"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[Miyabi-sama]

3 минуты назад, DeMonkey сказал:

Nice, very tactful.

I take it you have no actual response then?

Actual response to what? Attempt to start a rant or discussion of linguology and rhetorics subjects?

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Actual response to what? Attempt to start a rant or discussion of linguology and rhetorics subjects?

I'll take that as a no then, I expected nothing less.

FYI, if you're going to claim my post is bait, then do you consider yourself to be an incredibly blind fish? Because, despite claiming it's bait, here you are responding.

[Miyabi-sama]

2 минуты назад, DeMonkey сказал:

I'll take that as a no then, I expected nothing less.

FYI, if you're going to claim my post is bait, then do you consider yourself to be an incredibly blind fish? Because, despite claiming it's bait, here you are responding.

Nice demagogy. Might work in your college's club debates.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-10-01 at 2:48 PM, Miyabi-sama said:

Nice demagogy. Might work in your college's club debates.

I don't think you understand what "demagogy" actually means. DeMonkey is not appealing to the masses here, much less for any personal gain, they're simply pointing out how badly you owned yourself.

On 2019-10-01 at 2:29 PM, Miyabi-sama said:

Is that a bait? Pffft. Try better.
Or simply get out, if you can't say anything on topic.

Well no, they pointed out that your own posts were themselves off-topic, as you have been pointedly trying to derail discussion at hand by misrepresenting it as this baseless attack against the personal character of DE, itself a corporate entity that is incapable of emotion. 

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Don't start about distorting truth et cetera, I am commenting what you said, not what I am imagining. You had your fair share of distortion, let me have some.

As DeMonkey pointed out as well, you are in fact commenting on what you are imagining, not what I have said. You are thus trying to deceive either us, or yourself.

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At this point I missed the fact threads were merged, my apologies.

Could you not just edit what little you'd posted?

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Uh... No they're not. Yet.

Uh, yes they do, "virtually" is different from "literally", and I specifically chose the word because UMs have been special-cased to not work in Conclave, as we are presently discussing, even though they work everywhere else.

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Yes, it explains the issue. No, you wrong, syndicates are not the same in terms of gameplay section, this is a misconception, growing up from generalization.
Conclave has secluded gameplay section with its own balance and rules. People fail to acknowledge the fact, or just simply ignoring, creating inconsistent comparison. Sure why taking in mind there's players fighting each other outside of standart missions, when all that matters is rewards?

You are simply restating yourself, without adding anything new. K-Drive racing also runs on its own special gameplay, balance and rules, as does scanning, yet both associated syndicates take in UMs. Similarly, content for the Quills and Vox Solaris is exclusive to those syndicates, and features a greater diversity of different rules and gameplay than Conclave. Thus, your point has been already refuted, many times over.

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This game's PvP gameplay section has:
- Different balance.

From what? Do you really think K-Drives operate on the same standards of balance as "regular" gameplay?

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- Different rewards.

Because clearly no syndicate offers unique rewards... /s

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- Different matchmaking.

Eidolon hunts run on their own matchmaking as well, to say nothing of how differently players organise themselves for tridolon runs.

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- Different goals from main gameplay.

Such as?

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- Its own community (Yes, some people come in warframe for just its PvP)

Yes, its own community of about ten players, half of which spend more time posting on the forums than actually playing. Meanwhile, there is a far larger community of people who dedicate themselves to Eidolon hunts, as can be seen in Recruiting chat.

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- Does not intercrosses with main gameplay section.

Which "main gameplay"? Neither do the Quills or Vox Solaris; they require their own missions, meanwhile Index and Rathuum do in fact use Conclave maps.

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- Different META.

Virtually every game mode has its own localized metagame, to say nothing of Tridolon hunts, Profit-Taker, and Exploiter, each of which favors different setups. Conclave is not nearly as special as you think it is, or want it to be.

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That's a solid meaningful niche, ignoring all these facts doesn't make your argument valid.

But nobody has ignored these facts, what you are ignoring is how all of the bulletpoints you just made were already made before you, and answered thoroughly. As per usual, you continue to not do your research.

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Honestly, you just ignore a huge portion of distinctive features, creating false generalizations all along the road.

Where?

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Which by your premise DE have tried to get rid of.

Yes, by making the grind easier. Moreover, the grind I criticized was one with no alternative, whereas the grind here is being introduced as an alternative to another grind: I am therefore not suggesting to impose this grind upon players wanting to progress through Conclave, so much as offer them the same alternative means as anyone else wanting to go through a syndicate. If the grind is too grindy, then we ought to receive more Universal Medallions; problem solved.

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In fact majority of newbies struggling with Thumpers, Orbs and even Demolishers, thus said they are required to either grind for more power, or resort to help from so called "veterans", who can already have abundancy of those resources. Following this line, adding massive resource drops from certain kinds of end-game enemies only benefit those who already far in progression to the point where they can handle those enemies by themselves.

You seem to be missing the fact that all of these merely add options to make the grind easier: nobody is taking away your previous options, so if you can't do Thumpers, you can just fish or mine. It's not newer players who are going to be concerned with fully committing to the grind anyway; at that stage they still need to progress through the Star Chart. You are therefore attempting to invent problems that do not exist.

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I suppose this conclusion proves wrong about changes not benefitting veterans and benefitting newbies.

Uh, no it doesn't, because I specifically referred to veterans who had already completed the grind, versus players who are new to that grind they are about to start. You are twisting my words out of context here, and so in visibly bad faith.

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And veterans could already help newbies before with baits and lures without an addition of massive resource drops, as I did on Vallis with fishing orokin drones in public.

And this is relevant to the discussion... how?

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So if that does not solved with addition of UMs in Cc, why bother to add it for sake of those players?

Because UMs are not for Conclave players who have already gotten all the rewards, nor are they intended to change Conclave, simple as that. The game does not revolve around you, nor does it need to, so the addition of a new feature does not need to be justified solely by its personal value towards yourself.

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Same goes for non-Conclave players which you forgot to mention here.

Sure, but in the specific case of DE obstinately refusing to concede a point on which they are obviously wrong, it has never worked out well for the developer, and they've eventually had to give ground. Look at how adamant DE were about Vacuum remaining a Carrier-only mod, and now how it and its pet equivalent are available on every companion.

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It is a grudge on other community members igniting drama, S#&$talking and bashing developers for sake of damn skins.

Which, clearly, you are taking out on people who are doing none of those things, yet still seem to think your self-righteous rage entitles you to behave terribly on the forums.

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I am ultimately trying to defend status quo of Conclave and its rewards from such a pleasant community members who have no decency to just ignore the secluded PvP gameplay section.

If you want to defend Conclave, then support Universal Medallions: players who hate the mode would never need to touch it, and could just go through the syndicate without ever needing to actually play Conclave, the latter of which inevitably causes them to complain on the forums when they do so. Again, you are talking out of a misplaced sense of entitlement and gatekeeping, a sentiment that the thread mine has been merged into denounces at length.

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Our opinions are not aligned in any way. The resulting changes have nothing to do with opinion alignment. You wanna give the players alternative, majority of Cc community wants this f@#$in drama end...

You literally just stated that you had no qualms with UMs allowing progress through Conclave, and that the Conclave community for the most part seems to have no issue with it either. The fact that you chose to antagonize me along the way does not contradict the fact that we both have no opposition to reinstating UM functionality for Conclave, and seem to agree that it also seems to be the more sensible thing to do.

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... I want it to continue.

... why?

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

My clan has the hema researched rather quick when it came out, but that's cause we're on console and a small clan. So i advise everyone to farm to donate a certain each person and we got it done but to a new/unprepared clan the hema is that long term grind that exist for no reason. Is it suppose to be a resource sink for mutagen samples? Then why is there no similar items for the corpus and grineer labs? Feels like the hema cost was terrible mistake and everyone is ok with the cost being lowered but DE is using imaginary reasons to prevent a cost reduction. I'm perfectly fine that people get an a easier time to access an okay weapon, it doesn't affect me. 

I reached max conclave rank without putting a shotgun in my mouth and pulling the trigger and i never want to go there again i don't want anyone to experience that level of suffering. The UM does not affect the (5) people who play conclave cause all that people want are just the skins at the end. And last i check those skin are just cosmetic, they don't give any advantage what so ever besides fabulousness, so why are the (4) people that play conclave so threatened by this? Is playing conclave their only source of identity? And people having these pure cosmetic items is threat to their existence? Those opposed to the UM always have the worst arguements against it.

1. Honor the grind

Doesn't happen anywhere else in the game, hello karak wraith in the invasions even though it was only available through tubemen of regor event from like 3 years ago. Warframe is about letting everyone get a chance at old stuff, the only thing i haven't seen returned are just sigils and emblems

2. Pvp should stay separated from pve

Then why is conclave here? Why does it use the textures, game mechanics, warframes, and  weapons from the pve show up in the pvp then? That statement is never going to hold water. If you truly stay by pvp and pve shouldn't mix then conclave needs to stripped of anything warframe and be a sperate game.

3. There's discord for conclave

If it exist then it really doesn't matter then since it still takes possibly an hour or 2 to find anyone playing conclave and going against 1 person build rep at snails paced that it you should just not even bother. It just falls under the conclave defenders strawman attempts at their player count that they keep pretending is their.

4. The UM grind

I wonder if conclave defenders know the farming method and properties if the UM, cause i think they don't. A 5% drop for only a 1000 rep and the items people want from conclave are around 20k to 50k so 20 to 50 UM to get thise on top of needing UM to rank up the conclave syndicate. That's a hell of a grind and anyone whis goes from r0 to max of conclave for the skins deserve it for the amount of effort that would take.

So conclusion hema research being lowered doesn't harm anyone, and i don't want people to consider a noose after 3 hours of trying to find a match of conclave.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

2. Pvp should stay separated from pve

Then why is conclave here? Why does it use the textures, game mechanics, warframes, and  weapons from the pve show up in the pvp then? That statement is never going to hold water. If you truly stay by pvp and pve shouldn't mix then conclave needs to stripped of anything warframe and be a sperate game.

While I get what you're going for, I do feel PvP is a special-case exception in most situations. Where I would criticise aspects like artificial scarcity, exclusivity and bragging rights anywhere else in the game, they tend to be part-and-parcel with the core experience when it comes to PvP. I'm not a competitive person myself, but I do recognise the need for competition in a PvP game, the need to "prove" you "deserve" your status. Maybe there's something I fundamentally misunderstand about the core mentality, obviously, but I feel PvP works best when there are no shortcuts or workarounds.

With all of that said, however - I don't believe in exclusive rewards for PvP in PvE-focused games, unless said rewards are entirely restricted TO PvP. The issue with Universal Medallions to my mind wasn't that it granted PvP progression. The kind of people hoping to use those in the Conclave don't strike me as the sort to care for PvP ranking and progression. What people wanted were the unique cosmetics, and I strongly believe that those should be available through means OTHER than PvP progression, or the artificial circumvention thereof.

Using Universal Medallions in the Conclave is a bad call. It undermines the competitive spirit for people who care about that sort of thing, it's a MASSIVE STUPID GRIND for people who don't care about that sort of thing and it's an excessively disproportionate solution to an almost entirely unrelated problem. Using Universal Medallions as a means of getting Conclave cosmetics is like hammering nails with your iPhone. You CAN, but there are better ways to go about it. The "better ways" in this metaphor would translate to attaching these cosmetics to some PvE activity IN ADDITION to distributing them through the Conclave. There can always be other status symbol rewards that Conclave progression could offer instead.

[0_The_F00l]

I personally don't mind the costs being lowered. 

My clan was once a moon clan, we saw the cost needed and our own clan philosophy (not forcing players to contribute) and realised we won't be able to do it for a very long time. 

A decision was made to downsize (after a lot of internal discussions) , to this day we call it the great Hema gate. 

We had to let go of a lot of old inactive players, we have not upsized after that yet, we have become a lot more closed in when accepting new members as well. 

It was a hard decision and we made it. 

I would personally want the Hema cost to be lowered even though we already have it researched. 

Conclave is dead in the water and definitely needs something, but the p2p architecture, terrible difference from main game and lack of control of difficulty makes it rather difficult. 

 

As for the "DE prefers to cater to the entitled vets"

I think you are incorrect, DE listens to only itself and the times it makes changes is when it bleeds into the "scummy waters" of benefiting only those that pay real money. 

I would personally think they cater more to new players considering they make everything accessible to them (but without the necessary tools to overcome it). 

Edited October 4, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2019-10-03 at 10:53 AM, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

2. Pvp should stay separated from pve

Then why is conclave here? Why does it use the textures, game mechanics, warframes, and  weapons from the pve show up in the pvp then? That statement is never going to hold water. If you truly stay by pvp and pve shouldn't mix then conclave needs to stripped of anything warframe and be a sperate game.

As a note, because this topic is getting reeeeeeally far off itself with Miyabi's constant derailing arguments, I'd say that the opinion that PvP and PvE should be separate is mostly born out of the fact that, for almost all intents and purposes so far, they have been.

You can take on Conclave and rank up in it completely seperately from the main game, the rewards from Conclave are almost exclusively Conclave related (cosmetics can be used anywhere), and almost nothing from PvE can be actually taken over into Conclave because every weapon, every ability and every Warframe is balanced separately for the two functions.

So the perception that these are two completely separated functions of the game is actually pretty well warranted.

That's also why this whole debate over the Universal Medallion sprang up in the first place. Because there never has been a way to actually rank up PvP from outside of it before, anyone wanting the cosmetics or PvP exclusive mods that give actual power in that mode for when they do decide to play, have had to earn them by actually playing the game mode. Likewise people playing PvP cannot earn most of the rewards that would affect PvE without playing PvE.

If, and I say this with the more positive supposition, there had been an interweaving of the modes since the idea was introduced, for example putting a Conclave based node on each planet so that players would participate in them and earn rewards in them like regular missions, but the drops were still separated in terms of the mods and cosmetics, and you progressed each type simultaneously to your game progress? Then I don't think anyone in the game would object to any kind of Universal Medallion that affected Conclave standing.

In the same way that when you progress to a certain MR, suddenly the Conclave nodes become unlocked, maybe they would overlay existing PvE nodes the same way that the other Syndicate missions overlay them now. And the Solar Rails then introduced progress checkpoints like 'claim X amount of Oro in Conclave' could and would be introduced to direct players that way.

Now, a lot of players that don't play Conclave deliberately would say that they don't want this, that it's forcing them to play a game mode they don't like... but I don't like Interception, and I have to play that. I don't like Operative Defense, but I have to play that. I don't like the Hallowe'en event, but if I want the rewards from it, I have to play that. The game is full of times when we have to play a mode we don't like in order to progress overall, and that's not a bad thing. It gives players that like it more options, and the players that don't like it still have to be good at it in order to get on with the things they want to achieve, making the modes better to play overall.

And if it was as rewarding for those players as any other, for example the mission would give standard resources and rewards for that planet, while the mods dropped were Conclave specific, and if there were more things available in both PvE and PvP that allowed the player to scale both modes together... Like the way you can grab Archwing mods out on the Open Landscapes, that kind of function... it might have been a mode that DE could have seen grow and be supported more and more, even putting more events into it to earn universal rewards.

But it's the implementation of making these modes so very separate that's caused all of this discussion.

I see this, actually, as no different to the way they handled Archwing previously. A completely new mode where, instead of programming it into the base game, they tried to make it a completely separate game bolted onto this game using the assets to bridge the gap. But when players then said 'great, but your adverts and all your hype showed us using this in the main game too', they kind of stumbled. They had to experiment with it as Sharkwing first, then the transition gates into Space for The Second Dream, and then finally getting more into the process with the 'sky' archwing of the Plains. It will take way more work to actually fully integrate Archwing, and I'm hoping they're doing just that with Empyrean.

And they probably needed to do that with Conclave too.

As for the grind for things like the Hema... similar problem. They put this research object in, believing that they were catering to a bunch of Veteran players who would appreciate this weapon that was at the higher end, but because they had such a ridiculous store of resources that were hardly used for anything else in the game... they were wrong. They thought that all of us long-standing players would just hurl our massive mountains of resources at it and finish that off quickly. Except most of those players, with all those resources, aren't all that active anymore. Only a few were even there for the process. So what they had instead was every other clan that didn't have ten or so vets with 500 materials each to throw in for the very lowest, or 5000 for the higher clans, was all of these mid-tier clans that had no way of farming enough of this stuff, and even the most efficient way of getting them earned it so slowly that there wasn't even a chance of completing this research for months.

If they'd integrated the farming for this resource better, ahead of time, so that people were visiting the Derelicts regularly for some even or some new mods? Then this would have been absolutely expected. 'Oh, you've all gone to the Derelicts for a week and got hundreds of resources of this one useless type? Great! Here's a gun that costs hundreds of this exact resource.'

Implementation is always the problem with the way DE handles these new grinds.

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

OP here again. Seems like this thread has got quite a bit of traction since the last time, and I appreciate it very much. It did face some derailment as @Birdframe_Prime mentioned earlier, so it's time for a refocus.

In relation to the Hema Dilemma, the main issue I'm talking about here is not the initial Mutagen Mass cost, but the reason DE decided to not lower the cost even after initial player feedback, and that reason being "Oh, some people have worked so hard to get it so we don't want to lower it." This shoddy reason can be a slippery slope, i.e "why fix anything if people have endured subpar conditions in the game?", which is not the case because the drop chance of some other resources have been changed since then.

On the subject of the UEC Medallions, some people here have brought up a very good point that the measly 1000 standing medallions at 5% drop chance are quite a stretch for unlocking Conclave items with a 20k or 50k standing tag. If that's the case, allowing UEC medallions to be used for Conclave redemptions can actually supplement a player's standing accumulation, instead of being a restriction. While it may or may not be an incentive to play the game mode, it can ease the burden of people who are actually playing the game mode(even a little bit) instead becoming a wall that wasn't there in the first place. It's surprising to me that DE didn't look at it this way, because they have all the data and number crunching at their disposal to figure out that these medallions can supplement ranking up in the Conclave instead of completely replacing regular matches.

TLDR the focus of this thread is the reason for those development decisions, not the decisions themselves. Cheers.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Hammerhead_FireCaste

[Klokwerkaos]

I take each person whining about something on a case by case basis.

some items are really tough to get, and I've advocated for them to be made easier, and in some cases it happened.  many things have been made much easier that shouldn't have been because people cry endlessly.

it all depends on what thing you're bringing up in specific.

the old tower white farm was the worst farm in the game and is now super easy.  probably too easy, but whatever, it"s a color for your dojo.

the hema... it"s meh, could be easier but it's not terrible.  medallions, I wouldn't target farm them because it's an ass farm and I don't explicitly need them for anything.

aura formas used to be a pita and now they are easy af since you can just buy them outright, but this is really something that should have always been able to be purchased.

the wisp farm (plains, not jupiter) used to be obnoxious, but now you can just get them like candy by running eidolons which are already rewarding.

ultimately it all depends on the question.

frankly I think that you believe 1% of people are gatekeeping pointlessly is probably not as accurate as you think.  most vets don't care because they already got the thing and recognize there is so much to farm now that it shouldn't be as hard if people are ever going to be able to catch up, and rather, the question is more "how much easier should it be/not".

even a ton of founders I know don't give a flying f if they rerelease excal prime because it's not really a prestige thing... prestige for an item wears off after a year at max, especially with how much crap there is in the game now, which is why I've been advocating for a policy for a while that all exclusives remain so for only 1 year at max, and then they become reasonably farmable through either barro, simaris, or some other thing.  classic example for this is  the ignis wraith which was just not obtainable for the longest time, and now that it is, it's stupidly over priced from barro and the research gap is just annoying, same for solar rails.







 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

The primary argument against fixing the "painful fun killing grind".... Ahem.

"You darned kids get off my lawn with your rap music and your pants too low and your skateboards! get a joooob you whipper snappers!!"

Simple fear of change. They'd rather things stay as they are, even if the majority of people want things to change. It is why DE, or Bungie, or Bioware, refuse to just put out regular polls that invite players to fill out the ballot and make the changes that the vast majority of actual players want.  Because that would mean having to listen to their players, not to the hand full of people they'd rather pretend represent the majority of players. 

They could put out a ballot. "Have a non pvp method for ranking up conclave? Y/N", "Get rid of self damage while creating a special mod that will allow players to cause self damage if they desired (such as for Chroma)", "Add an in game vending store or auction house? Y/N"  "Reduce investment cost of high expense blue prints, such as for unlocking hema in dojos, Y/N?" etc etc etc.... The problem is they know the answers they'd get. They know, already, that the people they mostly listen to are not the majority or even meaningful minority. Which is stupid because over all listening to the tryhard elitists who want to try and wall things off from "the pleebs" has cost DE more money than the people who they are trying to appease bring them. They won't hold a ballot to see what people really think on divisive issues where tryhards are pushing back against everyone else because they already know the tryhards are not going to be the ones who would come out on top. On most issues they'd manage to pull in maybe 5% against. 

[Miyabi-sama]

16 минут назад, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx сказал:

The primary argument against fixing the "painful fun killing grind".... Ahem.

"You darned kids get off my lawn with your rap music and your pants too low and your skateboards! get a joooob you whipper snappers!!"

Simple fear of change. They'd rather things stay as they are, even if the majority of people want things to change. It is why DE, or Bungie, or Bioware, refuse to just put out regular polls that invite players to fill out the ballot and make the changes that the vast majority of actual players want.  Because that would mean having to listen to their players, not to the hand full of people they'd rather pretend represent the majority of players. 

They could put out a ballot. "Have a non pvp method for ranking up conclave? Y/N", "Get rid of self damage while creating a special mod that will allow players to cause self damage if they desired (such as for Chroma)", "Add an in game vending store or auction house? Y/N"  "Reduce investment cost of high expense blue prints, such as for unlocking hema in dojos, Y/N?" etc etc etc.... The problem is they know the answers they'd get. They know, already, that the people they mostly listen to are not the majority or even meaningful minority. Which is stupid because over all listening to the tryhard elitists who want to try and wall things off from "the pleebs" has cost DE more money than the people who they are trying to appease bring them. They won't hold a ballot to see what people really think on divisive issues where tryhards are pushing back against everyone else because they already know the tryhards are not going to be the ones who would come out on top. On most issues they'd manage to pull in maybe 5% against. 

Viva la revolucion!!!

[Steel_Rook]

On 2019-10-04 at 3:08 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now, a lot of players that don't play Conclave deliberately would say that they don't want this, that it's forcing them to play a game mode they don't like... but I don't like Interception, and I have to play that. I don't like Operative Defense, but I have to play that. I don't like the Hallowe'en event, but if I want the rewards from it, I have to play that. The game is full of times when we have to play a mode we don't like in order to progress overall, and that's not a bad thing. It gives players that like it more options, and the players that don't like it still have to be good at it in order to get on with the things they want to achieve, making the modes better to play overall.

PvP is a special-case exception in this case, so it really doesn't work in this equivalence. All of the content you've mentioned disliking falls under the umbrella of PvE and so is distinctly different from anything to do with PvP. While I'm personally fine with a broad spread of PvE content even if it means pushing people into game modes they don't like, but I don't accept and will not be convinced to include PvP in there, as well. Including PvP in the core PvE progression system or forcing it into the same world-state is a deal-breaker for me, which would personally make me avoid a game entirely or stop playing if it were introduced mid-way through. Any game mode or system which forces you to directly compete with other people using the game's core systems should be segregated into its own independent section where it can only be seen and participated in by people who deliberately go there looking for it. This holds for any game which holds PvE as its primary focus - which Warframe does. I find anything more visible than that to be unacceptable.

I started playing Destiny 2 recently because... It's free. One of my instant annoyances was the so-called "Main Quest" immediately sending me into the Crucible - that game's version of the Conclave. The quest won't continue until I've played some PvP. The Division did the same thing as well, forcing me to complete a match of PvP so my NPC contacts would shut up about that #*!%ing mission. Know what I did? I jumped into a match, caught bullets with my teeth for 15 minutes, lost to people with better gear and left, never to return. Chances are I'll do the same with Destiny, and hope the game stops bringing it up. Putting Conclave nodes on planets in Warframe would be FAR more egregious than that, however.

 

5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

even a ton of founders I know don't give a flying f if they rerelease excal prime because it's not really a prestige thing... prestige for an item wears off after a year at max, especially with how much crap there is in the game now, which is why I've been advocating for a policy for a while that all exclusives remain so for only 1 year at max, and then they become reasonably farmable through either barro, simaris, or some other thing.  classic example for this is  the ignis wraith which was just not obtainable for the longest time, and now that it is, it's stupidly over priced from barro and the research gap is just annoying, same for solar rails.

Couple of points here. First of all, I completely agree. Artificial exclusivity is one of the worst monetisation practices in the gaming industry right now - I'd argue worse than lootboxes, even. At best it wastes content on a small subset of players in return for a cash infusion. At worst it's a con, cheating people into thinking that worth exists in an item which has none. As a bonus, it breeds a really poisonous mentality, ascribing worth to an item which has no value merely on the measure of how many people DON'T have it. I call this "poisonous," because it manifests as a desire to prevent other people from having what you have. Call me Communist if you want, but I care only and solely about what I have. As long as I have a thing, I'm perfectly fine with everyone else also having it and I'm fine with everyone else getting it easier than I did. I farmed Tower White off "Condrocks, but only on the ground." I farmed Juggernauts and I picked plants. I've no issue with that utter garbage being made less S#&$ to progress through.

The other point, however, is a bit of a disagreement. Over the years, I've come to believe that "Prestige Items" can exist and hold lasting worth... As long as they hold no intrinsic value BUT for their function as a status symbol. Ironically, it's the garbage gatcha monetisation of modern video games which gave me that idea, as the items I'd personally use for status are things like sigils, banners, name colours and such - the regalia surrounding how your "account" is presented to the world. Titanfall 2 is the one I can think of off the top of my head, and that had a banner for your name, an effect on that banner and a little badge next to it, which popped up for people you killed. Warframe already a similar system with sigils, and I have no issue with the game selling one-time-only prestige sigils for founders or those who were active at a specific point. The equivalent to "I killed Alad V and all I got was this lousy shirt." The main determining factor for what would constitute a "prestige item" is such an item which nobody would want BUT for the prestige it represents - an item worthless on its own merits.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

All of the content you've mentioned disliking falls under the umbrella of PvE and so is distinctly different from anything to do with PvP.

That's actually not the point, and you know it. Game modes not being liked is more than just 'PvE' and 'PvP', the game is full of content that people like and that people dislike. My point is that not liking the content isn't a reason for DE not to put in actual rewards and integrate it into the game better so that playing both is not only viable, it's preferable and will improve all of the content overall by not being separate anymore.

Further to that, if you want to talk about changes being implemented 'mid-way through' then I would expect you to account for the fact that your mid-way is not everyone's mid-way. You're smarter than that, Rook.

Melee 3.0 is being introduced after I'm done with all the existing content. Your account says you joined in 2018, the Plains of Eidolon were introduced then as new for you, but that's a little after mid-way for me. The Operators were introduced mid-way for me, everything that's been introduced since 2014 is mid-way or late for me.

This game changes. It does and always will. New functions will be introduced, old ones will be reworked, removed or re-introduced in a new format.

You started playing Destiny 2 because it's free, but that's after years of people paying large amounts of money for the game and it's expansions, your free-to-play Destiny 2 is introduced mid-way for all of those players and they may resent you as equally as you would resent Conclave being put into the star chart for Warframe. That doesn't make Destiny 2 going free-to-play a bad thing.

If DE integrate the game mode fully, it would mean that thousands of players newer than you have a reason for them, a function that enables them, a set of rewards to encourage them, to play Conclave and they will never have experienced the game without it. And they will, in fact, do better because of it. They may even enjoy the game more because of it.

Your resentment of the change is not enough reason to not improve the game overall.

Your resentment of PvP in a game is not enough reason to prevent implementing it more in Warframe, because while Destiny makes the mistake of saying 'the Crucible is love, the Crucible is life, play it or you cannot progress at all'... Warframe needs to put PvP in as 'This is just another game mode. It has different rules than the co-op, but it's not separate, it's just another part of the star chart, you play it the same way we make you play Interception or Salvage, because if you want the rewards you play the mode'.

The separation of PvE and PvP in Warframe is a detriment to the game overall, it creates a situation where the dislike of PvP in the few, increased by the indifference of the middle, can fuel inaction by the Developers and thus hinder the progress of the overall player base that could be entertained or could benefit from more variety. And that's not how developing Warframe should work.

6 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

TLDR the focus of this thread is the reason for those development decisions, not the decisions themselves. Cheers.

So how about those ideas then?

If the grind for PvP and PvE is so separate now, what if we integrated them? What if Conclave was part of the Star Chart and was something you scaled up and gained Standing for with regular play just like the other Syndicates, where wearing the sigils gave you Standing based on your earnings daily just like the Syndicates. Your rewards from Teshin didn't change, the drops within Conclave didn't change, but the end-of-round rewards, the drop tables for winning or completing the matches, were all related to both parts of the game.

A node on each planet that you would complete, similar to the way there's an archwing node on each for the different modes of play. Some of the different Solar Rails might require you to have completed a challenge in that PvP mode before they unlock, and there are even cross-mode options like 'this type of enemy in PvE drops these mods for Conclave, while some of the rare PvE mods only drop in Conclave'. Just like Archwing mods drop in the Plains so you can get content for that in PvE, have certain melee trash mobs or certain Elite units drop specifically Conclave mods so that you can have them ready for the next time you have to do it.

Then? What if playing Conclave was also a good Affinity gain function so you can level up weapons and frames just as fast playing Conclave as you can playing the highest difficulty game modes on each planet? So if you're playing Conclave at Typhoon level over on Sedna, Eris, the Void or Lua, these have Affinity gains per round equivalent to those of the Dark Sectors, with similar boosts (like 18% extra for Rifles or Bows) to encourage play there. Make Conclave a fully viable alternative to ensuring you can level up your gear there and suddenly more people will be joining and using obscure weapons to level them. Sure people will still just go to Hydron, but that's boring over time, and being able to see how gear pans out against properly challenging targets (people) is actually a bit of an incentive.

If everyone can level Conclave up with PvE, and everyone can level up PvE with Conclave... Then it isn't a separate mode anymore, it's part of the game, it's something we can now use for a purpose instead of participate in for 'fun' and rewards.

For grind-walls like the Hema, should there be some node in the Derelict, or some enemy, that actually drops the resources in abundance? Maybe when these new 'leaping thrasher' enemies are fully integrated they drop multiples of the resource in question?

If DE's decision to not lower the cost is based purely on the fact that so many have already paid it... why not just bypass that by having that resource have a grinding location that's reliable and fast enough that people can actually get that many resources quickly. And then release more weapons with a high cost of that resource to balance out the new speed across multiple grinds.

Literally set the new standard for how many Mutagen Samples are available based on the rather outlandish cost of the Hema, and put more content in that matches it so that we aren't farming huge amounts of Mutagen Samples for nothing else but the Hema.

Encourage the mass farming by making mass farming more available, and then rewarding players for further mass farming with more content.

Solution, at least, and a way forward at best.

[Steel_Rook]

35 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Your resentment of PvP in a game is not enough reason to prevent implementing it more in Warframe, because while Destiny makes the mistake of saying 'the Crucible is love, the Crucible is life, play it or you cannot progress at all'... Warframe needs to put PvP in as 'This is just another game mode. It has different rules than the co-op, but it's not separate, it's just another part of the star chart, you play it the same way we make you play Interception or Salvage, because if you want the rewards you play the mode'.

Look, if you want to make this a "my preference vs. your preference" argument, then you lose by default because this is dead-end street. My opinion on the matter is the only one I have. If you're not interested in respecting that then you may as well put me on ignore because I have no other opinion to offer you. I'm not interested in playing PvP in Warframe, I'm not interested in being forced to play PvP in Warframe, I'm not interested in being coerced into playing PvP in Warframe. Giving me a "that's, like, your opinion, man" argument is unlikely to change that and indeed accomplishes nothing. In fact, if you keep insisting on this path of argumentum ad hominem, then I'm simply not going to respond.
 

38 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The separation of PvE and PvP in Warframe is a detriment to the game overall, it creates a situation where the dislike of PvP in the few, increased by the indifference of the middle, can fuel inaction by the Developers and thus hinder the progress of the overall player base that could be entertained or could benefit from more variety. And that's not how developing Warframe should work.

^{[citation needed]}. All I see here is an assertion that PvP will in some way enhance Warframe with the only supporting evidence provided is an assertion that a large number of people exist who would play PvP but my actions are in some way preventing them from doing so. I've seen enough PvE-focused MMOs implement PvP long after release, and the pattern I've seen of it here is absolutely consistent with the rest of them. PvP ends up not being popular, and so ends up being underdeveloped. I see no compelling evidence to suggest that a substantially larger number of people who don't play PvP now would play PvP if it were stuck on the Star Chart for the simple reason that the "try it, you might like it" argument simply never works. Not on a large scale. You might convince an individual person to enjoy an individual activity, but people by and large know what they like an what they dislike.

I've no issue with you liking PvP, I've no issue with you asking for improvements in PvP, I've no issue with you trying to get more people in PvP. I DO have issue with locking more of the game's content exclusively behind it, however. Doubly so when you then give me angry posts about how I'm wrong to feel that way. Personally, I view the act of locking desirable rewards behind a gameplay mode which by all accounts is extremely unpopular is not good for the game. It's holding rewards hostage in order to force people to play something they don't enjoy.

---

I see no reason to address the "mid-way" argument because it was a meaningless descriptor I threw in there for the sake of completeness. If it bothers you, feel free to disregard it entirely. It's utterly irrelevant to most of what I have to say. My opinion on PvP does not change based on when it was added. I will want it entirely segregated from PvE regardless of whether it was in the game at launch or added 10 years in, and I'm not open to being browbeaten about it.

[Velothed]

I'd like to chime in again concerning PvP in warframe. To make one thing clear from the start, I have no problem with Conclave having exclusive cosmetics or even easyer acces to some resources (like getting endo 10% faster than a comparable pve farm) as long as I'm not forced into it and it's not too much in your face.

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I started playing Destiny 2 recently

 

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

One of my instant annoyances was the so-called "Main Quest" immediately sending me into the Crucible - that game's version of the Conclave. The quest won't continue until I've played some PvP.

 

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Putting Conclave nodes on planets in Warframe would be FAR more egregious than that, however.

I had pretty much the same experience, I really like the combination of Cooperative gameplay and competitive in the same game. I'm trying to think of a good metaphor, so far the only thing I got is concerning this:

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

PvP is a special-case exception in this case, so it really doesn't work in this equivalence. All of the content you've mentioned disliking falls under the umbrella of PvE and so is distinctly different from anything to do with PvP.

Say for me PvE is [insert your sexual orientation here] sex and PvP is [insert another sexual orientation here] sex, now take Defection for example, a gamemode I absolutely dislike, in my metaphor, that would be sex with a person I'm not really attracted to, but still falls into my sexual orientation. That's not as much of a deal-breaker for me than going outside that orientation.

Concerning the Destiny 2 analogy, I recomend taking another look, I'm pretty sure you don't have to do the Crucible quest to continue the main quest (at least I haven't had to)

Easy fix for me would be the main quest introducing you to the PvP guys and from there having the option to get PvP quests from them.

Back to warframe, I'd have no problem with pvp nodes on planets, IF they are on the side, kinda like a relay and wouldn't count towards starchart completion.

I can't really describe it, as can be seen above with that horrible metaphor, but being forced to play PvP is not simply annoying, like being forced into mission types I hate, but actually fills me with dread, to the point that I'd rather play 1h of defection to get the same rewards I could get from 15min of Conclave.

[Steel_Rook]

3 minutes ago, Vethalon said:

Back to warframe, I'd have no problem with pvp nodes on planets, IF they are on the side, kinda like a relay and wouldn't count towards starchart completion.

My problem with that is Warframe's system for visualising progression. Nodes you've completed are a small white diamond, nodes you haven't completed are a large cyan diamond. At a glance on a planet, I can tell what I've completed and what I haven't. In order to make a planet appear "neat," I would have to run at least one PvP match on every node just to "tick" it. And make no mistake - that right there is the point. It's intended to annoy people JUUUST enough for them to say "#*!% it, whatever, let's just get it out of the way I guess..." (incidentally, a quote from a friend of mine regarding Lua Disruption) and hope that the experience leaves them asking for more. In my experience across MMOs and from speaking with other people, that almost never works. It didn't work in The Division, it didn't work in City of Heroes, it hasn't worked in any game I've tried. Even something as massive as World of Warcraft ended up downscaling its PvP ambitions over time.

The reason I propose that PvP be kept entirely separate and in no way affecting PvE is specifically TO shield PvP from these kinds of negative reactions. It's the same opinion I hold about forced team content or extreme difficulty content. Don't gate unique rewards behind them, because doing so forces a lot of unwilling players to "close their eyes and think of England" while they do content they dislike. Because players WILL do content they dislike, and grind it and farm it... And eventually burn themselves out on the whole game hard. Whenever you have exotic content like that, you ideally want to restrict it to participants who go to it specifically FOR the nature of that content. If people don't like to PvP, don't make them PvP. If people don't like to raid, don't make them Raid. And if you can't get enough people to make that game mode run, then that's an issue with the game mode, not the players.

And since we're on the subject of game modes we dislike - I'm not a fan of locking rewards behind one game mode on one node, either. Fortuna was an AWFUL example of content gating, and the Jovian Concord was even worse. Want any of the cool new toys? OK, then grind this one #*!%ing node that you probably don't even like over and over again until you don't want to play Warframe any more. Atlas Prime, by contrast, was handled a LOT better. The associated Relics DO drop from Disruption... But they also drop from a whole lot of other game modes. Don't like it? Great! Play Spy, play Survival, play Excavation even.

I have no issue with being INTRODUCED to PvP. I do have issues with integrating it into the core gameplay loop. I'm still heavily resentful of The Division for incorporating Dark Zone PvP into the game's weeklies. The only way I could get around that was log in during working hours hoping to not meet anybody else, then just let them kill me if I did. If you want PvP integration to that effect, then just make a PvP-focused game with PvE elements. At least then the content matches the basic premise. But having it both ways does not work.

[Birdframe_Prime]

51 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Look, if you want to make this a "my preference vs. your preference" argument, then you lose by default because this is dead-end street. My opinion on the matter is the only one I have.

Well, no, far from it. When the reply came up, though, it is you who expressed that this would cause you not to play the game because of your preferences, however, not actually examining the process on the merits of it overall, simply dismissing the idea based on your opinions.

So when the argument is 'here's a path forward that can actually improve the system', your response really wasn't based on anything besides your opinion to anyone reading it. In a discussion where the pre-requisite is that something has to change to improve the lot of both systems, because the current decisions have already been made and we can see that people are resentful of the outcome, you should, in fact, be ready to supply reasoned arguments about how to do that, even if they're at cross purposes to mine. I would welcome the debate actually.

As it stands, though, a reasoned argument isn't really covered by your response of 'don't like it, won't even try it'.

What I would find far more acceptable, if you were to supply it, is a discussion point such as 'rather than that, I think that X is a better way to implement PvP that makes it a meaningful, but still optional, part of the game, so that I don't ever have to play it, but it's actually valid for people that do.' That would get your point across about never enjoying it, never wanting it, but also be you addressing the debate.

58 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

All I see here is an assertion that PvP will in some way enhance Warframe with the only supporting evidence provided is an assertion that a large number of people exist who would play PvP but my actions are in some way preventing them from doing so.

Then you're not actually examining the point with the real debate in mind. The debate is not 'we want to force you to play PvP' and the point I raised is not 'you're stopping people from playing PvP'.

The debate is that PvP is a part of Warframe, DE have implemented it badly and caused a separation in the players. This has resulted in further bad decisions by DE because of those divisions between the people that, as the thread says, say 'it was hard for me, therefore it should be hard for thee', and the players more on your side of the fence that don't enjoy the game mode and want a way around it. Players that say 'just because it was hard for thee, does not mean things can't change and be better for me'. Or just people that want to be able to get the rewards without subjecting themselves to it (now, you haven't specifically stated that you're in favour of that, but other players that want this Universal Medallion to apply to Conclave as well certainly have previously).

And my point is not that you, personally, are stopping people from playing PvP, but more that because players like you refuse to engage in it, the mode is left in a poor and un-fulfilled state by the Devs because it's not generating enough interest.

And part of that is definitely due to the fact that DE have created the mode badly, I don't put it entirely down to you or players like you, the game mode isn't integrated and it doesn't have a rewarding setup for players that aren't otherwise enthusiastic. You have a personal bias against PvP, and while you are not in the absolute minority, I believe you're in the particular minority that wouldn't play it even if there were rewards and progression linked to the mode in a more meaningful way.

So the question to you is not an accusation. I'm not saying 'Your opinion is invalid and therefore my opinion is right' and I'm certainly not trying to force you into PvP against your will.

What I'm suggesting would do that, yes, what I've suggested is to ensure that PvP is a part of the main progression and actually include aspects of it in the gating that all players go through naturally on their progression. The same way they have to experience the Quests, the planetary fetch-quests that are the Relays, and so on, in order to get to each new progress function, I believe that PvP should be a part of that.

You don't believe that. Valid opinion.

Tell me what you would then do with PvP to fix the problems with it being part of Warframe. And no, removing it isn't on the table for discussion.

Also, as a side note, you did completely mis-construe my point about PvP improving the game; at no point is a game made lesser by having one of its modes of play revamped to be better and more meaningful to the players. If, and I know it's a big if, DE were to reconstruct PvP so that it enhanced player progression, gave more meaningful rewards to those that took part, and was something that players could take part in as a natural part of the game overall... that's not a bad thing. That's an improvement to Warframe, the game, overall.

Again, put your personal bias about the mode aside and see how it could be utilised, and that's when we have a real discussion on our hands.

[FrostDragoon]

5 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And my point is not that you, personally, are stopping people from playing PvP, but more that because players like you refuse to engage in it, the mode is left in a poor and un-fulfilled state by the Devs because it's not generating enough interest.

I don't have a major dog in this fight either way, but there are primarily two reasons people aren't interested:
1) Some people just don't like PvP. That seems to be the core idea behind everything Rook is saying.

2) PvP is very badly implemented in this game. Asserting that it's "part of the game" only has merit technically. By every realistic/reasonable measure it could not exist in the game and make almost no difference overall.

Trying to blame people who don't like the mode for not putting enough interest in the mode to make it worth dev time seems like a pretty pointless idea to me. Honestly, the only reason PvP seems to--and I say this with the most generous connotation possible--EXIST is that it was just a given for the type of game that WF is for it to include something of the sort. Firefall did something similar, but turns out most people didn't really like the PvP there either. Same with The Division (despite it trying to sell its stupid af Dark Zone as a major development point for that game).

Weird idea, I know, but it turns out that the vast majority of people who play "looter shooters" aren't really that into PvP. Probably for similar reasons that hardly any MMOs can seem to get it right.

[FrostDragoon]

13 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Tell me what you would then do with PvP to fix the problems with it being part of Warframe. And no, removing it isn't on the table for discussion.

Removal is the best option on the table, lol

[Steel_Rook]

7 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What I would find far more acceptable, if you were to supply it, is a discussion point such as 'rather than that, I think that X is a better way to implement PvP that makes it a meaningful, but still optional, part of the game, so that I don't ever have to play it, but it's actually valid for people that do.' That would get your point across about never enjoying it, never wanting it, but also be you addressing the debate.

See, the problem is that doing so would be disingenuous. I don't play PvP and don't have a full understanding of its complexities. For me to propose actual improvements to PvP would be ignorant, which is why I've skirted around doing so. Despite my tone, however, I don't have an issue with improving PvP in whatever way you see fit... With the caveat that it's retained as its own isolated part of the game not affecting PvE. I can only give you restrictions, rather than improvements because my interest in the matter begins and ends in being able to ignore the system in its entirety if I should so choose. Anything which fits within those restrictions, I'm implicitly not going to argue against.

The problem - at least as I saw it - was that you explicitly WANT PvP to be exposed to the PvE game and integrated into it, as a means of attracting potential new players to it, and that I will argue against. Realise that in this particular case, my opinion and preferences on the matter are all I have to offer. I BELIEVE Warframe is a PvP game with an optional PVP component. I BELIEVE that PvP should be separate and hidden. I BELIEVE that PvP should not offer any exclusive rewards beyond those which are entirely restricted to its own context. That doesn't make those beliefs true and you're free to disagree with them. My concern was that if you dismiss them outright, then I have very little else to offer to the discussion because a large part of the issue here does come down to personal opinion.

 

15 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What I'm suggesting would do that, yes, what I've suggested is to ensure that PvP is a part of the main progression and actually include aspects of it in the gating that all players go through naturally on their progression. The same way they have to experience the Quests, the planetary fetch-quests that are the Relays, and so on, in order to get to each new progress function, I believe that PvP should be a part of that. You don't believe that. Valid opinion. Tell me what you would then do with PvP to fix the problems with it being part of Warframe. And no, removing it isn't on the table for discussion.

Just to get the obvious out of the way: ABSOLUTELY NOT THAT! I can't stress this point enough, but stressing it further is pointless, so moving on...

If I had to speculate on ways to improve the exposure of PvP in a way that I (as someone who doesn't play or enjoy PvP) wouldn't find intrusive... I'd start with a quest which introduces people to Teshin. Relays in general are in a DIRE need of introduction, as they were one of the many points where I damn near rage-quit the game. I got to MR3, I was allowed on the Relay and then sort of let loose to roam around like "Press X to Jason" and deduce meaning where none is provided. I didn't even KNOW what the "Conclave" was when I spoke with Teshin. He speaks in riddles and doesn't really tell me what the hell is going on, so I noted his "Kurt from MDK" hat and moved on. Previously in my ship, I'd clicked on a "Mode" button which took me to a "Normal/Archwing/Conclave" selection. I didn't have an Archwing, I didn't know what a "Conclave" was so I never went back there until I got my actual Archwing... And then had to Google how to modify it.

A good first step would be to auto-activate a quest for people who reach MR3 to go to a relay, meet all of the characters there and have said characters explain their individual subsystem, as well as offer the player a minor menial task. When it comes to Teshin, have him explain what the Conclave is, how Conclave progression and builds work, what the rules are, what the modes are, etc. Then, have Teshin ask the player to do a PvP match. Let players refuse, but offer them a disproportionately large reward. Let's say 100K credits, win or lose. For a MR3 player, that's a lot. Make sure the option to refuse sticks around when players speak with Teshin after the fact, just in case they change their mind (or can't find a match).

Once Teshin's request is fulfilled or rejected, let the player choose a PvP-centric quest of some kind. Make it hidden like the two Prologue quests so it doesn't sit unfinished in people's logs, but make it pretty obvious from Teshin's dialogue that he's offering a PvP quest if the player wants to. That ought to get people familiar enough with the system to know if they want to keep going or else stop and not come back. Maybe give players the option to "give up" on this quest at any point, voiding the reward and re-hiding the quest - with the option to go back and restart it at any time.

I don't mind PvP being in the game and I certainly wouldn't say "remove it." If I had a magic wand, PvP would be WELL down on the list of things I'd touch, long after I've removed Critical Chance and Status Chance from the game. I just want it implemented as effectively a "side game" that people can play alongside the main one. If you want a rather crude example, think the shooters of the 90s - your Half-Life, your Sin, your Gore: Ultimate Soldier. You had the New Game / Load Game options for single player and a separate Multiplayer option for that. This is how I want PvP to be handled. Let people who want PvP engage in it, but don't cross it over with the main experience.

 

19 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Firefall did something similar, but turns out most people didn't really like the PvP there either. Same with The Division (despite it trying to sell its stupid af Dark Zone as a major development point for that game).

That right there really is the crux of it, though. I honestly don't know how much our suggestions here really CAN help make PvP more popular than it is. I'm not trying to appeal to popularity when I say this, but PvP in these kinds of games just doesn't work, historically speaking. Regardless of how much effort both the developers and the community put into it, it doesn't seem to stick. I quoted this in particular because The Division is the poster child of ambitious, high-budget, well-marketed PvP failing to catch on in pretty much the same way. After the initial hype died down, the Dark Zone was often entirely empty and largely full of griefers (part of the game's design, I know), causing friction on the forums. Eventually, Massive had to admit defeat and scale down the Division 2's dark zone DRASTICALLY. There are three zones now, but each is very small and has almost nothing in it but control points. There's little exploration, little PvP, with the biggest "feel" to the design being contracting space to focus players into the same spot with the hope of PvP happening.

In theory we could argue it's a chicken-and-egg situation where PvP is unpopular because it's unsupported, but we have plenty of evidence of high-profile PvP failing anyway. Even traditional PvP titles are starting to feel it. Armoured Warfare is probably the prime example. It launched as a competitor to World of Tanks, failed miserably at this and is now propped up by its co-op PvE mode with PvP barely limping along because the playerbase for it isn't there. They had to offer a scaled down 5v5 mode I think (down from 15v15) just so people could FIND matches. PvP opponents and lack of polish certainly contribute to PvP's lack of popularity, but I don't believe they're the root cause - not even remotely. And by the same token, while reinvesting in PvP and giving it more exposure WILL help, I don't think it'll help nearly enough to make an appreciable difference in the long run.

I generally don't like making argument to the tune of "that's just the way it is," but my observations in this case have been overwhelmingly consistent. I'm willing to entertain alternative interpretations, but I'd need some pretty convincing evidence in order to actually accept them. That's the idea I was going for, but my harsh tone ended up turning it into a dis - for which I do apologise.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

28 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Removal is the best option on the table, lol

It truly is, Warframe is a PvE game having pvp in it just pointless. Who looks at warframe and goes "the pvp is what drawed me in". 

UM are nothing but complete garbage to me now as a reward, the syndicates i could use it for aren't really hard to grind rep for to justify the medallions existence, the only use for it to me was conclave rep. 

I'm max rank in conclave and could not care if other people got the cosmetics eaiser,  they're just freaking cosmetics yet the gatekeepers of conclave pretend that your access a 1 hit kill heat seeking laser for conclave when in reality it just a glowly strip on your gun. I have all armor sets and syandana from conclave wanna know how this affects pve? The answer is it's just a cosmetic. Wanna know the affect on conclave players that i have these items? Literally nothing except their feelings are hurt over a vitural item in video game being obtained by someone they don't know.

Most of this UM discussion wouldn't exist if DE just let us grab the items for plat like the one armor set. 

[FrostDragoon]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

UM are nothing but complete garbage to me now as a reward, the syndicates i could use it for aren't really hard to grind rep for to justify the medallions existence, the only use for it to me was conclave rep. 

UM are pretty worthless by default just because of the low drop rate and low standing they give. If you can't use them for Conclave, why even have them in the game?

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

35 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

UM are pretty worthless by default just because of the low drop rate and low standing they give. If you can't use them for Conclave, why even have them in the game?

I actually got 3 in and 10 round run while trying to get friend gauss he was mad, got madder when told him that it can't be used in conclave, to quote him "then why call it universal in the first place?"

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Just to get the obvious out of the way: ABSOLUTELY NOT THAT! I can't stress this point enough, but stressing it further is pointless, so moving on...

Fair enough, agree to disagree, moving on.

17 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

If I had to speculate on ways to improve the exposure of PvP in a way that I (as someone who doesn't play or enjoy PvP) wouldn't find intrusive... I'd start with a quest which introduces people to Teshin.

Fantastic, we have a good suggestion.

Getting players into it, having a quest that was generically 'The Relays' would be a great one, actually. It gives one of the much needed introductions in the game, certainly, but this also gives us a viable way to teach and introduce PvP without forcing it on players; a Specter Only single player version that exists only within the quest.

This way it's only ever the beginner level, it's only ever the taster that gives you a few base mods (just like Vor's Prize gives the 'damaged' mods to introduce mods as a concept) and so everyone that starts Conclave has the same base mods and a knowledge of the basic rules as well.

It does not involve other players, and so it plays out much more like a PvE game mode, such as the Index or Rathuum, with the stat changes and the idea of teams being put in too.

And anyone playing this quest would then have access to PvP from the quest, it's an introduction to that while introducing the Relays and the other Syndicates. Maybe have the voice of the Leverian do some 'tour' for us during the start of it, loading us into an empty Relay just for the player and each time we enter a room the Leverian describes the people inside in brief terms, letting DE actually flesh them out with the Quests later, such as The Silver Grove, Chains of Harrow and The Glast Gambit.

We get the 'hello, this is the Relay' as part of the Teshin's intro to PvP, and maybe that's the only actually necessary PvP content to use for the Star Chart progression.

Thoughts?