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Do you think the next mainline will include difficult or sustainable content?


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1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Difficult? Why? This is Warframe, a power fantasy game, difficult content contradicts that.

Sustainable? Erm... dunno, does that mean fun content? Cause if it means something like Rivens, then I sure as hell hope not.

Orb boss

eidolons (arguable) 

conclave (arguable)

(survival and any endless mode)

would contradict that as well.

 

and while I do agree that fun doesn’t have to be difficult and I’m not against a power fantasy id like more engaging content rather then having to do things on autopilot ingame 

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One thing that we all need to remember is that Challenge and Difficulty can mean two very different things. To some they are the same thing, to others they are not and the meaning of those is also fluid. I am always brought back to what Steve and Scott said in Devstream 122 (around the 40 minute mark is where they get more into it) is just how disparate the capabilities of players are AND to quote Steve "Doing high damage is not a challenge." followed by Scott with "Math is easy." which is what the current top tier meta is. Finding the biggest numbers and throwing them at enemies. 

This leads me to believe or more like hope that DE's ideas here are not to go the easy route to just bump up the levels. I am very curious for Empyrian because I have been led to believe that it is a testing ground for them to try out other methods of progression, difficulty and challenge for possible future alterations for the core gameplay loop. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Warframe and sustainable content. You do realize people have been playing for over half a decade, right? It's the weakest arguement on this forum. Just say "I want more of my personal favorite content".

Difficulty. For us vets, not majorly in Railjack. Remember, not everyone wants to be pushed into a difficulty that would make them not play the game. That's a select few, not a great majority. However, I do see them adding secret zones that are Mot level raids that would make use of the kingpin system. As long as people stop making dumb arguements like "no bullet sponges" while also saying "no gating", then DE can continue to experiment with options. Puzzles are time gates and most tough raid bosses are massive bullet sponges. Point to a suitable boss and tell DE to take notes.

A lot of you argue that someone. Offering feedback or criticism is just saying “I want more of what I want in the game meh meh meh I’m angry” and that’s far from the truth. 

Nobody is asking for near impossible content or content so hard it’s making people not want to play. Some people just want a challenge. Nobody is really saying make all content hard. Rather then can you include some difficult content here and there for more seasoned players if they’d like.

*• and if they are mot level can they please boost the level by 20 maybe 30  please de 

 

i also agree and gave praise to the bosses in an earlier post. But there aren’t any super unique bosses besides Kayla the ropalyst and Lephantis on the star chart imo. You have orb and eidlyons yes but a lot of players don’t want to grind the standing just to fight orb. and you have the new boss from the event which is fun.

 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Orb boss

Tedious, not hard.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

eidolons (arguable) 

Again, tedious.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

conclave (arguable)

Not pve content.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

(survival and any endless mode)

Most endless modes are tedious to outright boring and terrible (hello, Defection), Survival and Disruption are kinda fun though.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

id like more engaging content

I'd like that too, but I don't see how difficulty = engaging. I want fun content first and foremost, and more often than not (at least in Warframe), difficulty goes against that.

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2 minutes ago, Lakais said:

One thing that we all need to remember is that Challenge and Difficulty can mean two very different things. To some they are the same thing, to others they are not and the meaning of those is also fluid. I am always brought back to what Steve and Scott said in Devstream 122 (around the 40 minute mark is where they get more into it) is just how disparate the capabilities of players are AND to quote Steve "Doing high damage is not a challenge." followed by Scott with "Math is easy." which is what the current top tier meta is. Finding the biggest numbers and throwing them at enemies. 

This leads me to believe or more like hope that DE's ideas here are not to go the easy route to just bump up the levels. I am very curious for Empyrian because I have been led to believe that it is a testing ground for them to try out other methods of progression, difficulty and challenge for possible future alterations for the core gameplay loop. 

I honestly hope so!

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1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

Tedious, not hard.

Again, tedious.

Not pve content.

Most endless modes are tedious to outright boring and terrible (hello, Defection), Survival and Disruption are kinda fun though.

I'd like that too, but I don't see how difficulty = engaging. I want fun content first and foremost, and more often than not (at least in Warframe), difficulty goes against that.

While me and you are geared for it a lot of people still find the top two difficult because of many reasons.

 

pvp can be included because it’s still apart of the game bro whether you choose to play or not.

the argument that endless modes are tedious again while may be valid is difficult at a certain point. 

Difficulty doesn’t go against warframe at all. But I see a pattern of DE not knowing how to produce a fine in between. Look at wolf . A lot of people thought wolf was way to hard and didn’t enjoy him. Same with day one fortuna. De has yet to find that middle ground where they can produce content they can provide a challenge yet not be too hard for players. Or give optional modes for players to do such.

you can argue Arbys or eso but like you said endless modes are tedious and I agree

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

While me and you are geared for it a lot of people still find the top two difficult because of many reasons.

Exactly! You and me don't find this difficult anymore, but most people do. That's because you and me played this game for so long that nothing, ever, will truly challenge us anymore. That's the thing with veterans, they fail to understand that no game in existence will ever be capable of genuinely challenging them after hundreds, if not thousands of hours. I don't see why that's so hard to accept. Everyone who's been playing this game for as long as I did apparently lives in denial, like somehow Railjack, New War or Duviri will fix all their problems... those problems don't exist normally, they only exist because we've played this game for so long. This game will never ever be challenging again. It will be tedious and boring, but not challenging. Because we know it inside out. So either we accept that we've played this game for far too long, and enjoy it for what it is and will always be, or just keep living in denial, desiring a thing that will never become reality due to our own knowledge.

So yes, we are too strong for this game. We'll always be too strong for this game. The content you desire will never exist. Not the next mainline, or the one after that, or the one after that, or ever. Because you are too good at this game. Simple as that.

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Just now, Gabbynaru said:

Exactly! You and me don't find this difficult anymore, but most people do. That's because you and me played this game for so long that nothing, ever, will truly challenge us anymore. That's the thing with veterans, they fail to understand that no game in existence will ever be capable of genuinely challenging them after hundreds, if not thousands of hours. I don't see why that's so hard to accept. Everyone who's been playing this game for as long as I did apparently lives in denial, like somehow Railjack, New War or Duviri will fix all their problems... those problems don't exist normally, they only exist because we've played this game for so long. This game will never ever be challenging again. It will be tedious and boring, but not challenging. Because we know it inside out. So either we accept that we've played this game for far too long, and enjoy it for what it is and will always be, or just keep living in denial, desiring a thing that will never become reality due to our own knowledge.

So yes, we are too strong for this game. We'll always be too strong for this game. The content you desire will never exist. Not the next mainline, or the one after that, or the one after that, or ever. Because you are too good at this game. Simple as that.

I can say after 1.2 k hours in tera while the dungeons may not be hard they are still difficult.

i can say that after 2k hours in between D1-D2 a strike or raid with max gear and the current best gear in the game and it’ll still be a challenge.

you can invest time in a game and it’ll still be a challenge or not super easy brother.

 

and also they’ve tried to add difficult content to the game again brother it’s just about them finding a balance for it. It’s not about accepting it. But helping the devs in a sense. They’ve also stated they wanted to make harder content here and there in dev streams it’s just a matter of how it’s implmented.

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I can say after 1.2 k hours in tera while the dungeons may not be hard they are still difficult.

i can say that after 2k hours in between D1-D2 a strike or raid with max gear and the current best gear in the game and it’ll still be a challenge.

you can invest time in a game and it’ll still be a challenge or not super easy brother.

 

and also they’ve tried to add difficult content to the game again brother it’s just about them finding a balance for it. It’s not about accepting it. But helping the devs in a sense. They’ve also stated they wanted to make harder content here and there in dev streams it’s just a matter of how it’s implmented.

One thing to remember about MMO's like Tera, WoW or ANY class based RPG is that the loot you get is 90% class locked. Meaning you have more reasons to run that Raid or whatever for dozens of times because the chances for you to get that loot the class you want it for is low, and then layer on top getting the best version should some randomized stat system be in place. The closest WF has to that are Rivens and Augments with the later ones being completely outside the loot loop. Same with characters and classes. You level one up, do the story and the occational high tier mission or Raid, but you will shift gears and take up a second character who will start more-or-less from scratch and that early, low level content becomes valid again. You have more things to keep you occupied. Keeping track of raids or world events for your high level character and farming levels or whatever for your low level toons. 

And for the vast majority of games, the devs have a very good idea, and a very tight grip on how much damage a player can take and deal. They don't have this kind of a wild swing between player capabilities that can end up in a single instance. As such, enemies and such can be far more easily and reliably tailored to be dangerous enough to warrant caution without being blatantly broken. This is the main problem with Warframe: there isn't a clear baseline and there isn't a clear ceiling. Without those things, Devs can't really plan around players. Especially the ceiling part. Without knowing the top DPS capability of a player, how are you going to create an enemy that can stand up to not only those players who are at that power level without being completely unkillable to the next lower tier? 

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19 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I wonder if railjack will have some sort of difficulty vs more tedious team communication that was shown in LOR

well certainly no on the difficulty part or replay ability if everyone brings the room cleaning weapons and frames to the game. there is a limit to having a reasonable difficulty and a challenge, especially if the tools that we use end up breaking through most "challenges" we face. and its not so much as DE's fault is more of the player community's fault. DE just supplied us with the resources. and then we used those resources to a scary degree of efficiency. i mean since when does a player community focus on a simplistic build for a frame or weapon and just enjoy the game that way. and don't give the excuse of "because of drop rates." if drop rates where reduced right now, would that still prevent people from using the most efficient tactic available? no. 

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23 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

well certainly no on the difficulty part or replay ability if everyone brings the room cleaning weapons and frames to the game. there is a limit to having a reasonable difficulty and a challenge, especially if the tools that we use end up breaking through most "challenges" we face. and its not so much as DE's fault is more of the player community's fault. DE just supplied us with the resources. and then we used those resources to a scary degree of efficiency. i mean since when does a player community focus on a simplistic build for a frame or weapon and just enjoy the game that way. and don't give the excuse of "because of drop rates." if drop rates where reduced right now, would that still prevent people from using the most efficient tactic available? no. 

it is de's job to moderate and maintain game balance, inculding the tools at our disposal, and how they interact with our enemies and vice versa. if there is an absence of such it is full well on them for failing at one of their duties as the designers of the game. placing the onus on players to self moderate and balance the game, especially in a multiplayer environment is just shirking their duties and a recipe for disaster. 

as it is now i'd have to forgo most of the modding system, matchmaking entirely, select frames and gameplay mechanics (i.e operators) to get to a state of non-cheesable play and that not an appropriate answer to making gameplay engaging - having to cut out large chunks of the games design/systems. 

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6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

it is de's job to moderate and maintain game balance, inculding the tools at our disposal, and how they interact with our enemies and vice versa. if there is an absence of such it is full well on them for failing at one of their duties as the designers of the game. placing the onus on players to self moderate and balance the game, especially in a multiplayer environment is just shirking their duties and a recipe for disaster. 

as it is now i'd have to forgo most of the modding system, matchmaking entirely, select frames and gameplay mechanics (i.e operators) to get to a state of non-cheesable play and that not an appropriate answer to making gameplay engaging - having to cut out large chunks of the games design/systems. 

and just how do you expect to have that solved so easily? it's not a cake walk or easy as pie. there game has been out for years. and after all that content  that built up it is bound to be tons of cheep stratigies lurking in it's depths saying that it is entirely the dev's fault is just plain on ignorance. their has been a focus on meta in this community for a while now and see how that gets you? 

wanna know some proof of this. get someone thats new to the game and have that person not be able to ask for information from other players or look on some random web for their info. without outside help it is the most difficult to start out. yet if you introduce help from the outside then it becomes more simpler. sure dev's haven't kept on the balancing bit but how do you expect a group of dev to know everything about the game and expect to know which bits of coding to tweak fast enough to stamp out an overly used build within a short amount of work time.

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DE would have to wane the playerbase off of the idea that they always have to be rewarded with new and more powerful gear if they want to create any semblance of sustainable endgame. One that doesn't require them to powercreep the hell out of the game every few months like they've done for the past 7 years. So my money is on "no". The next nightwave could be a bellwether for how or if they try to shift their reward structure from extrinsic to something that benefits the game more in the long term.

Even if they set their minds to it right now it wouldn't be until 2 years from now that we'd see any concrete development on that front. Gameplay with intrinsic rewards are hard to monetize, so nightwave might give them the room to experiment with it. Even then, though, I'm not super optimistic. We'll see, and I hope I get proven wrong.

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Add several types of ships to Empyrean - single pilot fighters, multi-crew ships (like the Railjack), etc.

Or several people each flying their own ship. Imagine 4 fighters or maybe 2 fighter and a multi-crew frigate fighting several Grineer galleons in ship-to-ship combat.

 

Several game modes for Empyrean, from the stuff we already know about to perhaps defense missions where you defend an area or maybe a space station.

Environmental hazards such as black holes that have an impact on your ships handling because it's constantly pulling you in a direction.

 

I see a lot of possibilities here.

But will we get any of it?

I doubt it.

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2 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

DE would have to wane the playerbase off of the idea that they always have to be rewarded with new and more powerful gear if they want to create any semblance of sustainable endgame. One that doesn't require them to powercreep the hell out of the game every few months like they've done for the past 7 years. So my money is on "no". The next nightwave could be a bellwether for how or if they try to shift their reward structure from extrinsic to something that benefits the game more in the long term.

Even if they set their minds to it right now it wouldn't be until 2 years from now that we'd see any concrete development on that front. Gameplay with intrinsic rewards are hard to monetize, so nightwave might give them the room to experiment with it. Even then, though, I'm not super optimistic. We'll see, and I hope I get proven wrong.

honestly needs to be a communal effort between the dev's and the players. dev's need to find ways to encourage us to play the game without including power creep and the community needs to get into a mindset that doesn't equal to heavy meta= faster rewards. because thats the whole bit of players do meta builds, which is to farm faster. while this would be better for dev's to reduce the grind by making the stuff more easily obtainable, we the players just need to relax every now and then. honestly admit there have been some times i got impenitent and resort to some tactics that makes it easy for me but in the long run. i might of gotten that item far quicker, i then have nothing to work to. while i can now accept that my actions that if i go the fast and easy route i will end up reducing options of stuff i can do.

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1 hour ago, maddragonmaster said:

and just how do you expect to have that solved so easily? it's not a cake walk or easy as pie. there game has been out for years. and after all that content  that built up it is bound to be tons of cheep stratigies lurking in it's depths saying that it is entirely the dev's fault is just plain on ignorance. their has been a focus on meta in this community for a while now and see how that gets you? 

wanna know some proof of this. get someone thats new to the game and have that person not be able to ask for information from other players or look on some random web for their info. without outside help it is the most difficult to start out. yet if you introduce help from the outside then it becomes more simpler. sure dev's haven't kept on the balancing bit but how do you expect a group of dev to know everything about the game and expect to know which bits of coding to tweak fast enough to stamp out an overly used build within a short amount of work time.

You don't, making a good game is hard work and it isn't just going to fall into your hands out of wishful thinking. Likewise making and maintaing game balance is not going to just fall into ones hands, you have to work at it, persistently, until you find a right stride and then stick with it the best you can. The only reason balance has fallen so far by the wayside for Warframe lately is because DE has outright forgone trying to maintain balance for seemingly the last two years, which they acknowledge they are guilty of doing, and then they just keep putting the task off time and time again in favor of major content drops because they think it'd step on their steam. It's a hole of DE owns making that they've repeated that behavior so long thinking it wouldn't get too bad and then wound up in the state we are in, and its only DE who can dig themselves back out because players definitely aren't going to rebalance the game on their own, they literally cannot. 

 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I can say after 1.2 k hours in tera while the dungeons may not be hard they are still difficult.

i can say that after 2k hours in between D1-D2 a strike or raid with max gear and the current best gear in the game and it’ll still be a challenge.

Again, what is the difference between them and us? We don't know such a thing as power limit so tell me, do you prefer to have our power taken away just to be some suits that can't take more than 10 bullet just to have "challenge"?

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10 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Fixing changing or impmenting more enemies to counter massive damage 

Like nox where he takes little to no damage if not shot at the head or wolf? People cry "it's too hard" or "bad design"

10 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

capping dammage possibly not just for players 

So you can't go beyond the limits? See how people cry it's an unfair nerf hammer from DE and start ringing the bell like it's the end of the world and see how your daikyu with riven no longer feeling strong

10 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

fixing the scaling of armor health and shields etc (but that’s beating a dead horse)

With how people claim they blast away and survive level 200+, you want them to have more armor/health/shields? Is that what you mean?

10 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

making better ai (but that’s beating another dead horse)

What makes better AI able to give you challenge when you have area damage skills and things like ignis wraith or arca plasmor?

10 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I went off on a tangent most players play for rewards and lately rewards haven’t been  the best.

Tell me, are you a player that play warframe for the gameplay or the rewards? Isn't this the nature of humans, only doing something if there's a reward behind it but at the same time don't really want to go through that length for the reward?

10 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

very little content in the game is engaging engaging and fun for people to do or locked behind a massive grind (orb)  many gamemodes or content dosent require you to be actively paying attention to the game or focused. 

You don't want difficult content, you actually want something engaging that can't be automated and looks like you don't even know what you really want and throwing the cliche saying of "challenge", "difficult" and "sustainable"

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11 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

You don't, making a good game is hard work and it isn't just going to fall into your hands out of wishful thinking. Likewise making and maintaing game balance is not going to just fall into ones hands, you have to work at it, persistently, until you find a right stride and then stick with it the best you can. The only reason balance has fallen so far by the wayside for Warframe lately is because DE has outright forgone trying to maintain balance for seemingly the last two years, which they acknowledge they are guilty of doing, and then they just keep putting the task off time and time again in favor of major content drops because they think it'd step on their steam. It's a hole of DE owns making that they've repeated that behavior so long thinking it wouldn't get too bad and then wound up in the state we are in, and its only DE who can dig themselves back out because players definitely aren't going to rebalance the game on their own, they literally cannot. 

 

then why does everyone act like it is so easy to fix some problems? they aren't the dev's so they don't know what is exactly possible. me included. sure there are some times where i was in the same boat as the people that complain but i am trying to work to improve myself.  

as soon as something doesn't meet to a players standards they cry out boring and blame the dev's for their plight when they are use a strategy that makes the game easier.  it was the players choice to go with a meta build so it was their choice to make the game easier for them. it is like setting a game to the easiest difficult and blaming the dev's for how easy their experience was when they where playing the game. what players need to do is go with a basic or average build and assess whether or a raise in difficulty is needed or not.  and then let DE fiddle with that, and then after that let DE fiddle with higher builds after that. the star chart at the moment doesn't have any room for high meta builds to go so why run a meta build in the star chart when an average build fits just fine.

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9 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

then why does everyone act like it is so easy to fix some problems? they aren't the dev's so they don't know what is exactly possible. me included. sure there are some times where i was in the same boat as the people that complain but i am trying to work to improve myself.  

as soon as something doesn't meet to a players standards they cry out boring and blame the dev's for their plight when they are use a strategy that makes the game easier.  it was the players choice to go with a meta build so it was their choice to make the game easier for them. it is like setting a game to the easiest difficult and blaming the dev's for how easy their experience was when they where playing the game. what players need to do is go with a basic or average build and assess whether or a raise in difficulty is needed or not.  and then let DE fiddle with that, and then after that let DE fiddle with higher builds after that. the star chart at the moment doesn't have any room for high meta builds to go so why run a meta build in the star chart when an average build fits just fine.

not everyone does, and people can be wrong, or over exaggerate. that said just because people aren't devs doesn't mean they can't know anything about game design, critical thinking is a gift we are all capable of utilizing and many people have experience with gaming even if they don't pursue it as a profession and that does allow insight/comprehension. 

and players shouldn't have to avoid utilizing the tools of the game to have an adequate experience as I noted in a previous response. that is not only poor balancing, but wasteful management of game functions that took time and money to develop in the first place which can reflect poorly on the overall experience aka poor game design. most games pursue game balance for a reason, it isn't a standard just because most dev teams are extra charitable and willing to go the extra mile, it impacts the experience, heavily.  

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