to have total defense from all angles. As its own balance, the lack of full protection means it can also add damage as an incentive for hiding behind it. But guess what? It's a fire-and-forget ability. You go away for 30 seconds and come back, it's still there unless you've hit your max and replaced it with another elsewhere, so even as a situational ability, it's practically no different than the damage reduction buffs we get. It can't do everything and so Volt is balanced to be able to do more damage overall than, say, a Zephyr, because his defense function is more situational than hers. And yet, you still have a duration based defense ability to rely on, even if it's situational.

You use the ability and you forget about it, because Warframe has more important things to do than make you constantly aware that your Defense is only going to work under certain arbitrary conditions.

Duration or Drain, these abilities are allowed to be long-lasting buffs because the game literally relies on you being able to clear out constant hordes of enemies, paying attention to them for more time than you pay attention to your UI or your defenses.

You get Damage buffs, Damage reduction buffs, you get temporary Invincibility buffs that result in durations of Crit buffs, you get total Invulnerability buffs that are reliant on Drain or on how much damage you soaked up to charge them, you get Invisibility buffs, you get long-lasting enemy slows, you get temporary enemy freezes, you get durations of every single type of buff under the sun in Warframe.

And because of that you get the entire gamut of casting management types for buffs and debuffs from the simple fire-and-forget all the way through to the active and maintained by action type.

None of these are a bad thing to have in Warframe. Not a single one.

Getting rid of just one type of defense ability won't make the game more challenging. The issue of Challenge in Warframe is deeper than that.

Try to make the game more challenging by actually introducing challenges to our functions, not by nerfing our functions to match a sub-par level of challenge.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

6 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I was starting to support your arguments until you lost me here.

Mostly because I played Zephyr on her release and Turbulence went through many shifts in how it does what it does. And one of those stages was an aura of Accuracy reduction based on a percentage. You know why they ditched that? Because enemy accuracy scales up, and simply scaled to the point that even with 99% Accuracy debuff on the enemy, the 1% of shots that hit would kill you outright.

Turbulence is one of the few absolutely balanced defense abilities in the game right now. Duration based, cannot be recast until the ability ends making you have to be aware of the timer and your weak moments, only removes one kind of damage (ranged) and not all of it (flame throwers), makes any in-attentive Zephyr player pay dearly for staying in range of melee, not noticing the glowing blue orbs on the ground, or trying to run into enemies face-first, and is almost entirely useless against an entire faction of enemies with the exception that Ancients can't hook you and standing on a pillar can become a viable tactic again. Also, if you try to nerf your range to get better duration, slower projectiles can actually penetrate the aura far enough to still hit you before they're redirected, especially if you're standing close to the enemy, and you're also more likely to divert a Bombard/Napalm rocket into the ground at your feet rather than off at an angle outside of it's AoE range.

Look...

Warframe is a horde-based game. And it contains many situations where you do not actually want to be killing enemies, except for very specific enemies.

The enemy is not, and never will be, challenging without a major AI upgrade and a massive shift in how both we and the enemy deal and take damage.

Turning every single encounter with them into the equivalent of Quake's 'rocket tag' mode (the one with the fastest shot wins) will not create challenge, it will create frustration.

It will create more and more situations where people will shout 'Oh come on! I killed them! That's BS, I shouldn't have died there' because instead of having a reliable defense in a game where they're one against hundreds, they have to instead consistently be killing any and every enemy in sight or you die.

I will agree with the single point: Situational defense does allow for many Warframes to have a better power balance. Volt, for example, has a literally invulnerable shield ability that even protects him from AoE damage, the weakness to it being that it's a single pane and you have to recast multiple to have total defense from all angles. As its own balance, the lack of full protection means it can also add damage as an incentive for hiding behind it. But guess what? It's a fire-and-forget ability. You go away for 30 seconds and come back, it's still there unless you've hit your max and replaced it with another elsewhere, so even as a situational ability, it's practically no different than the damage reduction buffs we get. It can't do everything and so Volt is balanced to be able to do more damage overall than, say, a Zephyr, because his defense function is more situational than hers. And yet, you still have a duration based defense ability to rely on, even if it's situational.

