"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Getting players into it, having a quest that was generically 'The Relays' would be a great one, actually. It gives one of the much needed introductions in the game, certainly, but this also gives us a viable way to teach and introduce PvP without forcing it on players; a Specter Only single player version that exists only within the quest. This way it's only ever the beginner level, it's only ever the taster that gives you a few base mods (just like Vor's Prize gives the 'damaged' mods to introduce mods as a concept) and so everyone that starts Conclave has the same base mods and a knowledge of the basic rules as well.

That's a good point - I hadn't considered Spectres. In that case, have Teshin's part of the general "Introduction to the Relays" quest be a mandatory match against easy Spectres so we don't have to worry about making it optional and complicating things for new players. Once that step is done, however, require the player to speak with Teshin again. He will set players up with some basic PvP mods (that's a thing, right?) and THEN offer an additional PvP-centric quest available only through his dialogue. Having tested the player, Teshin is now ready to give them a "real" challenge, fighting against actual human players. If the player accepts, start the quest in parallel to the one currently running. If the player refuses, keep the Quest hidden but have Teshin inform the player that they can come back any time if they change their mind.

That seems like a decent compromise I would have no problem with. The relays need an introduction anyway, and Teshin is a fixture of said Relays, so that's a good point introduce players into it and get them set up. For all the grief I give Destiny 2, a lot of its "new" quests go along the same line - go to a planet, speak with the main task-giver, do a few basic tasks for them. Essentially, it's a tour of all the people you can speak with for stuff. Even something this basic would be a major step up for Warframe.

[Klokwerkaos]

11 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

PvP is a special-case exception in this case, so it really doesn't work in this equivalence. All of the content you've mentioned disliking falls under the umbrella of PvE and so is distinctly different from anything to do with PvP. While I'm personally fine with a broad spread of PvE content even if it means pushing people into game modes they don't like, but I don't accept and will not be convinced to include PvP in there, as well. Including PvP in the core PvE progression system or forcing it into the same world-state is a deal-breaker for me, which would personally make me avoid a game entirely or stop playing if it were introduced mid-way through. Any game mode or system which forces you to directly compete with other people using the game's core systems should be segregated into its own independent section where it can only be seen and participated in by people who deliberately go there looking for it. This holds for any game which holds PvE as its primary focus - which Warframe does. I find anything more visible than that to be unacceptable.

I started playing Destiny 2 recently because... It's free. One of my instant annoyances was the so-called "Main Quest" immediately sending me into the Crucible - that game's version of the Conclave. The quest won't continue until I've played some PvP. The Division did the same thing as well, forcing me to complete a match of PvP so my NPC contacts would shut up about that #*!%ing mission. Know what I did? I jumped into a match, caught bullets with my teeth for 15 minutes, lost to people with better gear and left, never to return. Chances are I'll do the same with Destiny, and hope the game stops bringing it up. Putting Conclave nodes on planets in Warframe would be FAR more egregious than that, however.

 

Couple of points here. First of all, I completely agree. Artificial exclusivity is one of the worst monetisation practices in the gaming industry right now - I'd argue worse than lootboxes, even. At best it wastes content on a small subset of players in return for a cash infusion. At worst it's a con, cheating people into thinking that worth exists in an item which has none. As a bonus, it breeds a really poisonous mentality, ascribing worth to an item which has no value merely on the measure of how many people DON'T have it. I call this "poisonous," because it manifests as a desire to prevent other people from having what you have. Call me Communist if you want, but I care only and solely about what I have. As long as I have a thing, I'm perfectly fine with everyone else also having it and I'm fine with everyone else getting it easier than I did. I farmed Tower White off "Condrocks, but only on the ground." I farmed Juggernauts and I picked plants. I've no issue with that utter garbage being made less S#&$ to progress through.

The other point, however, is a bit of a disagreement. Over the years, I've come to believe that "Prestige Items" can exist and hold lasting worth... As long as they hold no intrinsic value BUT for their function as a status symbol. Ironically, it's the garbage gatcha monetisation of modern video games which gave me that idea, as the items I'd personally use for status are things like sigils, banners, name colours and such - the regalia surrounding how your "account" is presented to the world. Titanfall 2 is the one I can think of off the top of my head, and that had a banner for your name, an effect on that banner and a little badge next to it, which popped up for people you killed. Warframe already a similar system with sigils, and I have no issue with the game selling one-time-only prestige sigils for founders or those who were active at a specific point. The equivalent to "I killed Alad V and all I got was this lousy shirt." The main determining factor for what would constitute a "prestige item" is such an item which nobody would want BUT for the prestige it represents - an item worthless on its own merits.

yeah that's fine and all... except you have to consider a few things...

cosmetics do add value to the experience of the game.  I personally don't give a crap about sigils, but someone else may, if this wasn't the case why is fashion frame such a popular thing?

yes, it won't make you better at the game, but it does have inherent value to the experience.

exclusivity longer than a year is bs, after that the prestige wears off for all but the most narcissistic.

 

[Sevek7]

On 2019-09-15 at 3:21 AM, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Before I get right into it, here are some useful links for context and getting people up to speed with things.

For info on the Hema Dilemma, refer to this vid.

For info on the UEC Medallions, refer to this vid.

What's the common link between the two? Gatekeeping by a minority of players that affects the majority.

Now, before anyone goes all "It's not that hard to get Mutagen samples, just go to the Derelicts for a bit" , "UEC Meds have a low drop chance tho", or  "Just play Conclave, dude", let me disarm you right here & now, because that's not the angle I'm going for, else we wouldn't be here.

I'm coming from the angle of damning 99% of the playerbase(and many potential future players yet to try out the game) all "out of respect" for the 1% who went through grindy or less-played content. Steve even refused to change the drop chance of Mutagen Samples over of changing the base cost. Can that story of "I've heard positive feedback of clans working together to get Mutagen Samples" really apply to everyone, when single-member dojos are plentiful? I can understand not changing the initial value of it. DE is experimenting with different stuff as they go on, but the drop chance? Come on. Even Toroids got some love recently with Hotfix 25.7.4. Are you not going to honor the players who spent hours upon hours grinding for Toroids to rank up in Vox Solaris?

See how this can quickly become a slippery slope? Not changing stuff because some players cleared it and now want the rest of us to suffer through as they did. I can smell the entitlement from here.

And as for the UEC Medallions, it is not going to bring people back to the Conclave. If anything, it will probably make the mode even more dead and its content ignored, but it's alright, because at least the actual Conclave players can feel special with the exclusive loot they've painstakingly acquired. I've seen some players asking for a Conclave rework. That's all fine and good, but "universal" medallions should really be universal i.e meant to bypass usual methods of getting standing, else don't put the item into the game. Throw it back into the Void and give people something else for their grindy troubles.

People are already voting with their time, too. Rebb did mention in this article that the Hema isn't that popular in terms of player acquisition. I guess for some people, acquiring these "badges of honor" isn't actually worth their time, eh?

And if you think these two are isolated incidents, take a look at the new Lua Lens. An item to grind for to make your Focus grind slightly faster. Why not just buff focus gains across all lenses? Oh, that's right, because vets have probably maxed out most if not all the Focus trees, so it is only fair that everyone else should walk the same glass shard path.

Hence, here's today's motto:

"If it was painful for me, it should be as painful for thee."

At this rate, DE will probably need make a choice on who to please: the new players, or the entitled vets?

If you don't want to make that choice, I suggest really reconsidering how you guys go about making future tweaks. There is nothing wrong with listening to player feedback and improving accessibility of loot when initial methods/drop chances were too straining. Sure, some players will make noise about it, but they'll calm down eventually once newer stuff comes out. Meanwhile, future players who looked up the history of it will THANK you for it. It shows that the feedback system works, and that DE is listening.

In addition, I know that the entitled ones are the loud minority in the pool of actual veterans, including the one user who posted that "I don't care if I'm the only & last..." tweet. I'm MR21 with about ~1600 hours in Warframe, and while I don't consider myself a vet and play at a moderate pace, I would be glad to give feedback if I know my experience and voice will pave the way for future players to have an easier time with the game. Some of these may even be my friends whom I've introduced the game to.

But for now, I've sold my Hema BP, Lua Lenses are of no interest to me, and I'm still not going back to the Conclave.

Cheers.

Hiya! I agree with 90% of what you say here, but I think there's an important distinction that needs to be made. Firstly, I've been playing for a very long time, and did all the long grinds (The quill arcanes and mutagen for hema were the worst!) I was very glad when they changed the quill arcanes so that newer players wouldn't have to grind boring content in the same way, doing the Cetus Wisp farms got extremely boring! I fear that these silly, long grinds drove a lot of players to quit the game and may have turned off new players. Ultimately, I think along your same lines, that we should do what we can to make new players feel like their time is respected, and a lot of the grinds feel like they don't do that. I also think you're right that the vocal minority against this do have a mentality of "If it was painful for me, it should be as painful for thee." (Nice poem btw!) This mentality stems from a justified feeling that the players who already sank the time into it would now feel like that time wasn't respected. But, no matter how justified the feeling is, we should acknowledge that some grinds are just ridiculous and we can't expect players to do them while also maintaining their daily life. 

So, now we get to the part where I disagree, which is conclave, which I think has a particular distinction. In this case, some people just plain hate PvP. For those people who farmed the skins while hating doing it, it probably is a "If it was painful for me, it should be as painful for thee" situation. But, for the conclave community, it's instead more of a "I grew to really love it after a short time, and I want new players to discover a love for it too!" I remember wanting the skins, so I tried my hand at conclave, and got absolutely wrecked for a week (I'm talking 2 kills 19 deaths in matches consistently.) Then I did some chatting with the conclavers and got some really good advice. Some was how to better my skills, other advice was technical (Turning off Vsync made a huge difference, I honestly think Vsync alone might be one of the reasons the community at large hates conclave!) So in any case, that is the overall logic of the conclave community in resisting the universal medallions. We don't want anybody to suffer, because we didn't suffer, we enjoyed it! We're more worried that new players will be missing out on that enjoyment!

I actually think that universal medallions would have cause an uptick in conclave popularity because the grind for medallions would have been extremely long to get the skins. So I was all for it (and made a post about it somewhere in the conclave feedback section.) 

Some theorizing about PvP's place in online games, feel free to ignore: I'm aware that some people will never want PvP, and that is totally fine. But a healthy PvP scene is nevertheless an indicator of a healthy online game. Typically (although not always), PvP is what seasoned players do when they have finished all the PvE content. Without a healthy PvP scene, seasoned players will instead constantly need new  PvE content, so a game without healthy PvP will be overflowing with complaints of "content drought." This sounds a little familiar to me. So, even pure PvE players should want a good PvP scene, because it doesn't require that much in terms of development resources (unless they decide to rework conclave entirely!) and it will add longevity to the game instead of losing veterans every day.

I hope that I made the distinction clear here, and that we conclavers don't want people to suffer. If you have any questions about this feel free to quote me with a response 🙂 

[FrostDragoon]

Ultimately, WF just isn't a PvP game at its heart. I love me some PvP, but not here, not this game. Games that focus on it as the basis for the game nearly always do a better job of it when compared to the games which have a PvE focus and include it as an afterthought. That's just basic common sense, really. Even if you introduce a quest that shows people around the relays and the different NPCs there (which is fine, imo), I don't think it's going to change the fact that this just isn't a PvP game--the fact that they have to have different mods and balancing for it even shows why most players would regard it as a waste of time.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I actually think that universal medallions would have cause an uptick in conclave popularity because the grind for medallions would have been extremely long to get the skins. So I was all for it (and made a post about it somewhere in the conclave feedback section.)

Looking at how people are acting with them upon release it was never about mitigating the grind for many. Most people who dislike conclave saw it as a way to ... just get conclave standing or standing for syndicates they don’t like. I’ve seen threads where people are complaining that UMs need to drop more standing or have its drop rate increased because “I deserved it”

[FrostDragoon]

Pretty sure nobody has stated that as the reason, lol

[Miyabi-sama]

7 часов назад, Sevek7 сказал:

I remember wanting the skins, so I tried my hand at conclave, and got absolutely wrecked for a week (I'm talking 2 kills 19 deaths in matches consistently.) Then I did some chatting with the conclavers and got some really good advice. Some was how to better my skills, other advice was technical (Turning off Vsync made a huge difference, I honestly think Vsync alone might be one of the reasons the community at large hates conclave!) So in any case, that is the overall logic of the conclave community in resisting the universal medallions. We don't want anybody to suffer, because we didn't suffer, we enjoyed it! We're more worried that new players will be missing out on that enjoyment!

See, that is where you wrong. People ain't lovin' it, they hate it with passion. As you could see some evidences in this thread. And considering those rewards are a ripe grapes on a tall tree, they don't want to climb it. They instead want to chop the tree and get it. Just like that.

This isnt "just another reward for grind". Though I admit you can cheat daily and weekly challenges to get EZ standing, people don't even bother.

Newbies come here and expect Cc being like Overwatch at best. And every suggestion to change/improve Cc was about turning Cc into another game.

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

28 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Newbies come here and expect Cc being like Overwatch at best. And every suggestion to change/improve Cc was about turning Cc into another game.

In all honesty, that's how I'd change it too, if only because I think a mode about Tenno shooting each other just isn't going to work out well within this game's systems. I'd think it'd be better if it was more like sports games kinda like how Lunaro is set up. Things like shooting contests, maybe even foot races, things to compete with that isn't smacking each other around with weapons in an arena, because as mentioned above, those never seem to work out well.

But that's just my broad, general outlook. I've never touched Conclave, not even once, so I can't directly criticize how it functions currently.

[Steel_Rook]

10 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I remember wanting the skins, so I tried my hand at conclave, and got absolutely wrecked for a week (I'm talking 2 kills 19 deaths in matches consistently.) Then I did some chatting with the conclavers and got some really good advice. Some was how to better my skills, other advice was technical (Turning off Vsync made a huge difference, I honestly think Vsync alone might be one of the reasons the community at large hates conclave!) So in any case, that is the overall logic of the conclave community in resisting the universal medallions. We don't want anybody to suffer, because we didn't suffer, we enjoyed it! We're more worried that new players will be missing out on that enjoyment!

I'd like to offer an observation here. You've phrased the above as a story of growing to enjoy PvP, but to me it reads like you already enjoyed PvP and simply found a more compelling reason to do more of it. You managed to last an entire week getting killed and accomplishing very little, eventually doing research and starting to improve at the tail end. This tells me you were already into it to start. A player who doesn't like PvP isn't going to last a week. They aren't going to last two matches. This was more or less my experience with The Division structured PvP game mode. I showed up and got killed repeatedly. I rapidly realised that the cover system doesn't work in PvP and everyone had a PvP min-maxed build which put my PvE build to shame. I lasted about half a match actually trying to accomplish anything, the other half of the match wandering aimlessly waiting for the clock to count down and jumping in front of other people's guns because "what's the point?"

The reason I bring this distinction up is because I believe the idea of attracting people to PvP who wouldn't have sought it out themselves eventually to be unrealistic. Sure, individual exceptions exist - some people don't realise they're competitive until they start playing games online. A friend of mine has offered that exact quote multiple times. The majority of people, however, already know their preferences. As a result, pushing the Conclave isn't going to give you a significant population boost beyond what its mere existence will. Of the people who will end up enjoying it, the vast majority will seek it out independently of the game directing them to it.

Let me give you a random and quite stupid examples. I like machineguns. As soon as I start playing a shooter, my first order of business is tracking down a machinegun of some kind. Doesn't matter if it's good, doesn't matter if it's practical. I want one, and I will move heaven and earth to get one. I spent hours farming Mars Defence as a brand new MR2 player JUST to get a Gorgon. You could argue that if other just had the incentive to do so, they too would seek out and use the Gorgon but that's flipping cause and effect. I went through a lot of unfun gameplay because I like machineguns and was going to go through quite literally anything to get one or rage-quit the game trying. The only other people who are going to be convinced to try the Gorgon out are other enthusiasts like me.

The same goes for PvP. Neither barrier to entry nor incentive are the point. The people who want PvP will PvP. Obviously, improving the experience will get more of them to participate more frequently, but it's not going to do much of anything to "convert" PvE players to PvP. I am fully on-board with improving the Conclave (though I've limited ability to speculate on HOW). However, I'd argue that the ultimate goal - of the Conclave and of PvP in general - should never be to convert PvE players. The Division is an objective lesson in all the ways that doesn't work. The VERY best you can do is push PvE players into PvP so they can serve as victims for actual PvPers, and that's no fun for anyone. The only way a PvP system is ever going to be popular relative to a game's total population is if this is a PvP-focused game to begin with - your Overwatch, your World of Tanks, your Leage of Legends, your Titanfall, etc. The people playing those games went there for the PvP, so it's popular there.

Again, this isn't to poo-poo the Conclave. I've nothing against it. However, I feel it's important to accept that it's only ever going to be niche.

 

1 hour ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

In all honesty, that's how I'd change it too, if only because I think a mode about Tenno shooting each other just isn't going to work out well within this game's systems. I'd think it'd be better if it was more like sports games kinda like how Lunaro is set up. Things like shooting contests, maybe even foot races, things to compete with that isn't smacking each other around with weapons in an arena, because as mentioned above, those never seem to work out well.

And then there's that, yes. I'm not a PvP player so I don't want to hold opinions on the matter. In general, however, I find that "deathmatch" is easily the worst kind of PvP. I played my fair share of Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 Arena, Half-Life Deathmatch, etc. That's a very reductive kind of PvP which ends up alienating a large number of players by over-focusing on min-maxing and mechanical skill to the exclusion of any sort of broader tactics. It might have worked in the 90s when we didn't have anything else, but I don't think it has legs any more. If you want PvP with broader appeal, it needs to be more objective-focused, where you fight other people not to "dominate" them but because they're actively trying to prevent you from accomplishing your objective.

Honestly, the same can apply to all of Warframe. The game as a whole is way too heavily focused on just killing your enemy for the sake of killing your enemy and not much in the way of overall objective.

[Velothed]

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

18 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

If I had to speculate on ways to improve the exposure of PvP in a way that I (as someone who doesn't play or enjoy PvP) wouldn't find intrusive... I'd start with a quest which introduces people to Teshin.

Fantastic, we have a good suggestion.

Getting players into it, having a quest that was generically 'The Relays' would be a great one, actually. It gives one of the much needed introductions in the game, certainly, but this also gives us a viable way to teach and introduce PvP without forcing it on players; a Specter Only single player version that exists only within the quest.

This way it's only ever the beginner level, it's only ever the taster that gives you a few base mods (just like Vor's Prize gives the 'damaged' mods to introduce mods as a concept) and so everyone that starts Conclave has the same base mods and a knowledge of the basic rules as well.

It does not involve other players, and so it plays out much more like a PvE game mode, such as the Index or Rathuum, with the stat changes and the idea of teams being put in too.

Yes, this would be absolutely awesome! I've heard from so many new players, that they didn't have a clue who Teshin was before he appeared in the mainquest with phrases like "I have trained you" or something like that. Especially the last part, could actually be a thing that would let me get into PvP. Trying out the rules etc. beforehand. Before my first Lunaro match, I spent probably over an hour in the training stadium. (Lunaro is something I really wish was more popular, I'd actually love to play some casual rounds again, but the last few times I waited about 15min for anyone to join...)

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'd like to offer an observation here. You've phrased the above as a story of growing to enjoy PvP, but to me it reads like you already enjoyed PvP and simply found a more compelling reason to do more of it. You managed to last an entire week getting killed and accomplishing very little, eventually doing research and starting to improve at the tail end. This tells me you were already into it to start. A player who doesn't like PvP isn't going to last a week. They aren't going to last two matches. This was more or less my experience with The Division structured PvP game mode. I showed up and got killed repeatedly. I rapidly realised that the cover system doesn't work in PvP and everyone had a PvP min-maxed build which put my PvE build to shame. I lasted about half a match actually trying to accomplish anything, the other half of the match wandering aimlessly waiting for the clock to count down and jumping in front of other people's guns because "what's the point?"

The reason I bring this distinction up is because I believe the idea of attracting people to PvP who wouldn't have sought it out themselves eventually to be unrealistic. Sure, individual exceptions exist - some people don't realise they're competitive until they start playing games online. A friend of mine has offered that exact quote multiple times. The majority of people, however, already know their preferences. As a result, pushing the Conclave isn't going to give you a significant population boost beyond what its mere existence will. Of the people who will end up enjoying it, the vast majority will seek it out independently of the game directing them to it.

Let me give you a random and quite stupid examples. I like machineguns. As soon as I start playing a shooter, my first order of business is tracking down a machinegun of some kind. Doesn't matter if it's good, doesn't matter if it's practical. I want one, and I will move heaven and earth to get one. I spent hours farming Mars Defence as a brand new MR2 player JUST to get a Gorgon. You could argue that if other just had the incentive to do so, they too would seek out and use the Gorgon but that's flipping cause and effect. I went through a lot of unfun gameplay because I like machineguns and was going to go through quite literally anything to get one or rage-quit the game trying. The only other people who are going to be convinced to try the Gorgon out are other enthusiasts like me.

The same goes for PvP. Neither barrier to entry nor incentive are the point. The people who want PvP will PvP. Obviously, improving the experience will get more of them to participate more frequently, but it's not going to do much of anything to "convert" PvE players to PvP. I am fully on-board with improving the Conclave (though I've limited ability to speculate on HOW). However, I'd argue that the ultimate goal - of the Conclave and of PvP in general - should never be to convert PvE players. The Division is an objective lesson in all the ways that doesn't work. The VERY best you can do is push PvE players into PvP so they can serve as victims for actual PvPers, and that's no fun for anyone. The only way a PvP system is ever going to be popular relative to a game's total population is if this is a PvP-focused game to begin with - your Overwatch, your World of Tanks, your Leage of Legends, your Titanfall, etc. The people playing those games went there for the PvP, so it's popular there.

Again, this isn't to poo-poo the Conclave. I've nothing against it. However, I feel it's important to accept that it's only ever going to be niche.

 

And then there's that, yes. I'm not a PvP player so I don't want to hold opinions on the matter. In general, however, I find that "deathmatch" is easily the worst kind of PvP. I played my fair share of Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 Arena, Half-Life Deathmatch, etc. That's a very reductive kind of PvP which ends up alienating a large number of players by over-focusing on min-maxing and mechanical skill to the exclusion of any sort of broader tactics. It might have worked in the 90s when we didn't have anything else, but I don't think it has legs any more. If you want PvP with broader appeal, it needs to be more objective-focused, where you fight other people not to "dominate" them but because they're actively trying to prevent you from accomplishing your objective.

Honestly, the same can apply to all of Warframe. The game as a whole is way too heavily focused on just killing your enemy for the sake of killing your enemy and not much in the way of overall objective.

Hey Steel_Rook!

You make excellent points, and your anecdotes are valid. I think we're basically in agreement, I did mention that there will always exist players who will refuse to PvP no matter what, and that's fine. I would like to offer one more observation here that I think is a misconception that we generally accept but is actually not true. The disctinction between "PvP players" and "PvE players" is not as black and white as you suggest. As with the vast majority of things with two extremes, 99% of people fit somewhere on a spectrum between those extremes. So when you talk about "Converting PvE players," it sounds like you're referring to people who are at the far extreme where they love PvE and will never like PvP. Obviously we have no chance of "converting" these players, and it would be all for naught because they wouldn't enjoy it anyway. But these people are not the majority of people avoiding the conclave. The majority tend to sit somewhere in the middle of spectrums, where they enjoy the PvE and aren't opposed to PvP. I worry that these people tried conclave but were scared away because of a lack of introduction and also technical problems like Vsync was for me. Personally I was probably somewhere right in the middle of this spectrum, I came to warframe originally for the PvE content, and discovered the PvP later on. I don't think that this is atypical. I don't think the vocal minority who will absolutely 100% never want PvP are quite as large a segment of the playerbase as we think. The good news is the game is big enough for all types of players on that spectrum, we can have good PvE and PvP content 🙂 

 

[Sevek7]

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

See, that is where you wrong. People ain't lovin' it, they hate it with passion. As you could see some evidences in this thread. And considering those rewards are a ripe grapes on a tall tree, they don't want to climb it. They instead want to chop the tree and get it. Just like that.

This isnt "just another reward for grind". Though I admit you can cheat daily and weekly challenges to get EZ standing, people don't even bother.

Newbies come here and expect Cc being like Overwatch at best. And every suggestion to change/improve Cc was about turning Cc into another game.

Hi there! 

Well, sure, some people hate it with a passion. And typically people who hate things are the ones who make forum posts describing their hate of it. So this thread is a bit of a biased sample 😉 

Yeah a lot of the suggestions have been to make conclave not even warframe anymore, which is silly! There have been some good suggestions though, if you know the names of conclavers and search out their posts you'll find some better feedback.

[FrostDragoon]

45 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

if you know the names of conclavers and search out their posts you'll find some better feedback.

Think it's easier to find the thousands of posts from people who hate it than the dozens of people who like it.

[Sevek7]

12 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Think it's easier to find the thousands of posts from people who hate it than the dozens of people who like it.

Sadly I think you're right, I have a warped view of this since I know the names of the conclavers (due to in-game familiarity and the conclave discord.) Thus my mind automatically filters out the conclave feedback made by people who obviously haven't really tried it.

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Sadly I think you're right, I have a warped view of this since I know the names of the conclavers (due to in-game familiarity and the conclave discord.) Thus my mind automatically filters out the conclave feedback made by people who obviously haven't really tried it.

I think it depends on what feedback you're talking about, though. If you're saying, "PvP/Cc should be added as a mandatory part of the progression experience," the non-PvPers will be entirely in the right to oppose it. If you're asking, "What can we do to actively improve Conclave?" I think it's fair to ask the people who actually play/enjoy that content.

[Sevek7]

4 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I think it depends on what feedback you're talking about, though. If you're saying, "PvP/Cc should be added as a mandatory part of the progression experience," the non-PvPers will be entirely in the right to oppose it. If you're asking, "What can we do to actively improve Conclave?" I think it's fair to ask the people who actually play/enjoy that content.

Oh yeah for sure it should not be a mandatory part of progression. Nobody should be forced to play PvP in a PvE focused game if they don't want to! Definitely the second kind of feedback is far more useful 🙂 Although this:

 

21 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Fair enough, agree to disagree, moving on.

Fantastic, we have a good suggestion.

Getting players into it, having a quest that was generically 'The Relays' would be a great one, actually. It gives one of the much needed introductions in the game, certainly, but this also gives us a viable way to teach and introduce PvP without forcing it on players; a Specter Only single player version that exists only within the quest.

This way it's only ever the beginner level, it's only ever the taster that gives you a few base mods (just like Vor's Prize gives the 'damaged' mods to introduce mods as a concept) and so everyone that starts Conclave has the same base mods and a knowledge of the basic rules as well.

It does not involve other players, and so it plays out much more like a PvE game mode, such as the Index or Rathuum, with the stat changes and the idea of teams being put in too.

And anyone playing this quest would then have access to PvP from the quest, it's an introduction to that while introducing the Relays and the other Syndicates. Maybe have the voice of the Leverian do some 'tour' for us during the start of it, loading us into an empty Relay just for the player and each time we enter a room the Leverian describes the people inside in brief terms, letting DE actually flesh them out with the Quests later, such as The Silver Grove, Chains of Harrow and The Glast Gambit.

We get the 'hello, this is the Relay' as part of the Teshin's intro to PvP, and maybe that's the only actually necessary PvP content to use for the Star Chart progression.

Thoughts?

Is an awesome suggestion! Combat against specters will be radically different from combat against other players, but nevertheless it can be a good way to get people to make loadouts, and just dip a toe in the water without requiring more commitment.

[FrostDragoon]

43 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Oh yeah for sure it should not be a mandatory part of progression. Nobody should be forced to play PvP in a PvE focused game if they don't want to! Definitely the second kind of feedback is far more useful 🙂 Although this:

 

Is an awesome suggestion! Combat against specters will be radically different from combat against other players, but nevertheless it can be a good way to get people to make loadouts, and just dip a toe in the water without requiring more commitment.

I personally wouldn't want to deal with that stuff during my new player experience, but it's barely in the realm of tolerable that I wouldn't entirely object to it in the game.

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

On 2019-10-07 at 7:51 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

So how about those ideas then?

Integrating Conclave more into the rest of the game does sound nice on paper, though that would need an overhaul in the game mode itself, which is what a lot of Conclave players are calling for. Hopefully DE hopes to revisit Conclave in the future once they've got major stuff like Empyrean out of the way.

18 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

So, now we get to the part where I disagree, which is conclave, which I think has a particular distinction. In this case, some people just plain hate PvP. For those people who farmed the skins while hating doing it, it probably is a "If it was painful for me, it should be as painful for thee" situation. But, for the conclave community, it's instead more of a "I grew to really love it after a short time, and I want new players to discover a love for it too!" I remember wanting the skins, so I tried my hand at conclave, and got absolutely wrecked for a week (I'm talking 2 kills 19 deaths in matches consistently.) Then I did some chatting with the conclavers and got some really good advice. Some was how to better my skills, other advice was technical (Turning off Vsync made a huge difference, I honestly think Vsync alone might be one of the reasons the community at large hates conclave!) So in any case, that is the overall logic of the conclave community in resisting the universal medallions. We don't want anybody to suffer, because we didn't suffer, we enjoyed it! We're more worried that new players will be missing out on that enjoyment!

I actually think that universal medallions would have cause an uptick in conclave popularity because the grind for medallions would have been extremely long to get the skins. So I was all for it (and made a post about it somewhere in the conclave feedback section.) 

Some theorizing about PvP's place in online games, feel free to ignore: I'm aware that some people will never want PvP, and that is totally fine. But a healthy PvP scene is nevertheless an indicator of a healthy online game. Typically (although not always), PvP is what seasoned players do when they have finished all the PvE content. Without a healthy PvP scene, seasoned players will instead constantly need new  PvE content, so a game without healthy PvP will be overflowing with complaints of "content drought." This sounds a little familiar to me. So, even pure PvE players should want a good PvP scene, because it doesn't require that much in terms of development resources (unless they decide to rework conclave entirely!) and it will add longevity to the game instead of losing veterans every day.

I hope that I made the distinction clear here, and that we conclavers don't want people to suffer. If you have any questions about this feel free to quote me with a response 🙂 

Where's the disagreement, though? Seems we're on the same page here, especially when I pointed out one page earlier that medallions can supplement Conclave progression instead of replacing it completely, and that only a minority of players think along the lines of the thread's title. It's good to hear that Conclave players are friendly and helpful as opposed to the usual toxic PvP scenes in other games.

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

It's good to hear that Conclave players are friendly and helpful as opposed to the usual toxic PvP scenes in other games.

I think they kind of have to be, lol. If you are toxic and hostile to even 1/3 of the people you face in Conclave, you only have 4 others to play with.

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I personally wouldn't want to deal with that stuff during my new player experience, but it's barely in the realm of tolerable that I wouldn't entirely object to it in the game.

Yeah, a 10 minute fight with some specters should be tolerable for just about anyone I would think!

 

46 minutes ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Integrating Conclave more into the rest of the game does sound nice on paper, though that would need an overhaul in the game mode itself, which is what a lot of Conclave players are calling for. Hopefully DE hopes to revisit Conclave in the future once they've got major stuff like Empyrean out of the way.

Where's the disagreement, though? Seems we're on the same page here, especially when I pointed out one page earlier that medallions can supplement Conclave progression instead of replacing it completely, and that only a minority of players think along the lines of the thread's title. It's good to hear that Conclave players are friendly and helpful as opposed to the usual toxic PvP scenes in other games.

Haha yes we're in agreement on all the technical details, I simply wanted to clarify the mentality that some conclavers have towards the issue. Disagreement was the wrong word, perhaps a "nuanced perspective" was more correct. I'm also glad that the toxicity of some PvP scenes doesn't seem to have penetrated warframe PvP in the same way. there's even a general consensus among the seasoned PvPers to avoid using abilities & overpowered weapons in public matches. It's a nice crowd 🙂 

[Hyohakusha]

On Hema, I absolutely agree. Short of buying multiple boosters and using a specific frame set up for farming, there is no way to research it without running Derelict Defense until you're burnt out, even with an active clan. The fact that is not worth the 5k minimum samples it takes to research only makes it worse. That said, the "we did it so you should have to" sentiment would be more accurately described as "they did it so you should have to", because I haven't heard it from players, only from DE. 

On Focus, it's a mixed bag. The overall cost to unlock nodes is still absurd. The exponential cost of pool points it takes to even activate those nodes is even worse. The fact that pool points have to be bought in fixed increments of focus from a single focus school doesn't feel right either. If pool is universal, you should be able to spend any amount of focus from any number of schools on pool points. After completing an entire school and unlocking it's waybounds, your going to have points left over. Without wasting time, daily focus cap or lenses to hit that specific number to buy the next increment of pool, those points are wasted. However, the focus grind itself is no where near as bad as it once was. You can easily capture 4 Teralysts for a hundred thousand extra a night, and ESO is far better than Adaro ever was, allowing you to hit your cap in 1-3 runs, even without an affinity booster. Another pass on total cost and an adjustment to the way pool works would be great, as with ESO and Eidolon hunting where they are now, focus would finally be reasonable. DE needs to do some work, but at the same time they playerbase's perception of focus grind hasn't quite caught up to where it actually is yet.

Now, as for Conclave. People aren't going to like this. Conclave is the only mode in the entire game that actually rewards skill. I don't mean knowing how to build a frame or weapon for the job, I mean actual hand-eye coordination, reflexes, ability to aim and an understanding of the mechanics of movement in Warframe. People don't like Conclave because they don't like irrefutable proof that, when confronted by something other than an AI, they suck at the game. On one hand, you can't entirely blame them for that; the rest of the game is a power fantasy. You only need to understand how mod and use your abilities correctly, then you can mow down enemies left and right, and there's nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, time and time again, I will see someone post "Conclave sucks" in region chat, click on their profile, and see that they have 0 kills and 0 deaths. They never even bothered to try, simply because they heard that the game mode is bad from other players. That's on the players, not DE. Other than a few outliers, and mainly two weapons and zaws, Conclave is very well balanced, which is astonishing considering how many pieces of gear are available.

As for the video addressing medallions, that was just sad. Someone who put in the effort to get to Typhoon isn't "entitled". They put in the effort to get there. That's exact opposite of the definition of entitlement. Entitlement is thinking that you have a right to something when you put in no effort to achieve it. Would farming a few HUNDRED universal medallions to get there be an effort? Yes. It would also be sheer insanity, like having to farm five thousand mutagen samples for a gun. Or you could actually try out Conclave for yourself, instead of listening to people who simply jump on the hate bandwagon, many of whom, like I pointed out earlier, have never even bothered to try the game mode. Basically the same situation you encounter in any PvP game, though in Warframe, that sentiment is fueled by player's perception far more than it is by any faults with the Conclave itself. Trying it once, getting killed by someone who's been playing far longer than you have, and immediately dumping on the game mode doesn't make it bad. You not bothering to learn doesn't make it bad. That reaction, the perception, and the hate conclave gets are the reason why there aren't may people playing it, which of course then just gets lumped into another reason why "Conclave sucks".  And universal medallions weren't going to do anything to change that.

I know people aren't going to agree with that; I don't mind one way or the other. And trust me, the skins and syandana don't look anywhere as nice as you think they do. Just try not to add to an unreasonable looping cycle of hate for one game mode simply because it wasn't your cup of tea. 

[-Degu]

9 minutes ago, Hyohakusha said:

Now, as for Conclave. People aren't going to like this. Conclave is the only mode in the entire game that actually rewards skill. I don't mean knowing how to build a frame or weapon for the job, I mean actual hand-eye coordination, reflexes, ability to aim and an understanding of the mechanics of movement in Warframe. People don't like Conclave because they don't like irrefutable proof that, when confronted by something other than an AI, they suck at the game. On one hand, you can't entirely blame them for that; the rest of the game is a power fantasy. You only need to understand how mod and use your abilities correctly, then you can mow down enemies left and right, and there's nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, time and time again, I will see someone post "Conclave sucks" in region chat, click on their profile, and see that they have 0 kills and 0 deaths. They never even bothered to try, simply because they heard that the game mode is bad from other players. That's on the players, not DE. Other than a few outliers, and mainly two weapons and zaws, Conclave is very well balanced, which is astonishing considering how many pieces of gear are available.

Wow, someone who has  some objective reasoning. Commendable, be proud of yourself! 

Thanks for understanding, and speaking out to help a really small minority in the warframe community! 

[FrostDragoon]

4 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

Now, as for Conclave. People aren't going to like this. Conclave is the only mode in the entire game that actually rewards skill. I don't mean knowing how to build a frame or weapon for the job, I mean actual hand-eye coordination, reflexes, ability to aim and an understanding of the mechanics of movement in Warframe. People don't like Conclave because they don't like irrefutable proof that, when confronted by something other than an AI, they suck at the game.

Stopped reading here. Putting aside the idiotic "elitist" gate-keeping, you're entirely missing the point. I have a controversial idea for you: People who don't like PvP... DON'T LIKE PVP. It's that simple. This game was not built for it and it's not done well in this game. That's it. Full stop. Period.

Trying to put these weird assumptions of yours on those players just makes you look like the a**h*** here and entirely ruins whatever value your "feedback" is supposed to offer.

Edited October 9, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[DeMonkey]

19 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

But at the same time, time and time again, I will see someone post "Conclave sucks" in region chat, click on their profile, and see that they have 0 kills and 0 deaths.

Conclave sucks.

Feel free to check mine.

Edit: Finally got the chance to check yours, I must admit it did make me smile.

Edited October 10, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Test-995]

4 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

Now, as for Conclave. People aren't going to like this. Conclave is the only mode in the entire game that actually rewards skill. I don't mean knowing how to build a frame or weapon for the job, I mean actual hand-eye coordination, reflexes, ability to aim and an understanding of the mechanics of movement in Warframe. People don't like Conclave because they don't like irrefutable proof that, when confronted by something other than an AI, they suck at the game.

They don't have incentives to getting better at it, no one is good at 0 hours of playtime, there is no reason to spend thousands and thousands hours of losing just to get better at such low populated PvP mode in PvE game for pretty much majority of people.

Every low population PvP games have this problem though, matching against excessively high skill (or possibly low skill) player wrecks PvP experience completely.

But well, i can agree that it's mostly on players.