You use the ability and you forget about it, because Warframe has more important things to do than make you constantly aware that your Defense is only going to work under certain arbitrary conditions.

Duration or Drain, these abilities are allowed to be long-lasting buffs because the game literally relies on you being able to clear out constant hordes of enemies, paying attention to them for more time than you pay attention to your UI or your defenses.

You get Damage buffs, Damage reduction buffs, you get temporary Invincibility buffs that result in durations of Crit buffs, you get total Invulnerability buffs that are reliant on Drain or on how much damage you soaked up to charge them, you get Invisibility buffs, you get long-lasting enemy slows, you get temporary enemy freezes, you get durations of every single type of buff under the sun in Warframe.

And because of that you get the entire gamut of casting management types for buffs and debuffs from the simple fire-and-forget all the way through to the active and maintained by action type.

None of these are a bad thing to have in Warframe. Not a single one.

Getting rid of just one type of defense ability won't make the game more challenging. The issue of Challenge in Warframe is deeper than that.

Try to make the game more challenging by actually introducing challenges to our functions, not by nerfing our functions to match a sub-par level of challenge.

I got it thanks

Thank you for not being weirdly agressive like some people here 

But i guess when i played squishy players in the orb vallis 

I was suprised with how fun the game's become because i was really fighting for my life 

Like volt and garuda...and banshee

@Peter

I understand that some people may like a slow game 

But i guess people really hate to die

[Peter]

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Getting rid of just one type of defense ability won't make the game more challenging. The issue of Challenge in Warframe is deeper than that.

Try to make the game more challenging by actually introducing challenges to our functions, not by nerfing our functions to match a sub-par level of challenge.

This,

The problems aren't in the warframes, is saryn strong? but only shines on ESO, is Volt strong? but only works on specific missions with many mobs together.

Are Nezha, Gara, Rhino, aka Adaptation Strong? I still keep taking hitkill, they are fun mechanics but they are not miraculous, no matter if the enemies are very tough or do excessive damage, this will not turn Warframe into a Destiny 2 on the difficulty side.

And honestly, Warframe is good enough and has its good and bad characteristics just like any other game, the focus of Warframe is not the difficulty, there are games for it and everyone is free to play whatever they want. Asking for the whole game to change because he is bored ignoring the other 99.9% opinions is ridiculous to say the least.

No more, I love Warframe just the way it is, for those who want a challenge, stop wasting your time and look for another game, but don't be ridiculous.

[Chicken-Biryani]

And this is how dictatorship starts! You play the way you want, I will play the way I want.

Edited August 23, 2019 by --C--Nehra

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

49 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

And this is how dictatorship starts! You play the way you want, I will play the way I want.

People keep saying this to me over and over again

I made this post after seeing and gathering so many opinions and posts about how stale the game has become....and how overpowered we are 

I also thought about what kinds of changes we can do to spice  the game a little bit while marinating the OPness that we have

 

I realized that when i played warframes that have no direct simple and easy access 90% dr abilities the game was progressively harder, as it should

But of course people don't like nerfs i thought about that

So i thought maybe...when you have a warframe that can take so many hits and wipe hordes in 0.5 seconds it's really unfair for others, and unfair for the experience 

 

I thought about the exchange....sacrificing your cover and your defenses for dealing damage and vice versa 

And that would only work on DR warframes

And i also know that this cannot apply to Warframes that have limited defenses like volt's shield or hildryn's shields...and won't work with all support and tank warframes

It would only work for extremely high dps warframes like the likes of mesa

So you telling me that i want the game to play like the way i want when i quite literally thought about every kind of player outhere...the ones that don't like nerf and that ones that are burn out

I guess if you and others here actually took time to re read the post and understand my point of view...i wouldn't have had so many waving their pitch forks at me 

Edited August 23, 2019 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk